Ethics question.

[Millinex]

So, this is something I've been pondering for awhile now, and was wondering how others in the hobby personally feel about this sort of thing, so I thought I'd throw it out...

2 weeks back I found myself out of work, I'm a college student who worked part time to pay for school, and gas, and food for my beasties, other than that I didn't have much money. I found myself needing money and turned to the one thing I know better than anything, herps. I know a lot of people breed for extra money, but that's a long term plan, and I needed cash asap to pay the bills.. So I found myself cruising craigslist browsing listings and found myself a group of snakes, and enclosures for cheap, I ended up taking the snakes, (some dehydrated) and fixing them up a bit and relisting them on craigslist at a higher price, I made plenty of sales and I'm actually making enough to fund myself right now.

Now then, how does the herp community view this? I don't sell higher than petstores, I offer full information, and the ability to contact me with questions/concerns after purchase. I also only make sure to sell animals that are 100% healthy and ready for new homes, I don't just dump them.. For example I have a pair of bearded dragons I got for free, however, they where sick, dehydrated, starved, the one had a bad tail, and I'm fixing them up and will later offer them at a higher price with the right information to a proper owner.

I always wonder if the herp community frowns on it, but all my customers seem very happy, and I'm doing what I enjoy... Thoughts guys?

[infernalis]

Sounds like creative business to me ;)

Car lots buy automobiles at auction for dirt, detail them and tune them up, then put them out as used cars for a substantial profit..

what you are doing is right along the same lines, nice thinking.

[Stefan-A]

At the moment I can't think of anything to complain about. If some of the animals are in poor condition as you say, you are at least giving them a new chance.

The one thing that concerns me, though, is diseases. I hope you take appropriate precautions with each of the animals.

[kibakiba]

I actually think you're doing something good. I mean, as long as you aren't selling the ones that are visibly unhealthy, which you say you aren't. You are really giving them a chance at life. At least you are willing to take care of them until they are healthy enough to be sold. Hope everything turns out well for you!

[Millinex]

At the moment I can't think of anything to complain about. If some of the animals are in poor condition as you say, you are at least giving them a new chance.

The one thing that concerns me, though, is diseases. I hope you take appropriate precautions with each of the animals.

I've spent a lot of time around herps and I'm very good with them buy now, all my animals spend enough time with me that I am sure they are clean of anything, any animal I have the slightest doubt about stays with me until I'm certain it's better. I have a male bearded with a tail thats crushed and looks like absolute trash that I'm not moving until its healed and he's back on his feet and everything checks out, I also work with one of my zoology teachers who happens to be an ex zoo vet with some of my animals.

Regardless, I've still had to turn away a few, I had someone try to give me a large red tail with a lot of rat bites, and bad infections the other day. No room, very expensive vet bills, and risk of her passing whatever she had on while I had to long term care for her was not worth it for me.

[Millinex]

As an example:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/CapAnt53/cornmorph.jpg
This was one of the 6 snakes I originally purchased. He was around a 2 foot motley stripe corn. I paid around $20 for him/his setup, made sure he was clean, made sure he ate and passed fecal, and sold him for $100, buyer is extremely happy.

-Mike

[PINJOHN]

absolutely nothing wrong with what you are doing, and there is plenty to commend it, what strikes me is that you have a strong personal moral code [even though you may not have realized it ] so just listen to your inner voice and you will not go far wrong. best wishes for your enterprise

[RicMartin]

I very much agree with Pinjohn. You are getting bills paid while making the world a better place. It doesn't get any more ethical than that.

[Sonya610]

If you are honest with the buyers and tell them the history (if they ask) then I say you are doing a very good thing! I am ultra judgemental and have done rescue of some sort or other all my adult life, and you are not doing anything questionable or unsavory (like rushing out to capture as many wild reptiles as possible for some quick cash).

