How long...

[kibakiba]

Mama is, of course, very gravid. I plan on using the tank she's in for when she gives birth, but I'll need to take Snakey out and clean it out really good before she does. The problem with that is I don't know when she became gravid. Her belly started growing slightly in December, but I didn't notice exactly how big she was until early last month. She's also shed 4 times since the beginning of December. Is there any way for me to tell when she might pop instead of just saying "within 2 months"? I want to have everything ready for her before it happens to help keep her happy. It's my first time ever dealing with a gravid snake, so it's obvious that I'm extremely nervous.

[zooplan]

If you could post a picture of the whole snake (not curled up),
you might get some educated guesses.
Do you know?
We love guessing:D

[guidofatherof5]

That's a difficult question to answer as different snakes show different signs when they are about to deliver.
I don't know the gestation period for Northwestern garter snakes (T.ordinoides) and have never bred them before.
According to "The Garter Snake", book. Oregon and Washington species had a 9 week gestation period.
If your snake became gravid in late Dec.? a due day could be just about anytime now. I think I would prepare for it now and not be caught off guard.
Better to have everything ready and not need it than to need it and not have it ready;)
Check out this thread as delivery observations were discussed:
http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/breeding/8029-about-gravid-garter-snake.html

I'm hoping my T.ordinoides will bred this year.;)

[kibakiba]

Richard said it was about 3 months and that it would be within 2 months I think... I have a picture of her a week ago, I don't want to bother her right now... But she's about double her normal size.

I'll thoroughly clean the tank tomorrow when I get up and move Snakey in with the babies. All of them are about his size, except for Thumbelina and Squirt. They all seem to enjoy his company, too. I let the adults visit with the babies every now and then.

She is pretty restless, which is extremely unusual for her so maybe it will be soon. Either way, I am extremely nervous about it.
Ordinoides are picky about being gravid it seems, they can hold sperm for a long time. Which is why I have no idea when she became gravid. She's mated about 6 times since I got her in June.

[guidofatherof5]

It sounds like babies are in future, soon.;)

[ConcinusMan]

The problem with them is that they sometimes mate (sometimes several times with several males) then ovulate later. There's no way to know precisely when she became gravid. I can tell by looking at her, and from your description that she's in the late stages. All I can say is that it's going to happen soon. Sorry I can't be more precise. 9 weeks does sound about right but without knowing exactly when she ovulated, we're just guessing when she'll have them.

[kibakiba]

Yeah... They need to make a pregnancy test for garters so it can tell you when they are pregnant :D
At any rate, Snakey is enjoying the babies... And he's cheating on Mama with Runt. He keeps courting her, even though shes still a baby.
He laid his head next to hers and she pulled her head away and looked at him then literally jumped and hid. It was almost as if she was like "Huh? AHHH what are you doing, old man?!" Haha. Poor Snakey got rejected.

[guidofatherof5]

[QUOTE=kibakiba;152440]Yeah... They need to make a pregnancy test for garters so it can tell you when they are pregnant :D
QUOTE]

Your reading my mind.
Getting them to pee on the test strip might be a problem.:D

[ConcinusMan]

He keeps courting her, even though shes still a baby.

If that truly is the case then that is your first clue that she is NOT a baby anymore.;) I've seen females as small as 10 inches, give birth to a couple of babies.

[kibakiba]

Honestly, Snakey is just horny I think. He even courted with Snap and Ember. He quit after a while and they're all just hanging out. There is also a matter of Runt's gender, the larger she gets the more she ends up looking more male than female in the tail area. It was easier to sex other snakes her size because they looked like females, large and girthy, bigger than the males. She's the same size as Snakey was when I caught him and she's looking how he was. She's only the size of my pinky finger. Snakey courted her once before, when she was only 3 inches.

Mama isn't enjoying having the paper towels as substrate, but to make her feel more pampered, I gave her a heated water dish with warm water and a towel. She really loves laying on blankets and towels, so I figured she might like having the towel in there. She took a dip in her little "hot tub" and rested there for a while before exploring and snooping around her towel.

[ConcinusMan]

Well Chantel (hey, that rhymes) life is going to happen no matter what you do. Just stay in the moment, watch, observe, and learn.

I really do think that babies are coming and if you get to be there when that happens, and you get to experience the entire thing, then you are blessed. Might seem like a burden but nothing can replace the experience. You'll do fine, I'm sure.

