The long wait

[BLUESIRTALIS]

1695

1696

1697

I can't wait to get babies out of these two.:rolleyes:

[guidofatherof5]

We can't either. Good luck.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Thanks steve.

[sirtalis01]

that female is awesome looking....

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Thanks, Im hoping it's a recessive trait.

[sirtalis01]

she is an anery right?

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Not real sure at this time because she is wild caught, but im thinking either anery or axanthic. This will be her first litter if everything goes well so i will hold all the babies to raise up and breed back to one another in hopes of maybe producing a new strain of eastern snows.

[sirtalis01]

sweet good luck..

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Thanks im hoping for the best. I would love to produce some more of these blue beauties. It would be nice if they got the wider dorsal from the florida eastern and were axanthic / anery.

[ConcinusMan]

I think she's axanthic. Just my opinion. Even if I'm wrong, the double hets this pair produces should still have some very interesting offspring of their own in the future.

[RicMartin]

Good luck. Their babies will be amazing.

[ConcinusMan]

Their babies will look normal:cool:... and will be double het for albino+axanthic. But if you raise them up and do a sibling to sibling breeding, the offspring from that breeding should produce axanthics, albinos, and possibly snows.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

I can't wait!!!

[MasSalvaje]

Wow where have I been! Have you told the story of that pair before? best of luck getting a large successful litter!


I think she's axanthic. Just my opinion. Even if I'm wrong, the double hets this pair produces should still have some very interesting offspring of their own in the future.

Just curious Richard. Why would you label her axanthic and not anery?

-Thomas

[ConcinusMan]

Most normal easterns you see are going to have yellow or yellowish pigment where you are now seeing a bluish color. Not red. Other easterns I have seen with this bluish tint have proven out to be axanthic. Also, you could call it anery if you wish since the mutated gene would probably take away red, but only from a snake which was erythristic in the first place. It's actually sometimes a bit more complicated than just anery or just axanthic. Sometimes the effect of the mutation could be to take away red, or yellow, in which case it would be correct to call it anery or axanthic. Either one would be correct in some cases. Most easterns have yellow pigment, and this mutation is obviously lacking it. Easterns, and other species with this blue tint have proven out to be axanthic.

Not only that, many cases of snakes called "anery" (plains garter for example) are not truly anery. They are really a form of hypermelanism.

[MasSalvaje]

Easterns, and other species with this blue tint have proven out to be axanthic.

By genetic testing or because they come out looking blue? I am not disagreeing with you I am just curious. Don't Easterns in general have a lot of brown? If you have experience mixing paint you know there is a lot of red that goes into making brown colors. I have personally never really heard a good scientific explanation to the precise differences between axanthic and anerythristic, maybe it is because it is impossible to test. Are they just convenient terms to simplify our misunderstanding of chromatophores?

-Thomas

[ConcinusMan]

Genetic testing will not prove anything because there's a big difference between genotype and phenotype. They are not one in the same.

There has been much discussion of these matters and it usually turns into a very long and complicated debate. The fact of the matter is, almost any side of the argument tries to oversimplify the matter when it's not simple at all. Often both sides are wrong, right, or cannot be proven one way or the other. Jeff has done a very good job of explaining. You should read it: Garter Snake Morph (http://gartersnakemorph.com/Snake-Genetics.php)

[MasSalvaje]

There has been much discussion of these matters and it usually turns into a very long and complicated debate. The fact of the matter is, almost any side of the argument tries to oversimplify the matter when it's not simple at all. Often both sides are wrong, right, or cannot be proven one way or the other. Jeff has done a very good job of explaining. You should read it: Garter Snake Morph (http://gartersnakemorph.com/Snake-Genetics.php)

I have read it and think it is a very good way of describing things. That doesn't change the fact that it is a very over simplified, under studied part of our hobby.

-Thomas

[BLUESIRTALIS]

I have not told the story of this pair on here before. I am actually fairly new to the forum. Just figured out how to post pics so i thought i would show a few. Thanks for all the welcomes on this forum everyone has been real kind.(Even richard haha just picking)

[sirtalis01]

ok im no expert on genetics:p....so what would you call this beaty...only a few ppl seen this beaty in person n they all agry to be a hypomelanistic (lacking black) what do you guys think?:confused: she shown no black pigment just the brown/red and som cream color.
http://i55.tinypic.com/28s60kk.jpg

[Jeff B]

Some of that brown could be from melanin, melanophores are involved in more coloration than simply jet black alone, most of the brown colorations are the result of melanin and other pigments combined. However, that said, that snake could possibly still be producing less (hypo) melanin. It's more a question of characterizing: is that just normal random variation of a wild type or is it a dramatic variant (morph)? then is it inheritable, and then further, does it have a predictable inheritance pattern that follows a typical genetic inheritance model?

Hope you make nice snows, Shawn!

[sirtalis01]

The easterns from where this lil grl comes from all look normal yyellow and black and some I've seen with like a neon green/lime color.......I guess I have some work to do if I want to try n prove it out lol.....she still to small to breed so next year I'm going to breed her to a shuett albino.....the pic really kills her color...she's like a durty brick color.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

[QUOTE=sirtalis01;156580]ok im no expert on genetics:p....so what would you call this beaty...only a few ppl seen this beaty in person n they all agry to be a hypomelanistic (lacking black) what do you guys think?:confused: she shown no black pigment just the brown/red and som cream color.
http://i55.tinypic.com/28s60kk.jpg

Not sure what you would call it, but like you said it's hard to capture true color in pics. Good luck with her she is a looker that's for sure i bet she will make some nice albinos when you breed her to the schuett albino.;)

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Got my big axanthic and albino females out and they both look to be gravid.
fingers crossed.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

1811

My female anery/axanthic eastern just shed and she looks like she's about to bust.;)

[RedSidedSPR]

Lookin' forward to it.

