San francisco garters?

[RedSidedSPR]

Does anybody here have any san francisco garter snakes? If so where did you get them and how much do they go for? Being endangered and all. Most breeders I've looked at dont breed any.

[zooplan]

If you like to keep San Francisco Garter Snakes, you´ll have to emigrate,
or do it secretly in the underground.
It´s illegal in the entire USA.

[ConcinusMan]

If you want to, you can go observe them in the Wild near waterways along Highway 280 in San Mateo, CA. I've had pretty good luck finding them there. Dang things are hard to photograph though, they spook very easily and bolt, and tend to be way out on shallow water. It's a State Fish and Game Refuge and believe me, they are watching and are very protective of the snakes. You don't want to get caught catching them, even if it's just to take photos.

There's some awesome CA red sideds (infernalis) and other garters in that area too.

No collecting of any of them is legal and penalties are very stiff. You'll do jail time if you get caught messing with the San Fransisco garters. They are a critically endangered species. Highly illegal to possess in the US. Most of the captive snakes in Europe are descended from legally acquired animals.

[guidofatherof5]

http://www.epa.gov/espp/factsheets/sf-garter-snake.pdf

[RedSidedSPR]

seriously? No captive-breds? I've seen pictures of of captive ones in some of my books and stuff, but I guess they are not his. I knew they were illegal to catch, but I thought there would be some for sale... at a pretty high price. How do they get them in the UK?

[guidofatherof5]

All the current snakes are produced from the original snakes shipped to Europe many years ago.

Udo can give some specific on when they were shipped and how many.

[ConcinusMan]

Like I said...


Most of the captive snakes in Europe are descended from legally acquired animals.

Just put it out of your mind. Forget about keeping SF garters in the U.S.A. U.S. keepers have the advantage of legally keeping many awesome species of garters, and the advantage of observing them in the wild, but SF garters are off limits unless you want to travel to San Mateo, CA and observe SF garters (but not collect) in the wild.

Seems harsh, but in spite of "Euros" being able to keep CB SF garters legally, we still have the advantage as far as keeping a wide variety of Thamnophis goes.;)

[guidofatherof5]

seriously? No captive-breds? I've seen pictures of of captive ones in some of my books and stuff, but I guess they are not his. I knew they were illegal to catch, but I thought there would be some for sale... at a pretty high price. How do they get them in the UK?

The S.F. Zoo is working in a possible captive breeding program but there are many things standing in their way.
I've spoken to the director of the program and he states he's working with the E.P.A. in hopes something can be done in the future.

[ConcinusMan]

Captive breeding I feel is not the answer to saving this species in the wild but if they don't wake up and get a healthy captive population going before something catastrophic happens to the wild population, we could lose the species entirely.

I'm all for responsible and authorized collecting (Even if it's just to "borrow" wild snakes and return them) for captive breeding in zoos right here in the U.S. I would like to see healthy populations of these snakes in zoos, and to see zoos exchanging them for breeding programs. At least that way if there's a catastrophe in the wild, there will be a healthy gene pool of captives to save the species. Better to have them behind glass than to not have them at all.:cool:

[Stefan-A]

All the current snakes are produced from the original snakes shipped to Europe many years ago.

Udo can give some specific on when they were shipped and how many.
San Francisco Garter Snake : Thamnophis.com (http://www.thamnophis.com/archive/articles/artic3.htm)

Note the url and the authors.

[guidofatherof5]

Thanks, Stefan.;)

[zooplan]

www is an endless universe :D
I remember the layout of that article, we had a nice chat here those days.

Some of the year dates are wrong because they were told from reminding
instead of zoo archives.
So it´s not only a document of the breeding status of 1998 but furthermore any image of the knowledge at that time.

[RedSidedSPR]

I'm cool with not keeping them, I was just kinda surprised. I always thought you could buy them somewhere... even if it was from the UK.

[ConcinusMan]

Well you can... just not if you live here in the U.S.:cool: Just as some species of garters are illegal to keep in certain states. CA for example. Illegal to keep any garters that are native to CA if you live in CA. The only difference here is, with S.F. garters, it's illegal to keep them anywhere in the U.S.

[zooplan]

Furthermore it´s illegal to send them to any US-keeper.
Nobody who wants to visit USA again should risk.
There´s a Germany guy testing California jail for sending spiders ilegally although they where legally bred in his home.

