2011 Checkered Garter babies

[HazAnga]

Well after work today I decided to go top up the car before the Easter weekend, It took me maybe about 45 minutes extra before I got home. I come home and I briefly look into the tank where Helga (my very pregnant girl) is located. I look in and guess what!!!?? Babies!!! and lots.
Last year i only got 4 babies from her, this year I got 11 babies and 1 jelly (I have never seen a jelly, but there was this jelly white thing in a clump).
She gave birth to 4 nice regular checkereds (one being lighter colored and I'm hoping it ends up as a male and I plan on keeping that one, it also was the last one born because it was still just getting out of it's sack) and 7 Albino's.
I had to help 2 or 3 with their first shed, but other then that they all seemed perfectly healthy.
Please correct me if I'm wrong but now that they've all had their first shed there ready and waiting to eat?

Anyway here's some pix that i snapped
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/IMG_0109.jpg
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/IMG_0110.jpg
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/IMG_0111.jpg
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/IMG_0112.jpg
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/IMG_0113.jpg
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/IMG_0114.jpg

[HazAnga]

Here's some more, can you point out the lighter coloured normal that I was talking about?
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/IMG_0115.jpg
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/IMG_0116.jpg
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/IMG_0117.jpg
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/IMG_0118.jpg
Here's the setup that their going to be in until they find a new home.
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/IMG_0119.jpg
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/IMG_0120.jpg

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

that is VERY cool! You got a pastel!!!! Meaning... one of your adults is a pastel :) look at the labial pattern and the head pattern on that light colored male. Compare it to his siblings and you will see how he is different :)

Check the albinos.. it's very possible there is an albino pastel in there! :cool:

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Oh... also... they always shed first thing out of the mother. They might eat tomorrow, they might take 2 weeks to eat. It all depends on them! My pastel clutch last year was a royal pain in the neck!!! I can't see the head and face patterns on the other babies from the pictures, but it looks like you actually got one or two other pastels that are a bit darker. They vary greatly, the smoker like that male are hard to come by. Most of them fade as they grow and look almost normal as adults but they are still my most favorite snake EVER!

[HazAnga]

lol thanks, I will defiantly have to do some comparing, I probably got some pastels last year then.
And only one of the parents has to be pastels in order to get pastel babies?

EDIT:
What do you mean by Labial patern? Like the vent?

[sirtalis01]

sweet, this pastels are poping up every where and I WANT one lol

[snakeman]

Very nice.congrats!

[guidofatherof5]

Great looking babies. Congrats.
They should start eating within the next few weeks.

[HazAnga]

How can I exactly tell the difference between a pastel to a non pastel?

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

here are labial comparisons... the top two are normal (notice the uniform labial markings) and the bottom two are hypo's...I know the picture didn't come out quite so well, but you can recognize all of the same features on the labials if you have a good eye for detail.






http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll86/aSnakeLovinBabe/035.jpg

[HazAnga]

I took some labial photo's of a couple of the babies, I think the first pix are the one of the known pastel, please let me know if I'm correct?
I think it'll be easier for me to see the markings when there bigger.
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/IMG_0133.jpg
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/IMG_0131.jpg
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/IMG_0130.jpg
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/IMG_0128.jpg
I think this is one of the other garters.
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/IMG_0127.jpg
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/IMG_0126.jpg

If I'm correct I see how the non pastels labial markings are a little more defined compared to the pastels which are a little less and kind of unorganized..?
I also think it's going to be a little harder for me to sort out the albino's.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Nice big babies.

[HazAnga]

Yeah I guess they are fairly big. I can't wait too see how many my orher female tina pops out. I saw them mating this weekend so I think she'll have a much later clutch, otherwise a small one.

[HazAnga]

I tried to feed them today... no dice, I'll wait a couple days and maybe try and feed them this weekend.

[HazAnga]

As updated in the other post in urgent care I've lost one of the normals. There are two more babies that wern't too healthy looking. I hope they make it.

[Spankenstyne]

Nice looking babies, just had a smaller litter here too 7 babies. Hopefully the others make it for you too.

[Mommy2many]

Congratulations!

[Enneirda.]

Nice looking babies! I hope the rest all pull through. :)

[HazAnga]

So I tried another feed today, worm pieces. I got 2 of them to eat, one of the albino's and the Pastel. I don' think I'll be having any problem getting them to eat in the future. I'm curious as to what everyone else's methods are to first time feedings and getting new scrubs to eat. I am trying to stay away from the guppies if I can help it, I'd rather have a scrub set on only eating worms or fresh talapia then like last year where I had one stuck on guppies. It takes too many guppies to feed a garter and get it to grow.

[kibakiba]

With mine, I waited for a while and then I offered fish. We didn't have pinkies. They ate fish a couple times and then when my pinkies arrived I offered some of that cut up and they took that as if they've been eating them forever. All of them ate the fish when I offered it, and all of them took the pinkies. 4 of them are, however, scared of worms. I cut a larger worm into tiny, bite sized pieces and they all hid, except Spots.. :D

[HazAnga]

well I feed them in a smaller container, under my supervision so no one eats anyone. But Chantel how long is a while? do you wait a week... two weeks? I'll be trying some cut up pinks in a few days or so.

[kibakiba]

It took two weeks for mine to start eating. I would suggest offering every couple days, just to make sure no one goes on starving.

I offered food the day after they were born and waited a week before I offered food again, then started offering it every other day. If that makes sense.

[HazAnga]

sounds good

[Spankenstyne]

I've managed to get all mine again onto worms & fish. I just cut the worms into tiny bite sized pieces, same with the fish (trout or salmon usually). I offered the day after they were born, just left it in a dish in the nursery enclosure and left them alone with it overnight. 4 days and 2 feedings in I could tell all but one had eaten & fed it separately in a small feeding container once and now all are feeding approx every second day.
The babies I find can be understandably nervous & I often wonder if folks might have baby feeding issues due to too much action around? I leave them alone to explore their encloure and feed on their own as much as I can while getting them established. Just a thought & might be nothing to it as well.

