Communal Breeding

[Chondro788]

This is the first time I have communally bred any type of snake. There are 3 females in this cage, and the 1 little male in back. I hope he likes all of them!! :p

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/chondro788/DSCN0253.jpg

[gregmonsta]

I'm sure he will ;) .... not sure albino x albino is the best choice for pairing though. Met a couple of 'upside' down albino checkereds from such pairings in my time (neurological issues).

[guidofatherof5]

Nice looking group.;)

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I'm sure he will ;) .... not sure albino x albino is the best choice for pairing though. Met a couple of 'upside' down albino checkereds from such pairings in my time (neurological issues).


albino x albino is just fine as long as they are not continuously inbred and then bred together as brother and sister. People seem to just get a pair, breed them, and then someone buys a pair of those babies and breeds them, and then someone buys a pair of those babies and breeds them, and then someone buys a pair of THOSE babies and breeds them, and snakes start coming out funky. Albino x albino is not the cause, its severely inbred albino x severely inbred albino that is the cause.... if only people understood the value of OUTCROSSING.;)

[Jeff B]

Shannon, I think most everyone "understands" the value of outcrossing, it's easy to point a finger, but sometimes littermate or back to parent breedings are a nessesarry evil to get recessive genes going or keep them going in a collection. That said, outcrossing does have long term value and I think at least 90% of my breedings this year are unrelated outcrossing pairs even my red-sided snow is being outcrossed to a local Iowan LTC, however I don't have a lot of options if I want to keep the silver easterns going and a morph that cool is worth it, eventually of course outcrossing silver stuff will be on the menu, in fact I may be doing that this year but if I were to do that I would not tell anyone what the pairings were, that would be top secret of course :D

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Shannon, I think most everyone "understands" the value of outcrossing, it's easy to point a finger, but sometimes littermate or back to parent breedings are a nessesarry evil to get recessive genes going or keep them going in a collection. That said, outcrossing does have long term value and I think at least 90% of my breedings this year are unrelated outcrossing pairs even my red-sided snow is being outcrossed to a local Iowan LTC, however I don't have a lot of options if I want to keep the silver easterns going and a morph that cool is worth it, eventually of course outcrossing silver stuff will be on the menu, in fact I may be doing that this year but if I were to do that I would not tell anyone what the pairings were, that would be top secret of course :D

Jeff, I think you read a bit too literally into what I was saying. That wasn't an attempt at pointing fingers! I wasn't talking about "us" garter keepers who actually know what we are doing and are trying to preserve a trait's integrity.... and are actively breeding for select traits. I know as much as the next person that line breeding has to be done in order to start a new morph, or to refine a certain look, and that's perfectly fine. I meant how when people keep doing it, over and over for many generations... the snakes that are passed around the trade again and again, commonly, like the albino checkereds... they are so common, everyone has them, just to have them, and everyone just breeds sibling to sibling and kind of passes it on. It's not intentional, but it has become pretty evident that that's what has happened. Line breeding for a select trait and to strengthen that trait is different, because I know none of us would ever take two sibs, breed them, then breed sibs from that litter, then breed sibs from that litter, so on and so forth. Since albino checkereds are so common, thats what happens to them because they are cheap and people usually will buy a pair of babies, grow them up, breed them, and then sell those offspring in pairs to the next guy, who does the same thing! Nobody realizes how far it has gotten till the upside down thing starts showing up regularly. That's where I was getting at... :D

As for silvers, I love them, they are awesome for sure... I myself have been tempted but I have no interest in them until a stronger line of them is on the ground... it's such a weak gene... who knows why... I really hope that eventually, it works out. But as for secret pairings... that is silly! Lol... I don't understand why there would be a need to keep pairings a secret?! Not trying to poke the bear... I just genuinely don't get it... I don't ever intend to start being all secretive about my hobby! :o I know all those crazy ball python people and retic people do that kind of stuff... but they are also always at each others throats.... sometimes I just want to tell them all to go sit in the corner for a time out. I hope that garters NEVER ever go down that road... they won't though, because it takes a special kind of person to do what we do.

[ConcinusMan]

I'm sure he will ;) .... not sure albino x albino is the best choice for pairing though. Met a couple of 'upside' down albino checkereds from such pairings in my time (neurological issues).

May be due to a narrow gene pool in your part of the world. It does happen sometimes here too but with frequent outcrossing it can be mostly avoided. We do have the luxury here of crossing CB albinos with WC normals, then producing albinos from the hets. Nothing wrong with albino X albino necessarily. Seems more likely that problems like that will happen with closely related snakes. If the two albinos you're breeding together were the result of separate breedings of outcrossed hets, instead of being "family" then you shouldn't have a problem.

In other words, you really need to be very diligent about outcrossing albino checkereds. Every other generation or so, you should cross an albino with a far from related het or normal. It takes more time but you'll get healthier offspring and better fertility.

