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PINJOHN
01-30-2011, 11:34 AM
I have once again just read [about the twelfth time] the article about eastern's sirtalis sirtalis in the may 2010 issue of reptiles which was so very kindly sent to me by Rhea
I know that Le Ann is an eastern enthusiast and wondered if any other members were keen on these snakes, i always knew that the eastern was variable, but was surprised to discover just how variable they actually are, this article has made me determined to own some more of these lovely garters.
eastern's do come in to Britain wild caught on occasion but in the standard brownish colour i will be watching the reptile dealers closely this year to hopefully add some to my other garter friends.
any experiences or information on eastern's you may wish to pass on would be appreciated ps i do have some Florida's

ConcinusMan
01-30-2011, 12:33 PM
Well of course, a lot of members have them and there are a lot of morphs as well as lots of normal variation. The one that freaks me out is the snows. They are a combination of melanistic and amelanistic. Seems contradictory.

zooplan
01-30-2011, 03:06 PM
They are a combination of melanistic and amelanistic. We use to call those "cappuccino" here, they develope a colour of coffee with lots of milk;).
Snow is defined as a combination of amelanistic and anerythristic.

PINJOHN
01-30-2011, 03:15 PM
are there any photos of the snows you mentioned any where on the net ?

mustang
01-30-2011, 03:19 PM
We use to call those "cappuccino" here, they develope a colour of coffee with lots of milk;).
Snow is defined as a combination of amelanistic and anerythristic.
or a young teenagers coffee (1/2 creamer and 1/2 coffee:rolleyes:) of course i by my own force aquired the taste of double shot of espressos as sweet not strong:D

zooplan
01-30-2011, 03:34 PM
are there any photos of the snows you mentioned any where on the net ?

Scott Felzer's Garter Snakes, specializing in aberrant garters (http://albinogartersnake.com/pricing.htm)

ConcinusMan
01-30-2011, 05:41 PM
But anyway, I wouldn't call amelanistic X melanistic a snow either but that's what they're calling them. Also, Scott isn't exactly the authoritive expert even though people seem to think he is. He often calls snakes something they are not. Time and time again I've been seeing people call melanistic snakes "anery" just because they look like anery radixes do. They seem to think that in order to be melanistic, the snake has to be black and patternless and that's just not true. Melanistic northwesters are often dark charcoal gray and sometimes have a faint dorsal stripe. And quite frankly, I fail to see how an "anery" radix can be anery when it wasn't ever normally red in the first place.

A lot of mislabeling going on and misuse of the terms.

guidofatherof5
01-30-2011, 06:49 PM
Wow. Richard you have no tact.
I didn't mean it as a compliment.

ConcinusMan
01-30-2011, 07:11 PM
:confused:

aSnakeLovinBabe
01-30-2011, 09:31 PM
I call it a DIRTY SNOW! :cool:

ssssnakeluvr
01-30-2011, 09:52 PM
here's my snow

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g302/ssssnakeluvr/DSCF1069.jpg

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g302/ssssnakeluvr/DSCF1063.jpg

zooplan
01-31-2011, 12:17 AM
I call it a DIRTY SNOW!

I don´t want visit your area in winter anymore,
or is there a hidden meaning again?;)?

@Don
That´s a nice cappuccino!
May I have it with two piece of sugar?
I accept it without sugar too anyway!:D!


... I fail to see how an "anery" radix can be anery when it wasn't ever normally red in the first place.

A lot of mislabeling going on and misuse of the terms.

Mislabeling is based on the labeling system!:o

It´s easy to see how lacking of one pigment is changing colours, when you´ve learned that almost all colours on a snake are mixtures of black(blue), red and yellow pigments.

Confusion will grow, when you develope, that hyper erythristic is less than erythristic and albino has close to no meaning for reptiles ( or can mean reduction or lacking of one pigment ).:confused:
The only morphs you could be sure that they´re labeled correctly, are those with unique names from their discoverer like Flame or Silver.:cool:
It´s a dilemma.
It´s a great d i l :eek: m m a

stonyloam
01-31-2011, 08:51 AM
This thread has a bunch of good eastern photos. http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/general-talk/2667-easterns-i-have-met.html

great snakes!:D

PINJOHN
01-31-2011, 12:17 PM
This thread has a bunch of good eastern photos. http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/general-talk/2667-easterns-i-have-met.html

great snakes!:D

thank you so much for that link terry, it is so interesting, you can bet it is a thread i will visit again and again ;)

ConcinusMan
01-31-2011, 12:32 PM
It´s easy to see how lacking of one pigment is changing colours, when you´ve learned that almost all colours on a snake are mixtures of black(blue), red and yellow pigments.

Indeed they are. The effect of different chromatophore's in combination is a fascinating subject. Removing just one pigment from the combination can have surprising results when it reveals color that was normally masked. What may appear to remove red on a snake can actually be the results of the removal of xanthophores, not erythrophores and so a snake that is called "anery" can actually be axanthic, and visa/versa. To complicate matters, xanthosphores are not always yellow, and erythrophores can be yellow, not just red.