[HazAnga]

That's different. My only problem was them accidently injesting the substrate, but if there in something without substrate... hmm

[HazAnga]

I just fed them some cut up worm and pinkie and some more ate, the Pastel ate and a few of the albino's ate as well. And.....!!! I believe I have some good news, the other het that wasn't looking too good, is doing well, active tongue flicking and more good news, it looks like another pastel. The facial features look as you guys have explained they should and it's lighter in colour too, not as much as the other one but getting there.
And MORE good news, the albino that wasn't doing too good is looking a little better, active tongue flicking and moving around more, flail's around a little more then it probably should when picked up, but it's doing much better then it was. It's skin still looks a little weird though, it's like kind of dark redish and the skin also looks loose.
But overall I think it will make it, just gotta git the little guy to eat and all will be great. :)

[kibakiba]

Can you get a picture of the dark red skin?

It's great that you got them to eat!

[Spankenstyne]

Great news that they're improving.

[HazAnga]

Chantel I can git a pic but it may not be until tonight.

[kibakiba]

That's fine, I'm just curious to see what it is, and it would help everyone to help you out

[brain]

Good looking scrubbs. This one is next on my list of "got to have" :D

[HazAnga]

Yeah they are nice and I'm busy until tonight cuzz were going out for half price wings after I'm done work.

[charles parenteau]

Awesome looking garter snake congratulation !

[HazAnga]

Sorry guys/Gals I didn't git to taking a pic of that baby because I was busy setting up my new laptop, my old one was finally sent in for it's last repair and I was able to git a replacement (I paid a little extra to git something better but ohh well) Now the girlfriend can use that and I have my awesome PC still, I hate sharing :)
Tomorrow I will deff git a pic of the baby and it's weird colouring on it's skin.

[scorpion0151]

I didn't know about the pastel markings, I'm going to have a look at mine next chance I get. I love the look of your bright coloured one, I hope it's male for you :)

[HazAnga]

So do I, I'm not 100% happy with the male I have cuzz the dummy will only eat worms, when I want him to eat more then just that.

[HazAnga]

ok well I finally got a chance to git a few pix of this albino with the dark redish brown on it's skin.
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/IMG_0148.jpg
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/IMG_0149.jpg
if you look on the neck of this pic you can really see it
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/IMG_0150.jpg
Please tell me what you guys think this is caused by, it seems fine, flails around a bit when you pick it up, but flicks it's tongue a healthy amount.

[guidofatherof5]

Wondering what that dark area is around the neck?
Are you sure this snake shed after birth?

[kibakiba]

That looks like a very bad retained shed. The baby is wrinkly. Soak the little one in some warm water and help to peel it off :)

[HazAnga]

Steve I do think that it's got a really bad retained shed, but I have soaked it in water and tried helping the extra skin off. I havn't tried warm water though, so right now i will try that.

[guidofatherof5]

Steve I do think that it's got a really bad retained shed, but I have soaked it in water and tried helping the extra skin off. I havn't tried warm water though, so right now i will try that.

Warm running water. Let him soak in the water for a few then, while running the water on the snake try to pull some of it off. Once you get an edge to work with you can run the water directly on that area. Usually the water will work its way under the shed and it should come off with a little help from you.
Then again it might be a bear and be hard to get off. In that case you just have to stay with it until it's off.
A retained shed will kill the snake if not removed.
Good luck, Nick.

[kibakiba]

I personally use a container with a warm wash cloth, stick them in there for about 10 minutes and then use the washcloth to try to peel it off a bit. After I get it past their neck, I use my fingers to give them a bit of help and let them work their muscles to get it off. In my opinion, letting them work their muscles helps to keep them strong, or gain strength when they're young. But that's just an opinion, not a fact or anything.

[HazAnga]

ok well i just tried what Steve said and it seemed to work some, I don't think I got it all off but I couldn't tell 100%. The retained shed was kind of pieced... it would come off in little pieces when i rubbed my finger down it's body, but I think I did git a fair amount off at least.

[HazAnga]

And on another note, I had noticed there was another het that had a bit of retained shed on the back of the head so I got that off while I was at it. But I think I've mentioned this already but I think that het it actually a pastel (not quite as light as the other pastel but still fairly bright) And the known pastel is actually kind of yellowing up...

[guidofatherof5]

The retained shed will restrict the blood flow and also restrict breathing. Even if you just get pieces off it will help. Breaking the shed will at least buy you some time.
I'd suggest a shed box for over night. In the morning check the container/towel for the shed. If no shed can be found I'd do the warm running water thing all over again.
Retained sheds on albinos are the most difficult to work with.
Sometimes you have to be rather physical with the snake but the shed must be removed.
Best of luck.

[HazAnga]

I was pretty rough, I know that I can be pretty rough with them and they'll be fine, but for the shed box, I have a container with moist moss in the tank with them. Are you sud jesting that I put it in there over night? or is there another way your thinking?

[guidofatherof5]

You have it right.
I use a secure plastic shoe box container with a warm, white dish towel inside. The warm towel sends the humidity way up.
99% of the time after a few minutes the shed may come off. Others require a longer time.

[HazAnga]

What about a warm wash cloth? instead of the dish towel?

[guidofatherof5]

Yes, that will work. It's all about a rough material to catch the shed on. Micro-towels work great, also.
I always put the towel on top of the snake, then put the lid on.
This way the snake must work its way out of the cloth.

