5 gal. tank?

[RedSidedSPR]

I found an old 5gal terrarium at the dump yesterday. I wasn't planning on keeping anything in it, just thought it would be good to have for whatever I need it for.
But now... I'd kinda like to keep something in it... but it's just so small.
So is there any kind of reptile/amphibian that can live in something that small? Some kind of small snake? If not, I'll just buy a bigger tank, use it for quarantining the next snake I get, and then use it to keep something else in it. I'm buying a 10gal soon anyway for quarantine when I get a second garter this year, so it really isn't important, but it would be pretty cool.

[mustang]

I found an old 5gal terrarium at the dump yesterday. I wasn't planning on keeping anything in it, just thought it would be good to have for whatever I need it for.
But now... I'd kinda like to keep something in it... but it's just so small.
So is there any kind of reptile/amphibian that can live in something that small? Some kind of small snake? If not, I'll just buy a bigger tank, use it for quarantining the next snake I get, and then use it to keep something else in it. I'm buying a 10gal soon anyway for quarantine when I get a second garter this year, so it really isn't important, but it would be pretty cool.

skinks, blind snakes,flat heads and black heads (both Flat heads and black heads are Tantillas)...Oh that snake WASNT A WORM SNAKE IT WAS A SMITHS BLACK HEAD!!!!...gotta correct that on all three posts:rolleyes:

[BLUESIRTALIS]

You can use it to house small garters until they outgrow it. You could also put a nothern brown snake or any small snakes in it. It will work great for that new baby garter you plan on getting.

[RedSidedSPR]

skinks, blind snakes,flat heads and black heads (both Flat heads and black heads are Tantillas)...Oh that snake WASNT A WORM SNAKE IT WAS A SMITHS BLACK HEAD!!!!...gotta correct that on all three posts:rolleyes:

Got lots of skinks around here (living under our porch), but none of the snakes you mentioned. Not planning on spending much money on this so it's probably gonna be self-caught. Maybe a brown snake or ringneck snake. Lots of those. That'll be awesome.


You can use it to house small garters until they outgrow it. You could also put a nothern brown snake or any small snakes in it. It will work great for that new baby garter you plan on getting.

I kinda thought it would be to small for that... but if that works I'll use it for that.
I forgot to ask this in the thread, but how big would the baby have to be before I put him in with my adult?

[BLUESIRTALIS]

I would recommend you wait until the babie is close to the same size because the bigger snake could hurt the smaller one. What i mean is don't put a 9" snake in the same cage as a 22" snake. When he gets about 16 or 18" he should be ok.

[mustang]

Got lots of skinks around here (living under our porch), but none of the snakes you mentioned. Not planning on spending much money on this so it's probably gonna be self-caught. Maybe a brown snake or ringneck snake. Lots of those. That'll be awesome.



I kinda thought it would be to small for that... but if that works I'll use it for that.
I forgot to ask this in the thread, but how big would the baby have to be before I put him in with my adult?
you dont have any tantillas? people often mix up flatheads (the only tantilla that i knopw of thatr isnt a black head)with earthsnakes ....theyre pretty much everywhere i thought.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

I think the only tantilla snakes he has are tantilla coronata. They are very hard to find.

[mustang]

oh...ok well tantillas in general dont get big so wont that species fit in the 5 gal?

[RedSidedSPR]

I would recommend you wait until the babie is close to the same size because the bigger snake could hurt the smaller one. What i mean is don't put a 9" snake in the same cage as a 22" snake. When he gets about 16 or 18" he should be ok.

That's what I thought.


oh...ok well tantillas in general dont get big so wont that species fit in the 5 gal?

I think it would, but like he said I never see those. Ringnecks, worm snakes, earth snakes, and brown snakes are the smallest snakes I find. Occasionally a pine woods snake (very, very awesome, but very, very rare). That would be my choice but I've only found one. They aren't really in my area. I was pretty lucky when I found the one I found.
Remember, you live in Texas, I live in NC. Big difference.

[RedSidedSPR]

If I got a baby though, I would have to quarantine, and keep it separately until he's 18inchs? Would it be easier to get an older snake? I'd rather get a baby, but...

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Well you just don't want the baby to get crushed or hurt by the bigger one. And there will always be the concern that the bigger one could pick up a scent from the smaller snakes food and think he is food. So what i reccomend is that you seperate the two for feeding and then after the smaller one eats soak the smaller one in luke warm water to try and rinse the scent off.

[infernalis]

I use 5 gallon tanks for first year babies, plenty of room.

[RedSidedSPR]

Well you just don't want the baby to get crushed or hurt by the bigger one. And there will always be the concern that the bigger one could pick up a scent from the smaller snakes food and think he is food. So what i reccomend is that you seperate the two for feeding and then after the smaller one eats soak the smaller one in luke warm water to try and rinse the scent off.

Yeah, that was my concern, mistaking the small one for lunch. Garters are smart but sometimes they can be a little... un-bright. So are you saying I can keep them together, but not when feeding? And then I have to wash him? It might be easier to just house him separately...


I use 5 gallon tanks for first year babies, plenty of room.

Glad I'll be able to use it. I wasn't sure if anything could thrive in something that small.

[infernalis]

I have housed babies (temporarily) in sandwich size poly boxes without issues.

as long as there is room for a water bowl and hide, the snakes are fine.

the cap from a spice bottle is sufficient as a water bowl for neonate garter snakes.

http://www.danceswithreptiles.com/PG1/images/cap1.jpg

[guidofatherof5]

Good stuff, Wayne.

[infernalis]

I try.....thanks

[RedSidedSPR]

Wow, that guy is tiny. So I'll use it for that, and than later I might put something more permanent... or not... maybe... Thanks

[ConcinusMan]

Everyone keeps recommending snakes and lizards but it doesn't matter how small they are. It's impossible to create a proper temperature gradient or range of conditions in something so small. It's not just about enough space for the animal and it's not about the animal having enough room to roam. It's too damn small, even if your snake or lizard is only a couple of inches long.

I know there will be plenty of people who say otherwise. It's just my opinion that if you use something that small, there's no room for error. The entire enclosure can get too warm, or be too cool but if you have something bigger, it can be too warm on one end, too cool on the other, and it won't matter.

[infernalis]

I will admit Richard, I climate control the whole room, so what I said may not be applicable to others.

However, did you know you can use small track light bulbs as basking lamps that will make a nice little 3 inch basking spot..

[RedSidedSPR]

Everyone keeps recommending snakes and lizards but it doesn't matter how small they are. It's impossible to create a proper temperature gradient or range of conditions in something so small. It's not just about enough space for the animal and it's not about the animal having enough room to roam. It's too damn small, even if your snake or lizard is only a couple of inches long.

I know there will be plenty of people who say otherwise. It's just my opinion that if you use something that small, there's no room for error. The entire enclosure can get too warm, or be too cool but if you have something bigger, it can be too warm on one end, too cool on the other, and it won't matter.

THAT'S WHAT I THOUGHT!!! That was a concern when I posted this. No warm side/hot side. Don't know why I forgot to wright that down. Dang, now I'm confused.


I will admit Richard, I climate control the whole room, so what I said may not be applicable to others.

However, did you know you can use small track light bulbs as basking lamps that will make a nice little 3 inch basking spot..

That's ALSO what I thought... shucks, I'm confused... Should I put anything in it or not?!?

[infernalis]

Why the heck not?? I have NEVER had a snake die from living in a 5 gallon tank.

I have a yearling eastern living in one right now, he has been in it since last spring when he was born, and he is doing just fine.

[RedSidedSPR]

Ok... so I'll do it... any objections Richard?:D

[infernalis]

Lay a 3" flexiwatt tape along the back edge, heat gradient.. EZ

[ConcinusMan]

Do what you will. Come back later and wonder what went wrong.

[Millinex]

Go find some sort of fence lizard, little suckers are fun as hell to watch rip up huge crickets lol.

[RedSidedSPR]

Do what you will. Come back later and wonder what went wrong.

Ouch. Ok, so your saying he won't survive it, but Wayne says it's perfectly safe and he does it all the time. Who do I believe?


Go find some sort of fence lizard, little suckers are fun as hell to watch rip up huge crickets lol.

Trust me, I know.:D

[ConcinusMan]

Fence lizards require a lot of space. I bred several species of sceloporus' for over a decade. Anything smaller than a 55 gallon long tank for one male and two females is akin to living in a closet.


Ouch. Ok, so your saying he won't survive it, but Wayne says it's perfectly safe and he does it all the time.

Dogs survive being crated, and horses survive being kept in stables too. You're missing the point.

[infernalis]

Ouch. Ok, so your saying he won't survive it, but Wayne says it's perfectly safe and he does it all the time. Who do I believe?:D


Don't take my word for it, I'm just an uneducated simpleton with no experience at anything.....:rolleyes:

argumentum ad ignorantiam

http://www.thamnophis.us/random/five.jpg

[RedSidedSPR]

SEE?!? He has plenty of room in there! What did you mean Richard, when you said "come back and wonder what went wrong?" I'm seriously confused here.

[ConcinusMan]

As I already stated it's not really about the snake having room. If you can manage to heat it without heating the entire thing, it's fine. Thats difficult if you can manage it at all.

[infernalis]

what do you want Richard?? More pictures? a diagram? a complete history of all the people who raise baby snakes in shoe box size poly totes??

use a modest wattage bulb, 30-40 watts will gently warm one end.

Flexiwatt - A very well known heat tape product could also be placed underneath one end to provide a nice little hot spot.

Garter snakes are not rocket science, they thrive outside in conditions far inferior to the inside of that cage.

[RedSidedSPR]

I agree, Richard, that it would be hard to heat it, that was a concern of mine, but according to Wayne, it's not as hard as we thought. So if I can manage to heat it, I'll probably do it. If I need to get a bigger tank, I'll buy it. Anything I put in this will probably be temporary.

I am not trying to be cheap at an animals expense. I just wanted to know if I could have a use for that free terrarium.

[infernalis]

nevermind.......

[ConcinusMan]

what do you want Richard?? More pictures? a diagram? a complete history of all the people who raise baby snakes in shoe box size poly totes??

Just had to go and mention another thing I would never do, didn't you?:p

There is successfully raising and keeping them alive and healthy, and then there is quality of life / comfort. The latter doesn't necessarily go along with the former.

[Millinex]

I've raised young garters up to a reasonable size in nothing larger than a 1$ rubbermaid from walmart... Snakes are extremely low maintenance and don't require much in all honesty. Anyone who feels you can't keep a baby/multiple babies in a 5 gallon is sadly mistaken and doesn't know much about husbandry.

-Mike

[infernalis]

I've raised young garters up to a reasonable size in nothing larger than a 1$ rubbermaid from walmart... Snakes are extremely low maintenance and don't require much in all honesty. Anyone who feels you can't keep a baby/multiple babies in a 5 gallon is sadly mistaken and doesn't know much about husbandry.

-Mike


I like you already..:D:cool:

[kibakiba]

I keep my 5 babies in a one gallon tank. I would prefer having them in something larger, but there is no money to be spent for another couple months. Since they are around 3-5 inches, there is a lot of room for them all still. I won't be keeping them all, so there is still a ton of room left for the two I will be keeping. My (almost) one year olds haven't even hit 9 inches and would fit in it, and still be able to stretch out fine. They don't need a huge area, to live. For other species of garters, they should probably have a larger space, since they aren't born being 1-3 inches long.

[infernalis]

I have a few little 2.5 gallon plastic fish tanks that I keep babies in, never had an issue.

They turn up in rummage sales often for a couple bucks.

[justme]

I would rather have less animals and provide each with an adequately sized enclosure than the other way around.... As a reptile hobbyist, it's easy to attain anything we want just for the sake of it.., just because we can.... There's so much eye candy. But this sort of attitude doesn't sit right by me.

I do feel baby garters can be kept in 5 gallons but I prefer to move mine into a twenty gallon by the time they are one years old. Garters are active creature, they love to climb and explore. And when I have an animal that utilizes space, than "space" I give. I feel happy seeing them at their best. ;-)

I know many people do not share my views as this is a debatable subject.

Good luck.

Karen

[kibakiba]

My garters got nervous when added to a 20 gallon, from a 15 gallon. Mama and Snakey have always been super comfortable in their 15 gallon, They don't fuss when I try picking them up, but when I have added them to a 20 gallon, I couldn't even get near the tank without spazzing.
I do believe in giving my snakes a lot of space, but only when they are comfortable with it. I have Snap in the 20 gallon now and she's perfectly happy in it. I have 4 others in my other 20 and they all seem happy.
I believe if they're uncomfortable in a larger tank, respect it and leave them in something smaller.

[RedSidedSPR]

I like you already..:D:cool:

Ditto.


I keep my 5 babies in a one gallon tank. I would prefer having them in something larger, but there is no money to be spent for another couple months.

Ditto.

I guess I'll do it. Next garter will temporarily start in a 5gal tank.

[Millinex]

I would rather have less animals and provide each with an adequately sized enclosure than the other way around.... As a reptile hobbyist, it's easy to attain anything we want just for the sake of it.., just because we can.... There's so much eye candy. But this sort of attitude doesn't sit right by me.

I do feel baby garters can be kept in 5 gallons but I prefer to move mine into a twenty gallon by the time they are one years old. Garters are active creature, they love to climb and explore. And when I have an animal that utilizes space, than "space" I give. I feel happy seeing them at their best. ;-)

I know many people do not share my views as this is a debatable subject.

Good luck.

Karen
Who's to say what an "adequate" sized enclosure actually is? It's extremely common practice in the reptile hobby to keep young snakes, hell even adults, in bin systems, because in all honesty, snakes do not need a ton of room.

I'm going to be pretty blunt about this, but garters do not "love" to climb and explore. Snakes do not have feelings toward you, you are a warm tree to them. When a snake is out and about, it isn't because it wants to explore and play, its because either it's hungry, or something in it's husbandry isn't proper, and it's looking for a more suitable place to meet its basic needs.

