6 garters for 10 dollars in paper [Archive]

Millinex

05-04-2011, 10:20 PM

There isn't much about any of this that is reasonable, especially when it results in the death of most of them.:mad:
Most old people I've talked to literally have 0 idea about snakes, or what to do with them, or anything like that. I've watched my girlfriends grandma literally reach in with a 7 foot cage aggressive pine snake. Now, take into account it's a 14 year old kid, probably with absolutely 0 experience, and probably thinks you can feed garters bugs. He probably did all sorts of things but had no idea how to take care of them properly.

Education would be more proper than any other option, as neither parties are being negligent on purpose. Anyone who feels the need to beat down a 14 year old kid, or a grandma, for a few snakes, is a truly disgusting individual.

gregmonsta

05-05-2011, 04:25 AM

guidofatherof5

05-05-2011, 05:49 AM

ConcinusMan

05-05-2011, 10:04 AM

A 14 year old doesn't need 6 snakes. They should have given the kid 1 and make sure that they could take care of it before sending off 5 extra. I feel bad for the snakes.

A 14 year old, when armed with a little knowledge of husbandry, is perfectly capable of properly caring for a few garter snakes. I was only 13 and I was keeping several WC CA Kings and gopher snakes up to 5 or 6 feet long. They thrived and grew. I had them for years.

They chose to husband these animals without living up to the responsibillities that come with it and caused suffering by doing so.
They should be educated by this experience in my opinion.

Exactly. The enemy here is ignorance and that can be just as deadly to a snake even if the keeper is 40. The age of this person is irrelevant. 14 is plenty old enough to carry the responsibility for a few garter snakes.

RedSidedSPR

05-05-2011, 10:08 AM

I'm with Richard. I hate it when idiots don't even TRY to know how to care for animals. If you get an animal, freakin' read about it!!! A 14 year old kid should know that!! What I really want to say wouldn't make it past the filters, so I'm done.

Millinex

05-05-2011, 11:06 AM

At any rate ... regardless of either being ill-informed ... I would want to see someone charged with neglect. They chose to husband these animals without living up to the responsibillities that come with it and caused suffering by doing so.
They should be educated by this experience in my opinion.
So you'd charge a 14 year old or an old lady with neglect? That's pretty sad in all honesty. You don't know the circumstances of the kid keeping them. For all you know he lived in a trailer park with no internet and no means to access the knowledge on how to care for them. For all you know he did his best with what he thought was correct, and is sitting there very upset because he has no idea what went wrong and why his pets are dead.

Man, that's why this world, and country is so far down the hole. Everyone whines and cries about each other, and wants everyone else charged and in jail for petty things.

Someone charged with neglect concerning a garter snake. No chance there.
Remember, it's a garter snake. In the eyes of most, not worth anything.
What a shame.
I agree with you Greg but It just won't happen. Not in this world, not at this time.:(
I'm angry with this whole situation. It repeats itself throughout this counrty on a daily basis.
Lack of education and a lack of caring are the big problem.
It's just a snake.:(
Exactly, education is lacking. You admit it yourself here, so why should someone be charged for not knowing any better? If anything its partially our fault for not educating BETTER, because if we had, maybe it wouldn't have happened.

A 14 year old, when armed with a little knowledge of husbandry, is perfectly capable of properly caring for a few garter snakes. I was only 13 and I was keeping several WC CA Kings and gopher snakes up to 5 or 6 feet long. They thrived and grew. I had them for years.
And you clearly had a love and interest in snakes, I also had many, from the time I was very young. Who's to say he's not just a 14 year old kid who thinks snakes are neat but had no intention of getting as far in depth as you. Maybe he had a small side interest in snakes while his main focus was football? Stop comparing this kid to you, because it's an awful comparison.

I'm with Richard. I hate it when idiots don't even TRY to know how to care for animals. If you get an animal, freakin' read about it!!! A 14 year old kid should know that!! What I really want to say wouldn't make it past the filters, so I'm done.
Not exactly a lot of books, and who knows if he ever used the computer. Who knows what he had going on in his life. You don't know the circumstances of the individual.

I'm going to be blunt, because that's just how I am:
We don't know this individual, his grandma, the circumstances, how the snakes where found in the first place, any of that. All we have is " some snakes died in the hands of a 14 year old kid ". The fact that some of you want criminal charges based solely on that information is repulsive. You are the type of people that probably run off with a lawsuit on mcdonalds when you spill the hot coffee claiming "omg I didn't know it was hot", when in reality "no ****, it's coffee!". This is what America is becoming, and it's repulsive.

As for the comment about kicking the spit out of them. You are a sick individual. Any grown man who feels the need to kick the spit out of a woman, or children, is a trash member of this society. Where I come from, you mention that kind of behavior, and we put you in the hospital, and that's just what I'd do to you for such nonsense.

Stefan-A

05-05-2011, 11:17 AM

You are a sick individual.
Watch it.

guidofatherof5

05-05-2011, 11:22 AM

Someone charged with neglect concerning a garter snake. No chance there.
Remember, it's a garter snake. In the eyes of most, not worth anything.
What a shame.
I agree with you Greg but It just won't happen. Not in this world, not at this time.:(
I'm angry with this whole situation. It repeats itself throughout this country on a daily basis.
Lack of education and a lack of caring are the big problem.
It's just a snake.:(

Exactly, education is lacking. You admit it yourself here, so why should someone be charged for not knowing any better? If anything its partially our fault for not educating BETTER, because if we had, maybe it wouldn't have happened.

Ignorance is no excuse. Won't fly in court and shouldn't fly in life.

I believe some of the comments made by others were in the heat of the moment and not what people would actually do or want.(just my opinion)
We all could do a better job getting the word out. I'm sure many of us do what we can, when we can.;)

Millinex

05-05-2011, 11:30 AM

Watch it.
You're saying someone who wants to "kick the spit" out of a 14 year old/grandma isn't? I'm going to stand by what I said 100%, just because it's the internet doesn't mean it's acceptable to say those things. Guess what, people who say that kind of garbage would NEVER say it in real life, because there would be a line of people ready to fix that attitude real damn quick.

Stefan-A

05-05-2011, 11:46 AM

You're saying someone who wants to "kick the spit" out of a 14 year old/grandma isn't? I'm going to stand by what I said 100%, just because it's the internet doesn't mean it's acceptable to say those things. Guess what, people who say that kind of garbage would NEVER say it in real life, because there would be a line of people ready to fix that attitude real damn quick.
No, I'm saying you should choose your words a bit more carefully. Disapproval can be expressed without insults.

infernalis

05-05-2011, 11:51 AM

No, I'm saying you should choose your words a bit more carefully. Disapproval can be expressed without insults.

I have to concur.

One thing I have noticed is you do seem to have a rather aggressive style of writing. I have personally abandoned a couple conversations because of it.

"You have tried the stick, now use a carrot" :cool:

ConcinusMan

05-05-2011, 12:17 PM

So you'd charge a 14 year old or an old lady with neglect? That's what it is by definition.:rolleyes: Should they be charged? Not really my call. Like you said, we don't know all the circumstances but regardless, animal abuse by neglect is what it is when someone takes in an animal, doesn't care for it properly, and it dies or suffers greatly as a result. And just for the record, I'm not actually in the habit of kicking the spit out of anyone. It's just talk to express my anger. I am actually a very non-violent person. I've never acted in a violent way in my life, save once or twice where it was self defense. BTW, "old ladies" are charged with animal neglect and abuse every day. Should we stop doing it because they are old?

why should someone be charged for not knowing any better?