[HazAnga]

ok, I'll check on it in the morning and then if i have to do that I will during the day, I'll be busy all day so it'll be just like night, it's seemed pretty content after it's warm bath/shower. lol

[guidofatherof5]

ok, I'll check on it in the morning and then if i have to do that I will during the day, I'll be busy all day so it'll be just like night, it's seemed pretty content after it's warm bath/shower. lol

The water allows the shed to stretch which must feel better to them.
Retained sheds can be a pain. They don't happen very often here but when they do the shed box usually takes care of it.
Keep us posted about your progress.

[HazAnga]

Here's an update on the little Scrubs.
Here's a pic of the two Pastels
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/IMG_0184.jpg
Here's a pic of the whole Clan
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/IMG_0183.jpg
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/IMG_0182.jpg
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/IMG_0181.jpg
The scrub that had the shed problem has mostly recovered, I notice a little bit of loose skin then and now but it looks a whole lot better :)

[guidofatherof5]

Looking beautiful.

[kibakiba]

Precious, fat, little babies. ;)

[RdubSnider]

They look great

[HazAnga]

Thank you everyone, They are doing great, I think all but one have eaten something. Saturday I'm going to try and feed some small pieces of talapia. They are growing pretty quick also, I see the difference myself :D

[guidofatherof5]

That's great news Nick. Thanks for the update.
Now update the baby photos, please;)

[HazAnga]

lol if ya'll can wait a couple days I will do that for sure. I'll have more time saturday then I will tomorrow, free dinner at my grandparents lol yumm :P

[guidofatherof5]

lol if ya'll can wait a couple days I will do that for sure. I'll have more time saturday then I will tomorrow, free dinner at my grandparents lol yumm :P

Well, I guess if we have to.:)
Have a good meal.

[Spankenstyne]

Nice updated shots, they're growing nicely. Looking forward to seeing more.

[ConcinusMan]

Awesome litter. I'd snag up one of those pastels in a heartbeat. Too bad you're in Canada. I have a 2010 female pastel and if I recall correctly, she's 66% pos het albino. Also have a female albino from a litter that produced pastels. A male pastel het albino would be great to have. Love e'm. Nice bright clear ones you got there. Awesome!

[HazAnga]

Lol yeah I deff plan on keeping one of the pastels I'm hoping for one of them to be a male so I can replace my male, then I could end up with nicer scrubs in the future.

[charles parenteau]

Their pattern are very very cool they are fantastic!!love them all.

[Marcman2k4o]

can you point me to a good breeder in canada or a breeder that'll ship to canada?

[HazAnga]

ok guys, here's some updated pix I took while feeding them some talapia.
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/IMG_0234.jpg
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/IMG_0235.jpg
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/IMG_0236.jpg
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/IMG_0237.jpg
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/IMG_0238.jpg

[HazAnga]

Here's some more
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/IMG_0240.jpg
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/IMG_0241.jpg
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/IMG_0242.jpg
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/IMG_0243.jpg
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/IMG_0244.jpg
There you go Steve lol, now you should be good for another week or so :)

[guidofatherof5]

Thanks.
Happy little munchers aren't they.:D

[HazAnga]

Lol Yup they are, I hand fed them all today. The only one that didn't eat was that one that had the shed problem. Im going to try some guppies and try feeding it alone tomorrow. It looks and seems healthy with lots of tongue flicking. So I hope I can git the thing to eat soon.
How do you all sex them when there still small?

[guidofatherof5]

How do you all sex them when there still small?

Squint buddy, squint:D

Seriously, I don't sex them when they are babies.
Can't help you.

[mustang]

pretty pretty shiny shiny

[ConcinusMan]

It's not that hard to sex neonate checkereds. Female checkered's even as babies have very short abruptly tapering tails. The normal in this pic is definitely female.

http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/IMG_0237.jpg

[Marcman2k4o]

i need a breeders name... or number... lolz

[HazAnga]

as in my name or number? I was the breeder of these little scrubs lol

[Marcman2k4o]

are your snakes for sale? jw and i know you can feed them worms....... what else do they like to eat?

[ConcinusMan]

Hey Marcman are you in Canada? I ask because there's no way for us to buy these from Haz here in the U.S. or I would have already done it.

[Marcman2k4o]

haah yea i got to change it. hahah but yes i am located in canada

[Spankenstyne]

Where in Canada?

[Marcman2k4o]

in New Brunswick

[HazAnga]

I'm in the London Ontario area of Canada. And I feed them cut up worms, cut up pinkie mice and cut up pieces of fresh talapia.
And they will be for sale eventually. I like to git them going for a little bit before I sell them. But I will let everyone know then when they are.

[HazAnga]

and to be totally honest, the price of shipping will be more then the cost of the snake. I'll usually only charge a max of $35 CDN for the snake. ok... I might as well put my prices up that I think I'll charge, for the time being anyway.
For the one regular het albino - $25
For the Albino's - $30
right now the two pastels are NFS due to I would like to keep them, if I git another clutch from my other female and I git one or two I might sell one of the pastels.

[HazAnga]

I have to ask... but Steve and ConcinniusMan and everyone else... how quick do you sell and ship your new borns after they've been born and eating well.?

[ConcinusMan]

That would be your judgement and yours alone. However, if the babies seem good sized, rather vigorous and strong, have taken several meals, they can be shipped. Like I said, it's really your call. Those babies do look very well. Big and strong. I would generally wait until they have proven to eat consistently and it's preferable if they have also proven to take at least two different widely available foods such as pinky parts and fish, or fish and worms, or .... well, you get the idea.

I've never personally shipped any that were less than 5 or 6 weeks old and have been feeding well and consistently for at least 3-4 weeks.

There is by no means any strict rule. It's your call. If they have a few meals behind them, maybe even a shed or two, (beyond the birthing shed) they're probably ready.