Snakes in the wild do not "come out and explore", they are a prey animal for numerous species, the risk of "exploring" simply isn't worth the chance of being eaten, they move when conditions aren't right, or they need food. Every other chance, the snake is hiding somewhere out of site, in some small area or under a rock, because it's dark and secure.

I keep nearly all of my snakes in tub systems, which I keep at certain humidity/temp depending on snake. I feed every 5-7 days depending on individual and they honestly have 0 reason to move around much. Even the 2 snakes that belong to my girlfriend, in 4x2 cages, sit in their hides 24/7 unless hungry or thirsty.

If you want some display snakes, by all means, pick up a 20 gallon tank and have a blast decorating it and keeping them, but to be perfectly honest, you're decorating the tank for YOUR needs, for YOUR viewing pleasure, the snake could care less.

-Mike

[justme]

Perhaps I need to go back and reread this thread but I felt the direction it was going "How small of a container can we stick an animal in and still have it live?'" not being the best of interest for the captive. When we take on the responsibility of caring for an animal, we also have a financial obligation as well to provide as much as we can for them. This was my main concern. Although overlooked, it almost inspired a caresheet.

Anyway, just expressing my opinions and what works for me as everyone else here on this forum does. I certainly wouldn't want to undermine your top knowledge in reptile husbandry or misguide anyone to raise their animals on a level you consider unfit and substandard.

[ConcinusMan]

Who's to say what an "adequate" sized enclosure actually is? It's extremely common practice in the reptile hobby to keep young snakes, hell even adults, in bin systems, because in all honesty, snakes do not need a ton of room.

While this may be true, it never would hurt to have more room than what is adequate. Since we are not necessarily the best judge of what is adequate, then why push it to the smallest possible size?



I'm going to be pretty blunt about this, but garters do not "love" to climb and explore. Snakes do not have feelings toward you, you are a warm tree to them. When a snake is out and about, it isn't because it wants to explore and play, its because either it's hungry, or something in it's husbandry isn't proper, and it's looking for a more suitable place to meet its basic needs.

Can't say I agree with all of that even though you make some good points. I can honestly say I've observed the difference in attitude, appetite, and general mental well being of snakes, depending on the size of their enclosure, how it is setup. Big improvements in attitude, growth, appetite, etc. happen in well designed "roomy" enclosures as opposed to living in a box or minimal enclosure. The opposite is true for snakes that enjoy being confined and sedentary.


Snakes in the wild do not "come out and explore", they are a prey animal for numerous species, the risk of "exploring" simply isn't worth the chance of being eaten, they move when conditions aren't right, or they need food. Every other chance, the snake is hiding somewhere out of site, in some small area or under a rock, because it's dark and secure.

That's like saying that you would never leave the house, go outside, explore the outdoors, or get out to move around, just because you don't need to.


I keep nearly all of my snakes in tub systems, which I keep at certain humidity/temp depending on snake. I feed every 5-7 days depending on individual and they honestly have 0 reason to move around much. Even the 2 snakes that belong to my girlfriend, in 4x2 cages, sit in their hides 24/7 unless hungry or thirsty.

And that's the thing. Many snakes will tolerate and even thrive under certain range of conditions. They aren't set at a certain point. I prefer to give them a range of comfort zones they can choose at any given time. Sure, they'll live within the range, but that's not the same thing as giving them a choice.


If you want some display snakes, by all means, pick up a 20 gallon tank and have a blast decorating it and keeping them, but to be perfectly honest, you're decorating the tank for YOUR needs, for YOUR viewing pleasure, the snake could care less.

-Mike

I beg to differ. The snake does care. A shy snake can be made to be outgoing, a nervous, poor feeder can be made to eat well and be calm, all depending on how you setup their enclosure. I design the enclosures with their comfort in mind first. Ease of access and maintenance comes second, how it looks to me is last and quite frankly irrelevant if the above needs are not met first. Honestly, i've heard the same arguments from anyone who is trying to justify keeping their snakes living in highly confined spaces. There are certain species that are well suited for such living. Garter snakes are not among them.


Perhaps I need to go back and reread this thread but I felt the direction it was going "How small of a container can we stick an animal in and still have it live?'" not being the best of interest for the captive. When we take on the responsibility of caring for an animal, we also have a financial obligation as well to provide as much as we can for them. This was my main concern. Although overlooked, it almost inspired a caresheet.

Anyway, just expressing my opinions and what works for me as everyone else here on this forum does. I certainly wouldn't want to undermine your top knowledge in reptile husbandry or misguide anyone to raise their animals on a level you consider unfit and substandard.

Well said Karen. I'm not accusing or trying to say I'm right, you're wrong. Just voicing my concerns about using such an enclosure. Not saying it couldn't possibly work. I just don't think it's ideal and would be difficult. If you don't think so, then that is fine.

[Millinex]

Perhaps I need to go back and reread this thread but I felt the direction it was going "How small of a container can we stick an animal in and still have it live?'" not being the best of interest for the captive. When we take on the responsibility of caring for an animal, we also have a financial obligation as well to provide as much as we can for them. This was my main concern. Although overlooked, it almost inspired a caresheet.

Anyway, just expressing my opinions and what works for me as everyone else here on this forum does. I certainly wouldn't want to undermine your top knowledge in reptile husbandry or misguide anyone to raise their animals on a level you consider unfit and substandard.
I highly disagree that was the direction of the thread, although I haven't read it very well due to my lack of care. I only saw arguing about the ability to keep a baby in a 5 gallon tank. I don't know about you, but if I was a baby snake I'd be hiding 99% of the time, because even decent sized insects will take the chance to prey on me. As for "best interest in the captive" I really disagree with this. YOU like the nice made up terrarium, the snake could care less. In all my 15 years of snake keeping, I've seen snakes just as happy in bins as in fancy elaborate cages. I've seen perfect animals come out of bins, and I've seen animals poorly cared for in $400+ setups that "looked pretty" but didn't function properly for the snake.
I'm not saying my way is the end all or is absolutely correct; however, what I am saying is that it can be done, and can be done properly in small environments with no ill effects toward the snake itself.



While this may be true, it never would hurt to have more room than what is adequate. Since we are not necessarily the best judge of what is adequate, then why push it to the smallest possible size?
It doesn't hurt; no, however, it isn't needed either. The snake doesn't care either way. The reason we choose to build big huge cages to display our snakes is because WE want them, not the snake, the snake wants food, water, and proper temps/humidity, other than that it's content to lay under it's hide and relax, it's how they are programmed. Small size is easier to maintain those perfect temps/humidity etc for the individual animal, and easier for us to maintain as well. The snake will not suffer for a smaller cage, if anything, it may feel more secure in the smaller size.



Can't say I agree with all of that even though you make some good points. I can honestly say I've observed the difference in attitude, appetite, and general mental well being of snakes, depending on the size of their enclosure, how it is setup. Big improvements in attitude, growth, appetite, etc. happen in well designed "roomy" enclosures as opposed to living in a box or minimal enclosure. The opposite is true for snakes that enjoy being confined and sedentary.I can honestly say I've never observed any difference in either. I've tried this with multiple species of snakes, including pine, bulls, gophers, garters, boas, species of pythons etc. I have seen absolutely no difference in growth of the animals, their attitudes, "mental well being" (how do we even judge what a snake "thinks"?). In fact, I'd go as far as to say I get a better feeding response from animals in a smaller container, and in some cases actually grow a bit faster because of it, especially as youngsters.
The only snake I can say really "used" her big display case was my 7' northern pine, she was always out and about, however, it's because she's hungry, she does the exact same thing in her bin, crawling around 24/7 because she's a bottomless pit, however in terms of temperment etc there is 0 difference between environments.




That's like saying that you would never leave the house, go outside, explore the outdoors, or get out to move around, just because you don't need to.It really isn't. I'm not prey for other animals, so I am free to leave the house. If I had to worry about a T-Rex eating me every time I walked outside, you'd be sure I'd stay in my house unless I absolutely needed something. Again, you're being very anthropomorphic about these animals. They don't "explore the outdoors" because it goes against the natural instinct to survive, and they certainly just don't go around moving around because they just feel like it. Something in the environment, or lack of food, triggers the snake to need to relocate itself. As much as we may wish our snakes had thinking/problem solving skills like us, they simply don't.



And that's the thing. Many snakes will tolerate and even thrive under certain range of conditions. They aren't set at a certain point. I prefer to give them a range of comfort zones they can choose at any given time. Sure, they'll live within the range, but that's not the same thing as giving them a choice.Sure, a certain range of temperatures and what not are widely accepted by snakes. Hell my bins will fluctuate here and there between a desired temperature range, however it's not out of the animals comfortable range. I don't let them get so dry they are desperately trying to escape and get moisture. Again, it's not bad to give the animal a choice of a large area to use, however, the snake certainly won't suffer for not allowing a broad temperature gradient etc. It all comes down to what you want to provide, and what you think the snake needs, not what the snake thinks it needs. If it was a case of snake thinking it needed XYZ than it would never be able to thrive in a tiny bin and grow and become a decent captive, it would die and the only snakes that would do well would be in 20 gallon tanks heavily planted with lots of hides/plants etc etc. However, clearly the snakes do well in both, so the snake itself doesn't care one way or another.



I beg to differ. The snake does care. A shy snake can be made to be outgoing, a nervous, poor feeder can be made to eat well and be calm, all depending on how you setup their enclosure. I design the enclosures with their comfort in mind first. Ease of access and maintenance comes second, how it looks to me is last and quite frankly irrelevant if the above needs are not met first. Honestly, i've heard the same arguments from anyone who is trying to justify keeping their snakes living in highly confined spaces. There are certain species that are well suited for such living. Garter snakes are not among them.Do you know why the shy snake is shy? Or the nervous snake is nervous? It's simple, he's taken from his home and put into an environment with a giant who keeps him in a box and wants to poke him and handle him. In nature, his instincts are screaming "predator" and they want to avoid you. After a set amount of time, and handling, the snake no longer sees the giant as a predator, just a giant warm tree. You could do the same thing with nearly every animal currently kept in captivity short of some higher thinking mammals, monitors, and king cobras.

Do define "their comfort of mind" for me? I've never had my snakes tell me what that is, or share with me how they want an enclosure set up. They don't speak english nor write, the only way I can tell if a snake is doing well or not, is if its healthy weight, has some activity, and is able to reproduce. If those are all met, why is my snake so neglected for living in a small bin?




Well said Karen. I'm not accusing or trying to say I'm right, you're wrong. Just voicing my concerns about using such an enclosure. Not saying it couldn't possibly work. I just don't think it's ideal and would be difficult. If you don't think so, then that is fine.I'm not saying I'm wrong or right, again, I have nothing against people who keep their animals in large enclosures, but at the same point they need to realize it's more for them than it is the snake itself. I also feel that the community who keeps snakes in large enclosures is overly harsh of those of us who keep them in smaller cages. We're told our small cages are "cruel and uncaring" when in all reality, my snakes in bins are just as healthy as yours in aquariums, it's a personal preference.

-Mike

[justme]

There is always room for improvement and as hobbyists, we owe it to the animals we keep, to continue the pursuit of good captive care. "Common Practice in the reptile hobby" does not mean one should stay complacent in our knowledge of animals and should also not limit the exploration of all areas which may also include one's own feelings of morality and ethicalness regarding captive care.

Thank you Richard for understanding the point I was trying to make and for sharing your views (you and I are on the same page). I don't look down on anyone here. In fact I feel grateful such a forum exists. The knowledge shared by each member is phenomenal!

[Millinex]

There is always room for improvement and as hobbyists, we owe it to the animals we keep, to continue the pursuit of good captive care. "Common Practice in the reptile hobby" does not mean one should stay complacent in our knowledge of animals and should also not limit the exploration of all areas which may also include one's own feelings of morality and ethicalness regarding captive care.

Thank you Richard for understanding the point I was trying to make and for sharing your views (you and I are on the same page). I don't look down on anyone here. In fact I feel grateful such a forum exists. The knowledge shared by each member is phenomenal!
Sure there is always room for improvement. However, snakes have been kept this way for many many years, with no ill effects. Hundreds of breeders use rack systems, and the animals are always healthy, and disease free. I can honestly say I have never met a breeder who keeps his animals in tubs with sick animals, starving, dieing etc. I can say however, I have met a ton of people who keep the animals in other forms of caging that are sick, dead, dieing, malnourished, RIs etc etc. Frankly it's easier to maintain the snakes health in a small environment, wouldn't it be better than for the animals sake? I fail to see how I'm staying "complacent in my knowledge" simply because I employ a proven method of raising healthy captive snakes. Again, I have not bashed the idea of keeping the animal in a larger cage, if that's what you want, more power to you, but don't look down on me for the fact I keep my animals differently.

It can work both ways, I recently got a pair of ball pythons in awful shape. They had a large 50g tank, plants, hides, water dish, bark, expensive lights and heat pads. Probably $300+ easily into the setup. I keep them now in a 3 foot long bin from walmart that cost me all of about $10, along with a single heat pad, a small pan of water, and paper towels. The entire setup was probably around $30 if even that, and the animals are far healthier after less than a week with me, than their entire lives in a large enclosure, all because I can properly regulate the conditions in the smaller bin.

-Mike

[Stefan-A]

However, snakes have been kept this way for many many years, with no ill effects.
The thing is, how do we know it's not a case of confirmation bias?

[Millinex]

The thing is, how do we know it's not a case of confirmation bias?
I can't really say it isn't. Although, if the snake is proven to live in these conditions and thrive for multiple years, reproduce, and die at an age older than the wild, but equally as long if not longer than animals kept in other enclosures, than how is it a confirmation bias? There have never been any studies saying snakes have any sort of rational thinking ability, and thus only operate on instinct alone. If you meet those basic needs who's to say the snake is suffering more in the smaller cage?

