Birth Control -- Prevent Unwanted Breeding

[Sonya610]

Hello all, new to this forum.

I am planning to purchase 1, maybe 2 Garter Snakes. I have had a Ball Python for 3 years and would really like to get a more outgoing display snake as well.

Have already ordered a custom built cage, 36" x 18" x 14" and deciding if 1 or two garters would be best. Would of course buy two similar sized individuals, may end up with 2 hatchlings as do to "geograhical challenges" my purchase options are limited.

Is two a good idea? Also....I do not want any babies, sounds like Garters are easy keepers and if I end up with a Male and Female I worry about the possibility. Can I trust most knowledgeable Reptile dealers to sex them? I live in a very small town but fortunately have one of the best herp vets in the state here, and I know I could have them probed but that is not an option as by then I will have already purchased two.

[guidofatherof5]

I would say most breeders know how to sex their snakes but a mistake could occur. This is if your buying babies.
Adults as a rule are easy to sex.
Here's a link to a sexing thread that should help you identify the sexes.
http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/breeding/5069-sexing-pics.html

By the way. Welcome to the forum. When you get a chance, indroduce yourself at the welcome lounge.
Welcome Lounge - Garter Snake Forum (http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/welcome-lounge/)

[Sonya610]

Thanks. I won't be buying from the breeder, but from a large reptile supplier that is willing to sell to me, so not sure if they can or will sex them. I am "limited" with regard to who I can buy from due to state laws.

So I take it if I end up with a male and female by accident I could have an unexpected batch of baby garters. Hmmm. Will try to get an older single snake then, but I have read babies do better when raised with more than one.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Tell them you want two males... because everted hemipenes are always a sure-er (is that even a word) sign of the sex, as opposed to seeing no hemipenes, assuming it's a female, and really the hemipenes just did not come out while being popped. It is easy to sex even baby garters, but the thing is that large dealers often are unwilling to sex such "cheap" and "common" animals. (I am quoting that from a large dealer I emailed) An experienced keeper can even get a good idea of the sex just by eyeing the tail... even on a newborn the males are pretty obvious. But I always pop them to be sure. Then I mix them all back up and pop them all over again. I get the same numbers both times... which so far.. I have! then I know I did it right :P I always pop one more time just to be SURE before I ship anything out... so far I have not had anybody come back to me and say HEY this snake is not a female! I would say if a dealer is not willing to take time out of their busy day to sex two garter snakes for you, it takes all of what, 30 seconds? Then move on... they are not worth dealing with. Tell them you will find another dealer with better customer service :P

I don't know who all you can buy from, but the only large dealer I have ever come to trust is Ben Siegel Reptiles out of Florida... everything I have ever gotten from him, including my pair of albino checkereds, was properly sexed, ridiculously fat and well fed, and usually even better than advertised. You Should see the the monster male he sent me.. from above you'd think he was a female! Little fatty needs to go on a diet :P

What kind of crazy state do you live in that has some wacked out laws saying who you can buy from? What does this law state? just curious....

[Sonya610]

What kind of crazy state do you live in that has some wacked out laws saying who you can buy from? What does this law state? just curious....

I am in Georgia. State law forbids keeping any indigenous snakes as pets (which means Garters, Corn Snakes, King Snakes, Rat Snakes...etc...). Rather odd since the animal shelters out here are overflowing and no one cares, but the state sure has heck regulates buying a captive bred garter from another state!

Though I am glad they aren't able to legally capture all of our native wild snakes and sell them in the pet trade, so I see the value of the law.

From what I understand no one has ever been prosecuted however some breeders still won't ship. I could have it shipped to a surrounding state and resent but do not want to endanger the animal with a lengthy trip.