[HazAnga]

Ok, I was thinking moreso when they were a couple months old.

[brain]

Ok, I was thinking moreso when they were a couple months old.
This is more my thoughs also.

[Marcman2k4o]

yea k lolz haaah thanks for answering my questions! hahah what would the shipping price be?

[ConcinusMan]

Ok, I was thinking moreso when they were a couple months old.

Around two months, and consistently eating, sounds about right. If you're going to ship, then how you package them is critical. So is the timing and weather along the route. Especially the weather in the destination area. Obviously if it's 110 degrees you'll want to put it off until things cool down.

[HazAnga]

it depends on where it's going, I don't know how much it would cost because I haven't ever shipped before. But there's this place out of Toronto that basically do all the work for you, you just need to order the shipping boxes/containers and they ship them to you then you setup the time to ship them, a Currier comes collects the box and ships it.
So my shipping costs would consist of the actual shipping cost and a part of the cost of the shipping kit.

[HazAnga]

a kit might cost about $10 and then shipping within Ontario and to Quebec is $49.99 (plus tax). And to New Brunswick it all depends on the box size and if they do deliver to your postal code (going by first 3 digits) could be anywhere from 68.99 to 70.99 (plus tax)

[ConcinusMan]

I make my own. All you need is a sheet of Styrofoam from Lowes (the kind used for wall insulation) and Ready Post boxes from the post office. Cut the Styrofoam to fit the box and add heated gel packs or instant cold packs as needed. Cost less than $5 a box to do it that way. Then in most cases I can ship anywhere in the U.S. overnight for $20-$40 usually.

[Spankenstyne]

Shipping is a little different up here. We can't use the post office or couriers like Fedex, we can only ship live reptiles via Air Canada Cargo or Westjet. There's also a service called Reptile Express that we can use up here as well that will ship door to door.

It's a lot more expensive than down there too, usually it's $100 or more to ship reptiles in Canada.

You'll also need to check with the method you're using to make sure your packaging meets their shipping standards.

[Spankenstyne]

Here's a helpful tutorial on how to package for shipping
YouTube - Reptile Kings - Reptile Express Shipping (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9kZM0DWQws&feature=player_embedded)

Here's the info on Reptile Express Canada-wide pickup and the process involved:
Reptile Express - Your Shipping Solution! (http://www.reptileexpress.com/canada_wide_pickup.asp)

[guidofatherof5]

Great info.
Thanks for posting Chris.

[HazAnga]

Reptile express is the pricing at which I looked at and their packaging.

[Marcman2k4o]

hahah yea i can probably find another breeder closer to home if it's to much trouble lolz

[HazAnga]

It wouldn't be much trouble. Just costly in shipping.

[Marcman2k4o]

yea that's always a pain in the back side! ahahah

[HazAnga]

yeah shipping can be a PITA but it's up to the people who want to buy them. I'd be willing to meet/deliver maybe 2 hours from here for the cost of gas. But otherwise I'd be using Reptile Express for shipping.

But on another note.
I fed them again today and they're growing very quickly. They've just had a nice filling meal of ASF pinky parts, of which they engorged them selves in, I had to play referee a few times but I'm surprised that it hasn't been nearly as much as I did last years bunch.
I can't wait to see what babies Tina pops out. I think it'll be a smaller clutch then Helga's 11 and 1 jelly because she's not nearly as big as Helga was, but it is still early to tell 100%.

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah, those checkered babies grow super fast. The pastel and albino females I got two months ago have about doubled in size. That's no exaggeration.

[HazAnga]

Well the one pastel has easily doubled it's size and it's only 5 weeks tomorrow.

[Marcman2k4o]

holy smokes how big do the checkereds get?

[ConcinusMan]

4 feet or so, and they get there very fast.

[Marcman2k4o]

what size of a tank??? and what food do they require??

[ConcinusMan]

The snake should be no longer than the length plus the width of the enclosure. Add 1 square foot for each additional snake. That's just a basic guideline. My checkered's eat the same thing as all the other garters I have. F/t Fish (tilapia, trout, steelhead, silversides) night crawlers, and f/t pinky mice/rats (whole or parts depending on size of snake) You can feed them exclusively on f/t rodents if you wish but I feed rodents only about half the time. Fish and worms the rest of the time.

[HazAnga]

Well I sold one... well not 100% but one of my supervisors is gunna take the dark het. Since I'm wanting to keep the two pastels. I'm bringing it in on Friday. And in a few more weeks I'll post actual for sale ads.

[Marcman2k4o]

haha k ur the only garter breeder i can find in Canada!! ahaah

[HazAnga]

Well I know I'm not the only one, but maybe the easiest to find.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

You might want to take a closer look at your albinos... you are bound to have an albino pastel in there somewhere! if the pictures of the heads and snakes were closer.... I could tell you which ones were which :)

[HazAnga]

Lol I probably do... but I would never be able to tell them apart after.

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah, even after Shannon posted pics, I can't tell the difference.

[Spankenstyne]

haha k ur the only garter breeder i can find in Canada!! ahaah

*coughcough* http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/general-talk/8430-whats-better-than-baby-snake.html


In all fairness though these will most likely be gone within a day when I make them available. Just pointing out another garter breeder up here ;)

[Marcman2k4o]

you breed them as well??? what's ur web site??? and/or contact info??

[ConcinusMan]

If you're talking about Haz, he bred his checkered garters and got a beautiful litter that's for sure. He's pretty much like me I think. Just a hobbiest that produces a litter now and then. No huge operation, just a few snakes. I produce litters of concinnus', and sometimes northwesterns but really no more than a litter or three each year. No website. I'm not really running a business selling snakes and I don't think Haz does that either. He and I both just sell a few babies each year that we get from breeding our snakes, but we don't do it for profit necessarily. Selling a litter or two each year, or a few snakes here and there really only helps to offset the cost of keeping our own collections. At least that's the level I'm operating at.

