Interesting locked up pair of easterns

[Jeff B]

This should produce some nice and different looking babies if all goes well, especially the next generation. The female is one of the albino floridas from Ed Hoene, and the male is from Scott Felzer produced from the Mohr anerythristic female and sired by one of Scott's gorgeous erythristic flame crosses.
http://gartersnakemorph.com/images/floridalbinoxmohraneryxeryflame.jpg

[Eddie]

The babies should be awesome!
Good luck
Ed

[ConcinusMan]

That's an interesting combination of blood lines. Who knows, maybe a completely new eastern morph can come from this later on down the line.

[charles parenteau]

Beautiful!!

[Jeff B]

That's an interesting combination of blood lines. Who knows, maybe a completely new eastern morph can come from this later on down the line.

The next generation, breeding the offspring back to each other have the potiential to produce a new type of eastern snow or even an eastern eyrthristic/flame snow, and at the very least a new type of erythristic flame albino (T-) so hard to say how that will or will not look.

[snakelegs]

very nice :)

[Enneirda.]

Those are going to be some great looking kids. ;)

[guidofatherof5]

Best of luck with that pairing, Jeff.

[BUSHSNAKE]

Very nice i was hoping my male albino florida would breed for me this year...but he didnt...little bugger

[Jeff B]

My male didn't breed YET either Joe, still hoping the switch might go on, he certainly seems big enough, but just hasn't met that hormone level yet, but its getting late and I think most of me females have been bred now, my other two florida females did not breed but this one albino female has repeatedly bred with this male and she has shed more times and is bigger than the other 2 florida females and she shed right after a short brumation which is why I put that male in with her and sure enough the went right at it. The other two females will be rested and much bigger by next year anyway.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Sweet!!! Are any of your florida albinos paradox?

[Jeff B]

No paradox, why do you have one?

[BLUESIRTALIS]

The pair that i have are getting black specks all over them every week they are getting more and more it looks like they are paradox. If i get babies out of my axanthic / anery female and raise the babies up to breed it would be nice to produce paradox snows.

[Chondro788]

Very cool pairing Jeff, I wish you the best on these!!! :)
-Jason

[Jeff B]

The pair that i have are getting black specks all over them every week they are getting more and more it looks like they are paradox. If i get babies out of my axanthic / anery female and raise the babies up to breed it would be nice to produce paradox snows.

I thought one of mine was paradox but then it wiped off with a moist paper towel, likely was a little dirt from the dirt shoot, lol. Not doubting yours but would love to see pics of what you are refering to, please. Did you get yours from Eddie or a new line? Paradox in albinos is often not inheritable as has been shown in other snake species, but not to say it can't happen with garters, certainly would be an awsome trait if you could pass it predictably.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

I thought the same thing but it's not wiping off. The female is in shed right now so if it is dirt it will come off then. It's hard for me to say because i just got them a couple of weeks ago, but it sure does look permanent.

[Chondro788]

Jeff,
I just keep coming back to this post to look at that pic, damn those are some nice animals, I can't imagine how nice that combo will look when all the hard work is done! :eek:

[Jeff B]

Thanks Jason, yeah I'm optimistically hoping that the next generation will produce some near solid bright highlighter orange snakes, but who knows what the albino will do since it's T-type it may completely mask the orange, but thats what makes it fun to try anyway. I think florida ery flames produced from this breeding might not be half bad looking either with the wicked pattern of the florida combined with the red/orange, shrug, hopefully she will produce some babies to get that answer, lots of hurdles to get over though.

[Eddie]

Awsome project! I am trying to breed melanistic x Florida blue albino in hopes of producing a cleaner looking eastern snow in the future. One of the albino females I am using is heavily paradox and she also has the most blue out of all the hold backs that I have kept. Years ago I had success breeding melanistic x Florida but all the babies that I kept died before I had a chance to breed them back to each other.
Good luck
Ed

[Jeff B]

Yeah Eddie thats a really great project as well, I would guess that will produce a nice and clean pinkish/white snow similar to the Iowa radix and red-sided snow. Hope that female produces babies for you. I think we will need to do some tradin' this summer, what do you think?