After watching all sorts of problems/malfunctions/bad husbandry that lead to the snakes accidental death; I'll stick with my uniform rack that has never failed me and given me awesome snakes as healthy, if not healthier than any custom enclosure snakes.

-Mike

[kibakiba]

Imo, it's not healthy if a snake just lays there. They need exercise. The snakes I have get taken out every couple days to be put in a warm bath, in the grass if its warm and dry outside or on the floor so they can move. I don't know how people can like snakes that lay there like they're dead all day unless they're hungry or thirsty. That's like humans nowadays and look at how big people are getting.

[Millinex]

Imo, it's not healthy if a snake just lays there. They need exercise. The snakes I have get taken out every couple days to be put in a warm bath, in the grass if its warm and dry outside or on the floor so they can move. I don't know how people can like snakes that lay there like they're dead all day unless they're hungry or thirsty. That's like humans nowadays and look at how big people are getting.

Again, you're comparing the snake to humans on an extreme level. It is 100% against the snakes instincts to want to "exercise and explore". If you where a baby snake in the wild, who ventured out for anything other than absolute necessities, you would be a defective snake with bad genes, and some random critter would surely eat you. The snake does not "lay around" and get fat like humans, the snake lays around because it's safe in it's environment, and going out and "exploring" in it's natural setting would lead to it getting preyed upon.

Sometimes it amazes me how much people want to compare 2 completely different species with completely different needs. One of which has a highly complex brain to one that has an extremely basic and primitive brain. If you where comparing elephants or dolphins to humans in terms of "needing" things, than I could see your point, however a snake? Not a chance.

This is part of the reason I no longer keep snakes in such volume or interest as I used to, as a healthy snake isn't a very fun snake to watch or interact with. Now give me a half starved snake, and that animal will make an excellent display/captive critter with how much he'll move around his enclosure desperately trying to find food. My snakes I have now are strictly for the commercial pet industry (with the exception of my girlfriends few snakes).

[Stefan-A]

I can't really say it isn't. Although, if the snake is proven to live in these conditions and thrive for multiple years, reproduce, and die at an age older than the wild, but equally as long if not longer than animals kept in other enclosures, than how is it a confirmation bias?
Well, that snake may be an exception that's not acknowledged by the keeper as one. He may take that one case into consideration and completely overlook the 99 others that lived a significantly shorter life under the same conditions, compared to the other group.

That's something that people do frequently. People take one or a few cases that seem to confirm what they expect and completely ignore or downplay the cases that either don't confirm the theory, or outright disprove it. Examples would be to allow cases of mistreatment, or differences in the skills of the keepers in a comparison between two housing solutions.

Unless the risk of confirmation bias has been eliminated, nothing has really been proven.

People also suck at noticing statistically significant differences.

[kibakiba]

I'm not comparing them to humans exactly. An opinion is an opinion. Snakes can get fat, and thus need exercise. Its the same with all animals if you feed them and feed them and they never move, eventually they become a fat, boring lump. I got into garters because they are more active, they move and from my experience they need to move. I don't really care what your experience is with them. My garters move around a lot. It seems cruel to put them in a tiny container and say that they're happy.
My snakes are well fed, they move a lot after eating and they have muscles, what happens when something doesn't use it's muscles? They disappear. They have to work their muscles if they're to stay strong.

Again, this is my opinion. If you don't like it, then too bad. My snakes are 100% healthy in their large, spacious and decorated tanks.

[Millinex]

Well, that snake may be an exception that's not acknowledged by the keeper as one. He may take that one case into consideration and completely overlook the 99 others that lived a significantly shorter life under the same conditions, compared to the other group.

That's something that people do frequently. People take one or a few cases that seem to confirm what they expect and completely ignore or downplay the cases that either don't confirm the theory, or outright disprove it. Examples would be to allow cases of mistreatment, or differences in the skills of the keepers in a comparison between two housing solutions.

Unless the risk of confirmation bias has been eliminated, nothing has really been proven.

People also suck at noticing statistically significant differences.
I have a hard time believing that 1/100 snakes are kept successfully in a rack system. If someone has gone to the effort of having a rack system it's generally because they have a large number or are breeding. In either case the owner knows enough about the animal to understand basic husbandry and follow through on its basic needs. The idea that the snake would die simply because it doesn't have a large cage with branches logs and rocks is simply ******** if I'm going to be honest.

I also fail to see how branches/rocks/a large cage would significantly increase a snakes lifespan, since they ARE NOT essential to the snakes life. It simply goes against the basic understanding of the snake itself to claim it lives a shorter life based upon those factors, because the snake does not "think". In terms of dismissing other cases, I'm not at all. I've seen baby snakes in racks die because they don't eat, but then again, baby snakes die all the time, some never start to eat regardless of conditions. However, look at the people who keep snakes in tubs/racks, they do so because they have the large number and understand the snake. Look at how many ****** middle class individuals go out and purchase a fancy cage, fancy lights, heat pad, this and that, but FAIL to meet the snakes basic needs? I'm not saying anyone here is ********, but it's for examples sake.

Give 2 super experienced keepers 10 baby garter snakes, one with racks, one with large terrariums/enclosures, in both situations the snakes will end up about the same, because the factors determining the snakes healthiness are simple: food, water, heat, humidity, light. Nothing else matters or will define how well the snake grows or lives. If you want to argue a puppy kept in a house with toys will develop better than a puppy in a cage sure, I'm all for that, however, puppies have significantly higher levels of intelligence than a snake.


I'm not comparing them to humans exactly. An opinion is an opinion. Snakes can get fat, and thus need exercise. Its the same with all animals if you feed them and feed them and they never move, eventually they become a fat, boring lump. I got into garters because they are more active, they move and from my experience they need to move. I don't really care what your experience is with them. My garters move around a lot. It seems cruel to put them in a tiny container and say that they're happy.
My snakes are well fed, they move a lot after eating and they have muscles, what happens when something doesn't use it's muscles? They disappear. They have to work their muscles if they're to stay strong.

Again, this is my opinion. If you don't like it, then too bad. My snakes are 100% healthy in their large, spacious and decorated tanks.
Snakes get fat because of OWNERS. Again, take a look at the way the snake reacts in nature, they are opportunistic feeders. If they get a chance to eat, and eat a lot of it, they will, because they don't know when the next meal will be. That's what makes snakes so fascinating, the ability to eat a huge meal, then go months without food. Stick the snake in a tiny enclosure and feed it over and over, the snake will rarely turn down food, of course it will be fat, its instincts are to eat because who knows when next meal is! Any snake keeper who offers as much food as the snake can eat daily is just asking for health problems, and probably knows absolutely nothing in regards to reptile husbandry in general.

Again, the snake is moving in your enclosure because there is some XYZ requirement that is not being met by YOU the provider. We use the same type of saying in the varanid keeping group: if your monitor is at the front of its cage, constantly trying to get out, it doesn't want to play, it's not being taken care of right and needs its husbandry re-evaluated.

Also, I never claimed my snake was "happy" in his small cage. I'm stating snakes DO NOT HAVE EMOTION. The snake is not "happy" the snake does not have feelings, emotion, love, care, any of that. All of those features belong to social mammals, not solitary reptiles. The snakes needs are being met, and it is content on living its natural life hiding in its safe box until it's next meal. Also in terms of "not working muscles" I have yet to see this in any tub-raised individuals. I can safely say you can take my tub raised bull snake, or pine snake, up against most constrictors and they'll give them a run for their money, because despite sitting in a tub almost all their lives, except for educational shows, they have a tremendous amount of power.

I'm not trying to be harsh, however the idea that a snake is "happy" is both ridiculous and stupid.

[justme]

Chantel, I too believe that garters should have enough room to stretch out.

There is activeness, alertness and then there is pacing and nose-rubbing. A significant difference between the two!

This thread has seriously inspired me to bring out the whisky (sadly the most profound statement I've made all day). Folks, I wish we could all have a drink together and lighten up. Good grief!!! ;-)

[Millinex]

Chantel, I too believe that garters should have enough room to stretch out.

There is activeness, alertness and then there is pacing and nose-rubbing. A significant difference between the two!

This thread has seriously inspired me to bring out the whisky (sadly the most profound statement I've made all day). Folks, I wish we could all have a drink together and lighten up. Good grief!!! ;-)
I'm very relaxed; however, if there is one thing that really annoys the hell out of me, it's the idea that a snake has feelings, is happy, or "loves". These things simply aren't true. I have nothing against people who want to keep their snakes in large cages, hell my 3 garters had a 155 gallon back when they where my display animals, and pets. However, the idea that a snake can't be perfectly healthy in a rack system is probably hands down the stupidest things I have ever heard.

[drache]

while I am not in principle opposed to rack systems, I note that I often think of them as appropriate for species I have no experience with, and no desire to keep
I do think they are a great convenience for people who keep large amounts of animals, and they help to provide sanitary conditions in settings where that is needed
however - the argument that snakes don't have the urge to move unless something prompts them is just as anthropomorphic as the claim that they need branches - and perhaps not entirely accidental
according to my vet, obesity is in fact the #1 underlying cause in the majority of disorders affecting captive animals
isn't that because we expect them to live like us? (in cubicles or on a couch, with no exercise or appropriate diet, just as long as there is climate control)
we do all thrive in this setting too, don't we?
this has nothing to do with emotional states - it's basic physiology
in the wild, exercise is a built-in factor of feeding, and on a purely physiological level muscle tone is not entirely irrelevant to metabolism
and - "feelings" aside - there is a case to be made for the option to self-regulate
I don't think it kills a snake to be in a tub, and I don't know that they "miss" stimulation or exercise, and I do have one snake that might as well be housed in a tub
they do become more interesting when given the opportunity to move around; even my much more sedentary kings and hogs do more than lie around between meals

[Millinex]

while I am not in principle opposed to rack systems, I note that I often think of them as appropriate for species I have no experience with, and no desire to keep
I do think they are a great convenience for people who keep large amounts of animals, and they help to provide sanitary conditions in settings where that is needed
however - the argument that snakes don't have the urge to move unless something prompts them is just as anthropomorphic as the claim that they need branches - and perhaps not entirely accidental
according to my vet, obesity is in fact the #1 underlying cause in the majority of disorders affecting captive animals
isn't that because we expect them to live like us? (in cubicles or on a couch, with no exercise or appropriate diet, just as long as there is climate control)
we do all thrive in this setting too, don't we?
this has nothing to do with emotional states - it's basic physiology
in the wild, exercise is a built-in factor of feeding, and on a purely physiological level muscle tone is not entirely irrelevant to metabolism
and - "feelings" aside - there is a case to be made for the option to self-regulate
I don't think it kills a snake to be in a tub, and I don't know that they "miss" stimulation or exercise, and I do have one snake that might as well be housed in a tub
they do become more interesting when given the opportunity to move around; even my much more sedentary kings and hogs do more than lie around between meals
While your vet may say that, he also needs to take into account that the majority of pets he sees, the animals the statistic comes from, are dogs, cats, rodents, horses. Again social animals. While rodents are also prey animals they also have much more complex brains than a snake, which promotes things like problem solving and doing other "things" rather than just hiding.

I fail to see how understanding how a snake works is anthropomorphic? I don't live in a small cubicle or box, no healthy human does. This is because of the simple fact we are a higher thinking being, we require certain stimuli other than the basic needs of life in order to thrive. A healthy human needs mental as well as physical exercise daily, just as primates in a zoo are required to have enrichment items, because they are essential to a healthy animal.

Yes, I agree that exercise and food go hand in hand, the process of finding and catching food; however, from what I've seen and studied, snakes are some of the most efficient predators on earth, and their bodies don't exactly behave in the same way that other animals do. I really don't feel it's acceptable to compare a snake to the majority of the animals that we keep in the pet trade.

Observe your king/hogs in the enclosure. Take a look at what they are doing and study it closely, learn how to read the body language of the snake and what exactly it's after. The funny part is, as I was typing this last night my girlfriends ball python decided to slither out of his hide. Where did he go? He ended up wedging himself up along the upper lip of the showcase cage where he felt more secure, he spent all of about 5 minutes "out" and was quickly back into "hide" mode. He isn't afraid of humans, her cats, anything, however his instincts will tell him to spend his time hiding from possible danger.

-Mike

[RedSidedSPR]

Wow. I'm starting to think this thread was a bad idea:D Kidding. I'm actually enjoying this. But I'll have to say, I'm on Richard/Chantles, side. I believe they do need exercise and all that. They are not always inactive even if they just ate. I've had my garter eat 12 fish and a nightcrawler, nice and fat, and then go climb on the big tree thing in his 20gal tank. Obviously not hungry. I also think that once they've been in captivity (or in most cases born in captivity) they will lose their fear of being prey. I've seen snakes come up to the glass, begging to be picked up. While that will very likely means he wants food (even if he's not really hungry), he isn't worrying about being eaten. He likes being out of his cage, but not because of any discomfort. Ask Steve. He took his snake to the vet in his coat hood. They usually have a reason to come out, like you say, but they do need exercise, and they do explore. He isn't climbing that tree looking for pinkies. And he isn't climbing up your arm worrying about being eaten. I think keeping a little snake in a little tank is okay, but I think keeping him in a big tank is better. If you have the choice, for the snakes sake, get the bigger. But if it's a temporary quarantine or other reason, he'll be fine in a small tank. Just my opinion.

[ConcinusMan]

I also fail to see how branches/rocks/a large cage would significantly increase a snakes lifespan, since they ARE NOT essential to the snakes life.

Apparently that's not the only thing you fail to see, but then again, can't do much observing if your snakes are in tubs or racks.


Also, I never claimed my snake was "happy" in his small cage. I'm stating snakes DO NOT HAVE EMOTION.
I'm not trying to be harsh, however the idea that a snake is "happy" is both ridiculous and stupid.