Because ignorance is not an excuse in the eyes of the law. A sane human being with all his/her faculties in place is responsible for what he/she does. Ignorance of how to take care of the animals is not an excuse.

Stop comparing this kid to you, because it's an awful comparison.

The only comparison I am making here is to drive home the point that a 14 year old is perfectly capable of handling the responsibility. His other interests (a.k.a. "football") are irrelevant.

d_virginiana

05-05-2011, 01:47 PM

The only comparison I am making here is to drive home the point that a 14 year old is perfectly capable of handling the responsibility.

Along this line, I got my Houdini when I was 10, and the only reason he's still around (nearly 11 years later!!) is because I got VERY lucky. ie: Our walmart didn't stock red wigglers, and when he wouldn't eat crickets for a long time (the petstore person actually told us they would eat crickets) we got lucky that the local bait store minnows are a species that isn't poisonous to them.

I mean, snakes aren't exactly easy to monitor; they don't act a lot differently when they're unwell, they don't have regular eating habits, and most vets have no clue what to do with them (I know that you can monitor a snake's eating and behavior and that there are great herp vets out there, I'm just saying an inexperienced kid probably wouldn't be able to do that or have access to one).

I totally agree that situations like this are very sad and people should be more educated before getting a pet, but I don't think this kid or his grandma were bad people or that they should be charged with anything, simply because I'm aware of how easy it can be to think you're providing correct care for a snake and end up accidentally harming it. Also, he was getting rid of them dirt cheap, so maybe he realized he had no clue what to do and was trying to do the right thing?
idk. I just like to assume the best in people until I have a really good reason to think otherwise.

RedSidedSPR

05-05-2011, 02:20 PM

I'm with Rich, the guy should read about the animals he's keeping. It's just ignorance and laziness to fix it. He probably didn't care in the first place, or he would have read up one 'em.

RedSidedSPR

05-05-2011, 02:21 PM

Along this line, I got my Houdini when I was 10, and the only reason he's still around (nearly 11 years later!!) is because I got VERY lucky. ie: Our walmart didn't stock red wigglers, and when he wouldn't eat crickets for a long time (the petstore person actually told us they would eat crickets) we got lucky that the local bait store minnows are a species that isn't poisonous to them.

I mean, snakes aren't exactly easy to monitor; they don't act a lot differently when they're unwell, they don't have regular eating habits, and most vets have no clue what to do with them (I know that you can monitor a snake's eating and behavior and that there are great herp vets out there, I'm just saying an inexperienced kid probably wouldn't be able to do that or have access to one).

I totally agree that situations like this are very sad and people should be more educated before getting a pet, but I don't think this kid or his grandma were bad people or that they should be charged with anything, simply because I'm aware of how easy it can be to think you're providing correct care for a snake and end up accidentally harming it. Also, he was getting rid of them dirt cheap, so maybe he realized he had no clue what to do and was trying to do the right thing?
idk. I just like to assume the best in people until I have a really good reason to think otherwise.

I hear what you're saying, but come on..

d_virginiana

05-05-2011, 03:51 PM

I hear what you're saying, but come on..

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by this... I believe I said in my post that I agreed that they should have been better researched? (I'm not sure if the first post was in any way related to what I said or not...)

All I'm saying is that we have no clue what the surrounding circumstances were and that accidental neglect for snakes is quite common. Seriously; when I got my first snake, the petstore personnel told me that they ate crickets and feeder goldfish (option one, they don't eat, option two can be poisonous) and that they didn't require a UV light or special heat; just keeping them at house temperature. Sounds a heck of a lot like the setup this guy described.

For that reason, I feel that charging anyone with any sort of criminal offense in this matter would be extreme (especially the grandma who apparently lived in a different state and was probably told that the kid would take *great* care of them over the phone :P)
I'm not saying that any of the people involved handled the situation correctly, just that perhaps a lot of the judgements people have made on this are a little too harsh.

RedSidedSPR

05-05-2011, 04:35 PM

Sorry, didn't mean anything against. I was just saying "come on" not really "but" come on.
I'm ticked off at a guy who isn't too much younger than me, that should have had the sense to look up on the internet how to care for them.

Mommy2many

05-05-2011, 05:16 PM

I have to admit, that when I first had my garter snakes as a child, I only had the knowledge and information my parents bestowed upon me. We lived a half an hour from town and in that day (now I'm dating myself) there were no computers. I can say for a fact I was grossly misinformed. However, I did the best I could with what I had and went on from there.

Nowadays, there is so much information available to everyone, that this mistake, most times, can be avoided. We do not know the circumstances and never will. Therefore, we cannot come to any conclusion regarding the intent. I can comfortably say, that for all intensive purposes, the snakes were intended as a kind gift and was accepted with the hope of spending time with new pets. I'm sure it was very disappointing to have 4 of them perish and can only imagine what that child may have felt (as well as the grandmother for sending them) at the loss. We can only hope that they have learned from this experience and are better prepared to care for the remaining two and any more in the future. Hopefully, they will find our forum.

We all need to take a step back sometimes and get another look at the picture.

gregmonsta

05-05-2011, 06:09 PM

So you'd charge a 14 year old or an old lady with neglect?

Without a second's hesitation. The court would decide to what degree and how culpable the people in question are.

I had no internet, with very little means in a single parent family and, starting at the age of 14, I still managed to find information and read extensively about garter snakes for close to 2 years before I got my first one.

The grandmother and the parents are the ones that are really to blame in this situation though. All are adults that really should have known better and there's absolutely no excuse for it in this day and age.

P.S. - yes educating them would be a good thing for the future but ... zero tolerance is the only thing that would make a difference. I'll happily compare this to my battles with British reptile shops and my on-going attempts to get the right info to them ... my insistance on other British forums to dispell and rubbish all of the nonsensical husbandry quips that pop up through word of mouth.
It all falls on deaf ears and until people are willing to make examples of others ... snakes will suffer and die ... simples.

d_virginiana

05-05-2011, 06:30 PM

Millinex

05-05-2011, 08:48 PM

Without a second's hesitation. The court would decide to what degree and how culpable the people in question are.

I had no internet, with very little means in a single parent family and, starting at the age of 14, I still managed to find information and read extensively about garter snakes for close to 2 years before I got my first one.

The grandmother and the parents are the ones that are really to blame in this situation though. All are adults that really should have known better and there's absolutely no excuse for it in this day and age.

P.S. - yes educating them would be a good thing for the future but ... zero tolerance is the only thing that would make a difference. I'll happily compare this to my battles with British reptile shops and my on-going attempts to get the right info to them ... my insistance on other British forums to dispell and rubbish all of the nonsensical husbandry quips that pop up through word of mouth.
It all falls on deaf ears and until people are willing to make examples of others ... snakes will suffer and die ... simples.
He's a kid for gods sake, and you want to charge him with crimes? You're willing to have fines, time in juvie off of this kids life over a couple snakes? Ok if he was taking them and burning them sure, however, failing to keep an animal properly doesn't deserve an animal cruelty charge under any circumstance. I would never take away someones childhood over a snake, or any animal for that matter, unless he was doing something actually malicious, not just failing at husbandry, when he probably wasn't a huge snake keeping kid, and just got given presents.

gregmonsta

05-06-2011, 01:56 AM

He's a kid for gods sake, and you want to charge him with crimes? You're willing to have fines, time in juvie off of this kids life over a couple snakes? Ok if he was taking them and burning them sure, however, failing to keep an animal properly doesn't deserve an animal cruelty charge under any circumstance. I would never take away someones childhood over a snake, or any animal for that matter, unless he was doing something actually malicious, not just failing at husbandry, when he probably wasn't a huge snake keeping kid, and just got given presents.

