Millinex's garters that cross my hands.

[Millinex]

I'm given a myriad of snakes every year from people who would really rather kill them, areas being bulldozed, handed to me because it was found in the house. All sorts of things bring snakes into my hands. The first of the season is this female:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/CapAnt53/DSCN5119.jpg

She's about 2 foot long, and within 5 minutes of being home was more than willing to devour 2 live hopper mice. Most of these animals I end up feeding to a solid weight, making sure are in good health, and get sold to people who are looking for a great starter snake.
Most re-released snakes do not make it, so I'd rather them go to someone as pets, where they have a solid home/food than a high chance of death.

I'm keeping her in a 1x1 tub with a small box hide and a water dish, she's doing great, siting in her hide on her heat pad digesting her meal without moving so much as a muscle in 24 hours.

[infernalis]

Good for you for doing this.

Don't you think she would be happier in a nicely decorated tank:D

[Millinex]

Good for you for doing this.

Don't you think she would be happier in a nicely decorated tank:D

I'm moving the monitor out of the 4x2 display cage this week. I'm really REALLY tempted to put her inside of it, decorate it, the whole works.. Just to prove a point.. She will sit there in the hide under the heat pad just like every other snake. I'd rather use my space for something that will use it's cage, like the ever hungry pine snake.

[infernalis]

Speaking of space, I just had a 4 foot by 4 foot pre-framed picture window given to me.

My black racer would probably use every inch of a 4x4x4 cube cage.

[Millinex]

Speaking of space, I just had a 4 foot by 4 foot pre-framed picture window given to me.

My black racer would probably use every inch of a 4x4x4 cube cage.

I can fully say with all honesty my pine snake would use every inch of the 7x4x4 my asian water monitor is kept in. I say this because even after feeding her a jumbo rat the size of a squirrel, she still is after more food within a day, it's impossible to fill that snake.

As for a racer, I highly doubt it, I'd probably put something that needs it in there, like a lizard species, or a pit.

-Mike

[brain]

Excuse the detour. Love the fence lizard on your site. I haven't seen one in years. I take it they are WC?

[Millinex]

Excuse the detour. Love the fence lizard on your site. I haven't seen one in years. I take it they are WC?
Indeed they are, probably one of the best possible easy captive lizards available, everyone I sell these to loves them.

-Mike

[RedSidedSPR]

Good for you for doing this.

Don't you think she would be happier in a nicely decorated tank:D

here we go again:rolleyes:

[brain]

Indeed they are, probably one of the best possible easy captive lizards available, everyone I sell these to loves them.

I use to catch them house them (until mom found out about them:( as a kid growing up in Marin County CA.
Those were the days also where I could get a SF Garter. Ahhh youth :cool:

[RedSidedSPR]

I use to catch them house them (until mom found out about them:( as a kid growing up in Marin County CA.
Those were the days also where I could get a SF Garter. Ahhh youth :cool:

I have a lot of fence lizards near my house. Never kept one, though.

were the SF garters still illegal to keep?

[guidofatherof5]

Federal Endangered Species since 1969;)

[Millinex]

We have these guys running all over hell here, same with prairie racerunners (which I haven't yet kept), very fun to keep and watch.

-Mike

[brain]

Wow what a reminder Steve …. 69’ I was … holy c--- I’m that old.:(

[Spankenstyne]

All silliness aside I do think that you're selling your Thamnophis short. All of mine are at least as active as my Pits & use all the space I provide. Hopefully you give that big cage an honest attempt, you'll probably be surprised.

At any rate good on you for taking in the unwanted.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Federal Endangered Species since 1969;)

It's ashamed that we can't keep them ( SAN FRANCISO GARTERS) as long as they are captive bred and you have a paper trail to prove it like they do with gila monsters. They are just so beautiful and we can't even admire that. I heard a story one time about some zoo who had some that had babies and they euthanized the babies because they could not sell or give them to anyone. Sorry to get off topic.:confused:

[Millinex]

All silliness aside I do think that you're selling your Thamnophis short. All of mine are at least as active as my Pits & use all the space I provide. Hopefully you give that big cage an honest attempt, you'll probably be surprised.

At any rate good on you for taking in the unwanted.
No, I do not. Every garter I've ever kept, raised, bred, etc will behave just like 99% of snakes in captivity, and sit under the hide on the warm spot, only coming out when hungry.

I've kept garters in everything from tubs, to 5x2.5x2.5 enclosures, the result is always the same regardless. I would rather see an animal like a pit or monitor use it, than a garter waste it.