[kibakiba]

Yeah, I really would love to see it when it happens. It would definitely be amazing, and the first real birth of any kind that I'd have seen.

I'm sure I will do fine... I mean, I am Mama's "pet"... All I have to do is fetch her fuzzies, worms and fish, clean her water dish (hah, rhyme), and pick up her poop... And of course, give her some love every once in a while. She goes easy on me. :D

[kibakiba]

Mama's rejecting food now. She did the same thing a couple days ago but she ate some worms. I've been feeding her fuzzies, so I figured she might be wanting worms, her favorite treat. She rejected that too. I have some fish thawing to see if she might want that instead. I'm not worried about her at all, she just seemed pretty hungry. Staring at my fingers and all ;)

Poor girl cant stop moving. I held her for a little bit tonight and she was resting on my chest for a while. I got a picture of her sleeping in her towel... I need to resize it before I upload it. I'll do that after my boyfriend goes to bed, though.

[ConcinusMan]

Won't be long now

[kibakiba]

Here's Mama's new bed. As you can see, she seems to enjoy it.
She has to be pampered before giving birth... Because happy healthy hens = healthy eggs.. only.. Happy and healthy snakes = happy healthy babies :D

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/SDC11481.jpg

[guidofatherof5]

She does look content.
I use soft hides once in awhile.
Snakes seem to enjoy them.

[kibakiba]

Mama is finally resting a little bit on her little towel mound :D It's the first time this week that I've even seen her stop moving aside from when she's sleeping at night. She looks so sweet, using her unborn babies as a pillow ;)

[ConcinusMan]

Be careful about using super-absorbent materials in a birthing enclosure. Even dry newspaper or paper towels can cause problems. If the babies come in contact with it before they break free of the membranes, it sucks the moisture out and causes them to get stuck inside.

That's a very cute photo.:)

[kibakiba]

I only have paper towels. We don't have any more carefresh. It's been really dry lately, so I've been keeping the humidity up and of she shows any signs of dropping them within the next few days, I'll probably be up because of the fact id be too nervous to sleep, and I'd want to make sure everything goes smoothly.
Would it be okay to, perhaps, spray down the paper towels before and keep them a little damp? I don't want to have Mama get scale rot, but yeah, I have no other substrate to put in there for her.

[ConcinusMan]

A little damp (not wet) isn't going to hurt anything for the short term especially if you change them often. It's long term dampness with bacteria growth and filth that is the main cause of problems. If you keep paper towels damp under or inside a hide, I can almost guarantee that's where she'll want to drop the babies. You could also use barely damp shredded newspaper or towels in piles in just part of the enclosure. If you're going to be spending a lot of time at home you could just keep an eye on her and when they start coming out, just keep a mist bottle handy.

[kibakiba]

Alright, I'll do that. I have to change some of it today so I'll get it a little damp in her hide area.
She's using my stomach as a pillow... So cute! :D

[kibakiba]

She's been hanging around the damp side and in her towel a lot today. It's the first time I've gotten to see her whole body. Some of her load seems to have gone downward slightly, but not too much. It's really nice to see her resting for a change.

[guidofatherof5]

Keep us posted. Hoping for the best.;)

[ConcinusMan]

The 'load shift' usually happens no more than a couple of days before the babies come. Sometimes just an hour or two before. Northwesterns usually do favor a damp, dimly lit area or hide for the birthing, rather than say, out in the open in the heat and/or bright light.

[kibakiba]

I've been keeping her light off and using the night lamp for her, she stayed in the blanket more when it was on.

[kibakiba]

Mama's load shifted some more, and I haven't slept. I've been leaving her alone, but part of me just wants to lift her up when she comes and presses her nose against the glass if I go near it. Once, when she looked like she had wanted attention I put my hand in there and she slithered on me and rested for a while then struck at my finger and bit me really softly. She didn't puncture my skin, but it surprised me a lot since she was coiled on my hand. I figured she's just a bit pissy.
Another thing I noticed was her pressing her head into the paper towels and literally lifting her whole body in the process. It was almost as if she was hitting her head on the floor thinking "Why, why did I have to get pregnant!!!?" Haha.
For about 10 minutes I could see noticeable lumps in her belly, then the disappeared.
She's getting a little more pampered. I've added a couple more washcloths for her to lay on for now. I figured it would make her crazy cruising a bit more comfortable.

[guidofatherof5]

Keep in mind the point that Richard brought up. Moist areas are need or at least areas they won't get stuck to when they come out. Paper towel may be too absorbent.
I know you are keeping an eye on the situation but you have to sleep sometime. Snakes seem to deliver during the times we're not around(planned by them).