.... no idea what the system is in your country ... but at his age/for this crime he wouldn't face anything here ... his parents would be facing a fine and I already stated that they, along with grandma, are the ones truly at fault in this situation.

I beg to differ on your 'failling to keep an animal properly' statement.

Again ... the word 'husbandry' ... these animals are 'family' which you are duty bound to take care of, more or less as children ... neglect your children and see what happens - do people get away with saying "Oh, I didn't know I needed to change the nappy"/etc?

d_virginiana

05-06-2011, 05:35 AM

Again ... the word 'husbandry' ... these animals are 'family' which you are duty bound to take care of, more or less as children/etc?
I totally agree on this point, but people like the ones in question are the reason for certain clauses in most states' neglect laws that allow for a warning system: ie; if an animal is seen kept in improper conditions (not overtly starved/abused mind you) the owner is given a notice, instructions on how to fix the problem, and an amount of time to fix a problem. In some states, the warning system is that an animal kept in improper conditions must be removed from the property, but if the neglect was found to be accidental and the owner cooperates, there are no charges. Only if someone refuses to fix their mistakes would they be charged; it's a safeguard for well-meaning but totally ignorant pet owners.

neglect your children and see what happens - do people get away with saying "Oh, I didn't know I needed to change the nappy"/etc?
Haha, you'd be surprised how many do get away with that, our foster-care/social services programs are pretty badly underfunded. :P
This is actually exactly what I was saying in my earlier post.. It's VERY easy to be misinformed about a garter snake, even if you think you've done your research (lots of faulty info on the internet and many large-scale venders misinform people). I mean, a baby is generally born in a hospital where doctors tell you exactly what to do and expect, baby products have their own aisle in Wal-Mart and come with precise directions on the back just in case someone doesn't know, and finally there aren't lots of rumors going around saying that it's okay to feed your baby cyanide or keep it outdoors or anything else that could be compared to the conditions in this situation.

Also, a baby will let you *know* if you're doing something wrong. You don't change the diaper, and you're going to hear about it until you do. If a baby is sick, it acts in a way we would recognize as sick. Snakes don't do this. Their behavior doesn't really change enough for someone not used to snakes to catch on that their snake isn't thriving.
idk... I just feel that that comparison is probably somewhat unfair...

Sonya610

05-06-2011, 01:18 PM

It is very unlikely that the grandmother went to the pet store and PAID for 6 garter snakes. She wanted to send a "cheap" gift to the grandson so she probably saw them in the yard and either collected them or had someone else do it. Then she sent them snail mail to the kid.

Animals have little to no value to MANY people (including some that post in this thread, they obviously recognize the cash value but nothing beyond that). Gathering up some baby animals and sending them off as a "cheap" gift to the grandchild in a dirt cheap container seems perfectly reasonable to this grandmother, who cares if the snakes die as long as the grandson gets a few weeks of amusement?

Not unlike that woman that stuffed a puppy in a box, sealed hte box in a plastic bag and took it to the post office to have it sent "freight" to her child in Georgia as a birthday gift. Cheap gift, cheap postage, 'nough said.

d_virginiana

05-06-2011, 08:52 PM

Animals have little to no value to MANY people (including some that post in this thread, they obviously recognize the cash value but nothing beyond that).

I've re-read this whole thread and can find only two or three people whose standpoints on this issue differ greatly from your own, and one of them is myself. If it wasn't your intention to imply that some people posting on this thread had that attitude toward animals, then I'm sorry for taking it the wrong way; perhaps you meant to say something other than thread? (because no one in this thread so far has even mentioned profit value of snakes as far as I'm aware...)

If that comment was directed at me at all, then you're grossly mistaken. I have never made any profit from any of my animals, nor have I ever even bred any of them, and most of them are rescues that I have had to rehabilitate myself. I also rehab and release orphaned and injured wild animals. Caring for animals is and always has been my passion in life.

I respect your opinion on this issue even if I disagree with it, but I find the implication that people in this thread who have different opinions than yourself condone animal exploitation/neglect to be a bit offensive...

kibakiba

05-06-2011, 10:08 PM

I personally value my snakes over most things in my life. I've put my home business off just for the well being of my snakes. I know a lot of people here, and those who have posted in this thread, really love, care for and value their snakes. Sure there is a cash value to their snakes but they don't go off selling them to just anyone. I know for a fact that some of the people who posted on this thread wouldn't sell their snakes for a quick buck. That includes me.

Who exactly is it that doesn't value their snakes? I haven't seen anyone on here trying to make a quick buck off of them.

drache

05-07-2011, 05:37 AM

we're not talking about people on this forum
there may be some here who have differing ideas regarding husbandry, but for the most part we do care a lot about snakes
the many people to whom snakes are of little or no value, are definitely out there, and unlikely to show up here, where they could be properly educated

Sonya610

05-07-2011, 06:45 AM

I've re-read this whole thread and can find only two or three people whose standpoints on this issue differ greatly from your own, and one of them is myself.

The comment was not directed at you.

You are correct, I have not seen any comments in THIS thread regarding keeping snakes solely for profit and not as pets however the comment has been made by some in OTHER threads.

The profitability stance is one thing, but combine that with statements that amount to "it is just a snake that can't think and doesn't feel" and then defending the abuse of the animals with statements that amount to "humans, even abusive humans, are intrinsically superior therefore if in doubt they should get a free pass" makes up negative viewpoint in my mind. WHile the average joe blow on the street can hold the views it is a bit different when such views are shared on a forum devoted to the well-being of these fine animals and the statements are made by someone who chooses to buy/sell/keep the animals in large numbers.

d_virginiana

05-07-2011, 08:58 AM

Alright then, good to know. Though if you weren't aiming that at people on this particular thread, you probably should have worded your initial comment a bit differently.

Also, I know I haven't been here long but I haven't encountered anybody on this forum who would openly condone abusing snakes.

Sonya610

05-07-2011, 09:02 AM

Though if you weren't aiming that at people on this particular thread, you probably should have worded your initial comment a bit differently.

I was referring to someone that posted in this thread, I won't mention any names as that would be overly direct but it is likely that others who have followed various conversations are aware of the point I am making.

d_virginiana

05-07-2011, 10:57 AM

I have followed several other conversations, and I'm aware of the person to whom you are referring; that was actually pretty direct, because I picked up on it and I think I've probably spent about two hours total on this forum.

Accusing someone of condoning abuse/neglect is pretty serious, and while I've come across people here who have different views on husbandry and animal psychology than my own, I wouldn't toss that sort of language out there on a forum where it seems like most everybody cares deeply about their snakes (otherwise, why else would they be here?)

** Sorry about harping, but this issue hits some personal buttons of mine due to a couple of rather tragic incidents that people in my community have had to deal with because of well-meaning but out-of-touch vets reporting devoted pet owners to animal control because of perceived but not actual abuse/neglect.