-Mike

[guidofatherof5]

My garters are just the opposite of what you described. Very active.
Sure they do spend time in their hides but once I enter the room they come out. Even if they have just been fed.
I can tell you if garter snakes acted like most other snakes(as you described, hiding until hungry) I would probably not keep them.
I find garters to be ever engaging and interactive. Curious about everything in their surrounding. For me the bigger the enclosure the better.
They make good use of all the space I give them. I only wish I could give them more.
Just my experience ;)

[ConcinusMan]

were the SF garters still illegal to keep?

I highly doubt that. I think they've been protected since '67 Steve. Then they later made the federally endangered list.


All silliness aside I do think that you're selling your Thamnophis short. .

Constantly and consistently.:rolleyes: Case in point:



Most re-released snakes do not make it

That statement perplexes me to no end. Why would you say such a thing. I am curious. Is it because snakes somehow forget how to be a snake after being in captivity? I'm willing to bet even a captive born and raised adult would survive just fine if released. How would you know if your re-released snakes survived or not? Can you offer any research papers that conclude that they don't make it? That's a load of bull. Still, nothing wrong with finding them homes either.

[brain]

I agree Steve about the increased activity and curiosity. I place all my garters in the larger Eco-T’s (18x18x24 out from a ten gl.) the other day and the T.s. fitchi went straight to the top.

And the T.radixes seem to poke their heads out as soon as I open the door to the room.

[brain]

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//723/medium/20110511_2.JPG

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//723/medium/20110511_19.JPG

[Stefan-A]

That statement perplexes me to no end. Why would you say such a thing.
Perhaps because it's true. Translocated snakes are much more active than native, undisturbed snakes and frequently starve or stress themselves to death, if they don't get themselves killed by predators or run over on roads. Snakes also tend to return to familiar dens and without one, they tend to improvise and fail.

Germano, J.M. & Bishop P.J. (2008). Suitability of Amphibians and Reptiles for Translocation. Conservation Biology, 23, (1), 7-15.

Mullin, S. J., Seigel, R. A. (2009). Snakes: Ecology and Conservation. New York: Cornell Univerity Press.

[Millinex]

My garters are just the opposite of what you described. Very active.
Sure they do spend time in their hides but once I enter the room they come out. Even if they have just been fed.
I can tell you if garter snakes acted like most other snakes(as you described, hiding until hungry) I would probably not keep them.
I find garters to be ever engaging and interactive. Curious about everything in their surrounding. For me the bigger the enclosure the better.
They make good use of all the space I give them. I only wish I could give them more.
Just my experience ;)
In 15 years of keeping multiple species, I have never witnessed this nor seen any difference in these guys vs most snakes available.


That statement perplexes me to no end. Why would you say such a thing. I am curious. Is it because snakes somehow forget how to be a snake after being in captivity? I'm willing to bet even a captive born and raised adult would survive just fine if released. How would you know if your re-released snakes survived or not? Can you offer any research papers that conclude that they don't make it? That's a load of bull. Still, nothing wrong with finding them homes either.
Actually, there was a paper on it that I may or may not find the time to dig up, mostly for reasons Stefan mentioned. So it isn't a load of bull either, it's based on scientific facts.


Perhaps because it's true. Translocated snakes are much more active than native, undisturbed snakes and frequently starve or stress themselves to death, if they don't get themselves killed by predators or run over on roads. Snakes also tend to return to familiar dens and without one, they tend to improvise and fail.
Indeed ^

[RedSidedSPR]

You know, garters aren't gonna be active and healthy if you're not keeping them well... And in my opinion, plastic tubs with no heat or light, and with no objects in the tub aren't the best homes. Garters aren't gonna be very active if:

1. They can't see anything
2. No heat and light
3. Nothing to do, no one to see.

I could go on but...

[guidofatherof5]

In 15 years of keeping multiple species, I have never witnessed this nor seen any difference in these guys vs most snakes available.


You are welcome to visit the Ranch anytime(unless I'm asleep) and see for yourself. Amazing they are.
Guest are always welcome.;)

[infernalis]

it's based on scientific facts.

Isn't amazing how many people challenge this.

[Millinex]

You know, garters aren't gonna be active and healthy if you're not keeping them well... And in my opinion, plastic tubs with no heat or light, and with no objects in the tub aren't the best homes. Garters aren't gonna be very active if:

1. They can't see anything
2. No heat and light
3. Nothing to do, no one to see.

I could go on but...
Not keeping them well? Again all my animals are eating extremely well, handle-able, perfect health. I really would debate "keeping them well" to the ends of the earth with you.

1. They can see, it's not always dark in a tub, light goes through them, they are clear.
2. The room is kept at a solid 80+ degrees, more than enough for a garter snake.
3. They are snakes, they don't need anything to do, or people to see. Most snakes first instinct is to run from people


You are welcome to visit the Ranch anytime(unless I'm asleep) and see for yourself. Amazing they are.
Guest are always welcome.;)
If I get out that way perhaps. I've used every possible caging imaginable for garters. 4x2s 5x2s, 55s, 20s, tubs, result has always been the same for me.

