I think something is wrong with my garter :( PLEASE HELP.

[SilentWrath*]

Hey guys, I've been a member of the forum for a while, but usually don't post much, I just browse when I have free time.

Recently one of my garters, Silent Bob, hasn't been eating as much. I didn't think much of it because he was active still and appeared healthy. Just the other day I notice something that looks wrong.

When you look at the underside of his mouth you see these gaps on either side where the mouth doesn't seal properly, right below each eye.

Also the upper labial right below the eye looks puffed out. It has changed his facial appearance and I am really concerned Silent Bob is in pain and getting worse.

I don't know of any good snake vets in my area, and really don't have a lot of money to be going to the vet unless it is an absolute must.

Please help me identify and learn to treat his condition if I can.

Thanks very much guys, I care for my snakes dearly, and can't stand for him to suffer.

[drache]

can you take a look inside his mouth?
you can gently pry it open with something like a credit card
from the description it does sound like something that will require treatment by a a vet with access to pharmaceuticals

[ConcinusMan]

I've seen and dealt with this many times. In my case it was caused by food fights where babies had bitten each other in the mouth area causing injury. The wound then gets infected and swells, and that causes the gaps. Then stuff gets in there and makes it worse. If it's treated very early, swabbing with a solution of chlorhexidine and a tad bit of antibiotic ointment put in the gaps along with keeping them on clean paper towels can heal it up completely.

However, it sounds like this is pretty advanced already. It may require a vet to treat this along with antibiotic injections if it has gotten this serious. Also, a similar condition caused by "mouth rot" may be to blame rather than a simple injury.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Sounds like a mouth infection so Make sure to keep the snake warm and clean. Keep the water bowl clean and keep his mouth clean.It could very well be snake mites also. I seen one case where mites got under the scales at the mouth and raised the scales out so it did not close properly. I've also seen mites get in the eye cavities and make the eye puff out so you need to inspect the snake for mites. You should start by looking under his chin for little black dots in the crevices of his scales. Let us know what you come up with.

[guidofatherof5]

Sounds like a mouth infection so Make sure to keep the snake warm and clean. Keep the water bowl clean and keep his mouth clean.It could very well be snake mites also. I seen one case where mites got under the scales at the mouth and raised the scales out so it did not close properly. I've also seen mites get in the eye cavities and make the eye puff out so you need to inspect the snake for mites. You should start by looking under his chin for little black dots in the crevices of his scales. Let us know what you come up with.

Good advise of the mites check.;)

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Thanks, you never know what kind of trouble those little parasites can cause.

[ConcinusMan]

Upon close inspection it should be obvious. You can usually see them moving. Just don't want you to panic if you see some dust particles. I hadn't thought of that because it's been nearly 20 years since I've seen snakes with mites,(it was at petco and was reeeeely bad) let alone a case where it lifted scales.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

If it turns out to be mites they are fairly simple to get rid of if you only have a few snakes. If no mites are on the snake then it is probably mouth rot or some sort of infection in the mouth. In this case you need to keep the snake warm and i would use paper towels for the substrate and change daily make sure you clean his water bowl daily and clean his mouth. I've had great results rehabbing snakes with this by mixing peroxide and water 50/50 and swabbing the infected area.

[ConcinusMan]

Use chlorhexidine. It's more effective even against actual mouth rot, (Ulcerative Stomatitis) has longer lasting antimicrobial effect and it doesn't damage healthy tissue like peroxide does. Besides that, it's what's vets use for situations like this. The thing is, if the problem goes too deep into the tissues, antibiotics will be needed.

One things for sure, if you nothing, prognosis isn't good. If he's not a rare species or morph, you might want to weigh in your mind if you want to continue and try to treat him through more suffering, or if you want to humanely end it. It's a bit of a catch-22.

[ConcinusMan]

I found this for you. I really think your best bet is a vet or euthenasia. Otherwise, more unnecessary suffering will likely occur. From the web:

"Stomatitis-Mouthrot

Mouth rot is the common name for stomatitis. It is a bacterial infection which settles into the gum tissue, palate or tongue.

If left untreated, it can invade the jaw bone; advanced cases may require resectioning of the bone or tissue. One important fact often overlooked by pet owners is that mouthrot is not a disease itself - it is a secondary infection triggered by a systemic infection.