You are making some cash but also being responsible and caring towards the animal, I get the feeling even if you took an animal that needed longer term care (and that meant a loss of profit) you would do your best to care for them and not throw them into the freezer just because you couldn't turn them into $$$ fast enough. That is what matters

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

As long as you scrutinize who you sell them to so that they don't end up back in the same bad state they were in (if they were in one at all) There is nothing wrong with what you are doing. To me, it's win-win. You are helping the snakes find a real home again, and you are helping yourself, and at the same time, you are getting to experience different types of snakes and growing in your knowledge of tips and tricks as far as care goes. As long as you are making sure the snakes are healthy first and passing on good information on care, it's all good! What you are doing would be considered by some as "flipping" where you are buying snakes and reselling them for a profit. Many reptile keepers look down upon this practice BUT the difference is that a typical flipper will buy a cheap snake, no matter what it is, and turn around and sell it the next day to whoever is willing to pay for it... no questions asked, doesn't matter if the snake's okay just as long as he's go money in his pocket. Little to no care is placed on the animal, so IMO what you are doing doesn't make you a flipper... it makes you smart and the snakes more or less are going to benefit from it. There is a right way and a wrong way to go about this, you are doing it the right way. So no shame here!

essentially what you are doing here is the same as what a breeder does, sells outwardly healthy animals for a financial gain. The only difference, is that you did not produce the animals yourself. A lot of reptiles sadly tolerate negligence so well that they won't even seem ill to an inexperienced person. Then someone like you or me sees them and says oh god... feed your snake! I have rescued SO many starved ball pythons... from people who think it's perfectly okay to feed them a small adult mouse once a month. Once they start getting the proper care its AMAZING how fast they bounce back. (I do not buy/sell rescued ball pythons, I take them in, fatten them up and I give them away) Any herp keeper who criticizes you for doing what you are doing is a hypocrit as I can guarantee at some point they have sold an outwardly healthy animal they themselves did not produce.

[Sonya610]

As long as you scrutinize who you sell them to so that they don't end up back in the same bad state they were in (if they were in one at all) There is nothing wrong with what you are doing.

You are a real animal lover. I wasn't going to harp on the quality of the buyers because well...very few care when they sell reptiles.

I will say I personally would prefer to buy a rescued or responsibly "flipped" reptile, even if it wasn't exactly what I had in mind, over a fancy breeder backed reptile if given the choice.

[Jeff B]

Nothing wrong with what you are doing, you are getting paid for your time, work, effort, caring, and follow thru after the sale....the same as any quality reputable breeder. No need to lump all and/or demonize all "flippers" and no need to lump all and/or demonize all breeders either.

[ConcinusMan]

As long as the already mentioned concerns and conditions are met, I don't see anything wrong with it at all. In fact, a lot people already do this. So many in fact, that even though I don't see anything wrong with it, craigslist users seem to hate it with a passion. "flippers" as they call them, are for some reason a hated group of people. If someone gets their animal on craigslist, then sells it later at a higher price, people get all kinds of bent out of shape. Seems like once you get flagged as a "flipper" nobody wants to let you have their animals.

I guess people are just sore about not getting more money for their animals, and then to have someone turn around and sell at a higher price, just ticks them off. I don't know. Personally I wouldn't mind if someone flipped an animal I sold to them, but apparently a lot of people do mind and so "flipping" , especially on craigslist, is generally highly frowned upon.

[Millinex]

absolutely nothing wrong with what you are doing, and there is plenty to commend it, what strikes me is that you have a strong personal moral code [even though you may not have realized it ] so just listen to your inner voice and you will not go far wrong. best wishes for your enterprise
Very encouraging to hear this.


If you are honest with the buyers and tell them the history (if they ask) then I say you are doing a very good thing! I am ultra judgemental and have done rescue of some sort or other all my adult life, and you are not doing anything questionable or unsavory (like rushing out to capture as many wild reptiles as possible for some quick cash).

You are making some cash but also being responsible and caring towards the animal, I get the feeling even if you took an animal that needed longer term care (and that meant a loss of profit) you would do your best to care for them and not throw them into the freezer just because you couldn't turn them into $$$ fast enough. That is what matters
Really depends on the buyer, I assure them that they ate, are healthy, and doing well, some individuals will not take an animal who was unhealthy in the past for some reason, however most of them hear the story and don't mind, although I've had a few guys try to lowball me from it, lol.

As for wild animals, the cloest you could really get with me is every summer since I was a kid I'd go catch a male/female pair or two and breed them, I'd release a majority of the babies, keep the pair or two, and a couple babies, and sell those. Part of me doesn't like selling them at all, but at the same time, thousands of wild reptiles are dealt with everyday, and a few in my eyes isn't detrimental.