[ConcinusMan]

Well when you don't use heat or adequate lighting, day/night cycle then yeah, they're just going to sit there. My snakes are quite active and inquisitive. It's one of the things I love about garters. In spite of what you think, they need to have stimulation and activity or their muscles get stiff and they just go to mush. I even go so far as to take them out of their enclosures periodically and let them "run" on the lawn to keep them in shape.

[Millinex]

Well when you don't use heat or adequate lighting, day/night cycle then yeah, they're just going to sit there. My snakes are quite active and inquisitive. It's one of the things I love about garters. In spite of what you think, they need to have stimulation and activity or their muscles get stiff and they just go to mush.
You do not need any extra lighting short of a window/overhead room light for garter snakes. Anything else is a waste and not needed. I'm not sure what kind of "heat" you're talking about. However if the room is kept at 80, it's more than enough for a garter snake to do just fine in, in fact this is the temperature I find MOST snakes active in the wild here. Period.

This really makes me want to set up a tub, and a well decorated aquarium, just to prove a point that the snake will do the exact same behavior- the one that s pre-programmed into it's brain. Too bad the monitor has the big cage, and until he moves I won't be putting her in there..

[ConcinusMan]

You do not need any extra lighting short of a window/overhead room light for garter snakes. Anything else is a waste and not needed. I'm not sure what kind of "heat" you're talking about. However if the room is kept at 80


There you have it. No distinct day/night cycle, no lighting. It's no wonder you don't see what we're talking about and it's no wonder your snakes just sit there. Sure, they'll stay alive, but will they won't live. And another thing, if you provided the proper heat and gradient you would find out that garter snakes for the most part, most of the time, seek a core temp of around 86 degrees during the day. They also prefer temperatures cooler than 80 for sleeping and sometimes when they are opaque. Giving them no choice but to live with 80 degrees and they can't seek cooler or warmer as they see fit, is poor husbandry. Not much point in moving around if the next spot is going to be exactly like the one they're sitting in.

Without the light, day/night cycle, and a wide gradient, snakes garters get "depressed" and just sit there. You've raised sceloporous lizards so you should know what I'm talking about. You wouldn't dare treat them that way now would you? Look at the way they just "light up" and get all active with proper lighting and day/night cycle. Garters are the same way. Keep your lizards at flat 80 degrees and nothing but ambient light from a window and watch what happens. They get listless, inactive, and just sit there.

[Millinex]

There you have it. No distinct day/night cycle, no lighting. It's no wonder you don't see what we're talking about and it's no wonder your snakes just sit there. Sure, they'll stay alive, but will they won't live. And another thing, if you provided the proper heat and gradient you would find out that garter snakes for the most part, most of the time, seek a core temp of around 86 degrees during the day. They also prefer temperatures cooler than 80 for sleeping and sometimes when they are opaque. Giving them no choice but to live with 80 degrees and they can't seek cooler or warmer as they see fit, is poor husbandry. Not much point in moving around if the next spot is going to be exactly like the one they're sitting in.
I'm going to say it again. SNAKES DO NOT NEED OVERHEAD LIGHTS. Period. I've kept snakes OUTSIDE in built enclosures. Same thing, they don't spend all day out cruising IN THE WILD THEY WOULD BE EATEN.

Maybe all your snakes are the ones with garbage genetics, the genetics that say "herp derp its ok to stand in the open and get eaten by predators", mine have the natural ones, intelligent ones, that say "hide under this damn rock so I stay alive".

Best part of this all. The room peaks at around 90 in the summers, there are some nights where it goes down to 60, because I keep the window open and sleep there (lol who sleeps at 80 degrees). Clearly, because it's not a fancy tank with special lights (LOL) I must not know anything.

Oh, and so you know. I keep my 5 lizards in a clear rubbermaid next to the window in the 80 degree room. They breed and act the same way as if i put an expensive light and special "day night cycles" LOL

[ConcinusMan]

Perhaps because it's true. Translocated snakes are much more active than native, undisturbed snakes and frequently starve or stress themselves to death, if they don't get themselves killed by predators or run over on roads. Snakes also tend to return to familiar dens and without one, they tend to improvise and fail.

Germano, J.M. & Bishop P.J. (2008). Suitability of Amphibians and Reptiles for Translocation. Conservation Biology, 23, (1), 7-15.

Mullin, S. J., Seigel, R. A. (2009). Snakes: Ecology and Conservation. New York: Cornell Univerity Press.