Stomatitis presents as yellowish-whitish plaques, or irregular blotches on the gums. If poked, it is somewhat soft, rather like curds. In fact, iguana pus is referred to as caseous as it rather curdish or cheesy in nature, rather than what is produced by mammalian abscesses.

Treatment is not something to be attempted by a child; many adults are too squeamish to try it themselves. A vet can show you how to work on it ... you should see a vet anyway. Systemic antibiotics are often indicated, and it may be quite painful and traumatic to dig out a plaque, requiring that the reptile be anesthetized and the work be done under sterile conditions."

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Let's just hope it hasnt gone that far.Chlorhexidine works the best. The only reason i suggested peroxide diluted w/ water is because he probably already has some at home and needs to get started cleaning asap.

[ConcinusMan]

Sure, I get it. Better than nothing until you can get the good stuff.

[Mommy2many]

Hope it all works out well for both of you.

[SilentWrath*]

First of all I'd like to thank everyone for the advice and well wishes.

Thinking about how quickly the swelling had progressed in just a few days I didn't want to wait a week to see anything out that I might do to help Silent Bob. I decided I had to spend the money and take him to a vet. I didn't just want to take him anywhere, but after talking with one of the herpers at the university I was convinced to go to a Dr. on the other side of town.

The vet was great, very comfortable and skilled with snake handling. I was very impressed. He carefully opened Silent Bob's mouth and cleaned the areas, then inspected closely with a lighted magnifying glass. He noted one are of possible concern, on the upper palate right behind the eyes there is a slight cream colored discoloration he speculated could be a 'hard pus' filled cyst of some sort, and mentioned surgery (yikes). He also noted the eyes appeared to be bulging out a little. I asked about the possibility of blindness and he said it was possible. He prognosis is infection so he carefully administered an injection of Amikacin.

He suggested coming back Friday for another injection and just see how that goes. He said to keep Silent Bob in a separate quarantine enclosure and not to feed him, and eep it a little warmer 85-87 hot side. Also for me to inspect Jay his brothers mouth to check for a discoloration if it runs in the family.

After getting back home and getting his temp set up, I left him alone for an hour or so and came back. His swelling has decreased 50% already. I am hoping I caught it in the nick of time, and he can make a recovery without surgery.

Thanks again for the help

[ConcinusMan]

That's great. I'm glad you went to the vet because in a case like this, the treatments we suggested wouldn't have helped. Only antibiotics to treat it from the inside will work. Keep him warm day night to help is immune system and an all-around reptile supplement probably won't hurt.

Let's hope this isn't caused by an immune deficiency and that he'll get better without recurrence. Sometimes they just need a little help like this from time to time to help them get over an infection. Keep his cage and water super clean.;)

[BLUESIRTALIS]

That's great news i hope everything goes well.

[guidofatherof5]

Sounds like you found a good reputable Vet.
Glad thing are looking up.
Keep us posted.;)

[mustang]

glad you found a vet!

[SilentWrath*]

Thanks guys, me too.

UPDATE: I removed Silent Bob from his quarantine tank today to clean it and put in new paper towels and water. He had some blood on him oozing from his mouth and dried on his body, so I figured it would be a good idea to give him a bath. I put him in large pot with just enough warm water to cover his body. I added a few drops of betadine, and placed him in. I got him to swim around for a while, then took him out and dried him off with a towel. Afterward, I decided to take a few pics, although he wasn't very cooperative and wanted to slither around! These pics do not do his red any justice. I thought the blue background of my jeans would bring it out, but the camera doesn't capture it right. None the less, they came out well.

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e34/SilentWrath/IMAG0165.jpg

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e34/SilentWrath/IMAG0169.jpg

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e34/SilentWrath/IMAG0171.jpg

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e34/SilentWrath/IMAG0172.jpg

Since Silent Bob has been out of the big tank with Jay, Jay has gone recluse on me. I thought he had escaped at first and opened the tank and started moving objects when he slithered out from his burrow underneath the bedding. He hasn't done this since he was just a few weeks old. I wonder if he fears he will be "gone" from the tank next?!?

Anyways, the vet recommended I examine Jay's mouth as well. That didn't go so well. Jay doesn't like to be held down. He tried to bite me like four times. He's never done that before. I put him back in his tank and he burrowed down again. I don't think he likes me very much right now. :(

I'll keep you guys posted, I go back to the vet on Friday.