[ConcinusMan]

the snakes that are passed around the trade again and again, commonly, like the albino checkereds... they are so common, everyone has them, just to have them, and everyone just breeds sibling to sibling and kind of passes it on. It's not intentional, but it has become pretty evident that that's what has happened. Line breeding for a select trait and to strengthen that trait is different, because I know none of us would ever take two sibs, breed them, then breed sibs from that litter, then breed sibs from that litter, so on and so forth. Since albino checkereds are so common, thats what happens to them because they are cheap and people usually will buy a pair of babies, grow them up, breed them, and then sell those offspring in pairs to the next guy, who does the same thing! Nobody realizes how far it has gotten till the upside down thing starts showing up regularly. That's where I was getting at... :D

But as for secret pairings... that is silly! Lol... I don't understand why there would be a need to keep pairings a secret?! Not trying to poke the bear... I just genuinely don't get it... I don't ever intend to start being all secretive about my hobby! :o I know all those crazy ball python people and retic people do that kind of stuff... but they are also always at each others throats.... sometimes I just want to tell them all to go sit in the corner for a time out. I hope that garters NEVER ever go down that road...

I couldn't agree more with all of that^^^. I think it's bullship that we don't have more transparent breeding going on. I might even go so far as to say we need a pedegree system, even if it's unofficial. Personally I have already asked a lot of questions trying to piece together how closely related my radixes are. It's a small world. It would be nice to know if you buy babies, who their ancestors are at least two generations back. Is that so hard? If everyone did this, we can avoid inbreeding. NO SECRET breedings dammit. We need transparency. Pedegree dogs have it and we don't see them running around sideways and cross eyed when we know their ancestry and do not inbreed them.

It is already starting to get like "those crazy ball python and retic people" to some degree. Now, we aren't paying a year's salary or more for a stinkin' snake so not quite as crazy but still...

I won't name names this time but there are a few people who are driving it this direction. I don't want to say it's greed. Seems more like they have invested a lot of time and effort and want to get a return and protect that investment. but if they are selling the offspring of their prized breeders to several other people at a premium and nobody is talking, guess what's going to happen? Those people will inbreed their purchased pair, or siblings from separate litters (but same parents) that someone else bought... etc. Still inbreeding.

It's better for the hobby, better for the snakes and better for everyone if we are more open and honest about where our snake really come from. Too dang many people inbreeding them, many of them not knowing it, and we are seeing bad things happen.

Every time I hear someone say "my albino so-and-so threw slugs, kinks, stills, sideways" etc.. it's halfway expected and not surprising. Shouldn't be that way.

[Chondro788]

Very good points and I'm glad we can all talk about this subject as it is important. In the photo above of my checkered group, those are all unrelated to my knowledge. The normal is WC, and the albinos are all from seperate people, except the big albno and the male, but the guy who sold them to me told me they were not siblings, nor mother/son. I do hae other projects working were I will be line breeding, but as stated above it is a necessary evil. Its also a reason I have been buying up alot of nice looking "normal" females to breed into these morphs. Like Shannon said, garters take a certain type of person. :)

[Chondro788]

Richard,
The pedigree idea is cool, and if you want to ta a good look at people in the reptile industry who do it well, look at the Chondro Coalition. People like Greg Maxwell, Rico Walder, Trooper Walsh, ect. have been doing this for years and can trace some chondros back several generations if not more by now. I used to breed chondros and had one whos grandmother was brought into the US in something like 1977!! :eek:

As for secret projects, I have always been on the fence with this idea. There is the idea that we are all friends and should not have secrets, but then again if you are working to produce a new combo morph, and have spent alot of time in deciding which direction to go, whats wrong with surprising everyone with a new cool snake? I don't know, just my two cents worth... :rolleyes:

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

As for secret projects, I have always been on the fence with this idea. There is the idea that we are all friends and should not have secrets, but then again if you are working to produce a new combo morph, and have spent alot of time in deciding which direction to go, whats wrong with surprising everyone with a new cool snake? I don't know, just my two cents worth... :rolleyes:


I can understand that point of view... the surprising everyone part is fun! As long as the pairing is revealed after the fact. I can't stand it when I see a really sweet ball python on my news feed on facebook, and you ask, what combo is this? And they won't tell you. That's the stupidest BS I have ever heard of. I have even seen snakes for sale from "secret" projects... people buy them? what the heck?! Obviously, that is not where Jeff is going with it... we are talking off the deep end crazy paranoid python people here! If they are really that worried about their competition stealing you ideas something is wrong. If you uphold a good reputation, you will sell your snakes and make your claim to fame no matter what the other people are doing.

