please help me identify my garter snake

[snake85]

Good evening to you all

I have one month since this Thamnophis purchased at pet stores (The keeping of animals and their health is very good) except that when I purchase the salesman told me it was a female Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis 08mois.
After more research I agree with him that this is a female, 8mois can be (tell me have you think) by cons I do not agree on sirtalis sirtalis and you?


http://img10.hostingpics.net/thumbs/mini_463856IMG1575.jpg (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=463856IMG1575.jpg)


http://img10.hostingpics.net/thumbs/mini_746740IMG1580.jpg (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=746740IMG1580.jpg)

http://img10.hostingpics.net/thumbs/mini_840283IMG1587.jpg (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=840283IMG1587.jpg)


http://img10.hostingpics.net/thumbs/mini_615469IMG1584.jpg (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=615469IMG1584.jpg)

http://img10.hostingpics.net/thumbs/mini_814096IMG1582.jpg (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=814096IMG1582.jpg)

http://img10.hostingpics.net/thumbs/mini_240426IMG1581.jpg (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=240426IMG1581.jpg)

thank you in advance

[gartergal]

looks like my ribbon snake on the thread below this :D:p

[snake85]

looks like my ribbon snake on the thread below this :D:p

can you tell me the sub species? I think it was a garter snake sauritus nitae but I like to have experts like you confirmation.

[indigoman]

Ribbon snake

[snake85]

Ribbon snake

Ribbon snake (ok) but which sub species ?

Ribbon snake Ribon snake

Ribbon snake Nitae

Ribbon snake septentrionalis

Ribbon snake sackenii

thank you for your help

[gartergal]

can you tell me the sub species? I think it was a garter snake sauritus nitae but I like to have experts like you confirmation.

sorry im just getting into ribbons , i got mine handed to me when i went to get some garters . so im not 100% certain what my own is sorry , but im quite certain it is a ribbon you've got :) :D

[EasternGirl]

This is my snake Selena....she is a sirtalis sirtalis....I do not believe that is what you have there....but I am not sure what you have.

[zooplan]

A photo of the top of the head will be helpful, to tell if it is
T.sauritus or T. proximus.

[EasternGirl]

The tail does look like that of a ribbon snake...

[kibakiba]

It is a ribbon, but the subspecies, I don't know. It just has that thin body and big adorable eyes that ribbons all seem to have!

[gregmonsta]

Definately proximus :rolleyes: ... orarius (interupted lateral, brown flecking, etc) I think ... also looks wild caught and appears to have facial damage (as well as other marks on it's body). Do not believe the shop. From the same batch of imports that have been coming to Europe for the last 3 or more years. I would advise a health check from a good local vet.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Yea... definitely a ribbon snake! Pretty little thing... fatten her up though, she's definitely underweight! Feed her as much as she wants! Good luck to you!

[snake85]

Definately proximus :rolleyes: ... orarius (interupted lateral, brown flecking, etc) I think ... also looks wild caught and appears to have facial damage (as well as other marks on it's body). Do not believe the shop. From the same batch of imports that have been coming to Europe for the last 3 or more years. I would advise a health check from a good local vet.

thank you I have already taken a vet appointment for a preventive treatment against internal parasites. I think my garter snake is not a Proximus Because it has seven scales above the mouth while Thamnophis proximus eight scales above the mouth . I'll take pictures of his head to better identify it. I do not know if it is clearly visible in the photos but already put his bands are colored green and blue all over my body at some points there are blue-green scales. I have to treat stomatitis and indeed it has marks of injuries on his body a few scales.


Yea... definitely a ribbon snake! Pretty little thing... fatten her up though, she's definitely underweight! Feed her as much as she wants! Good luck to you!


thank you for your help. I fed four platty every four or five days (should I increase the quantity?)

cordially

[kibakiba]

There are different subspecies of proximus. It definitely looks like a T. proximus orarius, like Greg said. Google "thamnophis proximus orarius" and look at the images. A lot of them look exactly like your snake.

I read somewhere that platties were bad for garters... I don't remember where, though.
I'd feed her 4 every other day or more. She does look skinny.

[snake85]

There are different subspecies of proximus. It definitely looks like a T. proximus orarius, like Greg said. Google "thamnophis proximus orarius" and look at the images. A lot of them look exactly like your snake.