Sonya610

05-08-2011, 06:09 AM

You are free to have all the opinions you like however when it comes to schooling other site members on what they should and should not post please realize I do not take direction from you.

If you believe my posts are violating the T&C's of this site I suggest you take it up with a Moderator.

I am done discussing this.

brujha

05-08-2011, 07:50 AM

how do you post pictures on this site
:confused:

brujha

05-08-2011, 07:59 AM

i do my best to help any creature in need, that i can afford to or have room for. then rehome them if needed or re release them have even bottle fed a few racoons for a d&r friend and a fox till they were ready to take care of them self..except mabe misquetos or flys lol

mustang

05-08-2011, 08:46 AM

i dont believe in giving animals as presents unless you know A) they can take care of them and B) they know when they need help.

when i got checker i had him for a good few weeks before i finally found thihs site...then once i did, checker's life expectancy grew past a year. and now i still have him.

d_virginiana

05-08-2011, 10:20 AM

Sonya610: I never said you shouldn't have posted something; honestly, I don't really care enough about it to bother trying to give you 'direction'. I disagreed with what you posted and then gave reasons why I saw the issue a different way. I was simply discussing an issue that I have a personal interest in. The most I ever said about your posts was that your language was getting a bit combative. I agree that this is probably a good place to end that line of conversation.

have even bottle fed a few racoons for a d&r friend and a fox till they were ready to take care of them self.
That is so cool! Did you end up releasing them, or did they have to stay in captivity? I've raised orphaned opossums before, and they're pretty much all instinct, so it's cool to just release them once they're old enough, but I've never worked with raccoons or foxes before. :)

Millinex

05-08-2011, 01:18 PM

The comment was not directed at you.

You are correct, I have not seen any comments in THIS thread regarding keeping snakes solely for profit and not as pets however the comment has been made by some in OTHER threads.
AKA, Me, Don't be afraid to mention my name, it doesn't bother me.

The profitability stance is one thing, but combine that with statements that amount to "it is just a snake that can't think and doesn't feel"
That is my view based upon what I have observed and researched over the last 15 years, and "feel" is about emotion, not pain, the CNS.

and then defending the abuse of the animals with statements that amount to "humans, even abusive humans, are intrinsically superior therefore if in doubt they should get a free pass"
I'm not defending the abuse of animals, I'm more than against it; however, the idea of putting some 80 year old lady, or a 14 year old kid, in jail over a couple snakes when abuse wasn't intentional, is 100% STUPID. I'm not afraid to say it, that is why America is going down hill, myself, I'd rather educate both parties and let them try again and learn, than just throw them in jail. Again, these are the same kind of people who sue mcdonalds when they drop their coffee on themselves crying: "I didn't know it was hot!". Seriously, it's disgusting how much people cry and call for the justice system this day and age.

makes up negative viewpoint in my mind. WHile the average joe blow on the street can hold the views it is a bit different when such views are shared on a forum devoted to the well-being of these fine animals and the statements are made by someone who chooses to buy/sell/keep the animals in large numbers.
Oh man, I hold views different than you but still maintain a large collection of PERFECTLY healthy snakes. However, because I disagree with certain keeping methods, and certain uses of law, it's such a huge deal, that's laughable.

I was referring to someone that posted in this thread, I won't mention any names as that would be overly direct but it is likely that others who have followed various conversations are aware of the point I am making.
Hi, I'm Mike use my name and don't be afraid to.

I have followed several other conversations, and I'm aware of the person to whom you are referring; that was actually pretty direct, because I picked up on it and I think I've probably spent about two hours total on this forum.
Everyone did, however actually saying my name seems difficult for some people? It's not like I bite, oh wait, I do, I defend what I believe and I'm not a door mat.

Accusing someone of condoning abuse/neglect is pretty serious, and while I've come across people here who have different views on husbandry and animal psychology than my own, I wouldn't toss that sort of language out there on a forum where it seems like most everybody cares deeply about their snakes (otherwise, why else would they be here?)
Again, I never condone abuse/neglect, I just view this scenario different. Should the guy fighting dogs be in jail? Yep, the guy with a trailer full of poorly kept snakes in texas? Yep, because they KNEW what they where doing was wrong. Big difference. Also, in terms of "care deeply". That's one of those interesting statements. I will say I would never value my snakes over my dog, or monitors, doesn't mean I don't care about them though.

aSnakeLovinBabe

05-08-2011, 06:06 PM

I actually agree with Mike on this one. Have none of you guys EVER made a beginner's mistake? Not one single one? You all did it right, right from the start? Probably not... but maybe you thought what you were doing was totally right, and when the animal died or suffered some, even minor discomfort because of it... should you have been prosectured for neglect and abuse? Maybe the animal didn't even suffer noticeably, maybe you just had your temps a little too high, but it was wrong regardless, so you should be charged with animal cruelty and given no chance to redeem yourself... zero tolerance, right?

When I got started in this hobby, as a kid, I had to do it for myself... I had no one to show me what to do or where to get my information. I had no idea there were a lot of other people like me that took interest in snakes, especially garter snakes. I didn't know anything about reptile shows, or that you could ship snakes, or that blue calcium sand was not the best thing to keep my garters on. Besides it says right on the package it is GOOD for reptiles. I had a very skewed idea of how to keep garter snakes for YEARS. But I thought I was right. My beginners mistakes killed a few snakes. In fact, I probably killed about 10 garter snakes in my early years because I simply did not know what the hell I was doing. So by all means guys... string me up. banish me! Prosecute me to the fullest extent of the law. My ignorance was intolerable, inexcusable.

For all we know this kid looked up garter snakes, read that they eat crickets and called it a day. How many public sources have we all seen that say this is the case? What are the chances that some know-it-all guy at some pet store gave the kid really bad information and assured him it was right? There is a difference between people who have been informed they are keeping their snakes wrong, and still choose to do it, and people who just plain don't know any better and sincerely think they are doing it right. We don't know ANY of the circumstances of this whole ordeal, but so many are so quick to pass judgement. This saddens me. Yes, these people should be educated so it does not happen again. But should they be tied to a stake and have stones thrown at them? Likely not. If we as hobbyists do not lead by example, GOOD examples, we are no better than anyone else that enjoys throwing stones. So we can throw stones, and grumble about stupid people, about how we would love to get some sort of vengeance for the snakes that died, or we can continue to better our communities by doing educational shows, spreading our knowledge, and stopping to talk to people that just skitzed out at the park because they saw a snake.

What defines a person's character is not what mistakes they make, but how they react to their mistakes and what they take away from them. Do they take what has happened, and learn from it? Do they try to improve the next time around? Or do they just do the same thing over again, uncaring if the results are the same? If this is the case, then, and only then, by all means, throw stones. big ones.

infernalis

05-08-2011, 06:58 PM

Thank you Shannon.. I had refrained from speaking until now.

I simply must concur with what she so eloquently stated, even I am guilty of accidentally killing animals because I thought I was doing the right thing.

We have all at some time or another done something that caused the premature death of an animal, weather we ran it over with a mower, or touched a baby bird causing it's mother to throw it from the nest, or even misinterpreted a symptom and provided the wrong treatment.

None of us are criminals for it..

ConcinusMan

05-08-2011, 07:42 PM

We have all at some time or another... or touched a baby bird causing it's mother to throw it from the nest..