[ConcinusMan]

Is there no other option for producing eastern snows than to use melanistic? Seems to me that is why eastern snows are so "dirty" - using melanistic that is. It's pretty apparent from the pattern on the eastern snows that the melanistic side is responsible for their dirty look.

I'm just curious how you are thinking that using a florida blue albino will make them any cleaner?

[Jeff B]

Actually that is a good question Richard. That is why I bred the male that I did, his maternal parent was the Mohr anerythristic and his paternal parent was one of her potientially het offspring (not yet completely proven), so that male may possess the needed ingredients in combination with the florida albino to produce and new snow type, plus the ery/flame will be in the mix as well. It is my belief that the Mohr anery genes are why he is such a red animal, because he lacks yellow. I have a sister to that male that is non flame and she has no yellow, she is by all visual definitions "anerythristic" looking. I purchased half of the litter from Jeff Mohr directly, but they were produced by Scott Felzer, but Jeff sold me his half of the breeding loan essentially. So we will see, I am hopeful this combo will produce a non melanistic eastern snow.

[ConcinusMan]

I see. This does sound like it has some exciting potential for creating new morphs. Doesn't seem to matter whether or not it goes exactly how you plan. Who knows what could pop up in the process.

You're kind of like Capt. Kirk when he ordered the starship enterprise to engage on a course for "out there, that way":D

[Jeff B]

Yeah exactly, who cares if my hypothesis holds true, hopefully there will be a nice variety and they won't all be ugly anyway:D

[ConcinusMan]

Hey, I'm beginning to find that there is indeed a market for "ugly" garters.;)

[kibakiba]

Yes there is a market for ugly snakes. I'd hoard them and keep them all to myself if I had the money. I love me some ugly garters. :D

[Eddie]

I'm not really sure if the melanistic is capable of producing a cleaner snow or not. I don't have an anery eastern to try. The Florida albino is alot cleaner than the Schuett's are so I am hoping for the best. I was involved with the original Schuett x Melanistic cross and we were all amazed that snows came out of it in the first place.
Good luck to all this season and yes Jeff I will have alot of babies to trade if all goes well.
Ed

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Is there no other option for producing eastern snows than to use melanistic? Seems to me that is why eastern snows are so "dirty" - using melanistic that is. It's pretty apparent from the pattern on the eastern snows that the melanistic side is responsible for their dirty look.

I'm just curious how you are thinking that using a florida blue albino will make them any cleaner?


The snow easterns that are currently in the hobby look the way they do because they are Schuett albino....the Schuett albino does not totally lack melanin.. and melanistic does everything it can to increase it.... put those two together and BAM you have some very confused pigment cells. in fact some of the schuetts, like my female are so dark they look more like what you'd call a hypo. I don't like calling them snows myself... I call them dirty snows. I heard that in Europe they call them cappuccinos. That's a pretty perfect description. for a cleaner looking "snow" all one must do is breed a different type of albino into the melanistics. Or breed a melanin-lacking albino into an anerythristic morph. Either way, you are going to get what everyone refers to as "snows". I'd put money on that any day. Since the florida strain lacks melanin completely.. it's going to wash out all the dirtiness that the current snows have. No matter how dark black a snake would be normally, if they are a type of albino that completely negates production of any melanin... they will be a cleaner... more "classic" example of snow. The only real exception to this, is of course, the random paradox. In daytona this past year I got to see some paradox albino checkered garters that breed true... a few pop out in every clutch. I could have had the pair for $300! But they were kind of ugly... they looked like albino checkereds with scale rot... :eek: They are even named "Moldy Checkereds". Ranks right up there with bloody rash corn snakes.

