Canned Cat Food for a Garter..?

[Ryachanira]

As I was sitting here mulling over Silv's eating problems, I had a thought. The one thing I have not tried with him is fish fillet, since I don't want to buy a lot unless I have a reasonable hope that he will eat it. I am like 99% sure he wouldn't, but I thought I could potentially give him a bit of my kitties' salmon food a try...? My cats eat high end, all natural cat food - no commercial pasty stuff. They are totally spoiled rotten, haha. It is nice chunks of meat in a light broth with vitamins/minerals added in, nothing else. Here is a link to the particular salmon variety I am thinking of:

Petropics - Tiki Cat, Tiki Dog, Tiki Bird, Tiki FurBalls - For the Pets We Love (http://www.petropics.com/Hanalei.htm)

I was wondering if it would be safe to try giving Silv a few of the smaller pieces when I feed them tonight? I also have tuna and chicken varieties, but I know salmon has been specifically mentioned for garters so I thought it would be the best bet. I searched online a bit and saw some references to using cat food, but thought I would check with you all first! :)

[ConcinusMan]

This has been discussed many times before. The answer is a big fat "NO". Don't feed that to your garters. It's not good for them. I also question whether or not it's even good for cats.

[Ryachanira]

Well I am of course willing to listen to you all on whether it is good for the snake. I can assure you that it is some of the best the cats are going to get, aside from feeding them totally raw which I am not willing to do because.. ew. Haha. But it is very high quality, human grade and all natural cat food, so the kitties are going to be just fine on it. ;)

The other reason I had considered it may be safe is that, aside from the fish itself, most of the vitamins and minerals supplemented seem to be the same as what is in Carnivore Care (http://www.oxbowanimalhealth.com/vets/products/carnivore_care), which is what I am currently tube feeding Silv per my vet's recommendation. The biggest difference perhaps is the addition of Taurine to the cat food - essential to cats and not to snakes, however I did not think it would probably hurt the snake.

I just thought it might be another option to see if I could get him to eat... anything. :)

[Stefan-A]

Should be significantly less risky than canned fish intended for human consumption, but I'm not convinced that it's the best thing you could feed your snake, if there's anything unprocessed available at all. Lacking alternatives, I'd only use it until there were alternatives.

But if nothing genuinely better is available, I guess it's what you'll have to use. Regarding buying large quantities of fish, I don't suppose you or anyone else in your household would eat it?

Regarding taurine, I have no idea what quantities would be toxic for snakes. It's probably safe, but it's just a semi-educated guess at 3 AM.

[guidofatherof5]

As a rule I would say no to any cat or dog food.
With that being said Jenny is in a unique situation with Silv. This injured snake hasn't eaten on its own in a long time. Force feeding has been done.
In this case I think if Silv would take a small piece just to get the self eating process going it could be acceptable. Only until a switch could be made to a better food source.
Silv is alive because of Jenny's kind and caring heart.
Best of luck. Keep us posted.

[ConcinusMan]

Good point Steve. If this could get Silv eating on her own, a little cat food shouldn't hurt. Like fish containing thiaminase, a little once in a while usually doesn't cause any obvious problems.

[Ryachanira]

Well I just now tried it after reading the last couple of replies. I held a really small piece out to him with the tongs. He did not eat it. But he did seem interested in it - moved up towards it with lots of tongue flicking, and even got it in his mouth at one point! I would definitely not say he struck at it, it was more like he opened his mouth like he always does, and then slowly moved up towards it until it was in his mouth. It was there for, oh.. 1 second? Then he promptly left and proceeded to ignore it and all of my attempts to re-interest him. However this is the most interest I have seen paid to any feeding attempt to date so... maybe that is a good sign? I am of course ever the optimist. :)

I had not been planning on using it as a primary food source, just a gateway food. Plus I figured if I could get him to eat this, then the lovely juices left in the can after I scoop out the meat into the kitty bowls could be very useful for scenting those pinkies in my freezer....

I will have to give it another go at a later date. Perhaps I will cave in and go get him some fish from the grocery store tomorrow, since he did at least show some interest, more than I can say for any wiggly worm, flopping fish or cut up pinky.

Thanks for the advice!

[Jeff B]

I would try a freshly killed rosie (yes you will have to kill it, pinch its head quickly between your fingers, it's important that it is freshly killed so that it smells right) placed on a small plastic bowl overnight undisturbed untill mid-morning you could check then, in my experience that would be your best bet to start with and worth a try. Best of luck

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I would try a freshly killed rosie (yes you will have to kill it, pinch its head quickly between your fingers, it's important that it is freshly killed so that it smells right) placed on a small plastic bowl overnight undisturbed untill mid-morning you could check then, in my experience that would be your best bet to start with and worth a try. Best of luck


I do that all the time! It works really, really well for a finicky snake. Especially the babies that you start to worry that they may starve.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Also... to the cat food, I say no... it's a bad idea. If it's in a can, it's processed and it's not good for a snake to eat.