[RdubSnider]

That's a exciting girl you have there. Hope the breeding will prove that trait. Keep us posted

[BLUESIRTALIS]

That's a exciting girl you have there. Hope the breeding will prove that trait. Keep us posted

Thanks i will try to keep everything posted.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Just wanted to update that i had very bad results this year out of this anery/axanthic girl she had all slugs. Im not sure what went wrong other than it being her first litter but maybe i will try another male next year. The good news is she is back to normal so maybe better luck next year. I did get to have a bunch of other litters born so i can't complain. I just hated it because i really wanted these babies to raise up for my breeding project.

[Kantar]

how very unfortunate :(

[guidofatherof5]

Sorry to hear about your situation.
How's the mom doing?

[RedSidedSPR]

That sucks. Sorry.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Mom is doing great. I think it might have been the male because i bred him to three girls this year first was the albino with 1 baby and some slugs, next was the anery with all slugs, and last was the normal florida eastern who had 17 big healthy babies.
I was thinking if it is the male i shouldn't have got any babies though. What do you guys think.

[guidofatherof5]

Without more compelling evidence against this male I wouldn't be in too big a hurry to not use him.
That one healthy litter had good numbers.;)
Just my opinion.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

I think i might try him again to see what happens because it was the first 2 girls first litters.

[jitami]

Just wanted to update that i had very bad results this year out of this anery/axanthic girl...

Sorry to hear this. She's a gorgeous girl! I'm sure next year will be better :)

[d_virginiana]

Sorry to hear that :(

[ConcinusMan]

Just wanted to update that i had very bad results this year out of this anery/axanthic girl she had all slugs. Im not sure what went wrong other than it being her first litter but maybe i will try another male next year. The good news is she is back to normal so maybe better luck next year. I did get to have a bunch of other litters born so i can't complain. I just hated it because i really wanted these babies to raise up for my breeding project.

It happens. Can't it's ever happened to me, but it happens.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Im hearing that alot of breeders produced more slugs this year not sure whats going on there.

[RedSidedSPR]

Me neither but I'm guessing coincidence.:p

[ConcinusMan]

Im hearing that alot of breeders produced more slugs this year not sure whats going on there.

That's what people say every year.:rolleyes:

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Well then what do you think could be the cause.

[RedSidedSPR]

I still say coincidence.:rolleyes:

[ConcinusMan]

Well then what do you think could be the cause.

Last time I gave my opinion on that, I pissed a bunch of people off. I suspect it was because I was close to to the truth.

Lets just say that when you breed for certain traits that we perceive to be desirable, then over generations, you also breed for many undesirable traits that are unseen, such as low fertility. We unknowingly undo what nature has done, and that is, nature selects for high fertility and tends to "weed out" a lot of these traits that we purposely select for.

There's just not enough breeders willing to spend years and several generations of snake breeding to strenghthen the lines by outcrossing with (preferably) wild snakes. A lot of these problems can be eliminated by doing so. For example, there's nothing wrong with selecting for say, albinism, but you really need to infuse new, wild genes into the lines. In other words, go several generations of hets, while breeding in wild genes. Then go back and inbreed to produce stronger, more fertile albinos. Not enough people are doing that.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Well the blue female is wild caught and the albino bred to another female with no problems. I just don't know why the blue axanthic didn't produce babies this year. I guess it's just my luck.

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah, well 2 different breeders including myself have bred 3 different pairings of blue anery concinnus' (anery to anery) and none of them produced. Slugs or otherwise. :rolleyes:

Maybe it was mistake to only collect females that didn't get gravid that year in the wild because in spite of breeding, they didn't get gravid in captivity either.

[MasSalvaje]

Last time I gave my opinion on that, I pissed a bunch of people off. I suspect it was because I was close to to the truth.

Lets just say that when you breed for certain traits that we perceive to be desirable, then over generations, you also breed for many undesirable traits that are unseen, such as low fertility. We unknowingly undo what nature has done, and that is, nature selects for high fertility and tends to "weed out" a lot of these traits that we purposely select for.

There's just not enough breeders willing to spend years and several generations of snake breeding to strenghthen the lines by outcrossing with (preferably) wild snakes. A lot of these problems can be eliminated by doing so. For example, there's nothing wrong with selecting for say, albinism, but you really need to infuse new, wild genes into the lines. In other words, go several generations of hets, while breeding in wild genes. Then go back and inbreed to produce stronger, more fertile albinos. Not enough people are doing that.

Richard I remember your comments on this in the past and have thought a lot about them this year. I caught a wild female vagrans that was gravid this year to build up my high yellow line I am working on. She was clearly gravid when I took her in so my plan was to let her give birth in captivity and then release her babies in the same area I found her and use her to breed to one of my males next year. Well two weeks after I brought her home she threw slugs, 16 slugs and only one that had any indication it had been fertilized. It made me realize that there are probably just as many slugs thrown in the wild as in captivity. You are correct in that selection is part of it but something I concluded from the female I caught this year is that there are many contributing factors in successful fertilization and development. If any one of those factors fail to take place (as a result of genetics or otherwise) fertilization cannot occur. It is impossible to conclude that there is a single reason behind it when there are so many variables, many of which we still know very little if anything about.

-Thomas