[Jeff B]

Yeah right Eddie, it's hard to say if the dirty in the Schuett snow is due to the Schuett being T+ or the melanistic effects, or both. I think it's likely your combo will produce a cleaner snow though, but who knows, thats why we do the breedings and can't wait to see the results. Will your snakes in trade be really ugly? The market research is showing that ugly is a trait worth breeding for. At some point there will be too many genes to be worth listing so we will just put breeding pair: dame ugly x sire fugly, take a chance, lol.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I would like some babies from Ugly x Fugly.

[ConcinusMan]

The snow easterns that are currently in the hobby look the way they do because they are Schuett albino

Maybe. I keep thinking that their dirty coloration is in the same pattern as the melanistics and so could be that color because of the genes from the melanistic side but we don't really know for sure, now do we?:confused:


I don't like calling them snows myself.

I agree. Afterall, it's pretty self-explainitory why snakes are called "snow" and it sure as heck isn't because they are the color of light coffee.:cool:


all one must do is breed a different type of albino into the melanistics. Or breed a melanin-lacking albino into an anerythristic morph.

Well there you have it. Aren't most snows produced by combining albino with anery or axanthic? If that's all it takes, then why aren't there already clean snow easterns, ones that fit with the label "snow" ?? Are there no anery or axanthic easterns? Why must one insist on using melanistic to make a snow? Seems contradictory.


..I'd put money on that any day. Since the florida strain lacks melanin completely.

Ahh... but the melanistic is just the opposite, now isn't it? It not only does not lack melanin, but there's something going on with those that causes an overabundance of melanin, so how can you be so sure that combining a melanistic with an albino that completely lacks melanin will do the trick? Seems rather "iffy" to me. I don't think anyone knows for sure exactly what will happen and that's why I mentioned the star trek thing.


Yeah right Eddie, it's hard to say if the dirty in the Schuett snow is due to the Schuett being T+ or the melanistic effects, or both.

Exactly. "To boldly go where no snake has..." oh, nevermind.:p

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Maybe. I keep thinking that their dirty coloration is in the same pattern as the melanistics and so could be that color because of the genes from the melanistic side but we don't really know for sure, now do we?
I am not exactly sure if I read that right but...I think I get it. I will say this... a "snow" as we call them IS a melanistic.. whether it's black, or chocolate colored, or pure snow white... it still is a melanistic even if not visually so... it is expressing the "melanistic" form to the best of it's body's ability. The genotype is fully melanistic, the phenotype is not... because it's impossible due to the schuett albino influence. Schuett overrides the melanism and inhibits (but does NOT prevent it, as would a t negative albino) the actual melanin production, but we still see the full pattern effect from the melanistic, right down to the little whitish spotting on the neck. What this tells us is that melanistic in eastern garter snakes is not JUST a color mutation, it's a pattern mutation as well... because when stripped of melanin which would normally hide additional patterning, there is NO checkered pattern hiding underneath all that black. This is different from some other albino black things (well if that ain't an oxymoron!) where the animal still retains it's pattern, but the black "overlaps" it, hides it, and only when the black is stripped away by some albino or hypo gene you can see this is the case.

what we see when we look at these dirty snows is two genes that are clashing and are both being expressed.... But since albino is a "defect" that inhibits or completely prevents melanin production (depending on the strain) the melanism cannot fully express itself as far as black pigmentation goes... but the "pattern", or lack thereof, is expressed exactly the same as a typical melanistic. The strain of albino gene will always be the more dominating and prominent gene because it limits production of pigments at a cellular level... therefore it sets the bar as to how much darkness a snake can have... or if it can have any at all. The melanistic gene merely increases the amount of black pigment the snake would have and how/where that black is distributed.

When we breed two normal snakes that are het for both melanistic and albino, and babies are born.... what do we naturally say? We say that we got x amount of albinos.... y amount which are snows. We do not say that we got x amount of melanistics, y amount which are albinos... we could if we wanted to and we would be correct, but we don't because the albino always takes a bigger chunk of the cake and is the biggest deciding factor in a snake's phenotype... because MELANIN, and how much of it there is (or isn't), and where it is distributed, will change an animal's look more than any other pigment change. I hope this is making a lick of sense...