BUT. and this is the but.... if it gets to the point where he seems like he may die of starvation, and that's the last resort.... only then would I do it. The problem is that he may get hooked on the stuff and refuse to eat real food.

Good luck.... seriously!

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Also i wanted to commend you on choosing to educate yourself about what you feed your pet. I read the ingredients... not a bad food at all! Obviously the best diet possible is the raw fed... but not everyone is willing to go that far. i work in the pet supply industry and I try to educate my customers on a daily basis why friskies, 9 lives, meow mix, fancy feast... etc etc is just no darned good! And you wouldn't believe how many herpers, who worry about EVERY wee detail of their herps care and feeding, do not do the same for their dogs and cats and feed them grocery brand food. For all those that are reading, I encourage you to read the ingredients in your pet's food. Read the labels... is it made by purina? it's no good. Do you see by-product, corn, glutens, flour, or other fillers? It's no good. What goes into our pets is so important to their health... so many people feed their animals low grade foods, and then spend tons of money on vet visits, creams and pills because their pet has dry, flaking, itching skin, excess shedding, they smell, they get ear infections, they develope sudden allergies after years of eating the same stuff, they become diabetic....the list goes on! Customers come to me looking for a quick fix, and I always ask what they are feeding first. And then I tell them if you switch food, you can kill all these problems at their roots. Applying topical treatments does not fix the source of the problem. Dogs do not naturally smell. A healthy dog eating a good diet, does not have an odor. Dogs stink if they are eating low grade processed foods because all that junk is being excreted through their skin, and it is affecting their metabolism negatively. Sorry for the ramble, but this is something I feel really strongly about!

[zooplan]

Hey Shanon, wow, do you want to win a debating contest with this?
Please use some more paragraphs (for me), so it´ll be easier to follow;)

It´s my opinion that you are too shy!
You shall have more trust in the guts of snakes.
There´re lots of fed the can digest for their benefit.
I remember of a photo (from Don?) of a Garter Snake feding on a half rotten wing at a roadside.
Cat food is better than dog food.

But I agree: This should be no principal food!

[gregmonsta]

Here's a link that was posted before - Merck Veterinary Manual (http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/171406.htm)

At any rate you won't be able to rely on if the cat-food manufacturer will check the suitability of new additives for reptiles either.

[Ryachanira]

I will add freshly killed fish to the list of ideas - so far we have only tried live fish with him.

Thanks for the comments about the cat & dog food - I couldn't agree more with you, people have no idea what they are feeding their pets! I got into a huge arguement about it with my sister and brother in law over Christmas, heh. The breeder we got our kitties from fed them Iams, but as soon as we got them they were on Innova from Natura Pet, another really great company. When my baby boy Leo started dropping weight for no reason at the age of 2, we switched him to Natura's California Natural and now they are on California Natural Grain free and eating the Tiki Cat canned every day, and he is picking up weight again (yay)! But I really wish people would read about that commercial pet food. =\

Also that link to the Merck vet manual looks really interesting, I will have to read it over later today when I run out of things to do in the lab. :)

[ssssnakeluvr]

have you tried worms?? I have had a few nonfeeders take off when fed worms.

[Ryachanira]

I have tried worms (both live and cut up, and chopped up with pinkie parts), pinkies (both whole and cut up) and fish (in water dish and flopping in a small bit of water). I've tried leaving him in the feeding box overnight, tried tongs, different times of feeding. So far no luck, but I haven't given up on him eating on his own quite yet! :)

[guidofatherof5]

Have you tried taking a larger guppy and starting it down his throat? Or a piece of fish or worm on a toothpick. With that mouth already agape it should be easier.
Just an idea.
Keep us posted.

[Ryachanira]

I have tried to get a worm chunk in his mouth before, but he really seems to hate it. Of course, he might be scarred by the tube feeding on that front, usually when I am sticking something down his throat it is the cat catheter and its going all the way down. He usually pulls his head away really fast if I try to put food in his mouth.

Would I be able to like.. hold his head (like I do when I tube feed him) and get it to open his mouth a bit more somehow and shove the worm in a bit further and see if he will swallow? I have never tried that, only tried kind of placing food in his mouth, hoping he would take it from there and he never does. I don't want to traumatize (or worse, hurt) him.