Not to change the subject but that is a myth you know.:cool:

aSnakeLovinBabe

05-08-2011, 07:44 PM

Not to change the subject but that is a myth you know.:cool:

Indeed, this is a myth. I was going to leave it be, because honestly, it's a good myth. It keeps people from screwing around with baby birds! :cool:

Didymus20X6

05-08-2011, 08:44 PM

how do you post pictures on this site
:confused:

1. Upload pic to Tinypic, Photobucket, Imageshack, Facebook, whatever.

2. Copy the URL where the pic is stored.

3. Click on the "Insert Image" button, indicated below.
http://i56.tinypic.com/k4jdxj.png
4. Paste the URL into the box.

Millinex

05-08-2011, 09:00 PM

Well said Shannon, you did a great job of saying what I was essentially trying to say.

aSnakeLovinBabe

05-08-2011, 09:13 PM

1. Upload pic to Tinypic, Photobucket, Imageshack, Facebook, whatever.

2. Copy the URL where the pic is stored.

3. Click on the "Insert Image" button, indicated below.
http://i56.tinypic.com/k4jdxj.png
4. Paste the URL into the box.

Alternatively, Upload to photobucket, and copy the [IMG] link that they give you, paste it directly into your post.

aSnakeLovinBabe

05-08-2011, 09:13 PM

Well said Shannon, you did a great job of saying what I was essentially trying to say.

thank you! :)

ssssnakeluvr

05-08-2011, 10:03 PM

Indeed, this is a myth. I was going to leave it be, because honestly, it's a good myth. It keeps people from screwing around with baby birds! :cool:
here in Utah its against state law to disturb a live nest!! I get to tell people once or twice a year they can't bother the nest in their yard until the baby birds are gone... :cool:

brujha

05-09-2011, 05:42 AM

racoons are just let go after giving them the raw food that they will find in the wild as far away from humans as they can to keep them from garbage and ppl feeding them foxes are harder there instincts are mostly low and they follow u everywhere the one i had went to a petting zoo

brujha

05-09-2011, 06:00 AM

i agree everyone makes mistakes and he said he looked it up on internet as to what to feed them but had no intrest in them and that they would get a better home if ppl payed a little money for them. didn't think the post would couse this much contaversy lol
and if it would have been abuse i would have reported it. ....on another note these babies show no intrest in worms or silversides should i try live ..and they were being fed live crickets and live feeder goldfish ..what should i try and how long can they go without eating before i worry ?

Sonya610

05-09-2011, 07:13 AM

I respect the opinions and viewpoints of the others on this forum but this case is NOT the same as a kid that catches a wild garter and tries their best to care for their new pet with very little knowledge.

The Grandmother obviously did not care in the slightest about these animals, she simply saw them as a cheap gift that would amuse her grandson for a few weeks or maybe months. A few free snakes, an $8 critter keeper, and $4 in postage makes for weeks of amusement! Not one tiny thought was put into what the animals would go through.

Others may say "but you don't know what that woman was thinking". Oh but we can guess. Six babies??? Six? I guarantee you this woman has seen adult garter snakes, she darn well knew they don't stay tiny forever. She sends SIX off in a critter keeper? If she had any expectation (or even thought about it for a moment) that those snakes to live happily and grow she would realize that critter keeper would be WAY to small for six snakes in a short amount of time.

At that point, assuming Granny believe that her grandson would be very attached to his new pets and devoted to their care, she would have burdened his parents with the expense of buying at least one MUCH larger enclosure, much more food, etc...

How many mothers would say "great idea, little Johnny would LOVE a snake, but don't just send ONE, send HALF A DOZEN as it will be so much fun to go out and buy new cages and equipment and food to care for a whole bunch of them!". They didn't spend any money to buy a small tank for the few they had!

This is not a case of some well-meaning but uneducated person doing their best. These babies were simply "disposable pets" and their lives meant absolutely nothing (well Granny was hoping they lived for a little while and provided some amusement).

infernalis

05-09-2011, 08:31 AM

How many goldfish die in kids bedrooms?

Not all IQ levels are equal. ;)

To some people, snakes are nothing more than worms with faces.

d_virginiana

05-09-2011, 09:20 AM

Shannon, you said pretty much exactly what I've been trying to say only way better. Very well put. After just a few weeks of lurking around this forum, I've found out that I'm still making certain beginner's mistakes even after 11 years.

Also, in terms of "care deeply". That's one of those interesting statements
I don't know what most people's interpretation of that is (hell, there might be some people out there who have a legit emotional attachment to their snakes for all I know)
When I say I care deeply about my snakes/frogs I mean that I am invested in their welfare and am passionate about keeping them as a hobby. On the other hand when I say I care about my dog I mean that she's a member of my family.

guidofatherof5

05-09-2011, 09:38 AM

I don't know what most people's interpretation of that is (hell, there might be some people out there who have a legit emotional attachment to their snakes for all I know)
When I say I care deeply about my snakes/frogs I mean that I am invested in their welfare and am passionate about keeping them as a hobby. On the other hand when I say I care about my dog I mean that she's a member of my family.

I would be one of those people;)
Not sure how legit it is but it sure makes me feel better.:)

Sonya610

05-09-2011, 10:25 AM

To some people, snakes are nothing more than worms with faces.

And that is my point. It wasn't about "being well-meaning but just uneducated, doing their best and being unfairly blamed" it was about really not giving a darn if they live, die, suffer, etc... Catching wild babies in Florida and sending them off to die a slow death in a dark basement in Michigan was amusing and well worth the $15!

infernalis

05-09-2011, 10:28 AM

And that is my point. It wasn't about "being well-meaning but just uneducated, doing their best and being unfairly blamed" it was about really not giving a darn if they live, die, suffer, etc... Catching wild babies in Florida and sending them off to die a slow death in a dark basement in Michigan was amusing and well worth the $15!

Glad that cleared things up.

We are a unique lot anyways. In a good way.:cool:

Mommy2many

05-09-2011, 10:30 AM

I would be one of those people;)

We are too, a member of that group. Our snakes & frogs all receive the same grieving from my family as our cats & dog (did, when we had her).

They are all part of our family. Period.

d_virginiana

05-09-2011, 02:28 PM

I would be one of those people

Kudos to you for it! I realize (after re-reading my post) that I might have sounded sort of against that, but I've just never met anyone personally with that attitude toward snakes, so it's a bit of a new idea to me.

(Hell, I'm actually beginning to get pretty attached to my frog, cause he has some medical issues that require me to spend quite a bit of time doing stuff for him. I realized this at three last night when we had a little crisis)
Still nowhere near the affection I feel for my dog, but to each their own. I'd always rather see someone more attached to an animal than less; it inevitably ends up better for the animal. :)

ssssnakeluvr

05-09-2011, 02:31 PM

they are like family pets for me also.. its a bummer when one dies!

Millinex

05-09-2011, 02:32 PM

I respect the opinions and viewpoints of the others on this forum but this case is NOT the same as a kid that catches a wild garter and tries their best to care for their new pet with very little knowledge.
Again, you don't know these individuals, or the whole story, nor have you spoken with either parties. You are ASSUMING things about them, which is wrong.

The Grandmother obviously did not care in the slightest about these animals, she simply saw them as a cheap gift that would amuse her grandson for a few weeks or maybe months. A few free snakes, an $8 critter keeper, and $4 in postage makes for weeks of amusement! Not one tiny thought was put into what the animals would go through.
How do you know she didn't care? Who's to say she in all honesty meant well just had no idea what she was doing. Again, great job jumping to conclusions about someone you don't know, very well done and educated of you.