Just a theory, but I think that the reason my anery's are blue or green is that the blue/green pigment was there all along, masked by a pigment that is now missing. Could be orange xanthophores, erythophores, or a combination of both that is missing. Either way, I think the blue was always there and has only been revealed by removal of other pigments.

Yeah, thanks for the link Terry. Nice eastern photos! To be honest, I like the look of the 3rd and 4th picture a lot and it appeals to me much more than the erythristic easterns that everybody seems to drool over.

Selkielass
01-31-2011, 12:52 PM
My Abby is an Eastern and she is a real sweetie, even if her subtle coloring may seem dull to those used to fancy Morphs.

Normal Eastern coloring is more subtle than dull in most cases. Abby is brightest on her head and neck, with subtle gradations of Olive, brown, black yellow and tiny half hidden spots of brilliant orange/red speckling the skin beneath the scales along the sides of her neck.

The bright Yellow/tan of the stripes on her back, belly and sides fade to pale tan as you get closer to her tail, and the Olive/black changes to a rich Mahogany brown that shines and reflects light like glossy well pulled taffy- almost pearly. Her tail is a more muted brown, but this just serves to make her 'disappearing act' when she retreats into the underbrush even more effective.

Most of our Michigan easterns tend to be (In my experience) very gentle animals. Catching dozens growing up I was seldom bit, and never in my memory saw blood drawn until I encountered an unusually large and feisty female when I was in Jr, High school. Abby has never attempted to bite my son or myself, even when freshly caught and panicky.

I'm sure much of this may be due to the fact that Easterns and Butlers are what I've grown up with, and am used to, but an old fashioned Yellow and Black stripey 'garden' snake is my hands down favorite.

PINJOHN
01-31-2011, 03:45 PM
My Abby is an Eastern and she is a real sweetie, even if her subtle coloring may seem dull to those used to fancy Morphs.

Normal Eastern coloring is more subtle than dull in most cases. Abby is brightest on her head and neck, with subtle gradations of Olive, brown, black yellow and tiny half hidden spots of brilliant orange/red speckling the skin beneath the scales along the sides of her neck.

The bright Yellow/tan of the stripes on her back, belly and sides fade to pale tan as you get closer to her tail, and the Olive/black changes to a rich Mahogany brown that shines and reflects light like glossy well pulled taffy- almost pearly. Her tail is a more muted brown, but this just serves to make her 'disappearing act' when she retreats into the underbrush even more effective.

Most of our Michigan easterns tend to be (In my experience) very gentle animals. Catching dozens growing up I was seldom bit, and never in my memory saw blood drawn until I encountered an unusually large and feisty female when I was in Jr, High school. Abby has never attempted to bite my son or myself, even when freshly caught and panicky.

I'm sure much of this may be due to the fact that Easterns and Butlers are what I've grown up with, and am used to, but an old fashioned Yellow and Black stripey 'garden' snake is my hands down favorite.

thank you selkielass for your vivid description of abby , it just re-enforces my determination to add more of the eastern's to my slowly growing group.
you where completely unable to to hide your passion for both abby and eastern's, this is one of the reasons that I'm totally convinced that there is no other group which comes even close to garter folk :)

ConcinusMan
01-31-2011, 04:09 PM
I'm sure much of this may be due to the fact that Easterns and Butlers are what I've grown up with, and am used to, but an old fashioned Yellow and Black stripey 'garden' snake is my hands down favorite.

I am quite fond of those myself. Northwestern with that classic black and yellow "gardner snake" look:

http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/691/gedc1487large.jpg


I do like those easterns with that look, as well as T. elegans. I think it does have a lot to do with our earliest fond memories of snakes. By far the most common snake I would find when I was a kid had that look. It then becomes the first image that pops into your head when you think of what a garter snake looks like.

kibakiba
01-31-2011, 04:51 PM
That's what Mama looks like. In my opinion, she's one of my prettiest northwesterns. Time will only tell how Thumbelina and Squirt will look. Most of the garters here are red, with the exception of females, which are few and far between it seems. I've only found one female with red colouring, and she was, unfortunately, dying. I wish I had the money to save Malady from all her blisters, but she also seemed really old.

Mommy2many
01-31-2011, 06:56 PM
Thank you, John. Our Easterns are beautiful animals and deserve recognition among the ranks. The Radix have much colour as well; and each is said to be magnificent.

All in all, our garters are quite admired by all of us, regardless of their origin. They are beautiful, each in their own right; from the black & yellow to the San Fancisco Garter, to the many coloured Radix to the snows. Puget Sounds to the Flames, to the most ordinary olive green and carmel colored. They are loved by us all and not for their looks.