You sound so sure. I am sure they do have some basic emotions. Perhaps not as complex, and definitely not expressed in a familiar way, but they are there. To assume that certain animals have emotion while others absolutely cannot possibly have them, is what is ridiculous here. I'm not saying that they have the same emotions we do, I'm not saying your snake is going to love you or feel affection, but to say they have no emotion at all is ludicrous.


puppies have significantly higher levels of intelligence than a snake..

That is questionable. To be honest, I've plenty of snakes, particularly large adult female garter snakes, display more intelligence than your average dog. I often am able to "train" even a freshly caught wild snake, to trust me, to come to me, and even to know the difference between feeding time and a water change and it often only takes a day or two to accomplish that. Something that often takes much longer for your average dog to learn. Some of these female garter snakes I have are sharp as a tack. Can't even say that about all of my dogs.

[infernalis]

By definition anger and fear are emotions. reptiles clearly display both.

[justme]

Millinex wrote: This is part of the reason I no longer keep snakes in such volume or interest as I used to, as a healthy snake isn't a very fun snake to watch or interact with. Now give me a half starved snake, and that animal will make an excellent display/captive critter with how much he'll move around his enclosure desperately trying to find food.

------------

If you no longer find enjoyment in watching and interacting with a "healthy" snake - thus losing interest, what brings you here to this forum? I feel this is a fair question to ask you.

[RedSidedSPR]

Apparently that's not the only thing you fail to see, but then again, can't do much observing if your snakes are in tubs or racks.

Ouch. Nice one. Kidding. But I do agree with Richard. They do have emotions, and they have more intelligence than you might think. Not saying you don't know what you're talking about, and I respect your opinion, but...
And I do think Dogs are more intelligence than snakes. Maybe not an early-stage puppy, though. And yes they display fear and anger. Emotions. Now they don't feel LOVE, I'll give you that, but they obviously have emotions. Alot of stuff is INSTINCTS, but they DO have EMOTIONS. (arguing is a hobby for me, as with Richard, don't take it personal.)

[RedSidedSPR]

Millinex wrote: This is part of the reason I no longer keep snakes in such volume or interest as I used to, as a healthy snake isn't a very fun snake to watch or interact with. Now give me a half starved snake, and that animal will make an excellent display/captive critter with how much he'll move around his enclosure desperately trying to find food.

------------

If you no longer find enjoyment in watching and interacting with a "healthy" snake - thus losing interest, what brings you here to this forum? I feel this is a fair question to ask you.

Very fair question. If you don't like healthy snakes, you can't like snakes. Don't tell me you starve your snakes for your own enjoyment.

[infernalis]

One of the reasons so many of us here like Garter Snakes is their dynamic nature. These snakes will constantly peer out into the room, are frequently on the move providing a rather dynamic visual display.

Larger snakes tend to feed and hide, feed and hide. that's about it.

These little guys have ADHD real bad and don't seem to adhere to the "rules"

[Millinex]

Wow. I'm starting to think this thread was a bad idea:D Kidding. I'm actually enjoying this. But I'll have to say, I'm on Richard/Chantles, side. I believe they do need exercise and all that. They are not always inactive even if they just ate. I've had my garter eat 12 fish and a nightcrawler, nice and fat, and then go climb on the big tree thing in his 20gal tank. Obviously not hungry. I also think that once they've been in captivity (or in most cases born in captivity) they will lose their fear of being prey. I've seen snakes come up to the glass, begging to be picked up. While that will very likely means he wants food (even if he's not really hungry), he isn't worrying about being eaten. He likes being out of his cage, but not because of any discomfort. Ask Steve. He took his snake to the vet in his coat hood. They usually have a reason to come out, like you say, but they do need exercise, and they do explore. He isn't climbing that tree looking for pinkies. And he isn't climbing up your arm worrying about being eaten. I think keeping a little snake in a little tank is okay, but I think keeping him in a big tank is better. If you have the choice, for the snakes sake, get the bigger. But if it's a temporary quarantine or other reason, he'll be fine in a small tank. Just my opinion.
Have you ever thought that the reason it was on top of the said plant after eating, was it was a better temperature gradient for digesting its meal? No, clearly the snake wasn't adjusting itself for proper temps to digest, it was clearly out playing and wanting to interact. Also, the snake isn't "begging" to be picked up, the temperatures etc in his cage are not correct for his immediate needs and he wants out, to find somewhere that is correct.
They do not need exercise, they get enough of that when eating/drinking or moving to a new area of the enclosure for proper temps, and he certainly isn't exploring because it seems like a fun idea. Again, it would would be a genetic impossibility, as these animals have no real defense from predators, and would be wiped out.


Apparently that's not the only thing you fail to see, but then again, can't do much observing if your snakes are in tubs or racks.
Again, because perhaps you where too dense to read the fact I've stated multiple times that I have kept snakes in both situations. I housed 3 garters in a 155 5x2.5x3 cage for over a year before I moved them. So I suggest learning some basic reading before trying to get hostile with me, because you won't go far.


You sound so sure. I am sure they do have some basic emotions. Perhaps not as complex, and definitely not expressed in a familiar way, but they are there. To assume certain animals have emotion while others absolutely cannot possibly have them, is what is ridiculous here. I'm not saying that they have the same emotions we do, I'm not saying your snake is going to love you or feel affection, but to say they have no emotion at all is ludicrous.
Emotions where developed for social animals, animals with highly developed brains in which to communicate and work as a team, to look after each other. I have never witnessed anything of the sort with snakes. Snakes do not problem solve, work as a team, care for each other, etc. Emotion in and of itself would have no place in a solitary animal run by instinct.



That is questionable. To be honest, I've plenty of snakes, particularly large adult female garter snakes, display more intelligence than your average dog. I often am able to "train" even a freshly caught wild snake, to trust me, to come to me, and even to know the difference between feeding time and a water change and it often only takes a day or two to accomplish that. Something that often takes much longer for your average dog to learn. Some of these female garter snakes I have are sharp as a tack. Can't even say that about all of my dogs.
I'd really love to see some sort of video proof of a snake having some sort of higher thinking and brain power. I hate to say it but recognizing the water dish as water is not exactly higher thinking. Neither is "he knows when it's food time". Why is this you ask? In nature they know to associate certain things with certain results, in captivity it really is absolutely no different. When you open the door, you change the atmosphere, wind, temps, humidity etc and the snake can tell these things. At some point they realize that this = food. That doesn't mean he's thought about it, problem solved, and came to a conclusion.



By definition anger and fear are emotions. reptiles clearly display both.
Anger? Please do define "anger" in a reptile? All reactions including a snake puffing/hissing/biting/musking are programmed self protection methods that are followed by instinct. If you want to use the term fear for it, go ahead, however I believe the snake is already programmed to do certain things in response to certain stimuli.



If you no longer find enjoyment in watching and interacting with a "healthy" snake - thus losing interest, what brings you here to this forum? I feel this is a fair question to ask you.
I don't, because there is no real interaction between a snake and a person, the snake doesn't have the desire to be with me, etc. I'm here on this forum because I keep snakes, I breed and sell multiple species including garters. I used to keep several of them, and have nothing against them.


Very fair question. If you don't like healthy snakes, you can't like snakes. Don't tell me you starve your snakes for your own enjoyment.
No, I feed my snakes every 5-7 days in appropriate size meals. However, I keep them in tubs/bins and not on display, the displays are all of my monitors, which I've found more interesting. Also, it's not a matter of not liking snakes, or liking healthy snakes. I don't enjoy the keeping of snakes on the same level as some people. I love and appreciate reptiles, I enjoy catching snakes and rearing them in my home. However, over 15 years I've observed how a healthy snake behaves, and they just don't make awesome display animals that are tons of fun for me. Some people really enjoy snakes, some of us like them, and keep them, but certainly aren't dedicating our lives to them or proposing they have any human characteristics.


One of the reasons so many of us here like Garter Snakes is their dynamic nature. These snakes will constantly peer out into the room, are frequently on the move providing a rather dynamic visual display.

Larger snakes tend to feed and hide, feed and hide. that's about it.

These little guys have ADHD real bad and don't seem to adhere to the "rules"
You like garter snakes because they are diurnal foragers. Not because they are dynamic. They are peering out in the middle of the day to see if it's a safe time to search for food, if safe, they will actively hunt. Most large snakes- boas/pythons etc, are nocturnal, and have no reason to be out and about, also their thicker/heavier bodies expend much more energy so "cruising around" isn't exactly a viable option for them.

-Mike

[RedSidedSPR]

Have you ever thought that the reason it was on top of the said plant after eating, was it was a better temperature gradient for digesting its meal? No, clearly the snake wasn't adjusting itself for proper temps to digest, it was clearly out playing and wanting to interact. Also, the snake isn't "begging" to be picked up, the temperatures etc in his cage are not correct for his immediate needs and he wants out, to find somewhere that is correct.
They do not need exercise, they get enough of that when eating/drinking or moving to a new area of the enclosure for proper temps, and he certainly isn't exploring because it seems like a fun idea. Again, it would would be a genetic impossibility, as these animals have no real defense from predators, and would be wiped out.


The left side of his tank is room temperature. The right is heated. The tree is on the LEFT side. If he is perfectly content, (which he usually is) why would he be wanting out if the left side is the same as outside?
Another thing I'll throw at you and hope you have a good answer, is:
When I put new objects in his tank, he goes and checks them out. One time I was trying to put him in a separate container while I cleaned his cage, (this was when he still feared me recently after I caught him) and I didn't want to pick him up. So I put the container in the cage in front of his hide, KNOWING his CURIOSITY, would get the better of him, and it did. He immediately went into the container checking it out.

How does a garter stay fit if he never moves?



I'd really love to see some sort of video proof of a snake having some sort of higher thinking and brain power. I hate to say it but recognizing the water dish as water is not exactly higher thinking. Neither is "he knows when it's food time". Why is this you ask? In nature they know to associate certain things with certain results, in captivity it really is absolutely no different. When you open the door, you change the atmosphere, wind, temps, humidity etc and the snake can tell these things. At some point they realize that this = food. That doesn't mean he's thought about it, problem solved, and came to a conclusion.


some of that is true, but that dosn't prove anything against them having feelings.




Anger? Please do define "anger" in a reptile? All reactions including a snake puffing/hissing/biting/musking are programmed self protection methods that are followed by instinct. If you want to use the term fear for it, go ahead, however I believe the snake is already programmed to do certain things in response to certain stimuli.


I'll agree with you there, it's more self-defense and fear than anger, but that dosn't prove anything against them having other emotions. Very few animals feel anger, even the extremely intelligent ones.



No, I feed my snakes every 5-7 days in appropriate size meals. However, I keep them in tubs/bins and not on display, the displays are all of my monitors, which I've found more interesting. Also, it's not a matter of not liking snakes, or liking healthy snakes. I don't enjoy the keeping of snakes on the same level as some people. I love and appreciate reptiles, I enjoy catching snakes and rearing them in my home. However, over 15 years I've observed how a healthy snake behaves, and they just don't make awesome display animals that are tons of fun for me. Some people really enjoy snakes, some of us like them, and keep them, but certainly aren't dedicating our lives to them or proposing they have any human characteristics.


How can you enjoy them moving around when they do, if they're in tubs? If they're in plastic container (do they even have light?), why would they move around? There is nothing there but bedding, a hide, and a water bowl. But if you put lots of objects in his tank he'll be exploring a lot more. Try it.


You like garter snakes because they are diurnal foragers. Not because they are dynamic. They are peering out in the middle of the day to see if it's a safe time to search for food, if safe, they will actively hunt. Most large snakes- boas/pythons etc, are nocturnal, and have no reason to be out and about, also their thicker/heavier bodies expend much more energy so "cruising around" isn't exactly a viable option for them.

Corn snakes are diurnal. But they don't move around (explore) half as much as garters. They sit there in their hide waiting until you hand them food. Often the same size as garters. (big female ones at least). But garters are a lot more active. My snake was sitting on my bed the other day. I set my iPod a foot away from him and went and got my headphones. I came back 15seconds later and he was checking out my iPod. Not temperature difference, no food involved, nothing but the need to check out that random object. Curiosity. Is that an emotion? Cause they have it. They are VERY curious.

[Millinex]

The left side of his tank is room temperature. The right is heated. The tree is on the LEFT side. If he is perfectly content, (which he usually is) why would he be wanting out if the left side is the same as outside?
Simple, the snakes internal thermometer is telling it that a certain area/humidity/temp is better at the time. It wasn't him having fun exploring it was his body regulating.


Another thing I'll throw at you and hope you have a good answer, is:
When I put new objects in his tank, he goes and checks them out. One time I was trying to put him in a separate container while I cleaned his cage, (this was when he still feared me recently after I caught him) and I didn't want to pick him up. So I put the container in the cage in front of his hide, KNOWING his CURIOSITY, would get the better of him, and it did. He immediately went into the container checking it out.
If it was still while has flighty, and jumpy, I would come to the conclusion you placed the container over his only exit. A lot of times when you do this, the animal goes into a flight response, in an attempt to get out. You've just basically sealed him in his hide, he doesn't want to be stuck there without food/water/etc and will attempt to flee and leave the area. I've noticed this a lot with snakes actually, even using a solid piece of black cloth will a lot of times, trigger the animal to go right through it trying to get out.


How does a garter stay fit if he never moves?
Snakes are designed for minimal effort, for one, garters are not amazingly strong in terms of comparison to other snakes. Eating, digesting, moving for water, to lay on various parts of the tub or under the substrate are all more than enough to maintain his muscle. Also, I notice around day 4-6 the snakes become more active, because they have finished digesting the last meal, and the next one is imminent.



some of that is true, but that dosn't prove anything against them having feelings.
Basic understanding of animal psychology alone proves that the snake has no feelings, and has no use for them.



I'll agree with you there, it's more self-defense and fear than anger, but that dosn't prove anything against them having other emotions. Very few animals feel anger, even the extremely intelligent ones.
I can safely say the only animals I really see "anger" in, are primates, I haven't heard or seen it in any ungulates, herps, or carnivores.