Others may say "but you don't know what that woman was thinking". Oh but we can guess. Six babies??? Six? I guarantee you this woman has seen adult garter snakes, she darn well knew they don't stay tiny forever. She sends SIX off in a critter keeper? If she had any expectation (or even thought about it for a moment) that those snakes to live happily and grow she would realize that critter keeper would be WAY to small for six snakes in a short amount of time.
She's seen adult garters, wow so what? Do you know how many times I've had people legitimately believe that snakes will only grow to the size of their enclosure? Maybe she thought they would stay small if cared for in a certain manner? Hell, I've also seen some pretty big critter keepers, 6 babies could easily be housed in the largest one. Of course, in this case they must have been big babies, with a tiny critter keeper, just to make the story so much more damning on the people involved!

At that point, assuming Granny believe that her grandson would be very attached to his new pets and devoted to their care, she would have burdened his parents with the expense of buying at least one MUCH larger enclosure, much more food, etc...
More assumptions based on 0 evidence. Who's to say she thought they would get bigger? Lots of people don't view that as the case, it's a very common myth.

How many mothers would say "great idea, little Johnny would LOVE a snake, but don't just send ONE, send HALF A DOZEN as it will be so much fun to go out and buy new cages and equipment and food to care for a whole bunch of them!". They didn't spend any money to buy a small tank for the few they had!
Now we drag in a character not even relevant to the story, only to push more blame based on 0 facts, not even gonna bother to comment on this one.

This is not a case of some well-meaning but uneducated person doing their best. These babies were simply "disposable pets" and their lives meant absolutely nothing (well Granny was hoping they lived for a little while and provided some amusement).
My grandma gave me a snake when I was young. She told me feed it bugs in the yard and put it in a bucket with some water. Needless to say I put it in a 5 gallon bucket, with half inch of water, some grass and spiders/crickets for food, and called it a day. I asked the local pet shop and they said insects should be fine for a garter snake, and that he won't outgrow is bucket if I don't feed as much. I legitimately meant well, but the snake ended up dieing.

Me and my grandma where clearly terrible people, we deserve to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law! Oh man, some people's logic is so flawed it makes me literally laugh, this is exactly why parts of the hobby have such a bad name.

infernalis

05-09-2011, 02:59 PM

Me and my grandma where clearly terrible people, we deserve to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law! Oh man, some people's logic is so flawed it makes me literally laugh, this is exactly why parts of the hobby have such a bad name.

Awesome!:cool:

gregmonsta

05-09-2011, 05:41 PM

we deserve to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law! Oh man, some people's logic is so flawed it makes me literally laugh

I keep seeing this, even in response to one of my comments, that you expect a charge to equal jail or worse ... whereas the original case, etc, would surely just lead to an educating 'slap on the wrist'. Surely, always assuming the worst is 'flawed' logic.

It doesn't change the fact that they still should have known better in this day and age and that examples have to be made to get the point across and judged on the circumstances of each case. ... there's nothing wrong with that logic for as long as animals die through ignorance and bad advice with no form of penalty the hobby is giving more fuel to those who would like to stop the keeping of exotics. It can, will and does stunt the growth of our hobby and directly affects the public opinion of it.

And yes, bad info is out there and people do make mistakes but it is up to people like us to get the right info out there and combat bad practice in its many forms.

Mommy2many

05-09-2011, 05:56 PM

Greg, I agree that we must educate those who do not have the knowledge; wether flawed or not.

However, as Shannon stated, we have all made mistakes at first and I can honestly say, that if I didn't have my computer, an internet connection and this forum available to me; I would have made the same mistakes all over again. Thank God for the members here, to share their knowledge.

My girl Stewie, at the time, was gravid. I was able to keep her and her young for at least a year and a half.

There are a few sides to this story and we do not know any of them. I agree wholeheartedly to prosecuting those who willfully abuse and neglect animals. However, we are here to teach. To not make someone new to the husbandry of snakes afraid to ask the necessary questions to properly take care of their charges. No one should be afraid to ask anyone of us a question in regards to our garter snakes and how to keep them and keep them healthy.

Many of us have personally experienced the fatally incorrect advice given to us by the so called "professionals"

This post has gone on long enough, don't you think?

Millinex

05-09-2011, 08:01 PM

Oh man, the 14 year old and the grandma deserve the slap on the wrist, stress from law enforcement. Want to know something funny that you probably didn't think through at all?

Pretend your the 14 year old kid, you keep the snake and fail at it, you're already upset they died. On top of that, suddenly cops and whatnot show up at your house, and your grandma, saying "if you do it again you'll be in real trouble!". Guess what happens? Kid never has an interest in keeping snakes again, in fear, because some idiot decided calling the cops and trying to press charges was the best option, just to "make an example".

Again, some of the logic in this hobby is so hideously terrible I lay awake at night, sometimes for up to an hour, just chuckling. The greatest detriment to the reptile hobby, is not a fear of snakes, is not the laws preventing certain animals.. The single greatest detriment, are members of the community itself, who either put themselves on some pedestal like they are better than anyone else, or the extremists who are unforgiving of beginner mistakes.

-Mike

Didymus20X6

05-09-2011, 08:18 PM

To some people, snakes are nothing more than worms with faces.

Correction: Worms with FANGS. The faces, not so much.

d_virginiana

05-09-2011, 09:26 PM

Correction: Worms with FANGS

That's a legitimately terrifying thought....
I won't even get near blood-worms because they can nip at you. If worms actually had fangs I would probably never garden again.

gregmonsta

05-10-2011, 04:41 AM

Want to know something funny that you probably didn't think through at all?

Pretend your the 14 year old kid, you keep the snake and fail at it, you're already upset they died. On top of that, suddenly cops and whatnot show up at your house, and your grandma, saying "if you do it again you'll be in real trouble!". Guess what happens? Kid never has an interest in keeping snakes again, in fear, because some idiot decided calling the cops and trying to press charges was the best option, just to "make an example".

:rolleyes: Then they weren't serious about keeping snakes in the first place ... A warning would've made me endeavour to to try harder if I had been faced with such a situation in the past.
I've seen friendly advice fall on deaf ears too often as well as being rudely dismissed by hobby keepers and reptile shops alike. My viewpoint may be jaded by this ... but these mistakes have already been made numerous times.
Not knowing every detail of the story is a problem ... but a post that tells of the death of a group of snakes in a case like this will always be evocative.
I still blame the parents and the grandmother.

Sonya610

05-10-2011, 04:46 AM

Again, some of the logic in this hobby is so hideously terrible I lay awake at night, sometimes for up to an hour, just chuckling. The greatest detriment to the reptile hobby, is not a fear of snakes, is not the laws preventing certain animals.. The single greatest detriment, are members of the community itself, who either put themselves on some pedestal like they are better than anyone else, or the extremists who are unforgiving of beginner mistakes.

I do not think logic plays into your arguments; your arguments are primarily grandiose dramatic gesturing on a variety of topics with very little consistency.

No one believes animal control could or would get anyone prosecuted for this. To even suggest as much is idiocy! Fact is if anyone thought the authorities took an interest they would stuff the whole container in a nearby trash can or or dump then over into a neighbors yard in a heartbeat. There was NO RISK of prosecution so there is no need to carry on like the kid or the poor little granny will end up in the big house.