The dealer is very nice and I am sure he will sex the babies to the best of his ability if I ask (I will offer to pay a bit extra for the service). I will request to males and also check out that other dealer you mentioned.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I know Ben Siegel has some albino checkered garters and some het albinos as well. the pair of albinos I recieved from him is off the hook... very healthy animals. If you can't keep indigenous species, for you that means you can't keep eastern garters. At the very worst, depending on how strict the law is...you can't keep any subspecies of garters of the species sirtalis, which includes easterns... red sideds... blue stripes, red spots... etc. But there are other genera of garters that you could legally keep, as they are not native to your state. Checkered garters, thamnophis marcianus would be a good candidate due to easy availability. You could also keep any of the the elegans garters (wandering garter, coast garter, etc), Cyrtopsis (black necked garters) ordinoes (northwestern garter) Radix (plains garter) and more! If this is a law that prevents only the keeping of native species, then I see no reason why you can't keep all of those species... it should be totally legal! And in that case, you can buy them from anyone :)

[kibakiba]

Northwestern garters (ordinoides) are small and lovable! :D
The only problem with ordinoides when they're babies is, they're only about 2-3 inches long and hard to sex because they are in fact so tiny. Of course, I'm no professional. I just really love my ordinoides. :D

[Sonya610]

I know Ben Siegel has some albino checkered garters and some het albinos as well. the pair of albinos I recieved from him is off the hook... very healthy animals.

If you can't keep indigenous species, for you that means you can't keep eastern garters. At the very worst, depending on how strict the law is...you can't keep any subspecies of garters of the species sirtalis, which includes easterns... red sideds... blue stripes, red spots... etc.

I actually called Ben Siegel this morning after I saw your post. He did say he had adult Albino's available and he interprets the law the way you stated, as specific to only those sub-species native to GA. I won't argue with that interpretation! ;)

Having said that I am really not sure I want an albino, perhaps one with a LOT of color however I am not overly fond of the red eyes or the lighting restrictions. I really want brightly colored (i.e. red or blue) eye candy with a good/healthy temperament, being a novice the subtler rare beauties do not impress me as much as they do the veteran garter afficiandos. Grant it, in 2 weeks the new cages arrive, and when they are set up and one is empty I know I will be much less picky!

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

there is only one subspecies of sirtalis native to Georgia... easterns! Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis... so if you can keep other subspecies, then a red or a blue garter is a real possibility for you. Otherwise you are rather limited of you want red or blue... the vast majority of red and blue garters occurs in sirtalis! There are red coast garters and red plains, but they are rather hard to come by... :confused:

[Sonya610]

there is only one subspecies of sirtalis native to Georgia... easterns! Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis... so if you can keep other subspecies, then a red or a blue garter is a real possibility for you. Otherwise you are rather limited of you want red or blue... the vast majority of red and blue garters occurs in sirtalis! There are red coast garters and red plains, but they are rather hard to come by... :confused:

I am not the slightest bit concerned about it. I live in the country where the Fish and Game wardens are busy catching poachers and other nere-do-wells, they sure as heck aren't gonna care if some woman wants to keep one little captive bred pet garter snake hatched in another state! I am equally sure there are no "garter snake sniffing dogs" patrolling the Fed X shipments arriving in Georgia. :)

Now of course if someone was gathering up lots of wild garters to sell that would be another story and I would hope the Fish and Game folks would take an interest and protect our native species.

[guidofatherof5]

Now of course if someone was gathering up lots of wild garters to sell that would be another story and I would hope the Fish and Game folks would take an interest and protect our native species.

I'm afraid that in most cases garter snakes are on the bottom of the list when it comes to any enforcement or special considerations/protection.

[kibakiba]

One thing I have to say...
Garters aren't hatched, really, they give live birth. :)

[Sonya610]

One thing I have to say...
Garters aren't hatched, really, they give live birth. :)

True, the eggs are internal. So do you call the females carrying babies gravid or pregnant?

Perhaps the point was to correct the newbie. Point taken.