Haz is in Canada, so unless you are too, buying his snakes won't be practical. Still, there's plenty of checkered garter snakes bred every year by many people right here in the U.S. Not hard to find at all, and they are very inexpensive.

[Marcman2k4o]

no i was wondering about the other guy ahahh

[erinlovessnakes]

That's really cool nick. Can you send some of your pictures of your snakes?

[ConcinusMan]

no i was wondering about the other guy ahahh

Yeah, that's two people with baby checkered garters that you've asked about. Both of them are in Canada. Crossing international borders with our snake sales is complicated and very expensive. However, in Spankenstyne's thread, on the first page you'll see an anerythristic oregon red spotted garter.

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/general-talk/8430-whats-better-than-baby-snake.html

That's the one and only snake I ever sold that made it out of the U.S. into Canada. However, it was included in a large export shipment of reptiles worth thousands of dollars. If it wasn't for that, it wouldn't be cost effective to export garters to other countries, even if it's just Canada to our north. I cannot and/or will not ship outside the U.S. I shipped the snake to an exporter in Florida. Chris (Spankenstyne) took care of the export end of things. Exports are usually done once or twice a year and really aren't worth doing at all unless you're talking about a huge lot of animals and thousands, if not tens of thousands in value. Hardly worth bothering for a $35 garter snake but the export was happening anyway, so we threw in a few garters.

[Spankenstyne]

He's in Canada (New Brunswick) he just hasn't changed his info yet. I think it does US by default if you don't change anything.

[ConcinusMan]

Well that changes everything.:)

[Marcman2k4o]

haah yea i'll change in now haha

[HazAnga]

That's really cool nick. Can you send some of your pictures of your snakes?

I can post some new pix soon if that's what your asking.

[HazAnga]

I sold 2 to a guy at work today.
And tomorrow I will deff take some pix and post them.

[Marcman2k4o]

hhaha k ahaha just got back from youth convention!!!

[HazAnga]

ok, Now the moment you've all been waiting for... I'm sorry it took so long, I ended up getting very busy with a car problem, work and other things around the house.
so Here they are;
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/IMG_0261.jpg
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/IMG_0263.jpg
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/IMG_0264.jpg
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/IMG_0269.jpg
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/IMG_0271.jpg

[HazAnga]

http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/IMG_0311.jpg
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/IMG_0312.jpg
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/IMG_0313.jpg
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/IMG_0314.jpg

[HazAnga]

http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/IMG_0315.jpg
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/IMG_0316.jpg
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/IMG_0317.jpg
This last photo I noticed right after i took it that one was trying to eat another, so I had to tap some heads and they broke it up quickly after that, doesn't look like anyone was hurt so they went back to eating.
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/IMG_0318.jpg
I'm down to 8 little scrubs... I can't wait till Tina has her clutch, I already feel like Ive lost a couple family members here. But i know the 2 little scrubs have a good home and can't wait to find the rest good homes. I'm still wanting to keep the 2 pastel hets, at least until the next clutch.

[Marcman2k4o]

whoa!!! they're so beautiful!!!

[guidofatherof5]

Looking good.
It is hard letting them go.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

I love the pastels they are awesome.

[HazAnga]

Looking good.
It is hard letting them go.

Yes it is very hard to let go, but it makes me feel better knowing they have a good home and i can ask about them every few days lol. I dont want to bug him by asking everyday lol.

[ConcinusMan]

This last photo I noticed right after i took it that one was trying to eat another, so I had to tap some heads and they broke it up quickly after that, doesn't look like anyone was hurt .

It usually doesn't look like anyone was hurt. That is, until days later when the swelling around the mouth starts and infection sets in.:cool:

I would highly advise that you feed them separately.

[HazAnga]

I fed them all last night some talapia pieces, of which everyone ate! Even the one albino that had the shed problem and hasn't eaten anything at all. I got all excited when it took the piece from my tongs.

[guidofatherof5]

Great news.
You had a right to get excited.;)

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

It usually doesn't look like anyone was hurt. That is, until days later when the swelling around the mouth starts and infection sets in.:cool:

I would highly advise that you feed them separately.

I gotta say... that has never happened to me! I have had numerous fights, when I say numerous I mean A LOT. Most of them occurring as I am prepping to feed the snakes, I haven't even introduced any food yet and they already know it's feeding time and start getting flippy and nipping at anything that moves... including the other snakes.

[ConcinusMan]

Shoot, Shannon, it happened every time I wasn't quick enough to stop them. When you get them interlocking mouths and sinking each other's teeth into the inside of their mouths, it gets infected and swells up, every dang time. A real PITA to treat too.

All I'm saying is that if your babies are starting to fight, I would feed them separately. The fighting will only get worse from here on out. If I didn't feed my concinnus babies separately after the first few meals (they are OK at first but then later they start fighting) they would rip each other to shreds.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Shoot, Shannon, it happened every time I wasn't quick enough to stop them. When you get them interlocking mouths and sinking each other's teeth into the inside of their mouths, it gets infected and swells up, every dang time. A real PITA to treat too.

All I'm saying is that if your babies are starting to fight, I would feed them separately. The fighting will only get worse from here on out. If I didn't feed my concinnus babies separately after the first few meals (they are OK at first but then later they start fighting) they would rip each other to shreds.


wow that's bizarre! I have seen TONS of fights over the years... right down to the interlocking mouths and bleeding and two snakes with hurt ego's afterwards... yet I never had anything come of it! I understand why it happens, but why it has never happened to me is puzzling. I have feeding techniques pretty down pat now, to the point where I don't have many fights anymore thanks to my patented "speed feeding" technique ;)

[Spankenstyne]

I'm in the same boat as Shannon, never yet had any issues with any of the squabbles & they tend to happen regularly at mealtime. Nothing serious, just food steal attempts and some minor head grabbing. I think in my case it may partly be due to bite sized pieces. That way the attempts are unsuccessful and they tend to look elsewhere quickly when the food isn't hanging out to grab onto.