I was speaking mainly of releasing snakes back where you found them. I know this is not always possible or a good idea depending on the circumstances. I don't know man, I've released snakes from other areas right into my back yard before. I even did it with lizards. I continued to see those animals time and time again, year after year. They did fine. This is of course, before I "knew better". I wouldn't do it now, even though they did fine.

[kibakiba]

Then do it, I'm sure some of us would like to see the point you're trying to make. My snakes are always, and I mean always, on the move. I would like to see the results

[Millinex]

I was speaking mainly of releasing snakes back where you found them. I know this is not always possible or a good idea depending on the circumstances. I don't know man, I've released snakes from other areas right into my back yard before. I even did it with lizards. I continued to see those animals time and time again, year after year. They did fine. This is of course, before I "knew better". I wouldn't do it now, even though they did fine.
The owners DONT WANT THEM back in that area, it's either I take them, or they get killed. Not a rough judgement call in my book.

As for releasing into your back yard, man congrats, far inside the city in a semi enclosed area safe from predators. I don't see many hawks/coyotes/foxes in my backyard now do I? I also don't see other snakes.

[Millinex]

Then do it, I'm sure some of us would like to see the point you're trying to make. My snakes are always, and I mean always, on the move. I would like to see the results
Pay for it, and the space it would take in my house ;)

[ConcinusMan]

The owners DONT WANT THEM back in that area, it's either I take them, or they get killed. Not a rough judgement call in my book.

As for releasing into your back yard, man congrats, far inside the city in a semi enclosed area safe from predators. I don't see many hawks/coyotes/foxes in my backyard now do I?

Point taken. I completely understand. I saved a few northwesterns from the bulldozer last fall. Their den and habitat is now completely destroyed. It was really just a fragment surrounded by urban development. There was really no right thing to do with them other than find homes. They're with Steve now. Safe and sound.

Funny you should mention wildlife in the back yard. I do live in a highly urban area but there used to be woodland and open space to the east. It was basically just a gap between the cities of Vancouver, WA and Camas, WA. Never had a problem with coyotes or racoons until that gap was eliminated. Now we have urban living racoons and coyotes everywhere. Every now and then, I surprise a racoon in my back yard. They've worn a trail through my yard. They like to wash bones and junk in my bird bath, that they've gotten from people's trash and my dogs are often finding things they left. That's rather annoying.

[kibakiba]

No thanks. I don't support how you treat your animals, personally. I would rather use my money to get a larger, more decorated tank for my snakes. Thanks.
It would just be interesting to see a garter snake just laying there. I have 12 of them and every one of them explores.

[Millinex]

No thanks. I don't support how you treat your animals, personally. I would rather use my money to get a larger, more decorated tank for my snakes. Thanks.
It would just be interesting to see a garter snake just laying there. I have 12 of them and every one of them explores.
I treat mine differently. You have some delusion that they are "happy" or "sad" when in reality they don't care. My snakes are all just as healthy and "happy" as yours in fancy cages.

Your snakes explore because of bad husbandry, constantly searching for somewhere better to hide/lay and for food, because you probably don't feed enough.

[ConcinusMan]

I treat mine differently. You have some delusion that they are "happy" or "sad" when in reality they don't care. My snakes are all just as healthy and "happy" as yours in fancy cages.

Your snakes explore because of bad husbandry, constantly searching for somewhere better to hide/lay and for food, because you probably don't feed enough.

Flat out wrong. When you can come back and say you had garter snakes live for 18 and even 21 years with this husbandry of yours,(I have) maybe I'll start to believe you. I highly doubt that a snake that grows from 7 inches to 25 in less than a year, and sheds every 4-5 weeks, is not being fed enough.

[Millinex]

Flat out wrong. When you can come back and say you had garter snakes live for 18 and even 21 years with this husbandry of yours, maybe I'll start to believe you.

Don't have the time, nor the care to devote that much effort into proving a point to you. By the time I've kept a particular snake around for that long, most of this will be long in the past.

Although, I think you're "Flat out wrong".

-Mike

[ConcinusMan]

Garter snakes are naturally active and inquisitive animals. You're actually expecting people to believe that the only reason they would be moving around is if they were somehow uncomfortable or hungry. That's like saying a predator only hunts when it's hungry and nothing could be farther from the truth.

That statement, along with the fact that you keep insisting they are not active and inquisitive by nature, and by nature should be perfectly content to sit in a tub not moving, only reinforces that you do not know what the heck you are talking about. Your credibility fades with every statement you make.

[Sonya610]

Maybe all your snakes are the ones with garbage genetics, the genetics that say "herp derp its ok to stand in the open and get eaten by predators", mine have the natural ones, intelligent ones, that say "hide under this damn rock so I stay alive".

Uhhh....yeah I guess that applies to all the many people that state their Garters are inquisitive and frequently roaming about their tanks; their snakes must all have "garbage genetics".