[guidofatherof5]

Furthermore it´s illegal to send them to any US-keeper.
Nobody who wants to visit USA again should risk.
There´s a Germany guy testing California jail for sending spiders ilegally although they where legally bred in his home.

Testing the jail:rolleyes: never heard it put that way before.
Sounds rather innocuous:D

[zooplan]

Einstein shall once said:
There are two endless things,
the univers and human asininely,
but I´m not sure about the univers yet!

[Mommy2many]

My favourite quote.

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah, I like that one too. Almost used it for my signature at one time.

[Mommy2many]

I have it for my signature on the other forum:D

[RepGuru]

thanks for that link - a very informative article indeed although the numbers os specimens seems badly outdated. My own desire to obtain a couple of specimens in England has so far been unsuccessful. Just one opportunity came my way but the price was just off the reasonable scale!!

[PINJOHN]

it might be best to be cautious when it comes to san frans its being claimed that in the UK at least, some are unexpectedly dyeing at around two years of age,
i would recommend contacting Alan Francis as he knows his stuff, and he gets his garters from as wide a source as possible, he is very friendly and helpful.

[RedSidedSPR]

Man, i started this thread so long ago i forgot it was mine... who decided wake it from the dead?

[infernalis]

... who decided wake it from the dead?

Not sure, but it brought to mind a discussion I have had with a construction worker from California.

He told me about how they have to gather all the snakes they can possibly find prior to breaking ground for a job site.

The snakes are relocated to a safer habitat.

He also indicated to me that there is many acres of private land with populations of tetrataenia that are not being counted in the government census research (population estimates)

Since I cannot vouch for word of mouth information, I do not endorse that statement, but it does sound like it could be valid.

[RedSidedSPR]

hmmm.. at least they're moving the snakes. Wouldn't do that here. I guess it's only because they're endangered

[RepGuru]

Yes I'm aware of this problem. The one's I was offered were from someone ultra reliable and trustworthy. He would not risk his reputation by selling on animals with any problems at all. The asking price was insane so I'm still looking.....!

[ConcinusMan]

Price always has been, and always will be "insane" if you're still looking for a SF garter specifically.

[RedSidedSPR]

I'm not. Never really was.

[ConcinusMan]

Wasn't really talking to you. See the post immediately above.

[BUSHSNAKE]

even if we were able to get them from Europe who would want a multiple generation inbred animal?...cuz its pretty? Then i heard someone in Germany wanted to accuire a wildcaught tetratenia and he also says "Stop commercial collecting of gartersnake" no matter how many tetratenia are produced in captivity it isnt gonna change their status in the wild, thats why there are laws...laws? YES LAWS many people think garters dont get the protection they need...but indeed they do

[Philminator]

so I'm guessing the only reason we're allowed to have them in Canada is that they aren't native to this country? because they've been bred and sold in Canada as far as 2001, I just can't find the guy on the net but many people still use his name

[ssssnakeluvr]

yes, they are fine outside the United States....very anal and protective here..... violate federal laws if you have one...even if you have paperwork documenting they are captive bred overseas....

[Spankenstyne]

Hey Phil, we can have them up here because their protected status is only in the US, they're not CITES even so outside of the US they're fine.

Dr Phil Blais has bred them in the past here in Canada, that's probably who you're thinking of Phil. He's well known for his work with the Eastern Flame garters as well. He had a pair of San Frans available at an expo out East years ago for $1500 (if I remember the article correctly) but I haven't heard of anyone selling any up here since. He's also gifted some to close friends of his over the years so there are others who have them, they're around but never advertised. I know at least one gentleman who has/had some, unfortunately I'm not one of the lucky few when it comes to them. Perhaps one day.

[ConcinusMan]

Hey Phil, we can have them up here because their protected status is only in the US, they're not CITES even so outside of the US they're fine.

Sounds like the perfect loophole to encourage poaching/smuggling, especially with the prices they go for.




they're around but never advertised.

Gee, I wonder why?:cool: Well, I'll tell you what Chris, I know plenty of people that would be willing to come to Canada and bring you some, hand delivered, at half the $1500 price tag.:rolleyes: It's not like they're hard to get. It's no big secret where they can be found in fairly decent numbers. Clearly, the only solution that would make this kind of thing not happen, is if they were completely worthless in Canada, as they are here in the U.S.