[guidofatherof5]

With all he's been through I wouldn't worry about it. He's had plenty of healing time so I don't think you are going to run the risk of re-injuring him.
I like to hold the head and put the rest of the body on a towel. That keeps them from flailing around.;)

[ConcinusMan]

It's always tough when it comes down to this. It's hard on the snakes and it's hard on us. I can't count the number of times I had to restrain a snake for whatever reason, in spite of it's violent protests. The goal is to get the job done without injuring the snake. Set aside the trauma for now (Yours and the snakes) if something needs to be done. Steve's advice is sound. If you must restrain a snake, especially by the head area, it's best to keep the rest of the snake from twisting, flailing, etc. to reduce stress on the spine. Sometimes what must be done must be done. Sometimes they aren't going to like it, and you're not going to like it. What's left is getting it done with minimal risk of injury.

I cringe and grit my teeth anytime I have to forcefully restrain a snake. I don't like doing it, and I'm sure they don't like it. But when it's for the better (treating an injury and/or possibly saving their life) it's worth the effort and worth doing it right.

I can tell you I've done it. Force feeding, medicating injuries in awkward places, etc. Sometimes, just sometimes, it results in saving a snakes life. That makes it all worth while. Sometimes, in spite of the effort, the results aren't good. Sometimes you just have to try where doing nothing looks like it will end badly.

[Ryachanira]

Tried something new today with Silv. I went to the pet store and got a few medium sized feeder guppies. I killed one (squishing its head in between my fingers), picked up Silv, wrapped him around my fingers to hold onto him and held his head. Then, starting with the tail end, I shoved the fish in his mouth... I started by just slipping the tail into his mouth to get it open a bit and I kind of crammed the fish back into his throat.

He was less than pleased. He didn't musk or bite or honestly even wiggle that much, but he kept trying to pull his head away. I did this oh, 5 or 6 times? We were both covered in fish scales as the little guppy started falling apart. At one point I had pretty much the whole fish back there, with the head of the fish almost all the way inside his mouth, hoping that he would eventually swallow it. No such luck - every time he spit the darn thing back out. Ugh.

I am starting to wonder what the extent of his injuries was. Perhaps somehow the swallowing reflex arc was damaged..? I mean you would think he might eventually swallow the fish when it was so far in his throat.. but no.

Anyway, the other fish are happily swimming around for now until I decide what to do with them. I am thinking I may try killing and just leaving them on a lid in the main cage. Of course, I have about zero hope he will eat them, but may as well give it a go.

I have washed my hands like 5 times now and my fingers still smell like fish. Oh the things I have done for this silly little snake.. :)

[guidofatherof5]

If I may suggest head first would be the more natural way fish would be swallowed. Push it down with the catheter you've used before. Maybe just past the jaws.
I must thank you for your efforts on Silv's behalf.
You have a couple free radixes coming if you ever get up to the Ranch or maybe when the Spring weather arrives I ship you a pair if you would like them.;)

[Stefan-A]

And don't try to push anything down the glottis.

[Ryachanira]

I did try head first, but it was very difficult to get him to open his mouth that way - this way I was able to wiggly the tail in the side of his mouth and get him to open it. I will have to try head first tonight when Dan gets home - with two people I can most likely get it in there, it was just difficult with one. Dan usually holds Silv and I operate the tube/syringe in when we tube feed him. I will let you know how that goes tonight!

While I would love to take you up on your offer I do not think I am going to be able to convince Dan on more snakes. I have asked him several times if we could get some more and he always says no. He is always the more practical one about time/space/money when it comes to more pets, while I pretty much always want to take all of the animals home with me. I was surprised he was okay with this one - but it is hard to turn down a sick animal with nobody else to care for it! But thank you so much for the offer, that is really kind of you! I will let you know if I can convince him to change his mind.. ;)

[guidofatherof5]

The offer is non-expiring. Just let me know when.
Come on Dan! please.:D

[charles parenteau]

I also question whether or not it's even good for cats.

hahaha indeed good question!!

[ConcinusMan]

I mean, some of that stuff seems worse than feeding them mercury tainted fish.:rolleyes:

Meet Garfield, the techno dancing cat.:p

[Ryachanira]

Well, I did it - I shoved two fish down Silv's throat. With Dan holding him I was able to wiggle the fish in head first, and used the cat catheter to help push it down. He still would not swallow though. At one point I had the fish pretty much all the way down there (I couldn't even see it anymore), but as soon as I removed the catheter, he threw it back up. And it was like he was working against me the whole time - I would push it a bit down, he would throw it a bit back up. Heh. Finally I gave up on him swallowing it himself and just pushed the catheter all the way in (like I do for tube feeding) and the fish stayed down. We got two fish down this way.

