Red versus Blue

[mikm]

Within my experience of keeping limited various garter sub-species I have found 'red' to be different then 'blue' in regards to color development/intensity. For instance when I kept Flames, 'red' only got better with age. A newborn Flame that is peach colored becomes at best, a darker peach, not red. In contrast a baby Florida Blue-Stripe (similis) with a slight bright blue stripe becomes a brilliant blue as long as it does indeed have a rich blue stripe regardless of how slight the stripe is. Which brings me to the lack of color the Puget babies have. I saw pics of Scott Felzers Puget babies last year and they were virtually 'colorless' relatively speaking. My babies at the moment, only have pale green with a few faint blue scales, appearing as 'specks' actually. That's quite a leap ... Wondering what others may have experienced ???

best wishes,
marian

[Cazador]

Sorry Marian... haven't had a litter from them yet, but I've read that only the fresh Alaskan air can help intensify blue coloration. Why don't you send up a batch, and I'll let you know if it works? ;)

Actually, I've read that the color on these Pugets also intensifies with age. I think S. Felzer made that claim on one of his ads last year. I believe it was an ad on FaunaClassifieds.

Rick

[mikm]

hey Rick ... I mean blue and red colored garters in general. Like Red Spots seem to fade out whereas the Flames retain their red to the best of my knowledge. Just wondering why that is ??? ... :rolleyes: ...

thanks,
marian

[snakeman]

Sometimes flames do fade with age.I guess it has to do with individual genetics.Congrats on your babies Marian.

[adamanteus]

Just an observation. Outside of Thamnophis, blue is a pretty rare colour to find in snakes.

[Cazador]

hey Rick ... I mean blue and red colored garters in general. Like Red Spots seem to fade out whereas the Flames retain their red to the best of my knowledge. Just wondering why that is ??? ... :rolleyes: ...

thanks,
marian


I have a hunch that it's partially a dietary issue and partially genetics/senescence. I've had a number of Oregon red spots that really fade out as old snakes but prior to roughly 7 years old, their color intensifies. I occasionally add carotenoid powder to their diet, and I believe it helps to improve their coloration. They would normally gain carotenoids in their diet by eating salamanders and a number of aquatic "bugs" (macroinvertebrates). You can find more info here (http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/husbandry/183-what.html#post1376). The head of older concinnus seems to fade the most, like in Roy's contest winning photo from March (http://www.thamnophis.com/) and in this snake of mine (below). She's even more faded now, but she's about 9-10 years old.
Rick

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/DSC06743.JPG

[Stefan-A]

Just an observation. Outside of Thamnophis, blue is a pretty rare colour to find in snakes.

Isn't blue rare in animals in general?

[adamanteus]

Isn't blue rare in animals in general?

I guess so, apart from birds and fish.

[mikm]

thanks Rick ... the link you provided is what I was searching for as I recalled seeing the info & comparative fish pics before but could not find it ...

I appreciate your time ...
marian

[Snaky]

My concinnus all are very different, you can have a look at pics I posted earlier : http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/general-talk/717-some-pictures-my-snakes.html
(http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/general-talk/717-some-pictures-my-snakes.html)There is no difference whatsoever in the food and they have not been offered any supplements to intensify the colour, but they are all of different bloodlines. So I think a lot is already in their genes. I don't say supplements will help, but it's not needed to have a deep colour in my opinion.

The intensifiing of the red and fading away again when they are getting old is something that's indeed observed often.

[mikm]

Hans you have some gorgeous snakes !!! The Red Spot with the 'red' all the way through the next is awesome ... Hard to single out any one animal though ... wow :)

all the best,
marian

[Snaky]

Thank you marian:)

[ssssnakeluvr]

I had a real nice male florida blue...real deep blue too....he passed away after coming out of hibernation year before last... :( here's a pic of him.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//504/medium/male_fb_12.jpg

[mikm]

wow so sorry to hear (see) that Don ... That guy was 'similis' blue :eek: ... was that out of Scott's stock ?? Just curious ..

[ssssnakeluvr]

No....was out of a litter of florida blues I got from guy in New York several years ago. I have the sister...not as blue....

[abcat1993]

Is that one of those random mutation things or is that actually genetic? I wouldn't mind his babies. :p

[ssssnakeluvr]

I believe its genetic...florida blues have varying amounts of blue....

[drache]

I always thought it strange that the pattern of the T. similis actually looks more like a sirtalis pattern, than that of the Florida blue, which is a sitalis sub-species. To me the pattern of the Florida blue looks a lot more like a checker pattern

[KITKAT]

I always thought it strange that the pattern of the T. similis actually looks more like a sirtalis pattern, than that of the Florida blue, which is a sitalis sub-species. To me the pattern of the Florida blue looks a lot more like a checker pattern

Actually, T sirtalis similis is a subspecies of sirtalis, and T sirtalis "Florida Blue" is a morph.

