Bite Reactions

[guidofatherof5]

How about a thread for just as the title suggest. A place to put photos and reactions to garter snake bites.
This is from one of my big girl radixes. She over shot the food and grabbed me. She chewed for a few seconds, then realized it wasn't food and released.
Since then my finger has been tingling and feels warm. Very strange reaction as I have been bit hundreds of time, many in that exact spot.
Still 20 minutes after the bite and the same reaction persists.
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/bite13.jpg

[gregmonsta]

Not mine but - :rolleyes: Here's a couple of good 'uns - http://www.thamnophis.com/archive/articles/artic25.htm summary in English at the bottom .... the pics alone are eye-opening :eek:

[ConcinusMan]

Tingling and warm.. sometimes followed by intense itching later on. I usually have that kind of reaction to some wild CA garters even if it's defensive bites. Only get that from concinnus' when they think I'm food and they chew and drool in the wound a lot.

[kibakiba]

That's exactly what happens to me, but since I seem to be more sensitive to it, about 5 minutes after the bite I get really bad pain in the area and my whole hand turns red-ish purple and swells really big. I got bit by Snakey for the first time a month after I got him. He wouldn't let go and I had to run cold water over him for a while to get him to let go. I didn't have a food smell or any food around him, but he was really calm so I'm assuming he was just so hungry that he decided to munch on my palm. Still got a scar from that. Even bites from the babies get pretty bad, but its a lot less pain and swelling.

[zooplan]

Not mine but - :rolleyes: Here's a couple of good 'uns - http://www.thamnophis.com/archive/articles/artic25.htm summary in English at the bottom .... the pics alone are eye-opening :eek:

Heidi is very careful with her Garters now.
There was a picture of her back, that was covered with red blotches, too.
She´s still keeping and loving Garter Snakes.

[Stefan-A]

Not mine but - :rolleyes: Here's a couple of good 'uns - http://www.thamnophis.com/archive/articles/artic25.htm summary in English at the bottom .... the pics alone are eye-opening :eek:
Remember that talk we had the other day regarding the venom composition? ;)

[ConcinusMan]

And this one... Duvernoy's Glands and "Warm" Herping (http://www.anapsid.org/duvernoygland.html)

[gregmonsta]

Remember that talk we had the other day regarding the venom composition? ;)

Aye ;) ... necrosis around the bite site, haemotoxic evidence in the swelling/marks that Heidi experienced. The fact that she felt itching as far as and in her armpit shows the lymphnodes could also have been suffering a part of the toxic experience ... hints of neurotoxin? :rolleyes:

[ConcinusMan]

Or else the symptom could have been due to the reaction (or overreaction) of her immune system, rather than the toxcicity of the "venom" itself.

Sort of like bee stings can be deadly to certain people but it's not because the venom is that toxic. It's the reaction of their own bodies that pose the danger, not the venom itself. I must also wonder if some of the reactions we see are due to bacteria that enter the wound.

[gregmonsta]

Studies show myonecrosis of target tissue and haemotoxic compounds are proven in T.elegans :rolleyes: as well as hints of several very interesting compounds. The effects described mirror envenomations by sirtalis and others from various sources that cited envenomation as being the cause rather than an allergic reaction.
Never was there signs of anaphylapsis in these cases. (I have yet to read the material on the fatality)
Considering the compounds are present that do the damage reported a bacterial infection seems a lot less likely.

[count dewclaw]

Wouldn't the hives be a good indication of an allergic reaction? Also, the speed in which the body was covered in hives and blotches makes me wonder about allergies. Not all allergic reactions are as severe as an anaphylaxis type reaction. Now, that's not to say that envenomation didn't occur. It may be that both reactions are occuring together.

Those are my semi-educated thoughts having dealt with quite a few allergies in my family....:D

[gregmonsta]

Wouldn't the hives be a good indication of an allergic reaction?


Just as much as they can be symptomatic of systemic spread of haemotoxin ;) but like you said it could be an indication of both.
Considering that some of the coumpounds are also found in crotalid venom ... :rolleyes: I still vote envenomation.

The other thing to consider is what is measured as what - for example - most cat allergies are caused by the saliva deposited on the hair from grooming, you may say that the transfer of this to the point of contact and reaction may be a similar concept. (allergy being a form of poisoning)

But when you have a garter snake, with confirmed venom gland, interesting cocktail of compounds, added to grooves on the rear maxillary teeth designed to ensure prey restriction and facilitation of secretion transferrance - it is again biased towards envenomation.

Remember, some earlier accounts showed people who had reported envenomation reported having received numerous bites prior to this with no ill effects. The degree/severety of the bite seems to be a key factor in all of this :rolleyes:

[ConcinusMan]

Or else the symptom could have been due to the reaction (or overreaction) of her immune system, rather than the toxcicity of the "venom" itself.

Sort of like bee stings can be deadly to certain people but it's not because the venom is that toxic...

Prime example happened recently I just learned. Apparently, the more times you're bitten by a viper, the more serious each successive bite can be. Instead of becoming immune to harm from the bite, the built-up immunity is what makes it more dangerous if you're bitten again. Man Dead From Snake Bite Had Allergic Reaction
(http://www.newschannel9.com/articles/westbrook-998169-copperhead-snake.html)