[HazAnga]

Well everyone, Tina surprised me with an earlyer litter then i expected. She didn't even look really prego like Helga did. And I know why... there was only 5 live and healthy babies. 4 albinos and 1 het. There was one still born that looked like it had stopped growing inside the egg sack at some point because it was like half the size of any newborn ive seen. And anywhere from 6-8,9 jellys :(
I still can't wait to git home and look closer at these scrubs. I noticed while I was getting ready for work, had enough time to put them with the other babies and make sure no retained sheds.

[guidofatherof5]

Congrats on the ones that made it.
Sorry for your losses.

[Sonya610]

Shoot, Shannon, it happened every time I wasn't quick enough to stop them. When you get them interlocking mouths and sinking each other's teeth into the inside of their mouths, it gets infected and swells up, every dang time. A real PITA to treat too.

Well your prior warning put the fear into me! I am busy stessing over 2 things during feeding time a) they will bite each other and cause some massive infection and b) one will go crazy and leap out of the enclosure (even with the cardboard barrier).

If statistically the nips are NOT a problem (and they have never actually nipped at each other that I could see, lots of tongue flicking and high drama though) maybe that is one concern that I can relax about. I will bet on good immune systems that can handle the odd bite, as the stress of separating them is probably taking more years off my lifespan than theirs!

Will continue to be careful and if a bite happens and an infection occurs will learn the lesson. I think scarying one off in order to appease my fear of food fights is probably causing more harm than good otherwise.

[HazAnga]

Congrats on the ones that made it.
Sorry for your losses.

The still born was a het too. Now I have 10 albinos, 1 het and 2 pastel hets. I have sold an albino and a het already so that would of been a total of 16 live babies born, only one so far not making it.

[Spankenstyne]

Well your prior warning put the fear into me! I am busy stessing over 2 things during feeding time a) they will bite each other and cause some massive infection and b) one will go crazy and leap out of the enclosure (even with the cardboard barrier).

If statistically the nips are NOT a problem (and they have never actually nipped at each other that I could see, lots of tongue flicking and high drama though) maybe that is one concern that I can relax about. I will bet on good immune systems that can handle the odd bite, as the stress of separating them is probably taking more years off my lifespan than theirs!

Will continue to be careful and if a bite happens and an infection occurs will learn the lesson. I think scarying one off in order to appease my fear of food fights is probably causing more harm than good otherwise.

Housing (and feeding) in groups is always a risk of some sort, my experience has been that it's very low with Checkereds and so far my Santa Cruz as well, but make no mistake there's always a risk of some sort.
It's up to the keeper to decide what risks they feel are worthwhile in the longrun and make decisions accordingly. Don't do something you're uncomfortable with because it may work for someone else with their different setups, experience level etc. Just because it works for someone else doesn't guarantee you'll get the same results for many possible reasons that might not be obvious. Only take the risks you're willing to take with your animals and you can always try out different things as you become more confident with doing so.


Haz grats on those new babies!

[kibakiba]

With my snakes all of them are housed together. They all eat better that way. It's different for other people though, of course. I think it's the fact they feel they have to be competitive that makes them eat more vigorously. Squirt, however... Has everything worked out, hiding in a hole waiting for food to be given to her. :D

[HazAnga]

Don't most garters like being with others, in groups. Garters are social snakes I believe I read that somewhere. And most garter keepers at least house the same sex in one cage. I know I'm planning on having another cage for housing one of the sex's, so then when it comes to breeding I can do so more accurately and selectively. And I'm hoping that at least one of the Pastel hets is a male.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Garters keep in the company of each other for some reason. Probably the safety in numbers thing. Like I mentioned in my herping thread, just about all of the garters I found that day, were basking with another garter. They sit curled up in the grass entwined around one another. Like a buddy system of some sort. And they always have an escape route planned. When they spook, you'll notice wild garters will always book it for a certain spot. For these particular garters, it was the large tangled root system of a downed tree. Impossible to access... excellent protection. Congrats on your new babies!!!

[HazAnga]

Thankyou, they look very healthy and I'm going to try and feed tomorrow. I have to feed the others anyway.

[Spankenstyne]

Yeah I have almost all of my garters in groups, I'm all for it, but we just don't want someone to feel they have to keep them that way if they aren't comfortable with it. It would be terrible to see it end up with one of the rare accidents where someone gets eaten or wounded. I find mine seem to do better that way but others may have different experiences

[HazAnga]

yeah, I understand, most corn snake keepers would probably be likely to keep them separated because there used to keeping their snakes separated.

[brain]

yeah, I understand, most corn snake keepers would probably be likely to keep them separated because there used to keeping their snakes separated.

I keep my Kings seperate cause they might eat each other :o

[HazAnga]

I keep my Kings seperate cause they might eat each other :o

Yes but Kings are known to be cannibalistic.

[Sonya610]

Shoot, Shannon, it happened every time I wasn't quick enough to stop them. When you get them interlocking mouths and sinking each other's teeth into the inside of their mouths, it gets infected and swells up, every dang time. A real PITA to treat too.

All I'm saying is that if your babies are starting to fight, I would feed them separately. The fighting will only get worse from here on out. If I didn't feed my concinnus babies separately after the first few meals (they are OK at first but then later they start fighting) they would rip each other to shreds.

I wonder if the Concinnus from your area have some type of bacteria in their mouths that most other snakes don't? Sort of like cat bites, but different as all cats seem to carry uber-nasty germs.