I read somewhere that platties were bad for garters... I don't remember where, though.
I'd feed her 4 every other day or more. She does look skinny.

at first I gave him guppies but I started a kennel of platty recently. I inquired about
several forums and none said it was harmful (if you find where we would speak well). I'll put pictures in more detail at its head.

thank you again on the incentive that you wear on

[snake85]

Here are photos of the head of my garter, I hope this may help to identify


http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/651430tte1.png (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=651430tte1.png)

http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/167067tte2.png (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=167067tte2.png)

http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/911195tte3.png (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=911195tte3.png)

http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/273223IMG1598.jpg (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=273223IMG1598.jpg)

[kibakiba]

Awww, Poor girl. Her face is all banged up!
I think I read it on this forum, about the platties. Someone had four? snakes that died after eating platties. Though, it seems like it could have been something else all together, thiaminase usually takes longer than a couple months to affect them I believe. What made you get platties instead of guppies?

Also, I'd like to say that I could be wrong about the platties, I haven't slept in 2 days so sometimes I think I saw something but I really didn't ;)

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Awww, Poor girl. Her face is all banged up!
I think I read it on this forum, about the platties. Someone had four? snakes that died after eating platties. Though, it seems like it could have been something else all together, thiaminase usually takes longer than a couple months to affect them I believe. What made you get platties instead of guppies?

Also, I'd like to say that I could be wrong about the platties, I haven't slept in 2 days so sometimes I think I saw something but I really didn't ;)

Hehe... I don't think it was the fact that they were platies. Maybe the platies were treated with a harmful chemical or something! But platies themselves should be safe to feed. They are a relative of the guppy :)

[Stefan-A]

They are a relative of the guppy :)
That is no guarantee.

[snake85]

Awww, Poor girl. Her face is all banged up!
I think I read it on this forum, about the platties. Someone had four? snakes that died after eating platties. Though, it seems like it could have been something else all together, thiaminase usually takes longer than a couple months to affect them I believe. What made you get platties instead of guppies?

Also, I'd like to say that I could be wrong about the platties, I haven't slept in 2 days so sometimes I think I saw something but I really didn't ;)

it was worse 15 days ago but I care for and since she made me a moult it has improved. For platty inform me I will still see what you say.

Otherwise someone would there be a confirmation or Thamnophis proximus Thamnophis sauritus? because I'm still not fixed.

[ConcinusMan]

I'm going with my original ID of T. proximus orarius. (Gulf Coast Ribbon Snake) Regardless of what the salesperson told you, it's not a garter snake and it's not even close to being mistaken for T. sirtalis. However, it's possible I'm mistaken and it could be Thamnophis sauritus. They can look very much like a T. proximus depending on location.

Same thing happens around here. I always see ribbon snakes for sale and they are nearly always labeled as "garter snake" T. sirtalis. One look at a ribbon snake compared to a garter and the difference is obvious as night and day. First thing you'll notice is that they are thinner and their body thickness doesn't taper as abruptly as a garter snake. Ribbons tend to look very long and thin when compared to garters. Ribbon snake bodies sort of look like a whip. The look of the head gives them away too. Head tends to be narrow and pointy compared to a garter snake.

Ribbon:
http://www.esf.edu/pubprog/images/snakes/ribbon.jpg

Garter:
http://www.michigan.gov/images/butlers_garter_snake_101582_7.jpg
http://www.arkive.org/media/8E/8EB888CC-6B9E-4C60-8522-0717D4E026D4/Presentation.Large/Common-garter-snake.jpg

[kibakiba]

Hehe... I don't think it was the fact that they were platies. Maybe the platies were treated with a harmful chemical or something! But platies themselves should be safe to feed. They are a relative of the guppy :)

Yeah, that's why I added that I could be wrong and that it seemed like it could be something else entirely. It's hard to remember the information I read when I haven't slept. ;)

[snake85]

A photo of the top of the head will be helpful, to tell if it is
T.sauritus or T. proximus.

Please ZOOPLAN, I put the photos on page two of his head please tell me if Proximus has or has Sauritus. I feel that you may be able to tell me.

Thank you

[gregmonsta]

Proximus :rolleyes: ...

[gregmonsta]

I think my garter snake is not a Proximus Because it has seven scales above the mouth while Thamnophis proximus eight scales above the mouth.