[kibakiba]

They're gravid, though around people I know in real life, they get overly confused about my use of the word "gravid" even after explaining it, so I just say "she's going to have babies" ;)

I meant nothing by it, just a little correction. :)

[ConcinusMan]

I am not the slightest bit concerned about it. I live in the country where the Fish and Game wardens are busy catching poachers and other nere-do-wells, they sure as heck aren't gonna care if some woman wants to keep one little captive bred pet garter snake hatched in another state!

Wanna bet? in many cases, they are more concerned about that, than if you were to catch a wild local garter and keep it. Often times, they would rather you do the latter. Seriously. In fact, that's how it is in California.(and a lot of other states) It's illegal to import captive bred animals that are native to California. That includes garter snakes. It's also illegal to buy, sell, or even breed native reptiles. However, it's perfectly legal to collect many of them, including garter snakes, from the wild and keep them as pets or export them. You are not allowed to breed buy or sell native garter snakes. You are only allowed to collect them from the wild if you want to keep them as pets. And don't even get me started on the expense and red tape it would take to import an animal legally into California. In many cases, it's not the dept. of wildlife you need to worry about. It's the dept of agriculture.


Now of course if someone was gathering up lots of wild garters to sell that would be another story and I would hope the Fish and Game folks would take an interest and protect our native species.

Like Steve was saying, enforcement is nearly non existent. They couldn't care less about protecting most garter snakes. It's not even illegal to "gather up lots of wild garters to sell" in many states and even in those where it is illegal, they don't have the manpower, budget or inclination to even enforce it. All they hear is "garter snake" and it goes to the bottom of the list of their concerns, and they rarely bother to do anything about it.

[ConcinusMan]

One thing I have to say...
Garters aren't hatched, really, they give live birth. :)

Of course they hatch. You've seen it yourself. Just because mom doesn't lay the eggs until they are ready to hatch, doesn't mean they don't hatch. They do!

And to answer the other question, it is technically incorrect to say a reptile is "pregnant". That is a term which is meant for placental mammals. Reptiles, even live bearers, are technically not pregnant. They are simply carrying eggs so the term "gravid" applies. Snakes do not get "pregnant" but nobody is going to come down on you if you want to call them pregnant. We know what you mean.

[kibakiba]

You kept correcting me when I said I thought Mama was pregnant and gave me a mini lecture. And maybe so, but it just sounds weird saying a garter is hatched, to me. It might not to you but garters and hatching doesn't click in my mind.

[ConcinusMan]

No, we don't actually say that do we? We don't say they're hatched, even though they are. You're right. We say they are born. But Chantel, It really doesn't bother me if someone says their garter snake is pregnant. It's not technically correct, but it doesn't actually bother me.

[Sonya610]

And don't even get me started on the expense and red tape it would take to import an animal legally into California.

LOL. Yes I know, a California native here. California is rather fanatical about "some" legal issues, and turns a blind eye towards others.

There is a reason I chose to move to Georgia! Great gun laws, your dog can eat as many tresspassing children as they like without consequence (as long as they were tresspassing on your property) and the good old boys don't mess with private citizens unless there is a complaint. Our Ag Department can be a royal pain too, but I have no reason to deal with them, no need for a permit.

[RdubSnider]

Well I would think about getting a redsided garter. There legal in Your state. They have that beautiful red color and for a normal one its not going to cost you a high amount of money.

[ConcinusMan]

Well I would think about getting a redsided garter. There legal in Your state. They have that beautiful red color and for a normal one its not going to cost you a high amount of money.


I sent her the two baby concinnus' in her avatar.(both males born in March) Unfortunately, one of them didn't make it alive. My first shipping fatality.:(
http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/4400/sn003large.jpg
I'll make it up to her next month. I'll have money when I get back from my trip to Sparks. She'll either get her money back or I'll send her another snake postage paid. And to answer the question of legality, she can have any garter snake species/subspecies that is not native to her state. For her privacy I won't mention the state but it is illegal to keep any native critter where she is. Very strict state. No collecting/keeping/importing native snakes. No biggie though, that leaves a big choice of garter snakes she can have.