[mustang]

I can understand that point of view... the surprising everyone part is fun! As long as the pairing is revealed after the fact. I can't stand it when I see a really sweet ball python on my news feed on facebook, and you ask, what combo is this? And they won't tell you. That's the stupidest BS I have ever heard of. I have even seen snakes for sale from "secret" projects... people buy them? what the heck?! Obviously, that is not where Jeff is going with it... we are talking off the deep end crazy paranoid python people here! If they are really that worried about their competition stealing you ideas something is wrong. If you uphold a good reputation, you will sell your snakes and make your claim to fame no matter what the other people are doing.
haha if theyre worried they need to get it recorded if they were the first to come up with a new morph, like Brian (the one from snakebytes) did, but first you gotta prove it by breeding it out!...still got some python talk in me(haha still amazed with science fair) i talked about that project till i was the only talking in the whole room!!!! noone told me until i got home that the reason i though my voice sunded funny was LARYNGITIS!!!!!!(4-5 judges some in groups of two 30-45min each (except pairs they got 30-45 min.between both of em))

[Jeff B]

Jeff, I think you read a bit too literally into what I was saying. That wasn't an attempt at pointing fingers! I wasn't talking about "us" garter keepers who actually know what we are doing and are trying to preserve a trait's integrity.... and are actively breeding for select traits. I know as much as the next person that line breeding has to be done in order to start a new morph, or to refine a certain look, and that's perfectly fine. I meant how when people keep doing it, over and over for many generations... the snakes that are passed around the trade again and again, commonly, like the albino checkereds... they are so common, everyone has them, just to have them, and everyone just breeds sibling to sibling and kind of passes it on. It's not intentional, but it has become pretty evident that that's what has happened. Line breeding for a select trait and to strengthen that trait is different, because I know none of us would ever take two sibs, breed them, then breed sibs from that litter, then breed sibs from that litter, so on and so forth. Since albino checkereds are so common, thats what happens to them because they are cheap and people usually will buy a pair of babies, grow them up, breed them, and then sell those offspring in pairs to the next guy, who does the same thing! Nobody realizes how far it has gotten till the upside down thing starts showing up regularly. That's where I was getting at... :D

As for silvers, I love them, they are awesome for sure... I myself have been tempted but I have no interest in them until a stronger line of them is on the ground... it's such a weak gene... who knows why... I really hope that eventually, it works out. But as for secret pairings... that is silly! Lol... I don't understand why there would be a need to keep pairings a secret?! Not trying to poke the bear... I just genuinely don't get it... I don't ever intend to start being all secretive about my hobby! :o I know all those crazy ball python people and retic people do that kind of stuff... but they are also always at each others throats.... sometimes I just want to tell them all to go sit in the corner for a time out. I hope that garters NEVER ever go down that road... they won't though, because it takes a special kind of person to do what we do.

Shannon, sorry I thought it sounded like you were pointing finger, and now it sounds like you are pointing finger at crazy ball python people and secret breedings, lol :rolleyes: I agree with your assessment of the general trend though, and the albino checkers have been around so long.
Could you please post a list of all the breeding that you are doing this year:D Maybe I can steal/copy some of your ideas, lol;)

And yes Shannon I may keep breedings secret untill babies are born or the project sees fruition, but but then say exactly what the genes are of the baby, not intending to produce something and then say "here's a new snake, guess whats in it?", lol, although I will never say never hehe, I am laughing my freaking *** off right now.

[Jeff B]

There is the idea that we are all friends and should not have secrets, but then again if you are working to produce a new combo morph, and have spent alot of time in deciding which direction to go, whats wrong with surprising everyone with a new cool snake? I don't know, just my two cents worth... :rolleyes:

BINGO!!!

First off Jason, sorry about your post being highjacked, lol
But you just nailed the answer to the why the secret project dilemma occurs.

[ConcinusMan]

Why does it have to be a damn competition? You crazy garter people!:p

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

and now it sounds like you are pointing finger at crazy ball python people and secret breedings, lol :rolleyes: .

I am not going to deny that one :D

can you blame me?!?!?! :confused: :o

[Jeff B]

I am not going to deny that one :D

can you blame me?!?!?! :confused: :o

Heck no I can't blame you........actually they are crazy ball python people. I breed a few ball pythons too you know, huh hum....yeah crazy;) lol I was just teasing you, cause when I read stuff like that, that you write, I can visualize you shaking and pointing your finger at the kingsnake ball python forum, and the masses of inbreeding albino checkered keepers lol

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Heck no I can't blame you........actually they are crazy ball python people. I breed a few ball pythons too you know, huh hum....yeah crazy;) lol I was just teasing you, cause when I read stuff like that, that you write, I can visualize you shaking and pointing your finger at the kingsnake ball python forum, and the masses of inbreeding albino checkered keepers lol

You forgot that my other hand is on my hip. Just for some extra sass! I knew you had some BP's but I seriously doubt you are "one of those". Lol! I have had ball pythons too... But they were not exciting enough for me and I hated how the bigger they get the duller and less vibrant they are! But I found my happy medium... Carpet pythons! I looove me some carpets!