As long as you scrutinize who you sell them to so that they don't end up back in the same bad state they were in (if they were in one at all) There is nothing wrong with what you are doing. To me, it's win-win. You are helping the snakes find a real home again, and you are helping yourself, and at the same time, you are getting to experience different types of snakes and growing in your knowledge of tips and tricks as far as care goes. As long as you are making sure the snakes are healthy first and passing on good information on care, it's all good! What you are doing would be considered by some as "flipping" where you are buying snakes and reselling them for a profit. Many reptile keepers look down upon this practice BUT the difference is that a typical flipper will buy a cheap snake, no matter what it is, and turn around and sell it the next day to whoever is willing to pay for it... no questions asked, doesn't matter if the snake's okay just as long as he's go money in his pocket. Little to no care is placed on the animal, so IMO what you are doing doesn't make you a flipper... it makes you smart and the snakes more or less are going to benefit from it. There is a right way and a wrong way to go about this, you are doing it the right way. So no shame here!

essentially what you are doing here is the same as what a breeder does, sells outwardly healthy animals for a financial gain. The only difference, is that you did not produce the animals yourself. A lot of reptiles sadly tolerate negligence so well that they won't even seem ill to an inexperienced person. Then someone like you or me sees them and says oh god... feed your snake! I have rescued SO many starved ball pythons... from people who think it's perfectly okay to feed them a small adult mouse once a month. Once they start getting the proper care its AMAZING how fast they bounce back. (I do not buy/sell rescued ball pythons, I take them in, fatten them up and I give them away) Any herp keeper who criticizes you for doing what you are doing is a hypocrit as I can guarantee at some point they have sold an outwardly healthy animal they themselves did not produce.
I sort of called it flipping, but flipping sounded too.. dirty haha. All of my buyers are people who either know what they are doing or are very eager to learn. I had a father come with his kid to pick up a corn snake the other day, and the amount of research he had done into various snakes was actually pretty astonishing. All of my customers go through various "quizzes" to make sure they have some idea what the hell they are doing.


You are a real animal lover. I wasn't going to harp on the quality of the buyers because well...very few care when they sell reptiles.

I will say I personally would prefer to buy a rescued or responsibly "flipped" reptile, even if it wasn't exactly what I had in mind, over a fancy breeder backed reptile if given the choice.
I've been pleased with the amount of knowledge my customers have had, compared to the situations I normally get the animals in.


Thanks for all the support everyone, you make me feel a bit more at ease about everything =)

[Spankenstyne]

As long as there's full disclosure like you're saying then there's nothing wrong with it. Yes you're flipping them but imo are doing it the right way, by making sure they're rehabbed before you sell them and communicating the known history. Sadly it's more than some stores do.

[ConcinusMan]

It's funny you brought this up because of what happened on my local craigslist recently. A guy bought a snake from a girl who needed it gone fast. SHE set the price at $180. Well the guy bought the snake and a few months later put it up for sale on the same craigslist for $300. It practically started WW3. I mean, this girl had a fit and went on a rampage you wouldn't believe. The snake sold at the higher price too. Man, was she pissed.

I loved the guy's answer to all her ranting though. He says the snake was half starved, had a respiratory infection requiring vet and antibiotics, and had a case of mites so bad you can't even imagine. He showed the before and after pics just to clear the air. It clearly showed the snake was in terrible shape when he purchased it, and it was obviously much healthier when he sold it at the higher price. He even showed vet bill receipts because he said he was sick and tired of people who neglect their snakes, and then bash the "flippers" for doing what they do. Judging from the vet receipts the guy made very little money, if any, but he did save one badly neglected snake which surely would have died if not for his efforts. The "flipper" sure put her in her place. Everyone from that point on was on his side and told the girl to stop whining about it and start taking care of her animals.

[Spankenstyne]

*referring to the girl in Richard's post*

It continues to boggle my mind how anyone can complain when they sell a snake for what they feel is a fair price and then find out that person has then sold it for more money and freak out. Good for them for working their connections, knowledge & skills. Either work at doing the same and compete, or just accept it for what it is.

Seems simple to me, I mean she was happy with the price she got at the time right? Who cares what someone else is able to get for it later on, nothing stopped her from doing the same from the beginning.