:rolleyes:

[drache]

Actually, T sirtalis similis is a subspecies of sirtalis, and T sirtalis "Florida Blue" is a morph.

:rolleyes:
thanks for elucidating that
I'm still a little confused and I guess I've never thought too much about morphs. Now I realize that I'm not clear exactly what a morph is. I thought that was just an appearance thing. If an entire population is the same kind of morph, wouldn't that make it a sub species?
Apparently there are populations of both in the wild. So what defines one as a morph and the other as a subspecies?

[mikm]

I did not know that about similis either. Thanks much for taking the time to share your knowledge :) .

enjoy your day,
marian

[KITKAT]

thanks for elucidating that
I'm still a little confused and I guess I've never thought too much about morphs. Now I realize that I'm not clear exactly what a morph is.

A morph is a color variation that is caused by the inheritance of a color gene that modifies the color of the snake, but nothing else. A subspecies has more differences than a mere color gene combination.

The Florida Blue is a straight T sirtalis because the scale count is the same, the general structure of the snake is the same, the rows on which the stripes reside are the same, and only the color is different. The Florida Blue has the lateral stripes on rows 3 & 4, and the colors tend from green to aqua to blue.

The similis, on the other hand, has a sirtalis scale count, but tends to be a bit more slender and somewhat smaller, compared to a Florida Blue sirtalis, and has the lateral stripe on rows 2 & 3, with colors that tend from blue to white. The scientific name refers to the "similarity" of the similis with a blue ribbon snake, also found in the same range.


I thought that was just an appearance thing. If an entire population is the same kind of morph, wouldn't that make it a sub species?

Depends on how different the morph looks, I think... but the Florida Blue is highly variable, and interbreeds with brown T sirtalis that live in the same range, whereas the similis tends to breed with other similis... or at least that is the theory.


Apparently there are populations of both in the wild.

The Florida Blue is found all over Florida, but the similis is found only on the west coast and panhandle coast, not extending into the interior, and not extending south of Tampa.


So what defines one as a morph and the other as a subspecies?

Taxonomists! LOL!:D

[drache]

thank you so much
that makes it really clear
I only wish the rest of my life could be that clear (going through a rough patch)
right now, it feels like this information about garters is a little piece of solid ground I have to stand on when the rest of the world is utter chaos
silly, huh?
knowledge is so comforting
thanks again

[Sputnik]

Just an observation. Outside of Thamnophis, blue is a pretty rare colour to find in snakes.

Sorry, I couldn't resist refreshing this, I just remembered having seen this gorgeous photo a while back and came across it again yesterday so thought I'd share...:)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v630/MrsSputnik/bluesnake.jpg

[adamanteus]

Nice picture Esther, where did you find it? I think it's a Malayan Coral Snake (Maticora bivirgata), isn't it? Incidentally, this snake has a sub-species in (I think) Borneo, called tetrataenia!

I take back everything I said earlier about blue being an unusual colour in snakes!

[drache]

hey
I know I am just knocked over by that snake, but I don't know that it's necessarily impaired my mental faculties
I was just sort of mentally browsing our local reptile expo and I don't recall seeing a single snake with any blue colouration there ever
that snake up there certainly would have caught my attention - it's better than blue
don't tell me they're common in the UK

[adamanteus]

No, Rhea, not common at all! They're Malayan, and being highly venomous (Elapid) they're rarely seen in captivity.

[Sputnik]

Nice picture Esther, where did you find it? I think it's a Malayan Coral Snake (Maticora bivirgata), isn't it? Incidentally, this snake has a sub-species in (I think) Borneo, called tetrataenia!

I take back everything I said earlier about blue being an unusual colour in snakes!

For some reason it came up when we originally looked at our first pictures of garters. I lost it again for a while but it reappeared in the search a few days ago. Yes, it is a Malaysian (Malayan?) Coral Snake. It is amazingly beautiful!

Don't take back what you said, it still is an unusual colour in snakes. :)

[drache]

No, Rhea, not common at all! They're Malayan, and being highly venomous (Elapid) they're rarely seen in captivity.

that's what I thought, but I had to check, because I get the idea that you get some animals in Europe we don't, and vice versa. Then it ocurred to me, that you Brits probably get less than the continent, because of stricter regulations, or has that chenged with the tunnel?

[Snaky]

I think we have a very strict law in Belgium too... but we're great at bending or forgetting about it:D

[Stefan-A]

Best I can tell, we don't have very strict laws compared to the rest of Europe. The only things that seems to be strictly controlled, are local species, which require a permit to keep.