This can vary and is not always definite ;)

[ConcinusMan]

True. I don't know if the two (proximus and sauritus) have a difference when it comes to dorsal scale rows. If they do, check that too. If both the dorsal row count AND the labial count match for sauritus then I'd begin to doubt the proximus ID. I wouldn't doubt it's a proximus just because the labial scale count is off. I'd need more than that.

T. ordinoides labial scale counts vary from as low as 5, all the way up to 7. Sometimes they have more on one side than the other. It's just not set in stone. I've seen most T. sirtalis (concinnus) with only 7 but I've also seen them with 8 upper labials. You really need more than one indicator, 3 if possible to be sure.

[zooplan]

Ribbon Snakes are easily distinguishable from other Garter Sankes by body mass, like T.fulvus by it´s black tongue or T.rufipunctatus by it´s head shape.
Your snake is a T.proximus (parietal spots close together fusing to one)
I would guess a T.p.proximus because T.p.orarius should have a wider and
well distinct yellow dorsal stripe.

[gregmonsta]

Yes it was.:D

C'mon now. They call them ribbon snakes, and garter snakes for a reason. They're different and distinguishable from one another. Stop calling them garter snakes.:mad: What are you trying to do, get a job at Petco?:p



I'm not sure of anything anymore. Too much conflicting information. You just described the snake shown in this link, which is said to be a gulf coast ribbon snake T. proximus orarius and this one has 8 upper labials and looks very different from the snake in question.(the subject of this thread)

Thamnophis proximus orarius - Gulf Coast Ribbon Snake (http://www.californiaherps.com/noncal/misc/miscsnakes/pages/t.p.orarius.html)

Forget it Snake85, none of us know what we're talking about. We don't know at all what you have. Stefan thinks it's a garter snake and the rest of us seem to be completely lost.:rolleyes:

The brown flecking and the ventrolateral not being uniform/a definitive border still have me saying orarius.

At any rate .... it's a proximus :D

[gregmonsta]

Proximus proximus - uniform black and very wide, definitie ventro-lateral stripe

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//595/medium/P1010269_Small_.JPG

[zooplan]

Fons has some interesting photos on his sight:
Thamnophis proximus pictures (http://www.kousebandslangen.nl/Fotomappenthamnophis/Thamnophis%20proximus%20pictures/album/index.html)
Those are inclusive habitat information to confirm subspecies!

[guidofatherof5]

Awesome photos. Thanks for the link, Udo.

[ConcinusMan]

That only confuses the matter more. A snake shown as T. proximus proximus looks just like this snake and one shown as T. proximus orius looks nothing like it. And yet, I keep seeing just the opposite as well. Well I guess we may not know the subspecies but at least we know it's a T. proximus. Maybe:rolleyes:

[gregmonsta]

Fons has some interesting photos on his sight:
Thamnophis proximus pictures (http://www.kousebandslangen.nl/Fotomappenthamnophis/Thamnophis%20proximus%20pictures/album/index.html)
Those are inclusive habitat information to confirm subspecies!

:rolleyes: There's still a variety of colour forms of both represented. Two for orarius within the first two pictures. As their ranges overlap (and there is the possibility for intergrades) the colours of both seem to become more similar probably due to use of the similar habitats in which certain colour schemes may be more advantageous.
I'm sure my Panama could be questioned also but to me the markers are present (ie - the brownish flecks on her dorso-lateral bar as well as the not so well defined/faded/broken ventro-lateral that is usually very heavy in proximus).
As far as the suspected integrades that are shown I would have named them as one or the other from what I saw.
Lets get a DNA lab on the go :D.

[snake85]

I see that my subject has attracted considerable investment from you and I thank you warmly. by reading all your posts I can conclude several things, color and appearance dispute over his body (speck, positioning lines) are identical to Thamnophis Proximus like pictures of this website : Thamnophis proximus pictures (http://www.kousebandslangen.nl/Fotomappenthamnophis/Thamnophis%20proximus%20pictures/album/index.html)

I had a doubt made the differance in the number of scales in his mouth but you have explained to me that this could be the case in the same espèce.Donc I think that consolidating all of your message can be said with high probability Thamnophis Proximus for subspecies or it is Orarius Proximus is or may be an intergrade.

I thank you all and I think is great forum with people interested in everything and I like it very much.

Ps/none of you had pictures of garter sauritus which corresponds to my snake. Finally, I hope it will break if a party's reasoning.