I can hardly believe you said that.

[Millinex]

Uhhh....yeah I guess all the people that state their Garters are inquisitive and frequently roaming about their tanks have "garbage genetics".

I can hardly believe you said that.
It goes against and flys completely in the face of what we understand of basic survival instincts. Are you saying a snake who is active outside has an equal chance of being eaten by a predator as one who spends it's time hunkered down hiding from said predators?

If you honestly believe this is the case I really can't help you any farther, as you clearly have learned nothing about biology, ecosystems, or genetics.

[Stefan-A]

Are you saying a snake who is active outside has an equal chance of being eaten by a predator as one who spends it's time hunkered down hiding from said predators?
No, but its chances of finding food, water and mates are far greater, than if it spends its time hunkered down. It's a trade-off and most snakes are going to land somewhere near the middle of the spectrum, while a few will represent extremes. Maintaining a high metabolism and growth rate requires exposure to potential predators.

Short term survival is just one aspect and merely focusing on that, is a huge mistake.

[Millinex]

However, would you agree that a well fed and maintained snake never has to get out and move around and look for food/water? Maybe mates, I see this in male individuals around breeding season sometimes, but again, once put with the female, they have all they need right there, and never have reason to move.

[BUSHSNAKE]

i surely wouldnt take your word on anything related to Garter Snakes...ever! and its obvious no one else here is going to either...get a clue ok...what are garbage genetics? where do these come from?

[Spankenstyne]

Your snakes explore because of bad husbandry, constantly searching for somewhere better to hide/lay and for food, because you probably don't feed enough.

Then I suppose the inverse can be said about yours, that they sit like lumps all the time because they're overfed & obese. ;)

We know that garters naturally spend portions of the day active & hunting, moreso than many other species of snakes. You don't tend to find garters in the wild by flipping boards like other less active snakes, they're usually found either basking in the open or actively moving through habitat. If you were talking about an ambush predator that waits hiding in a hole for prey (like ball pythons for example) then I'd agree with most of what you're saying, but these snakes aren't known for being sedentary, they hunt. While you certainly can keep many species alive and reproducing in a small box it also doesn't mean it's better than merely adequate. Most snake species will in fact do just fine this way because they are as you describe, but in my experience garters aren't of that mold.

I find it bizarre that you understand that Pituophis are active animals that will utilize cage space but can't comprehend that Thamnophis will behave much the same way. Consider also that they have fast metabolisms and that the bulk of their natural diet is quickly digested (amphibians, fish, etc) unlike a heavy rodent diet of many other species & they will need to be hunting more often.

I haven't responded much before because I believe that you're probably just having some fun at others expense here to get them riled up, but if you're not then by all means keep doing what you're doing if it seems to be working for you. I also have some experience in this hobby (nearly 25 years) with hundreds of different animals of dozens of different species and I have found all of the Thamnophis I keep to be very inquisitive and active. Very much in behaviour like the Pituophis I keep.

One last thought also though is that if you're dealing mainly with WC animals then perhaps the stress of being kept in an enclosure is also a factor why you're seeing less activity? Anything WC I've ever kept I have found to be much more prone to hiding at the drop of a hat and taking much longer to become used to human activity, if ever.

Just my $.02

[ConcinusMan]

I treat mine differently. You have some delusion that they are "happy" or "sad" when in reality they don't care.

You can't know that. Personally, I'm perceptive enough to see the subtle behaviors, and know my snakes as individuals enough to know when they aren't "happy", or comfortable, just aren't feeling well, or if something is bothering them. The type of activity I am talking about is perfectly normal and natural. I know the difference between that and a snake that is restless because it is uncomfortable.

[Stefan-A]

However, would you agree that a well fed and maintained snake never has to get out and move around and look for food/water? Maybe mates, I see this in male individuals around breeding season sometimes, but again, once put with the female, they have all they need right there, and never have reason to move.
No, as a matter of fact I don't agree with that. In fact, I'd call a snake that's kept fed to the point of lethargy severely overfed. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if they started showing some of the same symptoms overfed and sedentary humans do. Muscle and bone atrophy, for example.

[ConcinusMan]

It's true Millinex. If your garters are that sedentary, then something is wrong. That is not normal behavior for them. Sure, there's times when they just want to hide, digest a meal, or rest but they shouldn't be like that a majority of the time.

[Millinex]

i surely wouldnt take your word on anything related to Garter Snakes...ever! and its obvious no one else here is going to either...get a clue ok...what are garbage genetics? where do these come from?
Don't take my word. It comes down to the fact that even one of the most reputable breeders of garter snakes keeps his individuals in a tub/rack system. Does he post about it openly? Nope, but no one bashes him for it do they?