For the record I am feeding off tongs which GENERALLY allows me to lead one off while the other is swallowing; I am not giving them a dish full of food to share as that would almost certainly invite problems (or even two dishes as one would finish first and no doubt try to steal food from the other). I am used to feeding six canines and separating all of them, so aggression and food fights between large beasts are nothing new and I am sure I could manage to break up these little babies just fine! Now dealing with meds and infection would be a whole different ballgame!

Since they are still skiddish the feeding time is the best time to get them used to me, and catching them to put in a container seems to freak them out.

[ConcinusMan]

Who knows. Just try getting cut or poked by a knife covered in fish slime and see how fast you get infected.

Happened to Chantel too. I should clarify that I was exaggerating. Didn't happen every single time but often enough. There have been fights where they bit each other in the mouth area, and maybe even drew blood, and nothing became of it. Also, the swelling and infection usually didn't happen when it was adults. It was more of a problem with neonates. I feed the same way you do, but when I was dealing with 20, 30, or more babies in one tank, it's a little more difficult than keeping two of them apart. Some are very aggressive and fast. You blink, and they're biting each other.

When you're dealing with a lot of them, I have to let one take a bite, then scoop him out into a separate container to finish since as you were saying, catching and putting in a separate container makes them freak out and not want to eat.

[Sonya610]

but when I was dealing with 20, 30, or more babies in one tank, it's a little more difficult than keeping two of them apart. Some are very aggressive and fast. You blink, and they're biting each other.

20 or 30? Sheesh, I have a hard time managing just TWO I can't begin to imagine 20 or 30.

[kibakiba]

That's how I felt about my 5. After a few feedings you start getting used to having to rush to make sure no ones eating each other. I've only had a couple very minor food fights with them. Its almost automatic thing with me, I give one a piece, push the others away, give another one a piece, push them away, etc.

[HazAnga]

ok ok ok, everyone, I know that taking care of a bunch of babies can be a chore but there's different ways that everyone does things because they are comfortable with, everyone doesn't have to do it the way you do things just because they may bite each other and end up with an infection of some sort. This thread was made for myself to post updates and pictures of my 2011 scrubs, not so everyone can tell each other what to do during feeding or tell someone that they way they feed their scrubs is wrong.
So with that, my scrubs and the new scrubs are doing well. I tried feeding the new ones yesterday with no real success, I'm going to try tomorrow with hope that someone gits interested. They all seem to like to wander about the cage, checking out their home and all crowding in the cork bark log or the other hide, or even climbing the fake plant that I have in there.

[ConcinusMan]

20 or 30? Sheesh, I have a hard time managing just TWO I can't begin to imagine 20 or 30.

54 last year to be exact. ehem.:cool:

So Nick, I take it the first babies are all eating but not the new ones yet?

[HazAnga]

yes, the first bunch of babies have had at least one meal, I'm going to try and feed that one albino again with something else, in hopes that it'll eat. I'm sure everyone will eat tomorrow when i feed them, even the new one's, I have faith in them :)
I'll remember to post some more pix tomorrow too, the girlfriend killed the camera the other day and failed to mention that, or even charge it... Women... lol, they drive men crazy. :rolleyes:

[kibakiba]

Men drive us women crazy! With your lack of listening, lazyness and and.... Men.... Psh.

:D

[HazAnga]

Men drive us women crazy! With your lack of listening, lazyness and and.... Men.... Psh.

:D

lol, men will be men... and Well... women, there women.

Quick question though... I just got an air conditioner, by how much will that effect the temperature of the snake cages, I have under tank heaters on all cages but it would still cool the cages down.

[kibakiba]

It would depend on what you keep it at. It shouldn't cause too much of a change in the temperature, as long as you aren't making it snow. :D

[guidofatherof5]

Your ambiant temp will be what it is.
If your hides are over the heat it shouldn't vary too much.
My snake room is cooler now that the air is on and the snakes don't seem to be affected by it at all.
Just my thoughts.

[HazAnga]

ok, good to know, the corn cages shouldn't be affected too much either then?

[ConcinusMan]

I keep my snakes in a back bedroom and only air condition the rest of the house. If the snake room gets too warm I open the door but it takes time to gradually have an effect on the snakes. I would keep them as far from the influence of the air conditioner as possible. They do suck moisture out of the air and if your snakes are too close to it, might cause unwanted temperature fluctuations/ drafts.

[guidofatherof5]

Don't know corns.
Sorry.

[HazAnga]

I keep my snakes in a back bedroom and only air condition the rest of the house. If the snake room gets too warm I open the door but it takes time to gradually have an effect on the snakes. I would keep them as far from the influence of the air conditioner as possible. They do suck moisture out of the air and if your snakes are too close to it, might cause unwanted temperature fluctuations/ drafts.

Unfortunately I have no choice in the matter, I wish i could have a snake room, but we have one of those portable a/c's and it's right between the corn snake acrylic enclosure and the stack i built. Temps seem fine for now at least. Tomorrow will be the test though when I git home.

[HazAnga]

Well I tryed feeding the new scrubs and no one was interested in the pinkie parts. But the one albino ate some pinkie parts... so we have lift off, I'm so happy that it's eating without any problems, means it'll end up big and healthy like I'm hoping they'll all end up.

[guidofatherof5]

The rest should follow shortly.
Hoping you get everyone eating soon.

[HazAnga]

The rest should follow shortly.
Hoping you get everyone eating soon.

The one albino that ate Steve was the one that was from the first clutch that had the shed problem.

[guidofatherof5]

That's great.

[ConcinusMan]

Don't know corns.
Sorry.

I can show you some pics then Steve. Hold on, let me get my socks off so I can get a real good close up.:p

[guidofatherof5]

Speaking of socks. Shall I return the shipping sock I have:D

[ConcinusMan]

Just make sure there's no corns in it.