How can you enjoy them moving around when they do, if they're in tubs? If they're in plastic container (do they even have light?), why would they move around? There is nothing there but bedding, a hide, and a water bowl. But if you put lots of objects in his tank he'll be exploring a lot more. Try it.
I don't enjoy them moving in the tub, that's why they are in the tub... My girlfriend went and purchased the very expensive showcase cages for her 3 snakes. I can honestly say, 2/3 snakes in the enclosures are 100% boring animals to watch, they do not move, interact, anything, they act like typical healthy snakes, hiding. The last snake was my 7 foot northern pine snake. She was out roaming with some frequency, because of how we fed her, when we switched to feeding jumbo rats every 5-7 days, she became much more complacent and would also just sit in the back of the cage, curled up, not moving. I can assure you I've "tried it" with multiple species, including boas, pythons, garters, corns, bulls, pines, and even a rattlesnake. They all will react in the same basic fashion. The only snake I will give some form of credit to, in terms of "intelligence" based on my personal experiences with the animal- is the king cobra.



Corn snakes are diurnal. But they don't move around (explore) half as much as garters. They sit there in their hide waiting until you hand them food. Often the same size as garters. (big female ones at least). But garters are a lot more active. My snake was sitting on my bed the other day. I set my iPod a foot away from him and went and got my headphones. I came back 15seconds later and he was checking out my iPod. Not temperature difference, no food involved, nothing but the need to check out that random object. Curiosity. Is that an emotion? Cause they have it. They are VERY curious.
I'd really debate that whole thought. From most of my field observations and captive observations, in both a tub/aquarium setting corns are FAR more active at night, because their most common prey (mice) are also far more active at night.
As for your ipod, I'd be more inclined to say the snake was interested in the fact its electronic. I've seen many many animals either gravitate straight towards or straight away from electromagnetic currents caused by our various gadgets. My snakes will right up to my cellphone to, it's a sense animals pick up on well, that we as humans do not.

[Stefan-A]

I have a hard time believing that 1/100 snakes are kept successfully in a rack system.
That's a misrepresentation of what I was saying. 1/100 was an example of an extreme, but not impossible scenario. It could just as well have been 99/100 and it would still apply.


If someone has gone to the effort of having a rack system it's generally because they have a large number or are breeding. In either case the owner knows enough about the animal to understand basic husbandry and follow through on its basic needs.Not relevant to what I was commenting on. Also, it has no effect on the enclosure's properties, which was the subject. Skill can compensate for deficient solutions and make them seem "as good as, or better than" the alternative solution. So the skill is irrelevant to the discussion.



The idea that the snake would die simply because it doesn't have a large cage with branches logs and rocks is simply ******** if I'm going to be honest.Not what I was talking about.


In terms of dismissing other cases, I'm not at all.I'm not saying you are, I'm saying that it can't be ruled out in cases like this. It's a simple fact that it is something that people do without realizing it. The implication is of course that when it hasn't been properly investigated, all statements on the topic might as well start with the abbreviation "IMO".


I've seen baby snakes in racks die because they don't eat, but then again, baby snakes die all the time, some never start to eat regardless of conditions.I agree. I'm sure you're not suggesting that there can be no difference in how frequently it happens under different conditions.


However, look at the people who keep snakes in tubs/racks,No, don't look at the people. Those are variables that need to be eliminated if you're going to make a comparison between housing solutions.



they do so because they have the large number and understand the snake. I agree with the first part, but the second does not follow. It may be the case, but I've seen enough nitwits with large quantities of snakes, often but not always housed in racks, to understand that the two are not necessarily connected.


Look at how many ****** middle class individuals go out and purchase a fancy cage, fancy lights, heat pad, this and that, Or 50 snakes and a rack. That's another reason to not take the keeper into consideration when you compare enclosures.


Give 2 super experienced keepers 10 baby garter snakes, one with racks, one with large terrariums/enclosures,I haven't done the calculations of how many individuals would be needed in experiments like this, but I'm pretty sure 10 isn't nearly enough. An experiment wouldn't have much validity with a sample size that small. You might need to add a zero or two to detect a statistically significant difference.


in both situations the snakes will end up about the same, because the factors determining the snakes healthiness are simple: food, water, heat, humidity, light. Nothing else matters or will define how well the snake grows or lives.That would be a hypothesis that a person would set out to disprove by setting up the experiment and tossing in a variable, such as the enclosure type.


If you want to argue a puppy kept in a house with toys will develop better than a puppy in a cage sure, I'm all for that, however, puppies have significantly higher levels of intelligence than a snake.Intelligence isn't necessarily key.

And just to make my position clear here: My problem is not with racks. I'm perfectly open to the possibility that they may be worse than, as good as, or better than other enclosures. But I want it shown and I will wipe my *** on anecdotes, guesses and beliefs in regards to that question.

[drache]

I am not sufficiently invested in the pros and cons of rack systems to carry on in this discussion, but there is one thing you said, Mike, that I wish to address

While your vet may say that, he also needs to take into account that the majority of pets he sees, the animals the statistic comes from, are dogs, cats, rodents, horses.
My vet is a herp vet who sees reptiles as a big part of his practice, and while he likely does see more mammals, just because that's what most people keep, he treats reptiles for herp and turtle rescues, as well as those of the Wildlife Conservation Society - that is the Bronx Zoo. He probably sees more reptiles than your average herp vet, and I would think that majority of them are captive. When he talked about the issue, it was in regards to reptiles.

[infernalis]

I use both here without problems and there are pros & cons to each.

If a snake regurgitates it's meal into the substrate, you are more likely to notice it quickly and remove it when it happens behind glass.

In a rack, that regurgitated meal could sit there a while before you notice.

I have witnessed a snake attempt to re-eat a barfed up pinkie all covered in substrate, it was stopped and I threw the pinkie away.

If the snake starts convulsing, what chance of intervention is there if it is hidden away in a rack?

Many of us prefer to see our snakes, glass front vivs are the best way to observe your snakes without handling them.

[RedSidedSPR]

Simple, the snakes internal thermometer is telling it that a certain area/humidity/temp is better at the time. It wasn't him having fun exploring it was his body regulating.

What about at night? He does that stuff all the time shortly after I go to bed.




If it was still while has flighty, and jumpy, I would come to the conclusion you placed the container over his only exit. A lot of times when you do this, the animal goes into a flight response, in an attempt to get out. You've just basically sealed him in his hide, he doesn't want to be stuck there without food/water/etc and will attempt to flee and leave the area. I've noticed this a lot with snakes actually, even using a solid piece of black cloth will a lot of times, trigger the animal to go right through it trying to get out.

Wasn't like that. Not directly in front of his hide, off to the side. I can ASSURE you that was not why he did it. It's a clear plastic container FYI. Also he wasn't to flighty, just didn't like handling.




Snakes are designed for minimal effort, for one, garters are not amazingly strong in terms of comparison to other snakes. Eating, digesting, moving for water, to lay on various parts of the tub or under the substrate are all more than enough to maintain his muscle. Also, I notice around day 4-6 the snakes become more active, because they have finished digesting the last meal, and the next one is imminent.

I've noticed he hangs over his water bowl after 4 or so days but is just as active before that.




Basic understanding of animal psychology alone proves that the snake has no feelings, and has no use for them.

Basic observation shows otherwise. But you wouldn't know.



I can safely say the only animals I really see "anger" in, are primates, I haven't heard or seen it in any ungulates, herps, or carnivores.

I agree. I have no problem with agreeing with you when you're right.





I don't enjoy them moving in the tub, that's why they are in the tub... My girlfriend went and purchased the very expensive showcase cages for her 3 snakes. I can honestly say, 2/3 snakes in the enclosures are 100% boring animals to watch, they do not move, interact, anything, they act like typical healthy snakes, hiding. The last snake was my 7 foot northern pine snake. She was out roaming with some frequency, because of how we fed her, when we switched to feeding jumbo rats every 5-7 days, she became much more complacent and would also just sit in the back of the cage, curled up, not moving. I can assure you I've "tried it" with multiple species, including boas, pythons, garters, corns, bulls, pines, and even a rattlesnake. They all will react in the same basic fashion. The only snake I will give some form of credit to, in terms of "intelligence" based on my personal experiences with the animal- is the king cobra.

Wait... you have a king cobra? Awesome. Anyway, whatever. Garters move around a lot more than what you keep saying. You obviously just bore your snakes to the point where they sleep all day. Maybe it's the lack of light and view. Just blue plastic.




I'd really debate that whole thought. From most of my field observations and captive observations, in both a tub/aquarium setting corns are FAR more active at night, because their most common prey (mice) are also far more active at night.
As for your ipod, I'd be more inclined to say the snake was interested in the fact its electronic. I've seen many many animals either gravitate straight towards or straight away from electromagnetic currents caused by our various gadgets. My snakes will right up to my cellphone to, it's a sense animals pick up on well, that we as humans do not.

garters are without a doubt diurnal, yet my garter comes out and explores at night a lot. And you can be sure he wasnt regulating his body temperature.
As for the iPod, he did the same thing with a freaking easter egg.

[Millinex]

Sorry team, I've been out all day and now working on getting a couple new animals squared away, when I get a spare moment I'll reply to the above posts.

-Mike

[RedSidedSPR]

What are the new animals?

[Millinex]

What are the new animals?
Peach Throat, making the cage for my mangrove (when its not snowing), san diego gopher snake, and working on getting an adult female for my male mangrove. Busy weekend, my mind is in too many places to think straight haha.

[RedSidedSPR]

:DSheez...

[d_virginiana]

You said reptile or amphibian, and idk about snakes (it probably wouldn't hurt a snake, but I like to keep them in at least a 10 gallon), but there are definitely some pretty cool frogs out there that are easy to care for and don't need much space. (I've currently got a Pacman frog in a 5 gallon).
Probably other things too, but that's all I've got experience with.

[Sonya610]

Small size is easier to maintain those perfect temps/humidity etc for the individual animal, and easier for us to maintain as well. The snake will not suffer for a smaller cage, if anything, it may feel more secure in the smaller size.

Do define "their comfort of mind" for me? I've never had my snakes tell me what that is, or share with me how they want an enclosure set up. They don't speak english nor write, the only way I can tell if a snake is doing well or not, is if its healthy weight, has some activity, and is able to reproduce. If those are all met, why is my snake so neglected for living in a small bin?

...Again, you're being very anthropomorphic about these animals. They don't "explore the outdoors" because it goes against the natural instinct to survive, and they certainly just don't go around moving around because they just feel like it. Something in the environment, or lack of food, triggers the snake to need to relocate itself. As much as we may wish our snakes had thinking/problem solving skills like us, they simply don't.

I'm not saying I'm wrong or right, again, I have nothing against people who keep their animals in large enclosures, but at the same point they need to realize it's more for them than it is the snake itself. I also feel that the community who keeps snakes in large enclosures is overly harsh of those of us who keep them in smaller cages. We're told our small cages are "cruel and uncaring" when in all reality, my snakes in bins are just as healthy as yours in aquariums, it's a personal preference.


Ummmm...so you admit that keeping reptiles in small cheap containers is EASIER for YOU and then you go on to accuse those that choose larger naturalistic environments as doing "all for themself and not the animal".

Hmmmm...seems like a bit of a contradiction eh? Also "eating, being somewhat active, and reproducing" are not proof of much. Humans can and do survive in small prison cells for decades, an alien could peer down and say "now see, he eats everyday and breeds if given the chance therefore he must be content in that environment".

Fact is in nature Garters are fairly busy little guys, whether for food or heat or whatever. In a captive environment they are still hard wired to want some activity, and their nature does not change simply because they don't need to hunt for food constantly.

Humans have very LITTLE understanding of how most other species interpret their world. To think we understand them and their perception is quite ignorant and arrogant on our part. Keep in mind a few decades ago doctors "knew" that newborn human infants could NOT feel pain, they would perform major surgery on those infants and they were certain the cries and thrashing were involuntary responses that had NOTHING to do with actually suffering because the infants were physically incapable of experiencing real pain.

Twas proven! And we know a heck of a lot more regarding human infants than we do regarding how other species perceive their worlds.



Basic understanding of animal psychology alone proves that the snake has no feelings, and has no use for them.

We have NO real understanding regarding the psychology of most animals! Even the psychology of canines is hotly debated. How can anyone even pretend to understand their psychology when you yourself say they can't tell you what they are thinking?

[infernalis]

my mind is in too many places to think straight haha.

At least we agree on that subject.


I find the activity levels of Garter Snakes amusing to me.

Hiding this behind an opaque wall would defeat the entire purpose of having it. Beauty is to be admired, not hidden.

http://www.thamnophis.net/Gartersnakes/images/fire1.jpg

[guidofatherof5]

They are an active animal.
That's one of the things I love about them.
That and about a thousand other things.

[infernalis]

They are an active animal.
That's one of the things I love about them.
That and about a thousand other things.

List them all Steve:D

[RedSidedSPR]

I think you're a little out-voted Milinex. Garters are VERY active and should have room to explore.

FYI, guys, I'm probably not going keep anything in the 5gal other than maybe a Pacman frog. The next things I'm getting is another garter snake, and a water snake hopefully, both are going in 15-29 gal tanks. Thanks for your help on what can live in one though, I may use it, I may not.

And yeah, Steve list 'em all!!


Hey Wayne, you mind telling me what bedding you're using in that picture? I'd like to find something like that but they all have sand in them... and from what I've heard that's bad for garters.

[infernalis]

Hey Wayne, you mind telling me what bedding you're using in that picture? I'd like to find something like that but they all have sand in them... and from what I've heard that's bad for garters.


http://www.thamnophis.us/random/eco.jpg

[Sonya610]

Now they don't feel LOVE, I'll give you that, but they obviously have emotions. Alot of stuff is INSTINCTS, but they DO have EMOTIONS.