[BUSHSNAKE]

i dont know what this talk about secret projects are all about and Jeff Benfer isnt one to talk about secrets since "somebody" took one of my ideas and talked about it like it was his own...secret projects...what a joke...is "somebody" desperate

[ConcinusMan]

*ding-ding* it's on!

Oh, those crazy garter people!:p

I for one would like to see more openness, honesty, sharing, and mutual cooperation in the matter of breeding for new morphs instead of bickering, secret breedings, and ridiculously priced animals. That's for those crazy ball python people. (a years salary for a damn snake is insane) We're better than that.

I could have kept the blue anery concinnus morph all to myself and been the only (and possibly first) person to make them available and charged outrageous prices for them. I didn't do that. I just don't think it's right (especially since I didn't "create" the morph) or beneficial to the hobby as a whole. Might benefit my pocketbook, but not much else. I favor cooperating with other breeders to our mutual benefit, to make the morph more widely available and affordable for everyone instead of taking advantage of the demand for them and keeping them to myself.

Even if garter snakes are your business, you can still make a profit in spite of this kind of cooperation. It shouldn't be a competition. We should all be cooperating.

[BUSHSNAKE]

theres only one crazy garter person...i got the dirt~!

[ConcinusMan]

Oy vey :rolleyes:

Are you sure Steve doesn't have you beat?;)

[BUSHSNAKE]

i sure wouldnt be proud if only 90% of my breeding are outcrosses...

[ConcinusMan]

Whats wrong with that? I mean, if you have a some good genetics between say, two half-siblings that weren't heavily inbred in the first place, there's nothing wrong with a little inbreeding. Seems to work out fine with radixes without any serious problems.

[BUSHSNAKE]

nothing is wrong with it

[Jeff B]

i dont know what this talk about secret projects are all about and Jeff Benfer isnt one to talk about secrets since "somebody" took one of my ideas and talked about it like it was his own...secret projects...what a joke...is "somebody" desperate

I'm only guessing here, because hard telling what spews out of you for absolutely no logical reason, but just guessing you are talking about the flame snow idea, which Scott and I talked about long before you called me up and I even knew who you where Joe, not to mention I would be willing to bet that Tom thought about it before any of us did, since he has been working with them for years.
BTW how is the snow flame panning out for you?:rolleyes: or anyone for that matter? Got pics or is it a secret project for you now, lol

[Jeff B]

i sure wouldnt be proud if only 90% of my breeding are outcrosses...

Change your avatar from bushsnake to king hypocrite

[ConcinusMan]

C'mon now. You guys shake hands and work on the project together. Or not.

[BUSHSNAKE]

hey Jeff your just throwing words around, cant you do better, your statements are simply untrue...dont you have erythristic snow on your price list....do you even have those? you can call me a hypocrite, and you can say people take YOUR ideas all you want but youll be the only one who thinks that...have a nice day, Thamnophis rules

[Stefan-A]

Time for everyone to calm the **** down.

[RicMartin]

Guys, we love this forum for a thousand reasons: quality info, low drama & beautiful snakes being the major ingredients for me. As informative as this thread has been, I think we can all find ways to express ourselves without putting others down. I read your posts daily, I know you are all better than what this thread is portraying. Thanks.
Ric

[BUSHSNAKE]

i agree!

[guidofatherof5]

Guys, we love this forum for a thousand reasons: quality info, low drama & beautiful snakes being the major ingredients for me. As informative as this thread has been, I think we can all find ways to express ourselves without putting others down. I read your posts daily, I know you are all better than what this thread is portraying. Thanks.
Ric

Very well put;)

[ConcinusMan]

Must be something going around. First I go nuts, then these guys go nuts, we'll all go nuts, it'll be anarchy!:p

[Jeff B]

hey Jeff your just throwing words around, cant you do better, your statements are simply untrue...dont you have erythristic snow on your price list....do you even have those? you can call me a hypocrite, and you can say people take YOUR ideas all you want but youll be the only one who thinks that...have a nice day, Thamnophis rules

First off Joe I never said that you took my ideas, so I have absolutely no idea what so ever why you are attacking me and going off the handle like this.

Second I had erythristic snows on my price list last year because I bred a Carteret ery het snow to a Carteret ery het snow and had a legitamate shot at producing them, even thought there weren't any in the litter, only erys, albinos, and melanistics. It's not a new idea it's simply what could be produced from that pair, which by the way I purchased that pair from Scott, what part of that was your idea???

And yes I have other ideas and breeding plans with other snakes and you would have no idea what they are, and they aren't your ideas and they aren't your snakes, and weather I share those ideas or not is my prerogative.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I am closing this thread, seeing as discussion regarding the thread topic has ceased.