[drache]

congrats on finding a good herp vet
and to Silent Bob as well - speedy recovery, handsome

[guidofatherof5]

Thank for the time and effort you're putting into Silent Bob.
It's always nice to see when a garter snake gets good treatment.;)

[RicMartin]

Good luck with Silent Bob!

[andycul]

Glad to hear that Silent Bob is on the mend :) and great names for both your snakes. Snootchie-bootchies!! :p

[kibakiba]

That was how Squirt was when she had a serious mouth infection. She had never bit me before and aside from some skittishness, she was a sweet little girl. The third day I put the medicine in her mouth, she freaked out and started biting me. Any time I picked her up to check on her she'd open her mouth and wave her head around before latching on to me. It made me feel extremely bad any time I needed to check on her, but unfortunately, it's something you need to do. In time Bob should realize that you're just trying to help him and may appreciate it later in life. Squirt is more tame than she's ever been since that experience. I think she knows that I was doing my best to help her and keep her from being in agony.

[SilentWrath*]

@andycul: Hahaha, you like that? People either know the characters and laugh, or have no clue and think I'm weird for choosing those names. Haha

@kibakiba: I hope it's the same for me. How long did it take for Squirts mouth to heal up?? I'm hoping it won't take forever, I really want to get them back together. Jay misses his brother.

DAILY UPDATE: Silent Bob seems to be slowly improving. Blood no longer oozing. Swelling is still down, although the gaps in the mouth not sealing seems larger now. The upper labials below the eyes are no longer bulging out with the appearance of cheek bones. The eyes no longer appear bulging although they don't look healthy. I wonder if Silent Bob will end up blind. I got a few nice pictures while he was getting some sun in his quarantine tank.

You can see the gap in the mouth well in this picture.
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e34/SilentWrath/droid_pics144.jpg

A nice little tongue flick, and a view of the gap on the other side.
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e34/SilentWrath/droid_pics149.jpg

He was starting to slither away, but I thought it was a good shot of his body pattern.
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e34/SilentWrath/droid_pics152.jpg

Full slither now, another good shot of the pattern.
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e34/SilentWrath/droid_pics153.jpg

Another photo of the gap on the right side.
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e34/SilentWrath/droid_pics154.jpg

I thought this was a cool pic with his tail all wrapped up.
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e34/SilentWrath/droid_pics156.jpg

I will continue to keep you guys posted. I go to the vet tomorrow for another injection. Thanks for all the support.

[zirliz]

Good luck, I've to bring one of mine to vet hopefully he'll see me tomorrow,

[kibakiba]

It took about a week and a half or two weeks. I know at a week and a half I started putting less medicine on his mouth and was leaving him alone more since it was clearing up. I was using the chlor.... Whatever Richard said it was. Haha. Hopefully his mouth will heal up fast! He'll be in my thoughts.

The tail wrapping thing is something Mama does all the time, my mom and real mom get a kick out of seeing her slithering around with her tail all knotted or wrapped.

[andycul]

@silentwrath: yeah i love all the films with thosw two in them, Dogma and Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back are the best ones though, lol :D

[ConcinusMan]

I wonder if Silent Bob will end up blind.

I certainly hope not. We wouldn't want people referring to him as "old blind bob" :D LMAO.

[SilentWrath*]

Well, I went to the vet on Friday for another injection. The vet has some suspicions that Silent Bob may be blind/going blind as well, he also told me I could try offering some food, making sure to keep the mouth clean afterward. I've offered nightcrawlers a few times now with no interest. He still just isn't himself. He seems to hate the quarantine tank.

Jay also hasn't been himself since Silent Bob has been absent. He has burrowed under the bedding and I haven't seen him since (except one time I thought he escaped so I started poking around and his head popped out, and one time for an attempted mouth inspection.). He hasn't eaten and I've offered worms everyday. This isn't like Jay at all. He usually eats a little something everyday. I wonder if just being separated from his sibling has had that much of an effect on him, he is usually crawling all around the tank, wanting to get out and explore. It's a little discouraging seeing both snakes not happy right now, but I will keep trying to do what's best for Silent Bob at this point I think he needs to stay in the quarantine tank a little longer.

I go back for another injection on Monday, tomorrow.
I'll keep you guys posted.

[guidofatherof5]

Thanks for the update.
Hoping both your snakes will get back more to normal.
Thanks for taking the time and effort on their behalf. Garter snakes deserve it.

[drache]

it's hard when they're sick
I'm glad he's improving