Two thoughts. First of all I am not sure they experience emotions like fear the way other animals (including humans do). It may be more of a preprogrammed automatic response but regardless it causes STRESS which is no doubt unpleasant for them. Likewise I do think they can experience pleasurable activities as well, chowing down on a good meal, lounging in the basking spot and enjoying the warmth, investigating the activities of the "giant" to see if they will offer food or provide some interesting interaction.

Is it "emotion" the way we sense it? I do not know but does that even matter? Pain/pleasure/stress/contentment is every bit as important, it defines the quality of life.

Regarding "instinct" vs. "emotion". Realize many (or possibly most) human emotions are based on instinct as well. The love for ones newborn baby (hormones surging), the feeling of protectiveness towards ones children, the bonding with sex partners (helpful in raising offspring successfully), the need to live in family groups and display forms of loyalty to associates. Those may seem like high and mighty "special" human attributes but many are based on INSTINCT and HORMONES and are designed to further our own survival and the survival of our offspring.

Studies have proven hormones (such as oxytocin) are responsible for much of the bonding that goes on among humans and other species. Introducing those hormones to animals that normally have low levels change their behavior instantly.

When comparing young puppies to snakes, keep in mind that snakes are expected to survive and have the basic mental faculties to do it right from the get go. Puppies, human babies, etc....are raised in family groups where the adults do most of the thinking for quite some time; they do not need to develop their intellect quite so rapidly, they can enjoy the luxury of being somewhat stupid as the family unit will protect them and provide for them.

[Sonya610]

http://www.thamnophis.us/random/eco.jpg

I bought some and thought about using it for the Garters. I am using it now for the ball python BUT it seems like it would be harder to spot clean compared to aspen.

BP's are a lot less poopy. Do you think it is as easy as aspen to clean? Takes a while to soak the stuff and dry it out so it if has to be replaced frequently that seems like a lot of hassle.

[Hornets23]

I have the perfect solution....get a SPIDER for the 5 gallon!

[ConcinusMan]

Darnit. I was busy for a few days and got left behind. I see the arguing took on a life of it's own. Seems I planted a seed. My job is done here.:p

[guidofatherof5]

List them all Steve:D



And yeah, Steve list 'em all!


I will begin work on it.:D

[infernalis]

I bought some and thought about using it for the Garters. I am using it now for the ball python BUT it seems like it would be harder to spot clean compared to aspen.

BP's are a lot less poopy. Do you think it is as easy as aspen to clean? Takes a while to soak the stuff and dry it out so it if has to be replaced frequently that seems like a lot of hassle.

I have experimented and found that using less water than the instructions call for, and manually busting the brick up yields a nice substrate without waiting for it to dry out.

It may be a slight hassle, but this stuff ships easy, and online deals are everywhere, so it's a good choice for me.

after the snakes have soiled it, re-use it as plant mulch.

[RedSidedSPR]

Darnit. I was busy for a few days and got left behind. I see the arguing took on a life of it's own. Seems I planted a seed. My job is done here.:p

Missed you, man. Arguing sucks without you. 'Specially if you're on my side:D


http://www.thamnophis.us/random/eco.jpg

Thanks. I've been looking for the best bedding other than Aspen. Is this one safe to ingest/digest? That's what I'm really wanting, since my snake won't eat in a separate container...

[RedSidedSPR]

Two thoughts. First of all I am not sure they experience emotions like fear the way other animals (including humans do). It may be more of a preprogrammed automatic response but regardless it causes STRESS which is no doubt unpleasant for them. Likewise I do think they can experience pleasurable activities as well, chowing down on a good meal, lounging in the basking spot and enjoying the warmth, investigating the activities of the "giant" to see if they will offer food or provide some interesting interaction.

Is it "emotion" the way we sense it? I do not know but does that even matter? Pain/pleasure/stress/contentment is every bit as important, it defines the quality of life.

Regarding "instinct" vs. "emotion". Realize many (or possibly most) human emotions are based on instinct as well. The love for ones newborn baby (hormones surging), the feeling of protectiveness towards ones children, the bonding with sex partners (helpful in raising offspring successfully), the need to live in family groups and display forms of loyalty to associates. Those may seem like high and mighty "special" human attributes but many are based on INSTINCT and HORMONES and are designed to further our own survival and the survival of our offspring.

Studies have proven hormones (such as oxytocin) are responsible for much of the bonding that goes on among humans and other species. Introducing those hormones to animals that normally have low levels change their behavior instantly.

When comparing young puppies to snakes, keep in mind that snakes are expected to survive and have the basic mental faculties to do it right from the get go. Puppies, human babies, etc....are raised in family groups where the adults do most of the thinking for quite some time; they do not need to develop their intellect quite so rapidly, they can enjoy the luxury of being somewhat stupid as the family unit will protect them and provide for them.

I keep using the word: emotions, but what you said is what I (mostly) meant. Pleasure etc. are feeling and I've been saying that too.

[zooplan]

Back to the well of this thread I like to ask ( again?)
What size ( height, width, length ) is a five gallon tank.
It´s so unususal to type a terrarium by volume here.
My smallest Faunabox (plastic enclosure) is only 2 gallons, but my smallest glas terrariums for babies have 7.14 gallons. (19, 29,6, 50,8 are those for subadults and breeders)
I think expanse is more important than height.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

wow.... I just read this entire thread. I am going to try and not write a book here... what I can say is that to anyone who has been regularly contributing to this thread, there are points that I agree with just about everyone here. Especially Stefan.... you can always count on Stefan to tell it how it is and leave it!

Now lets get something straight here. I have worked with just about every commonly worked with non-venomous snake type that you could think of, I have used both enclosures and tubs/racks. My snakeroom is a hybrid mix of rack systems and enclosures. I like them both for varying reasons. Whether the container we are keeping a snake is a glass box, or a plastic box, it's still a box, and it's still OUR JOB to ensure the snake's well being. The moment we took snakes out of their natural environment and put them into a box we lose all hopes of trying to match what they would have in the wild.

I am very much a person of fact and one of my pet peeves is people who think their snakes love them, that their snakes are lonely or whatever... snakes couldn't care less about us.

BUT, we cannot generalize all snakes. I am a strong believer that not all snakes are suited for a rack system. And no one is ever going to change that opinion. Snakes are as different from one another as anything else. When you look at our hobby, it is EASY to see which snakes are best suited for the rack system. Because their populations have exploded in this hobby and are out of control. Ball pythons, corn snakes, bloods, western hognoses, I could name ten more, but there is really no need.

One thing I can say is that, you can definitely keep a garter snake in a tub. It is done all the time. Hell, I do it all the time. But the tubs I use are about 30x18, they have more floor space than a 20 gallon long, but are a quarter of the weight, are easier to clean and sure, I can't see through them all the way, but that doesn't matter. I would never keep a garter snake in a small tub where it would not even have the option to move about. One thing I see a lot of? Really obese checkered garter snakes. You see them all the time at shows. They are obese because they are fed a great big hulking rodent once a week and they are given a relatively small enclosure with a hide and a water dish. They spend most of their time under their hide digesting that huge meal, because it takes so long, the snake will not be active during this time because it has no need. In this case they will act just like a perfectly healthy corn snake and will live many years.

But what people are missing is that is NOT how garter snakes are meant to live. They will survive this way, but it's not optimal. Garter snakes will take prey every day in the wild if they can. They eat smaller, more frequent meals all of the time. They eat mostly things, such as worms and fish and frogs, that pass VERY quickly through the digestive tract. They will still eat mice and birds in the wild, but that's not going to make up the bulk of their diet. Because they are active foragers, they are out and about for a good portion of the day. They are designed to eat and digest things quickly, and they do not spend the majority of their time hiding. Maybe at night they are hiding, but during the day garter snakes are rarely sedentary, unless it's the heat of the day and it's uncomfortably hot, or if the weather is otherwise unfavorable. 9 times out of 10 the only time I find a garter snake under a rock is during the heat of the day, when the temps are higher than garters like.

I try to explain this to people all of the time, and they don't seem to understand it. Garter snakes WILL live and seemingly do great with a sedentary lifestyle, but generally, their body may not be as tip-top shape as they may appear. Garter snakes are not meant to live a sedentary lifestyle. They don't do it in the wild, they do not spend all of their time hiding, they spend it foraging and basking out in the open. And in captivity they will mirror this. Give a healthy garter snake a basking light and it will bask all day... it will crawl around and do whatever the hell garter snakes do. It will hardly hide, and if it does, it may still be exhibiting some fear towards the keeper. Even the most fearful garter snake will usually lose it's fear of the keeper eventually and will adopt the non-sedentary lifestyle.

Back to my enclosures. The tubs that I set up mirror the way that I would set up an enclosure. Multiple hides, a fake plant or two, and a water bowl that is large enough for the snake to fit in. Maybe a branch or something that they have to make the effort of crawling over top of now and then, it will give them better muscle tone. And the snakes that live in them are as well fed as a garter can be, and they are still active from the moment the sun starts coming in through the windows until it sets. Baby garter snakes don't seem to thrive nearly as well in tubs as adults and juveniles, for a few reasons. One, sliding the tub in and out scares them and will cause them not to feed. Two, baby garters react so strongly to having a light, it's incredible. Often the ONLY thing I need to change to get a finicky baby eating regularly is to provide a light. it doesn't even have to be a basking light with extra heat. If that desn't work, moving the baby in with a few other snakes that have a vigorous appetite can do the trick. For some reason, all of the other baby snakes eating around the "shy" one triggers a monkey-see monkey-do kind of effect, and he becomes more willing to eat, and to try new foods.

When I am at a show, I can always tell a garter snake that is being kept in a smaller enclosure without much to "do" other than eat a mouse once a week and then crawl back into a hide to digest it. All you have to do is pick them up. You can feel the difference in muscle tone and in how "alert" they are. They may be an outwardly healthy snake but it is easy to see through that when you are intimately familiar with the "little things" about garter snakes and similar active species. I see a similar effect with carpet pythons. Snakes are amazing in that they can adapt to just about any lifestyle if it means surviving. But not all snakes are suited to hide all of the time... garter snakes, even wild ones spend most of their time out in plain sight, and rely on their own vision and senses to spot a predator and RUN for cover. But they will wait for the danger to pass and come right back out. They even sneak peeks at you to see if you have left yet.

So often, I see keepers that make their snakes conform to what is easiest for the keeper, and what makes the keeper happiest, when not everything is taken into account as far as the snake is concerned. And then as long as the snake is eating, pooping, and hiding and seems outwardly OK, the mainstream consensus becomes that the bare minimum is acceptable. Ball pythons do SO well with nothing but a dark tub and a bowl of water. In some snakes, it is enough. In MOST snakes it is "enough", but "enough" and "optimal" are not the same.


Oh.... and to the original question... you can keep a baby garter snake NO PROBLEMS in a 5 gallon tank. You can even have your precious perfect thermal gradient. Anyone who says it can't be done, simply hasn't tried, or tried and failed miserably. I have a 5 gallon tank that has reared MANY healthy babies.

I saw ringnecks were mentioned. Not really a good choice... their main diet is snakes!

[ConcinusMan]

EDIT: Shannon posted before I hit the submit button. Keep that in mind.

The standard "5 gallon" size glass aquarium is approximately 40 X 20 cm floor space (16X8X10 inches) and it's actually 5.5 gallons. There are of course non-standard and custom sizes, especially if they're not made of glass.

That is obviously enough room for a very small snake. The main issue I have is unless you're keeping it in a heated snake room and using heat tape or heat pad on a very small area of one end, it's difficult to adequately heat the air inside the tank, say, with a ceramic heat emitter or basking bulb, while still maintaining a low enough air temperature on the cool end. It is true that garters do not have exacting temperature requirements, so people take this too far and do not provide enough heating, have too much fluctuation or overheat their garters. There are more temperatures to consider than most people even think of. There's the night time low,(which should be tank-wide) daytime high cool end, daytime high warm end, and there should be enough room for a gradient in between.

This is where plants, logs, hides and other things help to create a range of comfort zones. They are not just "decoration" that the snakes can live without, like some people tend to think.

I just prefer to create and environment that allows for the snake to thermoregulate and move about like it does in nature. Then along comes people and they think they can do it better by sticking them in a tub with heat tape. They think they know better than nature. This is not how garter snakes live normal lives. BP's and retics live like this naturally and people tend to apply it garter snakes as well. Garter snakes are not sedentary. They actively move about even if it's for no particular reason. I've seen the difference in appetite and attitude when you take a garter out of a dang shoebox and give it room, a wide gradient, landscaping, and "natural" lighting. Yes, they do indeed seem "happier" in such a setup.

[ConcinusMan]

They even sneak peeks at you to see if you have left yet.

See 0:48 to 1:05

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I've been out there and just sat still and watched the snakes. They are zipping around, moving about, and very, very active. They really a lot of the time just seem to be "frolicking". They're not hunting, they're not moving because they are hot or cold and yet there they are, moving about, climbing, watching, etc. The thing I like about watching them is that sometimes they will be watching me, get curious and actually approach.

[infernalis]

Just wanted to add to your post Richard, It's way easier to overheat a garter snake than underheat one.

I dislike talking about someone who is absent and cannot speak for themselves, so I'll speak generically.

There is a member here who found that out the hard way, she let direct sunlight irradiate a closed box containing baby garter snakes, they were all dead in mere minutes.

On the other side of that coin is the fact that sometimes we have "chilly spells" here in New York that can last for a week or more, and the local Garters do just fine.

I'm not challenging what you said in any way, just tossing out a personal observation at what seems like a relevant moment.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

It's really, really hard to underheat a garter snake in the average home. It's very easy to overheat them. They are NOT FOND of being too warm.