I see it a lot in the hobby up here too & just laugh. I mean if I sell someone a snake for $100 and they sell it later for more money then good for them. I was happy with my set price and then now know that I maybe misjudged the market and could get more for mine. Either way I was happy with my sale at the time so who cares what happens after.

Just my $.02

[Sonya610]

I sort of called it flipping, but flipping sounded too.. dirty haha. All of my buyers are people who either know what they are doing or are very eager to learn.

What about the sellers though? If they don't screen the home, or are not taking care of the animal it is one thing BUT if they are careful and sell to you cheap because they believe you will keep the animal long term and provide an excellent home etc...then I would see that as immoral.

I may have to rehome my ball python at some point, if I do I will likely ask very little for her and send her off with a custom cage simply because I want her to have a comfortable setup. If someone lied to me and said they would keep her long term only to flip her on craigslist and make a profit from the cage and the animal I would be very very unhappy indeed. It wouldn't be about the money as much as the fact I want to make sure she goes to a mature and caring home and don't want her dragged around or mistreated by some adolescent male that thinks snakes make cool and scary pets to impress his friends with.

In fact just reading this I definitely won't think of advertising on craigstlist or any where else online if I choose to rehome her.

[Millinex]

What about the sellers though? If they don't screen the home, or are not taking care of the animal it is one thing BUT if they are careful and sell to you cheap because they believe you will keep the animal long term and provide an excellent home etc...then I would see that as immoral.

I may have to rehome my ball python at some point, if I do I will likely ask very little for her and send her off with a custom cage simply because I want her to have a comfortable setup. If someone lied to me and said they would keep her long term only to flip her on craigslist and make a profit from the cage and the animal I would be very very unhappy indeed. It wouldn't be about the money as much as the fact I want to make sure she goes to a mature and caring home and don't want her dragged around or mistreated by some adolescent male that thinks snakes make cool and scary pets to impress his friends with.

In fact just reading this I definitely won't think of advertising on craigstlist or any where else online if I choose to rehome her.
I haven't had the problem really come up yet, except with the bullsnake I picked up. He gave me a special deal on him and had taken great care of him, part of the deal was if I ever couldn't handle the snake to give it back at same price anytime, and I'm keeping it as my personal pet now. The bearded dragons, which where in such awful health, I did tell her I was keeping, however, who's to say she would have given them to me knowing I would flip them, they where sick and needed out, so I don't feel too bad about it.
-Mike

[ConcinusMan]

I still say that once the owner gives or sells the animal to you, they release all interest in said animal. What you do with it after that is no longer any of their business. Cold perhaps but the fact is that animals are property. You don't see anyone having a fit if you buy a car cheap and resell it.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

I agree 100% richard. I caught a one of a kind blue headed eastern box turtle. I sold it to a friend of mine to breed and he sold it for well over a grand. I didn't get mad that he sold it for that much because it was none of my business once i sold it to him what he done with it. Once you agree to sell an animal for a price it don't matter what the other person sells if for because it's their's. Yeah i knew he was worth a lot of money but i agreed to sell if for the price that i sold it for because i don't breed box turtles. I wanted to release him in the same spot i found him but he was so gorgeous that he has to bred in captivity.

[Sonya610]

I still say that once the owner gives or sells the animal to you, they release all interest in said animal.

It is a gray area especially with regard to rescue and adoption contracts. True, animals are property and the validity of many adoption contracts are questionable, however some how have "penalties" that have been enforced by courts (i.e. the contract states they will not sell or abandon the adopted animal, and if they do there is a $500 penalty).

All that aside the best way to avoid flippers or liars is to do a home check (or threaten to do one) if the person cares about the home the animal will go to. If someone is gathering up animals to resell and lying about their intentions they don't want you visiting their house, and they likely don't want to lie and get caught and have the person they screwed over know where they live.

If I rehome her I will simply insist on doing a "home delivery" as that usually makes unscrupulous people lose interest real fast. I already have one potential person, he has an older male ball python and a large setup, met him at the store that sells feeder rats. I would feel safe dealing with an individual like that as he has a good reputation at the store and a beautiful setup for his current BP.