[HazAnga]

well... good news and bad news... I'll start with good news... 2 of the albino's and the one het ate at least one piece of worm today when i tried to feed them.
And bad news... or something... one of the new albino babies has disappeared :( I'm positive that i had counted 4 albino's and the one het. But today when I took them all out i only counted 3... I just fed everyone yesterday so they all had full bellies... and no one looked like they were overly fat from maybe eating someone... They were all there yesterday when i fed and now one's missing.

[guidofatherof5]

Been there, done that.
I usually find them buried in the substrate.;)

[HazAnga]

Been there, done that.
I usually find them buried in the substrate.;)

But But But... I took the cage apart... I'm hoping that it'll just appear out of thin air and it's was playing a trick on me...

[guidofatherof5]

What type of enclosure was it in?

[HazAnga]

It's a 15 gal glass tank with a proper terrarium screen top on it that is very snug and fits right on top, there's not gaps or holes anyone could git out, I've checked and looked... i know that they could find one even if there wasn't, but still. :(

[guidofatherof5]

They are escape artists.

[ConcinusMan]

But But But... I took the cage apart... I'm hoping that it'll just appear out of thin air and it's was playing a trick on me...

Been there, done that too.:cool:

[kibakiba]

Thumbelina crawled up the side of the tank and came out of a hole that was flat as a stack of 10 pieces of printer paper. Scared the poop oout of me, because I came home to it and I was scared that if I tried to slide the top off, it would either crush him... or skin him alive. Luckily, I was able to slide the top just a small amount to push his head out so I could grab him.

When people say they're escape artists, they REALLY mean it. I'm sure he'll turn up somewhere silly for you, though ;)

[HazAnga]

ok, I've delayed too long and I usually take pictures when i feed, but not the past few times I've fed them and I finally took pix when i fed tonight, so here it is.
These are the newest babies
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/IMG_0354.jpg
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/IMG_0356.jpg
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/IMG_0357.jpg
I like this one because the couple of them have their tails twisted together lol, it's cute.
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/IMG_0358.jpg
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/IMG_0359.jpg

EDIT: I fed Talapia tonight and one albino ate a few pieces.

[HazAnga]

Here's some other pix of the older babies
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/IMG_0360.jpg
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/IMG_0361.jpg
This is the smaller Pastel, who doesn't eat a whole lot, but seems to love the talapia
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/IMG_0363.jpg
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/IMG_0364.jpg
This is the bigger Pastel, the one who i deff think I'll be keeping, if anyone can tell male or female from any of the pix please let me know, I'm hoping for a male (fingers crossed)
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/IMG_0365.jpg
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/IMG_0366.jpg

[HazAnga]

Here's the bigger Pastel again, he/she's so awesome!
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/IMG_0367.jpg
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/IMG_0368.jpg
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/IMG_0369.jpg
Keep in mind that in the next pic here he just ate a piece of talapia and is swallowing it.
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/IMG_0372.jpg
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/IMG_0373.jpg
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/IMG_0374.jpg

[kibakiba]

If you take a picture of the underside of the tail, we could possibly tell if it's a male or female.

[HazAnga]

Yeah I thought of that after, I'll see if I can git a good one tomorrow.

[HazAnga]

ok I took pix of some undersides of tails. The first set of pictures is of the smaller Pastel, and then the second set of pictures is of the bigger pastel.
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/Small1.jpg
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/Small2.jpg
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/Small3.jpg

[HazAnga]

And here's the second set of pictures of the bigger Pastel
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/Big7.jpg
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/Big6.jpg
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/Big4.jpg
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/Big3.jpg
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/Big2.jpg
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/Big1.jpg

[HazAnga]

And here's a good pic of the bigger one just chillin on my hand
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Babies%202010/Garter%20Babies%202011/Big5.jpg

EDIT: Sorry if any of the photo's aren't the best, I cut my right index finger with a knife trying to fix my car key fob lol. I cut the tip of my finger as well as the nail... which will be a PITA later on lol.

[HazAnga]

My best guess is that the first one is a female and the bigger one is a male.

[guidofatherof5]

I say the first is definitely a female.
I'm leaning towards male on the second but not sure.

[HazAnga]

Ok thx Steve, Any other opinions?

[Spankenstyne]

I would say the first looks female to me and the second I'm leaning male as well but also not as sure.

[guidofatherof5]

I say the first is definitely a female.
I'm leaning towards male on the second but not sure.


I would say the first looks female to me and the second I'm leaning male as well but also not as sure.

Great minds do think alike.:D

[HazAnga]

Lol, and Steve you were right it was hiding somewhere and all the babies are accounted for.

[guidofatherof5]

Great news. Glad you found the little scrub.

I just found a baby Red Sided on the floor.
Will have to do a head count to see if it's a new one or one of the 33.
Not sure how it could have gotten out of the tall tub they are in.
It may have escaped from the enclosure it was born in.

[Spankenstyne]

I've had babies get out of tall tubs with closed lids before. I'm much more careful about choosing tubs now, any really soft lids or lids that have a loose gap along the sides just enough to wedge a tiny head into can have an escapee.

I've watched my baby checkereds go into the water container to get wet then use the surface tension of the water like a suction cup pressing their body against the side and just crawl right up the side of a tall smooth enclosure.

[kibakiba]

Mine have done that before, they are crafty little boogers :D

[HazAnga]

ok... I dunno what everyone thinks of this but I tried... well i did pop the first litter of babies (That I still have) and I came out with;
Both pastels and 2 albinos - Male
the other 4 albinos - Female.
It was kind of messy and stinky as they were pooping and musking on me as i was popping them.

[kibakiba]

Well yeah, if a giant was trying to push on your.... I think you would poop on yourself too. :p