If someone on the internet takes my advice on keeping garter snakes is not my concern, I could care less. Literally, your opinion is meaningless to me. Garters can be kept in racks just as much as other snakes, and I will continue to keep them in this manner with no problems, get a clue ok.


Then I suppose the inverse can be said about yours, that they sit like lumps all the time because they're overfed & obese.
Mine maintain a healthy weight, are not obese or overfed, I can take pictures of any of my tub-raised snakes at any time if you'd like?


We know that garters naturally spend portions of the day active & hunting, moreso than many other species of snakes.
I actually find more bullsnakes, racers, coachwhips, rattlesnakes, corns, rats all more active than garters in my area. In fact, almost everywhere I've been, I find more garters under debri than out in the open like many of the 6' + bulls I Find.


You don't tend to find garters in the wild by flipping boards like other less active snakes, they're usually found either basking in the open or actively moving through habitat.


If you were talking about an ambush predator that waits hiding in a hole for prey (like ball pythons for example) then I'd agree with most of what you're saying, but these snakes aren't known for sitting still for being sedentary, they hunt. While you certainly can keep many species alive and reproducing in a small box it also doesn't mean it's better than merely adequate. Most snake species will in fact do just fine this way because they are as you describe, but in my experience garters aren't of that mold. Again, in my experience this is not the case with garters at all. Again, a difference of opinions, when all of this started, I never bashed people who kept their animals in big decorated cages, until they decided to start bashing me for keeping in tubs and saying I was "neglectful".


I find it bizarre that you understand that Pituophis are active animals that will utilize cage space but can't comprehend that Thamnophis will behave much the same way. Consider also that they have fast metabolisms and that the bulk of their natural diet is quickly digested (amphibians, fish, etc) unlike a heavy rodent diet of many other species & they will need to be hunting more often.
Pits are hands down more active than garters, I'm not 100% sure the reason, however it's just what I've observed. My pits are bottomless black holes who eat anything and everything. Although, in captivity how many of us simulate the natural diet of fish/frogs of a garter snake? I feed rodents, which take longer to digest and are far easier to provide on a large scale.


I haven't responded much before because I believe that you're probably just having some fun at others expense here to get them riled up, but if you're not then by all means keep doing what you're doing if it seems to be working for you. I also have some experience in this hobby (nearly 25 years) with hundreds of different animals of dozens of different species and I have found all of the Thamnophis I keep to be very inquisitive and active. Very much in behaviour like the Pituophis I keep.
I'm not trying to rile people up, it's what I believe and what I've done for years successfully, and I will maintain that my method is just as good as anyone elses methods.


One last thought also though is that if you're dealing mainly with WC animals then perhaps the stress of being kept in an enclosure is also a factor why you're seeing less activity? Anything WC I've ever kept I have found to be much more prone to hiding at the drop of a hat and taking much longer to become used to human activity, if ever.

Just my $.02
I've kept captive bred and wild caught animals. Even after the f2 generation of my wandering garters, I still never had the same activity level of my pits.


You can't know that. Personally, I'm perceptive enough to see the subtle behaviors, and know my snakes as individuals enough to know when they aren't "happy", or comfortable, just aren't feeling well, or if something is bothering them.
You cant know my animals are not healthy just because they are in bins and kept as such. The garter still hasn't moved 2 days later, man I'm doing something wrong for sure.. Oh wait she's just digesting her meal and enjoying an easy life.

-Mike

[d_virginiana]

Before I say anything about the enclosure thing: Regardless, you seem to take care of your snakes, so I'm sure she's in a far better situation than if you hadn't taken her in, and that's a really cool thing to do.

I don't know if any of you have read Temple Grandin's work on animal husbandry/neuroscience, but she actually talks quite a bit about this sort of thing. In fact, there's an entire section in her book "Animals Make Us Human" [GREAT READ!] about zoo-kept exotics and this exact debate. One of the main points she makes in her research is that animals, regardless of their level of intelligence, have several basic 'drives' that are hardwired in (in higher functioning mammals we would say 'emotions'). But her theory is that thwarting these hardwired drives causes unnatural and neurotic behavior in zoo animals. Even if the end goal (ie; food, sex, shelter) is supplied and the drive should be satisfied the urge to perform seeking behaviors associated with these things often is not.

My garter is in a fairly spartan enclosure, but it's large enough for him to move about should the desire strike. And it does. Typically one to two days after he's eaten, and more often when the seasons are changing (he's a room-temp snake, so he can pick up on seasonal cues). For awhile, he'll race around his cage and try his damnedest to push the top off. This sounds a LOT like a thwarted mating drive. Also, even though he has plenty of food, he will immediately come out to investigate what's going on if anything comes into the snake room. Yes, that might be a pre-programmed defense behavior instead of happiness/inquisitiveness, but it's still an urge that can be fulfilled, and when it is, the animal is less stressed. That doesn't sound like crappy genetics to me; he's doing what he's programmed to do.