Scott F
02-01-2011, 11:23 PM
Hello Richard,

I have given some thought (now here's a concept) as to how to reply to your rude comments and personal attacks. Normally I sit by idly and bite my tongue when I'm brought up negatively in the forum however since I don't have much of a tongue left, I felt a response was in order. Here's Richard's post from 1/30/2011 that I'm responding to:

__________________________________________________ __________

But anyway, I wouldn't call amelanistic X melanistic a snow either but that's what they're calling them. Also, Scott isn't exactly the authoritive expert even though people seem to think he is. He often calls snakes something they are not. Time and time again I've been seeing people call melanistic snakes "anery" just because they look like anery radixes do. They seem to think that in order to be melanistic, the snake has to be black and patternless and that's just not true. Melanistic northwesters are often dark charcoal gray and sometimes have a faint dorsal stripe. And quite frankly, I fail to see how an "anery" radix can be anery when it wasn't ever normally red in the first place.

A lot of mislabeling going on and misuse of the terms.

__________________________________________________ ___________

Just curious as to what snakes or morphs you mean by this statement as you provided no examples-"He often calls snakes something they are not"

Richard's next statement is:

Also, Scott isn't exactly the authoritive expert even though people seem to think he is.

I have been in the thamnophis hobby longer than probably most of you. This doesn't mean squat, just is what it is. I have never proclaimed myself an expert to anyone. If people want to consider me an expert or don't want to, that's up to them.

I have made mistakes on genetics and do acknowledge that. Genetics is not an exact science, which in of itself is one of the major reasons that I enjoy breeding garters....not knowing what you may ultimately produce breeding A to Z.

The amelanistic eastern bred to the melanistic eastern created double hets and these double hets (surprisingly) produced the first snow eastern.
This came as a complete surprise as what Richard stated is normally true (anerythristic x albino) but as you can see from the pics Don provided, they sure look to be snows. I think we would all be interested to hear what you would call this morph ??

Lastly on the anerythristic genetics, I personally have bred an anerythristic plains to albino plains, which created double het for snows, bred these double hets back to one another and created SNOWS. These snows have been proven out w/ 2 different snow plains strains (Nebraska & Iowa snows). I also bred anerythristic red sideds to albinos, and the resulting double hets were then bred together and they also produced snows. These crosses prove, without any doubt, that the "anerythristic" trait is truly just that, anerythristic.

On a side note is the cool thing w/ creating new morphs is that this allows the breeder the luxury to name the new snake/morph whatever they want, be it the tooty fruity garter snake or the triple chocolate wonder morph. I'm making this point not to be grandiose, but to point out that this is a byproduct (and necessity) of creating a new bloodlines/morphs. One has to attach a name to something new.

Scott

ConcinusMan
02-02-2011, 12:59 AM
First off, it's not a personal attack. Being high profile as you are, it only made it easier to make my point by choosing a breeder that everyone is familiar with, to make the point. I have nothing against you and no reason to attack you personally and if I did, I wouldn't do it here. Sorry if it seemed to be a personal attack. In retrospect, I should have not named names. Lesson learned. Furthermore, I'm always getting myself into these situations because I say what's on my mind and people get personally offended by it. I'm only saying what quite a few other people are thinking,(I won't name names this time, but you might be surprised who they are if I revealed it) and have agreed with me in one on one conversations. The only reason people don't get pissed off at them, is because they don't say these things in a public forum where others might get bruised egos. I do. People can choose to take it as a personal attack if they wish, but that's not why I say these things.

I am preparing a civil response to your other points. Give me some time and I will explain myself, I promise.

ConcinusMan
02-02-2011, 02:44 AM
This is a thread about easterns and so it should remain that way. I'll PM Scott with my responses or perhaps post it in public in a different thread but not here as this would go way off topic. I just want to say I don't have anything against Scott at all. Just labels borrowed from biology placed on morphs in the market when they don't really apply to their original meanings.;) Some of you who don't visit the forum much, prefer person to person meetings or phone calls, and stay quiet and careful not to step on toes in the forum know what I mean.

Back to Easterns. Someone in a private conversation recently asked me about my interest in eastern garters. In spite of all the morphs and cool breeding projects going on, I haven't really given them much consideration. Sure, the high end flames are cool, but too hot for my comfort. I've seen the albinos, I've seen the yellows and the orange on Don's website, I've seen a lot of them. Kinda funny but I like one particular look and it's not expensive or exotic. What I mean is, often the most appealing easterns to me are in photos of wild caught snakes.

I like the following and would consider paying or trading for easterns that look like this. Anybody got any to trade or sell this season? PM me!

I really like the stripeless or nearly stripeless light colored snakes. Very nice. I even saw one similar to this one but it was green, and another that was pinkish looking. I know, sounds like maritime garters but these were easterns.

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll86/aSnakeLovinBabe/247894174.jpg

http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2026073000101507605XriMdF

zooplan
02-02-2011, 04:19 AM
Nice snake ( I can only see one picture).
May I guess it´s a female?
Looks like hypo melanistic and(or) hypo axanthic.
Lacking of the dorsal stripe together with the low contrast is really nice.

ConcinusMan
02-02-2011, 12:12 PM
I believe it's one of the hypos that Shannon got last year. One died and then she miraculously found another that was nearly identical. I don't know what sex it is.

Not sure if it's really hypo or if it's just a color/pattern variation. I've seen others found by other people that were very similar.