This is a forum devoted to garter snakes, people on this forum SHOULD get upset when they read about an incident such as this. If everyone just shrugged and said "oh well....no biggie...they are just garter snakes afterall" that would be far more disconcerting.

Millinex

05-10-2011, 10:51 AM

:rolleyes: Then they weren't serious about keeping snakes in the first place ... A warning would've made me endeavour to to try harder if I had been faced with such a situation in the past.
I've seen friendly advice fall on deaf ears too often as well as being rudely dismissed by hobby keepers and reptile shops alike. My viewpoint may be jaded by this ... but these mistakes have already been made numerous times.
Not knowing every detail of the story is a problem ... but a post that tells of the death of a group of snakes in a case like this will always be evocative.
I still blame the parents and the grandmother.
The interest in snakes has to start somewhere. I certainly didn't plan on being where I was with my first few snakes, they where just something fun to have, if they died I tried again doing something different. Hobbys like this have to have time to GROW, they don't develop into "serious keeping" overnight.
Again, that is why I said the reptile industry itself is its greatest enemy, my own herp shop still fails to listen to me about monitors, despite the fact I have 4 healthy ones in my care, and theirs have a tendency to die.

I do not think logic plays into your arguments; your arguments are primarily grandiose dramatic gesturing on a variety of topics with very little consistency.

No one believes animal control could or would get anyone prosecuted for this. To even suggest as much is idiocy! Fact is if anyone thought the authorities took an interest they would stuff the whole container in a nearby trash can or or dump then over into a neighbors yard in a heartbeat. There was NO RISK of prosecution so there is no need to carry on like the kid or the poor little granny will end up in the big house.

This is a forum devoted to garter snakes, people on this forum SHOULD get upset when they read about an incident such as this. If everyone justshrugged and said "oh well....no biggie...they are just garter snakes afterall" that would be far more disconcerting.
No, they wouldn't get anyone prosecuted, because animal control would laugh in your face, multiple times. I'm fully aware of this. The problem is, members of this forum WANT animal control to do what they won't do- prosecute and file charges. The fact people want these people prosecuted is repulsive. Clearly you didn't understand the point I was getting at?

I also understand this forum should be upset; however, that doesn't give them an excuse to be extremists about things. Frankly, if a young kid is getting into the hobby, and happens to kill a few snakes along the way while learning, so be it, I don't look down on them as nearly everyone I know managed to fail starting out. Hell, I know people getting into species and STILL after years of snake keeping fail at proper husbandry. I know of people who spend $500+ on setups, only to not keep the snake right and it die, I watched it happen the other day with 2 ball pythons. Man oh man, BUT WE ARE ANGRY ON THE INTERNET, GET THEM!

Seriously, let people be, there is no reason to want animal control involved in any of this, or to be as upset as a lot of people here are.

ConcinusMan

05-10-2011, 02:50 PM

Just for the record I never said they should be prosecuted. I think that would be based on a case-by-case basis to determine if that is warranted. I'm sure in many cases, it's not warranted. All I was trying to say is that enforcement seems a bit biased. If someone had done the same thing to just about any other animal (horse, dog, sheep, cat, etc.) you can bet they would be looking into it. I just think the law should not exempt people from responsibility just because "it's just a garter snake" or "just a reptile"

Seriously, what they did is "abuse by neglect" by definition. Why should people be exempt from prosecution just because it's a garter snake and not dog or cat?

Let's be clear that "animal cruelty" is not what this is. That is a more serious offense and is when someone intentionally tortures or makes an animal suffer for their own amusement. Penalties for that are severe.

When you own an animal it is your responsibility to see to it's proper care. If you cannot do that, it is your responsibility to give up that animal to someone who can. Fail to do that, for whatever reason, and it results in suffering, neglect, and death of the animal, you are responsible for that. It doesn't matter if your intention was to make the animal suffer or not. It's still abuse by neglect. It doesn't matter if "you didn't mean to" or if it was out of ignorance. It's still a crime in the U.S. although not nearly as serious as animal cruelty. First or sometimes even second offense for neglect often doesn't even result in jail time. Instead it's usually a fine and/or community service, usually working at an animal rescue or shelter.

Do I think these people should be aggressively prosecuted and thrown in jail? No. Not really. But I still think they should be held responsible. They need to send the message that this is not OK. Doesn't matter if they meant to do it or not. Doesn't matter if it was just a case of ignorance.

Millinex

05-10-2011, 07:07 PM

Reptile husbandry is in essence in it's infancy. Everyone in the world can take care of a dog, they've been around for a long time as domesticated animal. Go up to random people on the street, I'd bet a large portion do not have any idea how to take care of a snake, but know how to take care of a dog.

It's not because "it's just a snake" it's because information is not readily known by the public.

-Mike

infernalis

05-10-2011, 07:58 PM

It's not because "it's just a snake" it's because information is not readily known by the public.

-Mike

The hobby is growing, but due to entirely too many people who could care less, it will never hold a candle to dogs & cats.

Compound that by the people with irrational fears, uninformed/misinformed and well, you get the jist....

Stefan-A

05-10-2011, 08:03 PM

could care less,
Could not care less.

infernalis

05-10-2011, 08:32 PM

Could not care less.

Thank you :D

ConcinusMan

05-10-2011, 11:12 PM

Reptile husbandry is in essence in it's infancy.

Horse pucky. I said the same thing nearly 30 years ago when UVA/UVB wasn't even in a herp keepers vocabulary. All we knew is lizards wouldn't live long term in captivity. We didn't know why. A lot has changed. I don't consider it to be in it's infancy any longer.

Everyone in the world can take care of a dog, they've been around for a long time as domesticated animal. Go up to random people on the street, I'd bet a large portion do not have any idea how to take care of a snake, but know how to take care of a dog.

If they don't know how to care for a reptile then they should get a dog.:cool:

It's not because "it's just a snake" it's because information is not readily known by the public.

All I had to do in the late 70's through the 90's was to take my lazy a.. self to a friggen library. The information was there. Now people don't even have to do that. There's much more information, better info, and it's easier to access than ever before. If one cannot find it, it's because he doesn't care enough to look for it. This is the sort of thing that prompted me to choose my current signature.;)

Millinex

05-11-2011, 12:01 AM

Horse pucky. I said the same thing nearly 30 years ago when UVA/UVB wasn't even in a herp keepers vocabulary. All we knew is lizards wouldn't live long term in captivity.
Wrong, we have so much to learn about reptiles it isn't even remotely funny. We learn new things every day about herps, herps are new to the pet trade in comparison to most animals available.

We didn't know why. A lot has changed. I don't consider it to be in it's infancy any longer.
An opinion. I think it is frankly, considering most animals are not well known as pets. Especially garter snakes, which MOST PEOPLE DO NOT KEEP.

Because you never had to learn by experience right? Oh wait, you just admitted "lizards where dieing and you had no idea why". Man, you shoulda gotten a dog bro!

[quote]All I had to do in the late 70's through the 90's was to take my lazy a.. self to a friggen library. The information was there. Now people don't even have to do that.
The library also has books on opossum facts, you should check up on that.