[Millinex]

Before I say anything about the enclosure thing: Regardless, you seem to take care of your snakes, so I'm sure she's in a far better situation than if you hadn't taken her in, and that's a really cool thing to do.

I don't know if any of you have read Temple Grandin's work on animal husbandry/neuroscience, but she actually talks quite a bit about this sort of thing. In fact, there's an entire section in her book "Animals Make Us Human" [GREAT READ!] about zoo-kept exotics and this exact debate. One of the main points she makes in her research is that animals, regardless of their level of intelligence, have several basic 'drives' that are hardwired in (in higher functioning mammals we would say 'emotions'). But her theory is that thwarting these hardwired drives causes unnatural and neurotic behavior in zoo animals. Even if the end goal (ie; food, sex, shelter) is supplied and the drive should be satisfied the urge to perform seeking behaviors associated with these things often is not.

My garter is in a fairly spartan enclosure, but it's large enough for him to move about should the desire strike. And it does. Typically one to two days after he's eaten, and more often when the seasons are changing (he's a room-temp snake, so he can pick up on seasonal cues). For awhile, he'll race around his cage and try his damnedest to push the top off. This sounds a LOT like a thwarted mating drive. Also, even though he has plenty of food, he will immediately come out to investigate what's going on if anything comes into the snake room. Yes, that might be a pre-programmed defense behavior instead of happiness/inquisitiveness, but it's still an urge that can be fulfilled, and when it is, the animal is less stressed. That doesn't sound like crappy genetics to me; he's doing what he's programmed to do.
I actually own and have read the book as part of one of my classes, great read. I do my best to take care of my animals in the way I see fit. None are unhealthy, just because I keep them differently doesn't mean I neglect them.

As for your crappy genetics- no, not saying that per-say, if they have to desire to mate than the risk of predators is worth it to pass on genetics instinctively, however, once provided with that chance, and food/water they have no reason to move. Natural selection would automatically cull the individuals who spend more time "exploring for the hell of it", thus my "garbage genetics" comment.

-Mike

[Spankenstyne]

Here's an interesting pdf some might like to check out.

http://www.srd.alberta.ca/BiodiversityStewardship/SpeciesAtRisk/documents/SAR30-RedSidedGarterSnake.pdf

A few points of interest were that the newly relocated snakes in this study had a return rate to the introduced hibernaculum comparable to the resident population (30% to 32.5%), and that populations in Manitoba have been known to travel as far as 17.7km from their winter hibernaculum. The snakes up here are only above ground around 6 or so months of the year. Not a lot of time for sitting around ;)

[RedSidedSPR]

"They are snakes, they don't need anything to do, or people to see."

They do need something to do. It's actually important. And I never they need people to see.

"SNAKES DO NOT NEED OVERHEAD LIGHTS"

What. Ever.


Everything Richard has said is true. Everything you have said is VERY debatable.

[d_virginiana]

Let's see if I can get the quote thing right here...


I actually own and have read the book as part of one of my classes, great read. I do my best to take care of my animals in the way I see fit. None are unhealthy, just because I keep them differently doesn't mean I neglect them.

As for your crappy genetics- no, not saying that per-say, if they have to desire to mate than the risk of predators is worth it to pass on genetics instinctively, however, once provided with that chance, and food/water they have no reason to move. Natural selection would automatically cull the individuals who spend more time "exploring for the hell of it", thus my "garbage genetics" comment.


I certainly don't think that tub/rack method=neglect, and I believe your animals are probably nice and healthy (I clicked on the link in your signature, and looked at some of the pictures on that page and the animals all looked really good). I prefer a larger tank for mine because I like to look at him, but as long as a snake is healthy and well-kept I don't have a problem with any particular method.

I believe that sometimes animals behave illogically when the desire to perform a certain behavior is present, even though their circumstances make it unnecessary/pointless; like a neutered dog humping a stuffed animal, or a well-fed cat risking injury by hunting. It would be interesting to see how that played out in an intense natural selection scenario though, as there are benefits to both exploring and hiding. The exploratory snake is more likely to find good food and a mate (since there's no steady supply of these things in the wild and exploring to some degree is a must for survival) while the hiding snake is less likely to get itself eaten.

[Millinex]

"They are snakes, they don't need anything to do, or people to see."

They do need something to do. It's actually important. And I never they need people to see.

"SNAKES DO NOT NEED OVERHEAD LIGHTS"

What. Ever.


Everything Richard has said is true. Everything you have said is VERY debatable.
It isn't important, you all have one set way of thinking, and won't consider anything outside of your typical husbandry. I have several people who I've shown this to personally who have laughed hyserically at the thought of a snake having emotion or wanting to explore, because it's flat out dumb and wrong.