[Millinex]

It really depends on the person I'm dealing with, however, most of the homes I get my animals from are crappy and don't understand reptile care, so I honestly don't feel bad for rehabbing and reselling and lying flat out to the original owner. Frankly if you provided bad care, you lose all rights to what happens to that animal after it goes into my hands.

[ConcinusMan]

Somebody today on craigslist was offering up a 5 foot albino corn snake. $60 rehoming fee including her setup. So tempting.

[Millinex]

Somebody today on craigslist was offering up a 5 foot albino corn snake. $60 rehoming fee including her setup. So tempting.
The interesting thing, is the adults don't sell as well. I've had a hell of a time getting interest in my adult corn snake, while I've had 8 calls/texts/emails in the last hour about the baby ball python, and both the baby corns sold within a day or so of having them, if you could talk them down to like $30 you'd probably do alright though.. I'm picking up a baby with full setup and extra crap for $20 tomorrow, should make $80 from it.

[ConcinusMan]

Well yeah, I get that. I was talking about it being tempting for me to pay that $60 and keep that snake.;)

[Millinex]

Oh haha, I can honestly say, after dealing with a few adult corns, they just aren't very fun, I much more enjoy bullsnakes and other pits than corns...

In other news - baby ball pythons... Got a pastel in, and within an hour had 25+ people in line for her, winner.

[Sonya610]

It really depends on the person I'm dealing with, however, most of the homes I get my animals from are crappy and don't understand reptile care, so I honestly don't feel bad for rehabbing and reselling and lying flat out to the original owner. Frankly if you provided bad care, you lose all rights to what happens to that animal after it goes into my hands.

Oh I will agree with that. When I did doberman rescue years ago we would do the same thing to get dogs or puppies out of bad situations, course we never made money.

I once tried to list a couple of pups for adoption on craigstlist and I have to say that site brings in the worst, lots of trollers responding to ads for fun and such, it is really the cesspool of the internet compared to moderated legit sites like ebay.

[ConcinusMan]

Oh haha, I can honestly say, after dealing with a few adult corns, they just aren't very fun, I much more enjoy bullsnakes and other pits than corns...

In other news - baby ball pythons... Got a pastel in, and within an hour had 25+ people in line for her, winner.

Yeah, me too. I think it's safe to say that gopher snakes have proven to be my favorite non-thamnophis snake. I kept quite a few of them during the 1980's. The larger, meaner ones were my favorites.

[Millinex]

For those of you interested, I started a facebook page at: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Mikes-reptile-sanctuary-and-sales/143043395766300 if you'd take a look and toss it some likes or whatnot that would be fantastic, hoping to get myself officially up and running very soon!

[Sonya610]

A bit of unsolicited advice here. Facebook page looks great and all...but when showing off flesh colored albinos or whatever do NOT take photos of them in your lap. LOL.

Aim the camera towards your chest and take the photos holding them in front of your t-shirt!

[Millinex]

A bit of unsolicited advice here. Facebook page looks great and all...but when showing off flesh colored albinos or whatever do NOT take photos of them in your lap. LOL.

Aim the camera towards your chest and take the photos holding them in front of your t-shirt!
Haha, we took them in a hurry to prove handleability, so I thought I'd throw them up there :p

[Sonya610]

Haha, we took them in a hurry to prove handleability, so I thought I'd throw them up there :p

Well the photos did make me laugh! Probably not the reaction you were going for. :)

[Millinex]

Well the photos did make me laugh! Probably not the reaction you were going for. :)
Haha, doesn't bother me a bit, I'm sure there will be plenty of other random photos that will pop up later with me doing all sorts of crazy stuff, who knows. :p

[ConcinusMan]

At least he wasn't wearing a speedo or spandex (bicycle pants).:rolleyes:



Aim the camera towards your chest and take the photos holding them in front of your t-shirt!

Yeah, Ladies!:p

[Sonya610]

At least he wasn't wearing a speedo or spandex (bicycle pants).:rolleyes:

Well he IS wearing khaki pants so that proves he didn't realize what he was doing. Cool t-shirt though! Much better than the typical plaid. :)

(no offense to the techies here)

[Millinex]

Well he IS wearing khaki pants so that proves he didn't realize what he was doing. Cool t-shirt though! Much better than the typical plaid. :)

(no offense to the techies here)
Just grey sweat pants =/ I was over at my girls house shortly before bed =(