There's much more information, better info, and it's easier to access than ever before. If one cannot find it, it's because he doesn't care enough to look for it. This is the sort of thing that prompted me to choose my current signature.;)
Maybe he didn't have internet? I know a ton of people who even in this day and age DO NOT have internet or access to such. The kid coulda asked at the local pet shop, and been given false info. Many people trust pet shops, why would he research farther if the pet shop told him what to do? I used to do all sorts of stupid crap just because the shop told me to, including hot rocks. Man I'm a bad guy, shoulda done more research as a kid. I should have devoted a ton more time into a side hobby that wasn't my main focus at the time. I should have done so much better AS A KID.

He's a kid, let him be a kid, and learn like a kid, rather than assuming everyone is as devoted as those of us who are neck deep into the hobby.

-Mike

Sonya610

05-11-2011, 05:19 AM

This conversation and the arguments put forth remind me of a disturbing article in the local newspaper. An elderly man was charged with animal cruelty after he beat puppies to death with a hammer.

He claimed the puppies were sick and he was "putting them out of their misery". When the story broke a few people posted comments in support of the old guy, they said in the old days it was common to "put dogs down" in that way and there is no reason he should be charged.

Others pointed out he could have simply called animal control to come get the puppies; his defenders said the old guy probably didn't know that service was available, and because the beating method was supposedly common 80 years ago (before people had guns?) it was unreasonable to expect an older guy to do things differently today.

This conversation reminds me of that.

infernalis

05-11-2011, 05:23 AM

This conversation is 9 pages of going nowhere fast ;)

Sonya610

05-11-2011, 05:33 AM

This conversation is 9 pages of going nowhere fast ;)

Twice I have sworn off posting in this thread; I am starting to think the comments are designed simply to provoke the ire of other posters.

d_virginiana

05-11-2011, 10:08 AM

An elderly man was charged with animal cruelty after he beat puppies to death with a hammer... This conversation reminds me of that.
If the kid in question had been bashing his snakes' heads in with a hammer because they weren't thriving instead of feeding them the wrong type of food, I'd have to totally agree with you.

Along that line, here's an incident that ended up in our local paper (we also knew the owner of the dogs personally). This woman had several pommeranians and had taken them to the vet for their shots and checkup. The vet thought that the dogs had too many fleas and, since the woman said she didn't have the money at the time to buy flea medication, the vet waited until she left the office and called animal control on her. Later that week, she was charged, the dogs taken from her home, and she was prohibited from owning any more dogs for the next few years.
First, if you have large numbers of dogs and live in the south, you are probably aware of how difficult it is to keep fleas down in the summer; we medicate ours and STILL end up with some pretty god-awful infestations.
Second, this woman slept in the bed with her dogs. She also had fleas, and no one was condemning her house as unfit for human habitation. She really loved those animals and was totally traumatized when they were taken away.
Third, the dogs ended up getting euthanized. Personally, I think they were better off with the fleas.

If all you heard was "Woman charged for refusing to give dogs proper medical care" this story would sound a heck of a lot different.

The library also has books on opossum facts, you should check up on that.
This is actually really amusing, because in trying to rehab injured ones in the past, I went by the library when none of the internet sources seemed legit. Those books actually tell you that a staple diet of catfood is appropriate; this will give them MBD and cause an agonizing death due to steady loss of bone mass. Really illustrates how easy it can be to get terrible info from a seemingly trustworthy source..

Sonya610

05-11-2011, 10:42 AM

Along that line, here's an incident that ended up in our local paper (we also knew the owner of the dogs personally).

Please post a link to the story or the owners name (since this was public record).

ConcinusMan

05-11-2011, 11:27 AM

An opinion. I think it is frankly, considering most animals are not well known as pets. Especially garter snakes, which MOST PEOPLE DO NOT KEEP.

Believe what you wish. Even before I started keeping garter snakes way back then, there were many books written on the subject. Garter snakes were a staple of herp keepers in the early days even if they aren't now. Mostly because they are widely available and do well in captivity.

Because you never had to learn by experience right? Oh wait, you just admitted "lizards where dieing and you had no idea why". Man, you shoulda gotten a dog bro!

I didn't say anything about dying and I wasn't talking about me. I only started keeping lizards (sceloporous ssp.) after it was discovered that UVA/UVB is needed. I kept them successfully for years, and bred them. However, I didn't attempt to do so until I first knew all there was to know about keeping them healthy and I was continuously reading up on them. Any snakes or lizards that died in my care didn't die from wrong husbandry. Accidents happen but neglect or improper husbandry did not happen because I researched it. Had these people done that, the snakes probably wouldn't have died. Also I had enough sense to know when a reptile isn't doing well and enough sense to release it before it gets too far gone.

The library also has books on opossum facts, you should check up on that.

Your point eludes me but I am not attempting to keep opossums now am I?

Maybe he didn't have internet? I know a ton of people who even in this day and age DO NOT have internet or access to such.

Virtually everyone in America has access to a library. Most libraries have internet, and yes, they even have books.

The kid coulda asked at the local pet shop, and been given false info. Many people trust pet shops, why would he research farther if the pet shop told him what to do? I used to do all sorts of stupid crap just because the shop told me to, including hot rocks. Man I'm a bad guy, shoulda done more research as a kid. I should have devoted a ton more time into a side hobby that wasn't my main focus at the time. I should have done so much better AS A KID.

He's a kid, let him be a kid, and learn like a kid, rather than assuming everyone is as devoted as those of us who are neck deep into the hobby.

Now you're making ridiculous excuses for them. Tell that to a judge and see if it flies. Quite frankly, the pet stores have no excuse either. Personally, I helped to get a "reptile room" type pet store shut down years ago because of their neglect and dead and dying animals. They are just as responsible as you and I. Believe it or not, if you complain, the law does care. They will shut a place down in a heartbeat if they continue to find abuse and neglect upon inspection but they won't do a damn thing if nobody complains.

And yes, you should have done the research. The very same pet stores that were giving me wrong information sold books with the right information. many of these books are available for checkout at your local library.

Millinex

05-11-2011, 11:48 AM

the second I lay eyes on a possum, I am overwhelmed by intense loathing and an urge to kill it. I don't know why. I just can't stand them. This emotion overtakes all logic. I must kill it even though it makes no sense. I'll even chase it down to kill it. Fortunately for the possum, most of them are able to get to safety before I get a chance. The last possum family of 4 that crossed my yard at 2am were out in the open. They weren't so lucky. Once they are dead, I kind of feel bad about it but the next time I see one, there it is again, the urge to kill it. I have no control over it.

c. You don't understand. No harm isn't an option when I see one. It must die. I don't understand it myself. They just provoke such a deep loathing in me that just letting them go on with their business is not an option. I simply cannot stand the sight of them, and the logic to let them go on unmolested and unharmed makes perfect sense. That sense goes right out the window the second I see one face to face.

I'm getting chills and grinding my teeth just looking at pictures of a possum. I simply must bash it's skull in. (not as easy as it looks, to kill one with blunt force trauma, BTW) I don't know why I react that way. Weird huh? ...

..... If it were live and moving, in front of me it would be even worse. I wouldn't go the other direction. I'd instantly find the nearest object (rock, gun, club, whatever) and chase that sucker. If I caught up to it, I'd shoot it and/or beat it to death, and feel much exhileration and satisfaction in watching it take it's last breath.

I just found this gem. For someone who's real upset about 4 snakes dieing to a 14 year old, I am rather disgusted at the idea of a grown man killing animals for no reason at all. You know better, but you still choose to do this. If anyone should be in trouble for animal neglect/cruelty, it should be you. This is repulsive and disgusting, seek mental help ASAP.