[ConcinusMan]

Agreed. Overheating, even if only slightly but consistently, seems to be a more common mistake when keeping garters in captivity. Even if all other husbandry factors are correct, heat stress is a killer. Respiratory infections and related immune deficiencies can be directly linked to overheating, not just dampness, dirty tanks and underheating. Any reptile vet that knows what he is talking about will tell you that many case of respiratory infection can be linked to keeping a snake too warm. This may seem contradictory since most cases call for more warmth or 24/7 elevated temps to support the immune system during an infection. Garters are naturally well adapted to cooler and less than ideal seasons. In places where heat is a problem frequently, you will not find garters thriving. Populations are stable and garters thrive even in years that are cooler than ideal.

This one of the reasons that I think it's best to have an enclosure that's big enough to ideally create a small area that is as high as 88 or even 90 degrees but also make sure that the snake can easily find a spot that is around 70 degrees during the day. That's difficult to accomplish as enclosures get smaller. Simply using heat tape and/or undertank heater isn't enough IMO. A snake that is trying to raise it's core temp will sit on a surface that is too warm, "cook" it's babies and maybe even get burned and still not accomplish raising it's core temp enough.

I'm not saying that the way I do things is the absolute only "right" way to do things but there is a lot of years, and a lot trial and error behind my recommendation of how to set up a garter enclosure. The smaller the snakes, the more relevant and higher success rate I have when I do things this way.

This is not just about aesthetics. The snakes just seem to thrive this way. And why wouldn't they? This is how they live and thermoregulate in the wild. To me this is minimal setup. Even bigger with a wider range microclimates certainly couldn't hurt.

S5tY5tGRvDI

[RedSidedSPR]

Thank you Shannon. You just backed up what I (we.. some of us) have been saying. They do need exercise, they are active, more so than other snakes, they need room. Nicely put.

Richard, I agree with the "to small for heat gradient" stuff. I am not likely to put anything in there after all. Partly because of heat and just because: what's the point? Buy a bigger tank if you can.
But I do agree that they CAN live in a small tank, even thrive, if you do it right.

Also I, and some others, said awhile back, "they have emotions", I don't really think they have EMOTIONS, but they do have some feelings. Fear, curiosity etc.

I also have nothing against tubs, as long as you still make it a nice habitat. But I do think enclosures are a better choice. For both the snake and the keeper.

I do respect everyone's opinion, but I especially respect and agree with what Richard, Shannon, Wayne, and anyone else who have been saying what they have. I don't think garters should be expected to live like less active snakes in small enclosures etc.

Now... continue arguing.:D



I saw ringnecks were mentioned. Not really a good choice... their main diet is snakes!

In captivity they can live off of worms alone... at least that's what I've heard. I only brought that up because I have a lot of them at near my house.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

In captivity they can live off of worms alone... at least that's what I've heard. I only brought that up because I have a lot of them at near my house.


I have tried a few adult ringnecks on worms... never could get them to eat them. I did find 4 eggs once in a trash pile, and they hatched into 4 beautiful baby ringnecks. I fed them worms a few times before releasing them in the area they were laid (but not in trash lol) Maybe if they are started on worms it would work... but I think the adults, having already tasted snakes... well, you know what I mean!

[Millinex]

I've been out for a bit, sadly I have a real life that takes up way too much time sometimes. I've spent a lot of time looking for places to live, caring for some new arrivals, getting cages set up/planning new ones and working on breeding Varanus indicus (which I believe hasn't been done or documented?) Anyway I'll go ahead and respond to a few posts real quick. If people have further questions feel free to post them and I'll respond again probably later tonight.


Ummmm...so you admit that keeping reptiles in small cheap containers is EASIER for YOU and then you go on to accuse those that choose larger naturalistic environments as doing "all for themself and not the animal".
It is easier for me, this is extremely true. However, I'm saying the well decorated tank is done because the owner wants a pretty tank. I have never once argued I keep snakes in tubs because it's convenience, and what I find better suited for the animals. Either way it comes down to keeper preference, my problem is the idea that mine aren't as healthy, or its "cruel" to keep them in this method whereas the high and mighty fancy enclosure people are the only ones doing it correct. Big difference. I've never ONCE bashed the idea of keeping them in a large enclosure, if that's what you want to do GOOD FOR YOU, however, it doesn't make my method cruel or wrong, or any worse for the snake.



Hmmmm...seems like a bit of a contradiction eh? Also "eating, being somewhat active, and reproducing" are not proof of much. Humans can and do survive in small prison cells for decades, an alien could peer down and say "now see, he eats everyday and breeds if given the chance therefore he must be content in that environment". Your comparing an animal that runs on instinct such as a snake, who has natural predators, to the most complex species on the planet. There is a lot different between a thinking being such as a human, and a non thinking being such a snake. I would never advice keeping gorillas, elephants, dolphins, monitors, dogs, etc in small cages due to the fact they actually have thinking and problem solving abilities, snakes, do not. Huge difference.


Fact is in nature Garters are fairly busy little guys, whether for food or heat or whatever. In a captive environment they are still hard wired to want some activity, and their nature does not change simply because they don't need to hunt for food constantly.Which is why all my garters in tubs are not "super active and hard wired to be active". Garters go out to move for a reason, if there is no reason, the snake will not move. Period.


Humans have very LITTLE understanding of how most other species interpret their world. To think we understand them and their perception is quite ignorant and arrogant on our part. Keep in mind a few decades ago doctors "knew" that newborn human infants could NOT feel pain, they would perform major surgery on those infants and they were certain the cries and thrashing were involuntary responses that had NOTHING to do with actually suffering because the infants were physically incapable of experiencing real pain.Again, different ballgame, that's pure stupidity on there behalf in thinking that a higher organism with an intelligent brain, ability to learn and grow and understand problem solving could not feel pain. Then again, that has little to do with the brain in general in this sense, and more to due with the central nervous system. Show me a trained snake, with some cognitive intelligence, and I'll openly declare I was wrong. Until a snake is able to be trained in some sort of manner to solve a multi step problem (the ability to think ahead to an end result), I still maintain these animals are nothing more than instinct.


We have NO real understanding regarding the psychology of most animals! Even the psychology of canines is hotly debated. How can anyone even pretend to understand their psychology when you yourself say they can't tell you what they are thinking?No, however, we perceive animals as intelligence based upon the ability to think ahead and figure out an end result, multi step problems, things of this nature. Again, dogs have been PROVEN on multiple levels to understand multi step problems, be able to solve a problem, and work as a team. Anyone who thinks a solitary snake has the brainpower anywhere near a social mammal probably failed simple biology classes in middle school.


At least we agree on that subject.
I find the activity levels of Garter Snakes amusing to me.
Hiding this behind an opaque wall would defeat the entire purpose of having it. Beauty is to be admired, not hidden.

I do appreciate the personal stab at me due to the fact I view housing of captive snakes a little different, goes to show you're extremely mature. Clearly the idea of me taking a day off of responding and dedicating 20 minutes to typing out my reasons for viewing, in order to take care of my myriad of animals and personal problems, is a valid excuse for your behavior. The last thing on my mind when I have animals to build homes for, and work to do, is getting online to argue with YOU, because in the grand scheme of things, I literally do not think about this subject 99% of my day.

Again, if you find it amusing, keep them in a large enclosure, I have no problem with this. Just don't tell me my tub is cruel, and such a horrible environment, because the snake DOES NOT CARE. If you want to admire the beauty of the snake, go ahead, I'm not stopping you, I'm simply saying I keep them for other reasons, and being able to watch them, is not what I care about.


I think you're a little out-voted Milinex. Garters are VERY active and should have room to explore.

FYI, guys, I'm probably not going keep anything in the 5gal other than maybe a Pacman frog. The next things I'm getting is another garter snake, and a water snake hopefully, both are going in 15-29 gal tanks. Thanks for your help on what can live in one though, I may use it, I may not.

And yeah, Steve list 'em all!!

Hey Wayne, you mind telling me what bedding you're using in that picture? I'd like to find something like that but they all have sand in them... and from what I've heard that's bad for garters.
Again, I could care less if an internet forum disagrees with my methods of keeping (the same method used by thousands of keepers with very little ill effects), I'm not out to prove mine is better, I'm defending the point that my tub system is not cruel, and does not harm the animal, and again, "exploring" is a thinking term, garter snakes do not think, no snake does.

As for sand, not all sand is bad, I've found plenty of them in the wild using sandy areas, as long as there are other places to be, other than on the rough sand, the snake will be fine. Impaction is generally caused by keeper inability, not the substrate.


Two thoughts. First of all I am not sure they experience emotions like fear the way other animals (including humans do). It may be more of a preprogrammed automatic response but regardless it causes STRESS which is no doubt unpleasant for them. Likewise I do think they can experience pleasurable activities as well, chowing down on a good meal, lounging in the basking spot and enjoying the warmth, investigating the activities of the "giant" to see if they will offer food or provide some interesting interaction.
It's an instinct, stress is too much stimulus leading to the animals natural fight or flight reflex, in most cases, its flight- hiding and refusing to eat. I also don't think it's "pleasure", as snake brains are not complex enough to recognize pleasure in the same sense that humans or other social animals do. I would not argue that basking, water, food, is a good thing for them, however it's just fulfilling the instinctual voids that the animal needs to provide. As for investigating the giant, I don't think it's investigating looking for food/interaction, as that would involve some sort of higher thinking, I do believe that the snake will eventually become accustomed to the giant, and it will not cause stress to hinder instinctual behavior.


Is it "emotion" the way we sense it? I do not know but does that even matter? Pain/pleasure/stress/contentment is every bit as important, it defines the quality of life.I would agree that a snake can feel pain, and stress, however "contentment" and "pain" I do not think snakes feel at all.


Regarding "instinct" vs. "emotion". Realize many (or possibly most) human emotions are based on instinct as well. The love for ones newborn baby (hormones surging), the feeling of protectiveness towards ones children, the bonding with sex partners (helpful in raising offspring successfully), the need to live in family groups and display forms of loyalty to associates. Those may seem like high and mighty "special" human attributes but many are based on INSTINCT and HORMONES and are designed to further our own survival and the survival of our offspring. Not arguing this, however, humans can think, reasons, solve problems, things of that nature. We can figure out 2+2=4, this is what sets us apart. All animals act on instinct, however, snakes, and most reptiles, do not have the problem solving abilities that we do. That is what makes us different.

[Millinex]

Studies have proven hormones (such as oxytocin) are responsible for much of the bonding that goes on among humans and other species. Introducing those hormones to animals that normally have low levels change their behavior instantly.

When comparing young puppies to snakes, keep in mind that snakes are expected to survive and have the basic mental faculties to do it right from the get go. Puppies, human babies, etc....are raised in family groups where the adults do most of the thinking for quite some time; they do not need to develop their intellect quite so rapidly, they can enjoy the luxury of being somewhat stupid as the family unit will protect them and provide for them.Again, it's just the way we where created in comparison to snakes. Look at the simple things the snake needs to do in its life- eat, drink, hide, maintain proper thermoregulation. Look at what puppies, and humans need to do.. We social, hunt together, talk to each other, interact, solve problems, we have a ton of knowledge to gain in our lives to function properly. I'm positive if we stripped away all the "extras" humans could probably end up producing little versions of themselves that can eat, drink, hide, and survive.



That is obviously enough room for a very small snake. The main issue I have is unless you're keeping it in a heated snake room and using heat tape or heat pad on a very small area of one end, it's difficult to adequately heat the air inside the tank, say, with a ceramic heat emitter or basking bulb, while still maintaining a low enough air temperature on the cool end. It is true that garters do not have exacting temperature requirements, so people take this too far and do not provide enough heating, have too much fluctuation or overheat their garters. There are more temperatures to consider than most people even think of. There's the night time low,(which should be tank-wide) daytime high cool end, daytime high warm end, and there should be enough room for a gradient in between.

Want to know how much heating I put on my garter snakes? A resounding, none. Do you know how much humidity I add to my garters? Very very little. Look at where most of us live, and hell garter snakes manage to live around us, in our homes, sheds, alleys with extreme ease. If they needed extra heat, they frankly wouldn't even be found living in this environment.


This is where plants, logs, hides and other things help to create a range of comfort zones. They are not just "decoration" that the snakes can live without, like some people tend to think.In my experience, I can find the same snake living year after year under the same board/rock, as long as I do not disturb it, every time it will dart back under the same one, because it's a good undisturbed shelter. Only when I remove the one shelter does it move to a new one, because instincts have told the snake it isn't safe there now.


I just prefer to create and environment that allows for the snake to thermoregulate and move about like it does in nature. Then along comes people and they think they can do it better by sticking them in a tub with heat tape. They think they know better than nature. This is not how garter snakes live normal lives. BP's and retics live like this naturally and people tend to apply it garter snakes as well. Garter snakes are not sedentary. They actively move about even if it's for no particular reason. I've seen the difference in appetite and attitude when you take a garter out of a dang shoebox and give it room, a wide gradient, landscaping, and "natural" lighting. Yes, they do indeed seem "happier" in such a setup.I'm not claiming I know more than nature you're getting the wrong idea here. Again, I don't use heat tape, I use natural air temperatures of the environment here in Colorado, for my Colorado Snake. You want to add various heating instruments to the enclosure, those aren't found in nature, why are you trying to play better than nature? Again, I'm not claiming my method as better, I'm saying yours is not any better than mine.

My animals have behaved the same in both environments. I've kept garters for 15 years since I was a kid keeping them in buckets in my back yard, I've kept almost every snake introduced into this hobby at some point, I've kept various hots as well, clearly all my husbandry is wrong and I'm cruel for using a tub system. Oh wait.. If I'm not mistaken.. Doesn't Scott use tubs? I hate to say it but he produces some of the best garters I've seen, all from a tub system. Damn, all of us tub using snake breeders don't have the slightest clue!


Just wanted to add to your post Richard, It's way easier to overheat a garter snake than underheat one.

I dislike talking about someone who is absent and cannot speak for themselves, so I'll speak generically.
On the other side of that coin is the fact that sometimes we have "chilly spells" here in New York that can last for a week or more, and the local Garters do just fine.