It is safe to say when we look at a dirty snow, we are seeing that combination of Schuett allowing some darkness to be present, and the melanistic wanting so badly to express a LOT of black. Both the albino gene and the melanistic gene affect the same pigment... melanin. If it were a different strain of albino that is totally amelanistic... there would be no dirt in the snow! Because amelanism dictates that NO melanin can be produced. The snakes would be born a light whitish pink color(of course, depending on the strain, some may be yellower, or pinker, or whiter) with no pattern...with creepy totally clear eyes and some extra white to their chins.

[ConcinusMan]

Well it's obvious that you know more about it than I do. What you have said makes a lot of sense. Nevermind me, I'm just talking out of my neck flap.:p

[Jeff B]

Well sounds like you have it figured out Shannon, but in my mind there are still a few yet to be proven question marks, the florida albino has an aweful lot of yellow showing, so how much yellow will show on the melanistic and florida albino combo snow and will it be yellow in the pattern of the melanistic with a yellow body and white chin, since the melanistic is likely a pattern mutation (although if you saturate the pigment you loose the underlying pattern) so we will have to see which pattern trumps in this snow or if there is a complete lack of any pattern showing, and also since it is just melanistic right, it is not taking away erythrins or xanthins (or is it to some extent?) so it shouldn't take away the florida albinos yellow. So is it going to be a dirty yellow snow, will it show some checkering or solid with lighter chin, or is it going to be a clean white/pink snow, or something else, or an inbetween? It's all speculation and hypotheses untill the babies hit the ground in my oppinion.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Well there you have it. Aren't most snows produced by combining albino with anery or axanthic? If that's all it takes, then why aren't there already clean snow easterns, ones that fit with the label "snow" ?? Are there no anery or axanthic easterns? Why must one insist on using melanistic to make a snow? Seems contradictory.

The reason why nobody is using anery / axanthic to try and produce snows is because they are still very rare.I only know of a few people with these and we are hoping to produce a new snow.

[BUSHSNAKE]

what is happening with the albino/melanistics crosses is that the albino gene is taking away the black of the melanistics and none of the melanistics have color so calling them anery or axanthic dont apply. All the snows garters in the hobby are all albino/melanistic crosses but nobody seems to get it. If an albino has mostly yellow pigment(like most albino garters)then they should be bred to an axanthic, it would take an axanthic to create a true snow...any true snows in this hobby, i say the answer is no...i believe the silver eastern to be axanthic but...but then again you could call anything a snow, a snow bullsnake is a whitesided albino

[RicMartin]

"If an albino has mostly yellow pigment(like most albino garters)then they should be bred to an axanthic"--Bushsnake

My thoughts exactly, & already working on it, Radix-side.

[BUSHSNAKE]

cool, do you have an axanthic radix?

[ConcinusMan]

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/general-talk/8307-rics-garters.html

[BUSHSNAKE]

i saw that Richard but the current axanthic plains doesnt act like a simple recessive trait like most axanthics do....and bla bla bla

[RicMartin]

You are right. Axanthic radix is said to be co-dominant (50/50), not simple recessive; how that works on real litters, I don't know yet. Our first try is under way now. The snow sire has some light yellow in him, and copies of both T+, & T- albino radix. We hope to be nicely surprised, if not now, in the next generation; but whatever happens, I will document it to the best of my cheap camera capabilities.

[ConcinusMan]

That's exactly what I need and am hoping to get this year. I'd like a male iowa snow, het for nebraska but I'll settle for just an iowa snow if that's all I can get. At least that way, when I breed him to one of the females I have, I'll probably get some iowas, and all will be double het for snow.

I may just end up getting one of Scotts quad hets instead, if available. (anerythristic plains that are 100% het for the Iowa and Nebraska snow plus the Iowa and Nebraska albino.) They are reasonably priced.