PUGET BABIES #2 _ Stubby Tail

[mikm]

Ya'll ain't gonna' believe this but she's on baby number 3 !!! These are big babies !!! Same length as the #1's litter but these are thicker, heftier ... Makes sense as Stubby Tail appears to me to be a little more 'seasoned', shorter & thicker then #1. Well ... On the way home from work I stopped for trout now I need to go dig some worms, lol :))) :eek:

A ??? now that I think of it ... Stubby Tail was blue eyed Sunday. I have a few other pics of her under the log where you can clearly see her eyes. Isn't it 'off' for her to be delivering today, Tuesday ??? She did not shed ... Lastly #1 ate very well today, rodents with only one rosey feeder for 'bait'. :)))

enjoy your evening ...
marian

[adamanteus]

Great news Marian, you're having an excellent start to the year.

[Thamnophis]

Going well, I presume!

[mikm]

Yes, very well ... thank you ...

[adamanteus]

So Marian, I guess we'll be looking out for your entry in this months photo competition?:rolleyes: :D

[drache]

congratulations again
what abundance!

[Cazador]

I saw the title, and before even reading your post, I said to myself, "NO WAY!" Congrats again!

It's a bit unusual for them to be blue just before delivery, but not unheard of. Three questions:

Did they eat right up till delivery?
Are they colored the same as the others?
When was their last shed prior to delivery?

Well... fire up that camera, Marian. Admiring fans want to see :D.

Rick

[Ameivaboy]

and i still have 0 babies : ^ (

oh well, congratulations marian

[GarterGuy]

Congrats again Marian! Can't wait to see what these guys look like. Bigger then the last ones???? Wow mama must be glad to have gotten them out!:eek: Hope they shed, feed and do well for you.
Roy

[Snaky]

Well, that's going great with you! Congrats on the new one's:)

[mikm]

'Stubbs' had (has had) a total of FOUR beautiul, robust babies, no stillborns. The first baby was waiting for me when I returned home from work approx 04:00 PM EST yesterday. The individual pic is of that first one. I left the three babies in her tank with her last night (20L) when I went to bed. This morning I fetched the 'three' out. About an hour later I saw a 'fourth' so I am assuming the last one was born this morning sometime. Also this morning was the very first time (since yesterday) that 'Stubbs' has ventured out from within the 'birthing log' to the 'lounging log', lol. They (the MaMa's) stopped feeding about 10-14 days ago though I offered food right up until last Friday. Not sure when either of them (adults) last shed. I am not quite as meticulous as most in regards to keeping records on them and such. I am sure the babies all obviously shed as I stumbled upon the first little one's shed and afterbirth trail upon arriving home. This litter is more robust then #1's. By comparison size wise, this second batch looks like litter #1 after a good meal. The overall head size is (visually) the same. Litter #2 appears 'richer' overall then #1. Not sure why that is exactly however as I previously stated 'Stubbs' appears 'seasoned' for lack of a better term. 'Proud MaMa' is a very beautiful snake, rich color and all so perhaps she's younger or maybe 'Stubbs' is a genetically better suited breeder ??? In other words if I were selling both MaMa's I suspect most would select 'Proud MaMa' over 'Stubbs'. Without further adieu ===>
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/IMG_0869.JPG
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/IMG_0870.JPG
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/IMG_0868.JPG

[Cazador]

Good looking young ones there, Marian. Is it just my computer, or do they seem to be a bit more blue in the group photos?

Rick

[Thamnophis]

Blue is a very fine snake-color.

[mikm]

Yup Rick they sure are ... None of these have pale belly color either. 'Funny' that in the group pic the camera picked up 'blue' before I noticed it. :rolleyes: Looking forward to seeing pics of other litters ...

enjoy your day,
marian

[Snaky]

Very nice babies! ( a little jealous... :) )

[drache]

beautiful babies
more than a little jealous, I admit

[Cazador]

I'm curious how quickly they turn blue. Roy had bought some very small Pugets last year that were already very blue. Weren't they about 4-5" long Roy?

[adamanteus]

Here's another interesting point to note....Small species (or sub-species)- comparitively few but large babies. Larger species- comparitively small babies but larger numbers. Incidentally, the same is true of spiders.

Any comments/observations?

[mikm]

Roy, Your Puget babies were blue from the start and small ?? How many times had they fed before you got them or how old were they ??? Do you recall ??? Any info is most appreciated :).

James, that is very interesting ... I would expect smaller litters but the size (large) I find curious ???

[mikm]

There's no way you 'guys' can be jealous of these few darlings when I have seen posts of all the sweet stuff you folks keep !!!

much thanks for the kind words !!! :D
marian

[Cazador]

You know how "the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence." :rolleyes: I wouldn't trade my collection, but I sure admire a lot of the different snakes on this forum. Don't know where I'd put them all, but one can dream :).