[kibakiba]

I have it damp and higher humidity in my room. I do want to sleep, but I'd have to take my sleeping meds. If I do that, I'll be hour for 10-12 hours. I also have my mom watching her when I'm laying down and she knows to mist if anything is looking too dry. I'm lucky to have her around for when I really do need to sleep. I plan on taking a one hour nap after she goes to Walgreens to pick up some medication for me.
Mama's load isn't that far down, she barely looks like any of the other gravid girls I've seen before they popped. She's just taking her time getting everything ready ;) I'll keep monitoring her though. Technically, at the request of my Therapist, I shouldn't take naps at any point during the day if I haven't slept all night, but I think this is an exception to that little rule. :D

[ConcinusMan]

I used a little box lined with moist paper towels and in nearly every case, if it was available, that's where they chose to have their babies. I could open the top to check their progress. Here's a concinnus girl after her load shifted. She was in labor for two days after the load shift, and was pushing, before the babies came. Sometimes they just start dropping them right away after the load shift. Anyway, if you noticed everything shifting south, technically she is in labor and the babies will come very soon.

http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/2691/gedc1650medium.jpg

[kibakiba]

Yes, I know. From about 12 PM yesterday to 12 PM today, it's gone down one inch. I'll keep an eye on her every once in a while. I don't want to bother her too much, other than an occasional mist. My room has randomly been dry lately, so I mist 2 times an hour or more if I need it. I hate having constant nosebleeds and I doubt Mama likes it much either.

[kibakiba]

I'm either hallucinating right now or I was hallucinating when I said she shifted. I've been up 2 days straight so who knows at this point.
The little "bulge" she had near her tail is gone. If I had a picture of what she looked like, I'd show you. But, now, she just looks like shes got a very large belly. I'm going to get a couple hours of sleep and have my mom check on her every once in a while.
Here's what she looks like right now.
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/SDC11500.jpg

Also, the tank looks really wet, but I changed it right after misting her. She really seems to enjoy it. She sprawls out and relaxes when I spray near her.
She's also been laying in her water dish or randomly slithering on it and dipping just her tail in it... It's very strange.

[gregmonsta]

Certainly showing restlessness .... :)

[kibakiba]

Yeah... She's usually a blob laying there in the tank curled up on top of Snakey... But now she's wanting out every second of the day and almost seems like she took some caffeine pills! She's also a bit pissy when I try to change her towels or water. has nipped me a few times, flattened her head and struck at me and hissed, a lot.

[guidofatherof5]

Sounds like she's giving you the business.:D

[ConcinusMan]

The tank looks pretty good for a birth place. Just keep her water very shallow and put some bebbles or rocks in it in case she decides to drop babies in the water.

[kibakiba]

Thanks Richard. I cleaned it about 2 hours ago, so it looks a little different. I have 3 very slightly damp towels in there for her. I don't have any pebbles or rocks that I couple put in... I do have these little glass pebble looking things that I use for holding my Aroma buds. I could pour some out and put them in the water dish. Would that work?
My mom said she was watching Mama for a while while I was sleeping and that Mama was rippling her belly a lot, but when I got up she wasn't rippling, she was slithering. My mom doesn't know much about snakes, so she might have mistaken her body's natural movement as something else.
Anyways, I'm going to take a nap and hopefully she wont even dare start squeezing any of them out ;)

[ConcinusMan]

"rippling"

Sounds like she is in labor. It could go on like that for days but they're definitely coming if you're seeing that. It usually goes with the shift downward.

[kibakiba]

Well, I've been waking up every other hour and watching her for a little bit and have seen no rippling whatsoever. My mom has bad eyes, so it's kind of hard to trust anything she says she saw. It could have happened though. I'm seeing my therapist tomorrow, I'm really hoping Mama wont drop them then. With my luck, things always happen like that.

And, you never answered my question :p
Would the glass pebble things work in place of real pebbles and rocks?

[ConcinusMan]

Make sure the water is only about half a centimeter deep and as long as they are clean, then yes, anything placed in the water that would allow babies to climb out so they don't drown, will do.

[kibakiba]

Alright, I'll clean them and put some in there.
Thanks :)

[Mommy2many]

I know the one thing I noticed about Stewie the day she had her young, was that she was cruising the tank like a spaz! Back and forth and all over th eplace. She had her babies about 8 hours later.