I'm not challenging what you said in any way, just tossing out a personal observation at what seems like a relevant moment.
Extra heating is not needed for those who keep garters here in America... They do just fine without any heat tape, lights, or heat pads.


Thank you Shannon. You just backed up what I (we.. some of us) have been saying. They do need exercise, they are active, more so than other snakes, they need room. Nicely put.
You can just say "everyone but Millinex", I really won't be offended. ;) Shannon's snakes are excellent, and I have no doubt in her methods of keeping, I'm sure they work great for her. Again, I disagree with some of the methods listed here, disagreeing and doing something differently doesn't mean I'm cruel, huge difference.


Richard, I agree with the "to small for heat gradient" stuff. I am not likely to put anything in there after all. Partly because of heat and just because: what's the point? Buy a bigger tank if you can.
But I do agree that they CAN live in a small tank, even thrive, if you do it right.If you want the bigger tank, to observe the animal and meet what you're looking for in a cage system, go right ahead, I have no problem with it. I never go onto peoples posts bashing anyones caging, however I'd be willing to bet if I posted pictures of the tubs I use for young garters, I'd have pages of replies saying "that's so cruel and awful" despite the garters being in 100% perfect health.



Also I, and some others, said awhile back, "they have emotions", I don't really think they have EMOTIONS, but they do have some feelings. Fear, curiosity etc. Fear is not an emotion, it's a chemical triggered in the brain causing the fight or flight reflex, something completely involuntary, and instinctual. Fear is a man-made word. I disagree on "curiosity" though.


I also have nothing against tubs, as long as you still make it a nice habitat. But I do think enclosures are a better choice. For both the snake and the keeper.And I fully respect that as your opinion. My tubs are very simple normal snake keeping breeding tubs, and I've never had a problem with my snakes in health.



Again people, I have nothing against big enclosures, what I do have a problem with, is the notion that my methods are "cruel" because I use simplistic tubs, and people take into account the enclosure, more than the health of the snake.

-Mike

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Mike, kudos to you for typing that much. My eyes might actually be bleeding now LOL. I for one have no problem with you or your opinions on snakes. I think a lot of the points you make are extremely valid, and are often things that everyone else is either unwilling to say, or refuses to be open to. What it boils down to is that we all have one thing in common... we love snakes. And we care so much about them that we are seriously passionate about being SO RIGHT about how we keep them. Let's all remember that we as snake lovers must remain allies, as we have no other allies in this world. There is not one solution to snake keeping that is absolutely right. What works for me, and what works for the next person, are not the same and they should not be the same.... just as some people feed their snakes in separate containers, and I feed my snakes in their enclosures. And there are people out there who think that is wrong, and will try and press that upon me, and I politely tell them to shove it! I don't have any business telling them they are wrong for feeding their snakes in boxes, and the same should hold true for them. There is nothing more destructive in our hobby than keepers who think their methods are absolutely the best and they feel the need to smear everyone else who does it differently. If everyone would agree to disagree, the world would be a better place.

[ConcinusMan]

However, I'm saying the well decorated tank is done because the owner wants a pretty tank.

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/5037/doublefacepalmt.jpg

I don't know how many times I have to say why it's done that way before you finally understand. It has nothing to do with what I want. If I thought garters were better suited for living in an old cardboard shoebox, then by golly, that's what I would have them in.

Now you're telling me you not only keep them in tubs, but ignore basic proper husbandry such as heat/ temperature gradient and humidity. Then you also tell me there's nothing wrong with putting them on sand and insult us by telling us our "abilities" somehow are keeping us from doing so successfully. Now I'm starting to get irritated. You don't seem to understand one bit any of the reasons for anything related to husbandry. The issue with sand isn't even about impaction. If you knew what the heck you were doing you wouldn't be saying that. You sound completely clueless. I feel sorry for your snakes.

Well you must have some magic power to be able to ignore all of this and keep snakes healthy long term. I can tell you right now that if I kept a garter on sand, in a tub, and no heat, it would go downhill fast. Dang near everything you say about their husbandry is complete opposite of everything I've learned through trial and error over 25 years. It's as if you're trying to tell me, and just about everyone here, that we've been doing it wrong all this time, or that nothing we've come to know about their husbandry is valid.

[Millinex]

Mike, kudos to you for typing that much. My eyes might actually be bleeding now LOL. I for one have no problem with you or your opinions on snakes. I think a lot of the points you make are extremely valid, and are often things that everyone else is either unwilling to say, or refuses to be open to. What it boils down to is that we all have one thing in common... we love snakes. And we care so much about them that we are seriously passionate about being SO RIGHT about how we keep them. Let's all remember that we as snake lovers must remain allies, as we have no other allies in this world. There is not one solution to snake keeping that is absolutely right. What works for me, and what works for the next person, are not the same and they should not be the same.... just as some people feed their snakes in separate containers, and I feed my snakes in their enclosures. And there are people out there who think that is wrong, and will try and press that upon me, and I politely tell them to shove it! I don't have any business telling them they are wrong for feeding their snakes in boxes, and the same should hold true for them. There is nothing more destructive in our hobby than keepers who think their methods are absolutely the best and they feel the need to smear everyone else who does it differently. If everyone would agree to disagree, the world would be a better place.
Exactly what I was getting at, I'm not one to beat around the bush and be all afraid to say what's on my mind. I live in America, and this is the internet. On both I will freely exercise my freedom of speech, regardless of if people agree with me. That is part of what makes reptile husbandry so great, the fact that not one person has all the answers!



I don't know how many times I have to say why it's done that way before you finally understand. It has nothing to do with what I want. If I thought garters were better suited for living in an old cardboard shoebox, then by golly, that's what I would have them in.
Again, this is a disagreement. You feel that the snake needs more, however in all reality, I'd be willing to bet my car, house, and every animal in my collection I could show you side by side photos of snakes the same age, raised in both methods, and you could not pick out the tub raised individuals.


Now you're telling me you not only keep them in tubs, but ignore basic proper husbandry such as heat/ temperature gradient and humidity.
Far from the truth, people have kept garters for YEARS in all sorts of random things with absolutely no ill effects. I raised many as a kid, and bred them, between ages 5-10 in nothing more than 5 gallon buckets, with some grass thrown in, feeding nothing but worms. This is a NA native snake, you can meet all of its basic needs pretty easily without the use of heat pads, mats, lights, or other such heating fixtures, and I have done so for many many years. Although, clearly, because I do something differently, and the same way I have for years, I'm ignoring basic husbandry. The funny thing is, I have very expensive showcase cages, maintained at perfect humidity and temps for tropical species, to imitate their natural environment, but when I mimic the same for a native here, in my own way, I'm told I don't know what I'm doing. LOL.


Then you also tell me there's nothing wrong with putting them on sand
Because you can't manage to read what I posted "as long as you give them other areas/substrates as well", something along those lines. I've found HUNDREDS of garter snakes in sandy environments, although clearly the snake in the wild stops and thinks "oh wait, this is sand" and steers clear of the area, and never utilizes it. WRONG. Caught many snakes on sand, it's a very natural substrate and if used properly can do nothing but enhance the naturalistic effect of the substrate/environment chosen. Again, I never said pure sand, due to the roughness of its texture and the fact over time, only sand would probably cause irritation and scale damage.


and insult us by telling us our "abilities" somehow are keeping us from doing so successfully. Now I'm starting to get irritated. You don't seem to understand one bit any of the reasons for anything related to husbandry. The issue with sand isn't even about impaction. If you knew what the heck you were doing you wouldn't be saying that. You sound completely clueless. I feel sorry for your snakes.

I'm not insulting anyone, I'm saying that when you bring up sand, and herps, the most common phrase is "impaction" clearly you haven't been around the reptile hobby enough to know that a huge number of herps die each year from sand impaction, and it's probably one of the most common things I get emails about. I'm saying that if maintained properly, you can use some sand in your enclosures, as you would very easily find sand outside, animals use it all the time, although clearly this natural substance is awful, and should be replaced by repti-bark or carefresh. If I where to say that all the garters I ever displayed in a public room where always kept on dirt, I'd probably have people cry over that too, despite the fact that these animals live on dirt in the wild.

Do you really want me to list off the other problems with using sand as your only substrate? The roughness can damage scales, it can cause eye/nose irritation, impaction, it's messy, it absorbs and radiates a ton of heat if left too close to an open window. The list goes on and on why sand is not a good pure substrate, however some sand, is not going to kill your snake, do some field herping and educate yourself.

You feel sorry for my snakes? Because I don't keep them in naturalistic environments? The commercial snake industry is supplied by 2 sets of people mainly: captive hatchers, and breeders. Every breeder I have EVER met, uses a rack system. BHB enterprises, one of the top breeders of captive snakes uses racks, and does amazing business, and produces some extremely quality animals, so does Scott, so does my personal friend Dave, I mean hell if you want I can go list off a few hundred more breeders like Ben Seigel and Tom Crutchfield, some of the biggest names in captive snake breeding, but again, we are all cruel for using tubs/racks and you feel sorry for our snakes.

If you want, I'll be glad to post pictures of all of my animals, including the snakes living in the $1600 showcase cages my girlfriend purchased for her snakes, and I helped set up and I help maintain. Guess what, I have nothing against the cages, she enjoys them, and fully admits she got them for her enjoyment, because she likes to display her snakes rather than the rack I keep mine in. We have proper humidity, temp gradients, you name it, we have it on these cages, literally the whole 9 yards, she also has 2 baby corn snakes in tubs. Clearly though, you feel sorry for the snakes. Bash someone else, because if you want to have a go at me, I have no problem having a go at you.




Well you must have some magic power to be able to ignore all of this and keep snakes healthy long term. I can tell you right now that if I kept a garter on sand, in a tub, and no heat, it would go downhill fast. Dang near everything you say about their husbandry is complete opposite of everything I've learned through trial and error over 25 years. It's as if you're trying to tell me, and just about everyone here, that we've been doing it wrong all this time, or that nothing we've come to know about their husbandry is valid.
Again, learn to read, I never said using only sand is acceptable, can you not figure this out? I'm going to explain AGAIN, since you missed it and decided to selectively read to try to make a valid argument. Instead you made yourself look stupid. I said sand is acceptable with other substrates, not alone, because it can cause problems. Again, when you talk about sand and herps, the most COMMON THING BROUGHT UP, in nearly every scenario I have ever dealt with is "it impacts reptiles".

I keep mine in tubs, paper towel, water dish, and hide. They are kept in an outdoor shed that maintains 75-90 degrees in the day, and around 70 at night. They have a window on both sides of the shed, and get plenty of adequate lighting as well. I find these snakes in the exact same conditions living in the wild, literally, the only difference is that the shed doesn't temp spike to 110 like it sometimes does here, but then again, garters at this altitude don't come out at that time regardless, it's simply too hot. If you're saying you cant keep a garter healthy, in the same conditions as the area you've caught it from, than you are by far the most foolish reptile keeper I have ever met.

I've noticed your ability to selectively read, so I'll spell it out again for you, in hopes you manage to actually read and understand:
I have NOTHING against the use of realistic looking enclosures. I have used both and found ZERO difference in end result in keeping the snake. However, that doesn't make it ok to look down on my method of keeping in tubs and say "that's so cruel and wrong" because my snakes are just as healthy as yours in a natural enclosure.

-Mike

[ConcinusMan]

We are clearly not understanding each other. There are agreements, disagreements, and then there is a complete failure to get the point. It's obvious from your responses that you are completely missing my point every time. It's like you're not even hearing me. You keep arguing is such a way that suggests to me that you are misunderstanding my statements completely. You're arguing against things that weren't even my point. Not even close.

There's really no point in continuing. You're not hearing a word I'm saying.

[Millinex]

We are clearly not understanding each other. There are agreements, disagreements, and then there is a complete failure to get the point. It's obvious from your responses that you are completely missing my point every time. It's like you're not even hearing me. You keep arguing is such a way that suggests to me that you are misunderstanding my statements completely. You're arguing against things that weren't even my point. Not even close.

There's really no point in continuing. You're not hearing a word I'm saying.
Of course I'm not hearing a word you're saying. I'm reading it and reading it multiple times. The sad part is I have to re-read your posts over and over to get anywhere, because you are a selective reader plain and simple.

Would you like pictures? Hell I'll even post side by side pictures of a 2 year old male ball python raised in someone's very fancy reptile enclosure, and a picture of my girlfriends 1 year old ball, raised in a tub. Guess which one's healthier ;)

I never bashed your point of view, your arguments have been 100% invalid and ignorant, and you've failed to read anything I've typed. Again, I have nothing against your way of keeping, despite what you seem to think.

[ConcinusMan]

You see, there it is again.

[Millinex]

You see, there it is again.
Like you selectively reading the fact I see tubs as the only way to keep. The way you selectively read that I support sand as use for a substrate. Lol, I could go on, but you're helpless, you can't even hold a solid argument without becoming insulting. No big deal to me though, the thread will go on fine without your input ;)

[ConcinusMan]

Like you selectively reading the fact I see tubs as the only way to keep. The way you selectively read that I support sand as use for a substrate. Lol, I could go on, but you're helpless, you can't even hold a solid argument without becoming insulting. No big deal to me though, the thread will go on fine without your input ;)

If that's what you think, then you just drove home my point. You didn't hear anything I said and completely missed the point. I'm sorry you think I said or meant something I did not. Like I said, obviously there has been a breakdown of communication.

You win because quite frankly you're tiring me out.

[zooplan]

Mike, kudos to you for typing that much. ....
Kudos to all participants of this discussion.
I can´t even read that much:o
BUT : Even a small enclosure can be big enough for temperatur gradient and I can see my babies using different hides places, wether they are fed or hungry (for example) (repeated??=give me a short advice PLEASE)
Have you ever tried to cool your face with a cool bottle?
Yeah,but have you ever tried to measure the temperature of your terrarium glas at different points?


If everyone would agree to disagree, the world would be a better place.