There are probably just as many exceptions to the size of adult:size of offspring observation that James made, but I think we notice quirks like that more often because they're so remarkable. I lot of the research on these issues (fecundity rates) deals with the amount of energy reserves that the mother has before becoming gravid and of course their capacity to ovulate.

Also ecologists talk about whether a species is an "r-select species" or a "k-select species." The r-select species maximize their fecundity "rate" but provide minimal parental care while k-select species produce fewer offspring but invest more parental care into them. As a result fewer k-select species die as neonates. The r-select species are normally good at colonizing new areas, but they suffer high mortality rates among the young.

Rick

[GarterGuy]

I'm curious how quickly they turn blue. Roy had bought some very small Pugets last year that were already very blue. Weren't they about 4-5" long Roy?

Yeh they were only about 5in. long. I must say too that Marian's blues really look a lot different then mine. I think mine were definitely T.ordiniodes, but maybe it's just me, but these guys really look like baby T.sirtalis.
Roy

[GarterGuy]

Roy, Your Puget babies were blue from the start and small ?? How many times had they fed before you got them or how old were they ??? Do you recall ??? Any info is most appreciated :).

James, that is very interesting ... I would expect smaller litters but the size (large) I find curious ???




Yeh, mine were blue from the get go (check out my entry in this month's contest). I have no idea how often they had been fed before I got them and as far as age, I was told they were several months old. Don't know if I believe that though....due to the size of them and the source of the info. I'm really thinking that you've got actual Pugets there (T.s.pickeringi), cause they don't look like my T.ordiniodes babies at all.

[mikm]

Hey Roy ... The blue baby you entered in the pic contest sure looks sweet, so sorry for your loss :( ... So that baby was suppoesed to be several months old ??? Approx how long was he ??? I have to say the little guy in that pic does not look like any of the babies I have.

marian

[Cazador]

Let's see how things develop, Marian, but if some don't gain the blue color, it would confirm that they mated with a "wild-type" male, which pretty much guarantees they were wild-caught adults (as if there were still any doubt).

Rick

[Ameivaboy]

are you implying they arent captive bred?? how could you !! lol jk

[GarterGuy]

Hey Roy ... The blue baby you entered in the pic contest sure looks sweet, so sorry for your loss :( ... So that baby was suppoesed to be several months old ??? Approx how long was he ??? I have to say the little guy in that pic does not look like any of the babies I have.

marian

He was only about 4-5in. long. He actually did very well for the first week, even shed, but then went downhill VERY quickly...the other one soon followed. Yeh, it was a real shame.....he was going to be a gorgeous snake.
Roy

[mikm]

My personal opinion, based upon my observations is that the 0.2 I treated earlier this year (which are doing well, btw) are ordiniodes . The male acquired with that group looks very different then those two girls and always has ... way before I was aware of the 2 different sub-species. He is a bright lime green, with a narrow snout which was more noticeable when he was housed with the ordiniodes girls, he is not blue at all. Back when I got them I asked "bob" about it and his reply was a lot of them were like (green) that but all babies turned blue ... for what that's worth. 'Someone' else (not 'bob', but a very reliable source) told me the green ones were rare, so I don't really know ?? I know I have been promising a photo shoot so I will just leave that alone for now as I have no excuse, the weather has been great !! That said ...

Rick, thanks for the info on the "r-select, k-select species" ... that's interesting to me. Not sure I agree with your color (or lack thereof) statement in regards to being bred to a wild type male. All of the adult WC animals of both sub species that I have seen (pics or in person) have very nice color. Green, blue, or blue/green, they all certainly catch your eye ... There is no mistaking it. Perhaps it has been my somewhat limited view of these animals but none that I have seen lacked color. Very much looking forward to seeing more litters 'on the ground'.

You all are always so helpful & thought provoking, THANK YOU !!

best wishes,
marian

[mikm]

STUBBS _ * update * This is 'my girl' :D ... She claimed the narrow log as her 'birthing log' and stayed inside there until she had dropped all of them. I could not actually see them being born as that end of her was pointed away from me, however I watched her contractions. When she ventured out of that log I knew she was done and removed the FOUR fat, babies. She rested that afternoon ... Early that same evening she soaked in her water dish, tightly wound, for about an hour then calmly slithered around peeling off her old skin in one complete shed. As soon as she completed that task, she stared at me, seemingly pressing her face up against the glass at the front of her tank looking at me as if to say 'Okay, I've done my part, so now where's dinner ??' :cool: ... She's got that, 'been there, done that' calm attitude ... How cool is that, lol ??
Not wanting to take anything away from Proud MaMa,she feasted on four large f/t pinks & good size minnow the day after her delivery as well. She looks great though she's still understandabley, a little thin. Based upon her actions I am assuming this was her first litter. She moved around quite a bit between deliveries and appeared 'jumpy'. She is quite the 'looker' so it will be nice to see how her youngun's progress color wise ... :)

what a great start to spring :p ...
marian