[kibakiba]

Mama has been doing that for about 3 weeks now. She seems to be resting more today, every time I've checked on her she was sleeping under her lamp. I held her for a little bit today and let her lay on my favourite blanket and softly rubbed her belly. She's so pampered. :D

[kibakiba]

Would it be safe for me to try to feed Mama while she's so close to giving birth? When I was giving little worm treats to the babies and Snakey she seemed pretty interested in them but I wasn't sure if I should give some to her or not. Of course, if I can and she doesn't want them, it's just more treats for the babies. ;)

[ConcinusMan]

If she wants to eat, let her eat. Just don't give her a lot.

[kibakiba]

I wouldn't give her a lot, I don't want to stuff her. I was just planning on a couple pieces of worm or fish. :)

[kibakiba]

She rejected the food despite showing a lot of interest in it. She attacked a worm that I put in her face, but spit it out. I also put Snakey in there for a little bit, she seemed to enjoy his company. They cuddled up to each other for a little bit.

[kibakiba]

Mama's backside is looking a little bit fatter now and she's a bit huffy with her her breathing. She's been sitting in her little pink "throne" for 3 days straight now. It's so cute.

[kibakiba]

Mama ate today, I decided to give the babies a little treat and since Mama hasn't eaten in 2 weeks I decided to see if she'd eat at least one Squirt sized worm piece, she didn't disappoint. I gave her a couple pieces to munch on. It was very surprising to see her even interested in food.

[guidofatherof5]

That's a good thing Chantel. Glad she's eating again.;)

[kibakiba]

Yeah, she was pretty hungry but she just wanted a couple really small worm pieces and an extra small pinky butt. Haha. I don't blame her though, she doesn't look like she has any room in there for food.

[guidofatherof5]

Pinky butt. So you butcher your pinkies into cuts of meat.
That's a good mom.:D

[kibakiba]

Haha, I just happened to cut it that way and grab the pinky butt instead of, say the head or anything else. I have to cut them into big enough chunks that Snap and Ember would want them, and small enough that Thumbelina and Squirt can down them too... Mama was lucky to get the only larger piece that was in the whole mix of fish and worm ;)

[mustang]

i just rip em while theyre frozen....your snakes view you like the butcher at super markets
"ham or shoulders?....a head?"

[kibakiba]

Rip them? That sounds gross. I cut them up frozen and then offer it. Picky guys like Squirt will only eat thighs, tails or noses.

[mustang]

Rip them? That sounds gross. I cut them up frozen and then offer it. Picky guys like Squirt will only eat thighs, tails or noses.
i trained checker to bite anything dangling (and twitching) above.....idiots in high school believe iv trained an attack snake :rolleyes:

[kibakiba]

Then they should see Snap, she'll rip fingers off if you put them near her.

[mustang]

Then they should see Snap, she'll rip fingers off if you put them near her.
i used a sock to cover my hand when i first got checker when i fed him....he only hit the sock once...and it was my fault (he was in blue phase) and he didnt even close his mouth before retracting:D! Hes always kinda slowly put his nose to it the wil grab it (unless it running like a fish or worm then all hell breaks loose:rolleyes:)

[kibakiba]

Mama rejected food yesterday and is extremely restless again... Keeps going in and out of her water dish and she's clinging her tail to her towels and dragging them around. It looks kind of funny when she does that.

She also left me a nice huge log to clean up. I love her so much.

[ConcinusMan]

You should read this Chantel: JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie (http://www.jstor.org/pss/27669711)

I know it's old and they call T. ordinoides "puget sound garters" but it's still valuable research.

It might help to explain why you can't always depend on the date of conception to determine a due date with this species. Basically it's because T. ordinoides tend be receptive and mate long before the eggs are mature enough to be fertilized.

Concinnus tend to not be receptive, at least from what I've seen, until they are ready ovulate so we just count the days from the date of mating and it's easy to figure out when the babies will be born. (the eggs are mature enough to be fertilized when mating occurs) but not so with T. ordinoides. Silly female northwesterns will accept males sometimes in the fall and again in late winter or early spring, but don't actually ovulate until around June in the wild. That's when the egg is ready and gets fertilized. Can be weeks or months after mating before the babies start growing.

I brought my red stripe girl out of brumation and she's eating enough food every day for at least 3 snakes her size. Even though she hasn't mated, I suspect she's eating so much because she is in the process of creating eggs and needs the extra nutrients for the yolks. Even though she didn't mate last fall or so far this year, it's possible that she had enough sperm stored from a spring 2010 mating to produce a few fertile eggs. We'll see.