There are 0 snakes available today that need any sort of overhead heat light, does that mean keep them in the dark no, however heat lamps are worse for your snake than nothing at all. Show me research on a snake needing heat lights, and I'll link you 10 breeders who breed thousands of snakes a year who never use a single light.

-Mike

[ConcinusMan]

I certainly don't think that tub/rack method=neglect, and I believe your animals are probably nice and healthy

Ditto. I am only saying that the method is merely adequate and far from ideal.



Mine maintain a healthy weight, are not obese or overfed, I can take pictures of any of my tub-raised snakes at any time if you'd like?

How a snake looks in a picture is only a small fraction of what is needed to determine overall health and vitality. How they move, react, and behave is equally, if not more, important. You should know that.



You cant know my animals are not healthy just because they are in bins and kept as such. The garter still hasn't moved 2 days later, man I'm doing something wrong for sure.. Oh wait she's just digesting her meal and enjoying an easy life.


I agree. I cannot know that and as I said before, there is a time for resting and hiding in a garter snakes life. What I do know is that if you provided your garter snakes adequate room, a decent gradient, naturalistic spectrum and light intensity during the day, a regular day/night cycle, and don't overfeed them, that they certainly wouldn't sit in one spot doing nothing all the time. That I do know. I also know that lesurely moving around the enclosure, exploring, and inquisitiveness is not a sign that something is wrong. That is natural behavior for garter snakes. I also know it is not natural for them to hide 24/7 and be sedentary and not active. It's not natural. If they are doing that, they are merely surviving. Not living.


Show me research on a snake needing heat lights, and I'll link you 10 breeders who breed thousands of snakes a year who never use a single light.

-Mike

With albinos as the exception, show me a garter snake that doesn't utilize a basking light. Show me one that hesitates to bask in the sun in the wild. Show me one garter snake that is active and behaves normally without it. Can they merely survive without that? Sure. It's just not even close to a natural life.


It's clear that we've "ruffled each others' feathers" in these discussions/debates. Please Mike, don't take this too seriously or personally and resort to personal attacks. This is what gets threads locked. We can disagree and still be civil.

[Millinex]

Feel free to come see any of my tub raised individuals at anytime. They are just as good as any snake kept in a fancy cage. Go see my new post in the other forum for that haha. Hell, I'd go as far as to say my tub raised 7' northern pine is the largest in captivity, and she was raised in a 91qt tub her entire life.

I'm going to maintain what I think, however, generally when someone comes into my thread and tells me my husbandry is wrong, I get pretty annoyed. Considering none of my snakes are in bad health or have anything wrong with them, and all my customers are always 100% satisfied with their animals.

-Mike

[ConcinusMan]

I'm sure there are plenty of perfectly healthy human beings who live incarcerated their entire lives. Plenty of healthy chickens that live in a cage not much bigger than themselves. I'm pretty sure you can keep either of those animals "healthy" even if they are kept a few degrees cooler or warmer than what is comfortable for them. So what?

[Millinex]

Humans and chickens are both social thinking animals with cognitive abilities, big difference.

[Mommy2many]

I love chickens:D

[ConcinusMan]

Me too. Or rather, I like parts of them. For dinner.

Seriously though, I know what you mean. I've been around some pretty darn charming (live) chickens before.


Humans and chickens are both social thinking animals with cognitive abilities, big difference.

Mmmm Hmmm.:rolleyes:

[Mommy2many]

There are some darn charming chickens out there, aren't there?:D

[ConcinusMan]

Yuppers

[Mommy2many]

:D

[infernalis]

There are some darn charming chickens out there, aren't there?:D

Especially charming with eleven herbs and spices, a side of biscuits and mash taters.. yum.,

Robot Chicken is really Charming.

[Stefan-A]

Enough of this crap. And the bickering.

[ConcinusMan]

Robot Chicken is really Charming.

No one can resist his charm.

http://www.myfreewallpapers.net/cartoons/wallpapers/robot-chicken.jpg

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Enough of this crap. And the bickering.

I was just about to say the same thing! Enough is enough.

[Millinex]

Enough of this crap. And the bickering.
Don't need to tell me twice. Some of the crap I've seen here is insulting and stupid. These people are so close minded it drives me nuts.

I'm going to say this one time, and I'm done with all of this, including the forum. Some of the best breeders in the entire world keep their snakes in tubs. Scott, BHB, Ben Seigel, Tom Crutchfield, all employ a rack system. If you honestly believe you can not keep snakes well, and healthy, in a rack, despite the quality/numbers these people turn out, than you are a fool, and an idiot.

-Mike

[Stefan-A]

Don't let the door hit you in the *** on your way out.