While I am happy to get some real food in him for a change, I feel rather.. lukewarm about this minor victory. If he will not eat on his own, is this really any better than the tube feeding? This seemed to stress him out way more than the tube normally does, although that might just be because he is used to the tube now and not used to this. I was hoping to get him to at least do a bit of the swallowing on his own, but he did nothing other than try desperately to get the fish back out. I am almost a little worried that now the smell of fish will just freak him out, hurting more than helping? Oh well. Time will tell.

If I have to choose in the end between forcing fish down his throat the rest of his life or using the tube and carnivore care, is the fish a better choice since it is a more natural food, or is the mix a better choice (possibly more complete...?)? Hopefully it will not come to that. I am still hoping he will eat on his own someday. Every time I see videos of snakes eating I am a little jealous - it is so cool to watch, I would really like to see Silv eat like that!

Oh and Steve - Dan said he'd think about it. :)

[Ryachanira]

As a quick update... we haven't tube-fed Silv since those fish a week ago. We have tried fish and worms, with tongs and leaving him in the feeding cage with the food. No such luck - he still will not eat. I am thinking I may force feed him again tonight.. still not sure whether I will go with the tube feeding or with pushing the fish down again. The longer he goes without growing the more I worry about him. Can a snake live a full life-span if he is only ever force-fed? I would guess this obviously depends on what the underlying problem is (brain damage vs. simple refusal to eat). Still not giving up hope on him yet! I'll try to continue to keep you all updated on how things go with him. :)

[guidofatherof5]

It's hard to say about the full life question. So many factors involved like you said.
Please. Keep us informed. I'm pullin' for Silv.;)

[Mommy2many]

me too!

[sawmane 1]

never heard of cat food but of corse i give canned dog food to my eatern baox turtle smetimes.

[Ryachanira]

Another (small) update... decided to give Silv one more chance eating on his own before forcing again. I picked up a small Ziploc screw-top container to feed him in from now on (I am pretty sure I read about that somewhere here) and he is in there with three flopping guppies. Do I need to poke holes in it...? It seems that I remember a LOT of snakes at the herp show I went to in rubbermaid type containers with lids and no holes. I would really hate to suffocate him after working so hard to keep him alive.. heh. Right now I just have the lid sightly loose (but not so much that he could get out).

Also, I purchased a small (and rather crappy, haha) scale to weigh him. He is 12 grams - which is exactly what he weighed when I took him to the vet on November 30th, which is when we started force feeding. So... 2.5 months of force feeding and he has not grown at all. Kind of depressing. :(

[guidofatherof5]

Holes wouldn't hurt. Most of the time they aren't in the container long enough for it to matter. If the holes may you feel better then do it.
Don't focus on the weight as Silv is in a whole different situation than most snakes.
The good thing is, Silv is still with you and hasn't lost any weight.
Nice job. Remember, the snake is always half full.:D

[mustang]

NONONONONONONONONO!!!!!!!! well to the cat/dog food.....dont do it (FYI dont feed it to iguanas either, it DOES have a negitive impact on their lifespan!) make sure to have a varied diet of safe fish, pinkys, and worms!

[kibakiba]

Robert, I think everyone has said something like that by now... :p

[ConcinusMan]

I saw an ad the other day for a checkered garter on kingsnake dot com and it said the snake was eating well on feeder goldfish, canned tuna, and worms.

I was like...You're feeding it what?:eek:

They also seemed to make a it a point to say the tuna was in spring water. That doesn't change the fact that there is added salt.

Oh, off topic, but I also saw an ad for "2-3 foot garters" which didn't look like they were any bigger than 18 inches, and they were wild-caught easterns, looking a bit rough around the edges and rather dull looking too. The price? Only $50 plus shipping.

I'll jump on that.:rolleyes:

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I saw an ad the other day for a checkered garter on kingsnake dot com and it said the snake was eating well on feeder goldfish, canned tuna, and worms.

I was like...You're feeding it what?:eek:

They also seemed to make a it a point to say the tuna was in spring water. That doesn't change the fact that there is added salt.

Oh, off topic, but I also saw an ad for "2-3 foot garters" which didn't look like they were any bigger than 18 inches, and they were wild-caught easterns, looking a bit rough around the edges and rather dull looking too. The price? Only $50 plus shipping.

I'll jump on that.:rolleyes:
the sad part is that they will not sell, and will end up being wholesaled off as cobra food. :(