[kibakiba]

Yeah I know I can't rely on anything with my ordinoides. :p It's hard to relay on Mama when she shows signs of being about to give birth and screws up my sleep schedule and right once I got it back to normal, she goes and does it again. I think she does it intentionally, cause she likes being treated like a queen. She's just a huge, spoiled little girl... Cant blame me for spoiling her, though... She's just too precious :D

[kibakiba]

Mama's giving birth right now... So far there's 3 very cute and tiny babies and a slug. There's one that has a really cool pattern, all the others are black and white and hes gray with a bunch of black spots.
5 babies now.

[guidofatherof5]

Great news, congrats.:)

[kibakiba]

Yeah... They're super cute. I'm melting from the cuteness.

[ConcinusMan]

Cool. Good news Chantel. It's important to keep them damp for a while after they are born. Make sure if they are on substrate to keep it damp or even a bit leaning toward wet, for a day or two or until you're sure all of their first sheds are complete. Make sure they stay well hydrated. Too dry in the beginning can dehydrate them super fast.

Congrats on a successful captive bred and born litter.:D

Yes, those ordinoides babies are super cute. They stay that way, and very "babyish" a long time too. Many months.

[kibakiba]

Thanks. I've been misting them every once in a while, and keeping Mama slightly damp. I've moved the ones I found... Mama crushed one before I found it. I still have 5 babies though.
One of them was very feisty, when I went to move him he nipped me and wouldn't let go. I like him... He's got a nice pattern, too. I might just keep him ;)

[ConcinusMan]

She just might be done by now I would think. I wouldn't put too much blame on moma for the dead one. I'm just saying that if it's still in the membrane and dead, it was probably too weak to get out in time anyway. If it is out of the membrane and dead, moma probably didn't kill it. It was probably doomed anyway if it couldn't get out of her way.

1 slug, 1 dead, 5 live and healthy. I'd say that's a success and a very typical average litter.

[kibakiba]

It was out of the membrane, but she was pretty panicky and I don't blame her for it. I say she did great. She looks tiny compared to how she did yesterday, haha. I'm happy with my 5 pretty babies.
The one with a nice pattern is also the runt of the bunch... I'll get pictures tomorrow, I'm tired after being so excited about the babies. ;)

[ConcinusMan]

They'll change quite a bit in the coming weeks. Color will change and patterns can get masked or fade. That's cool you got one that's a bit different though.

[kibakiba]

Yeah, I know. When I got Squirt he had a couple gray stripes, which I've never seen. But, he's 100% black now. I hope my little runt keeps his cool pattern. All of them have a little bit of spotting, like Mama. I cant wait to see what they look like.

[ConcinusMan]

Well, sometimes they don't change much but they always change at least a little after a few sheds.

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/general-talk/8118-improves-age-color-up-photos-2.html#post152836

[kibakiba]

Yes, I've seen it. I had to talk my mom into letting me keep them for a while just to see what they might start looking like.... Of course, she doesn't know just how long I'll keep them! :D

[indigoman]

Very happy for you Chantel,

[Mommy2many]

Congratulations!:D

[ScimitarX]

Congrats!! :D

Way to go Mama

[gregmonsta]

Congrats on the squiggles :D

[ConcinusMan]

Yes, I've seen it. I had to talk my mom into letting me keep them for a while just to see what they might start looking like.... Of course, she doesn't know just how long I'll keep them! :D

Just tell her the truth. The truth is that they were born at an unnatural time of the year since they are in captivity. It's way to early in the year for babies to be left on their own in the wild. In our region they are normally born in mid to late summer. Females don't even begin gestation until June! In order to have a decent shot at survival out there they really need to get a head start and wait until the weather warms up. If it were me, that would mean I would keep them 'till at least late May before releasing them and feed them well in the mean time.

[mustang]

YAY congrats!

[kibakiba]

I have told her, she knows I'll be keeping them at least until it's warm and enough that I can see the colouring and patterns. I do want to keep the little runt, he's so feisty! I also would rather adopt them out to people instead of leaving them in the wild... It's hard for me to imagine them being all on their own.

[guidofatherof5]

You can put me on the list of prospective adopters.
Let me know if you need any references.:D

[kibakiba]

Well, when they're ready, I'll be sure to let you know. I can save the little feisty one for you. :p