I still think that this is how some snakes get into Europe. (illegally collected and brought into Canada) All this B.S. about them all being decended from legally acquired animals years ago is well... B.S.

[Spankenstyne]

I'm quite sure that Dr Blais' animals are/were direct descendents of the legal snakes that were originally exported to England, but I also don't doubt that the vast majority of the other tetrataenia currently outside the US are from smuggled animals.

They certainly didn't sell at that $1500 though for what it's worth. Garters in general are also a very niche snake up here as well and unfortunately thought of as "jumpy & worthless" by most. I may be wrong but I think that he probably was being a bit cheeky listing them at that price & didn't intend on selling them. Just a guess though as I don't know him personally.

[guidofatherof5]

Sounds like the perfect loophole to encourage poaching/smuggling, especially with the prices they go for.



Gee, I wonder why?:cool: Well, I'll tell you what Chris, I know plenty of people that would be willing to come to Canada and bring you some, hand delivered, at half the $1500 price tag.:rolleyes: It's not like they're hard to get. It's no big secret where they can be found in fairly decent numbers. Clearly, the only solution that would make this kind of thing not happen, is if they were completely worthless in Canada, as they are here in the U.S.

I still think that this is how some snakes get into Europe. (illegally collected and brought into Canada) All this B.S. about them all being decended from legally acquired animals years ago is well... B.S.

I think Udo may have the skinny on the original snakes exported.
Hoping he'll have some time to post on it.

[ConcinusMan]

I already know the story.

[guidofatherof5]

I already know the story.

Is this the story that you think is B.S?

If so, were did you acquire the truth?

I by no means am tring to start an argument but wonder how you know the real truth.

[ConcinusMan]

It's not the story that I think is B.S. it's the notion that every S.F. garter in captivity is, or is descended from 100% legally acquired snakes that I think is B.S. I'm not buying it. Illegal collecting of this species still happens. They don't just vanish into thin air. They are slipped into collections outside the U.S., mostly by smuggling into Canada and then onto Europe, and then passed off as legal. I already know that people in Europe have been buying "legal" ones out of Canada that are probably illegally collected, or born of illegally collected adults. As long as they remain legal in Canada and off of CITES list, there's nothing to stop it from happening.

[RepGuru]

I'm in complete agreement regarding that ridiculous $1500 price tag. That sort of figure really WILL get the dishonest juices flowing in certain circles!! Tetra's are not hard to find in Europe. They were on sale in Hamm earlier this month for 80 euros - about $115 each. Last year a guy in England couldn't get his sold at all and ended up selling them to a pet shop for £15 each about $22. I'm still reeling from an offer to sell me three adult proven tetra's - two males and a gravid female, for £700 which is less than a grand U.S..........without going into personal stuff I wasn't able to go through with the deal. The seller was desperate for the snake room back for the new baby!! Frankly, having heard the recent reports of animals dying at just 2 years of age I am giving young tetra's a very wide swerve and only looking for sub-adults. Just an added bit of info here though - the popularity of Liophis is growing steadily here in England.

[PINJOHN]

I still think that this is how some snakes get into Europe. (illegally collected and brought into Canada) All this B.S. about them all being decended from legally acquired animals years ago is well... B.S.[/QUOTE]

i don't recall the details fully but i know that a breeding project for San Frans was set up with the Gerald Durrell wildlife conservation trust, a world renowned zoo set up for the protection of endanged animals and plants through breeding programs, in the British channel Isle's Jersey zoo, it's my understanding that this is the source of the European stock and while it cant be ruled out that wild caught may have been smuggled into Europe, i would think that the inbred state of European San Frans argues against this being a regular occurrence,
my computer skills being somewhat sparse it would be a lot faster for your self to follow this lead and find out more on their origins in Europe

[infernalis]

Each year the breeders I know of have produced quite a few genetic defects like 2 heads & missing jaws...

sure sounds like that "fresh blood" Richard is so certain of is only finding it's way into fantasy stock not being offered for sale except in exclusive circles of smugglers and poachers who wish to keep them all to themselves.

Thamnophis is still a very narrow niche' market. No smuggler/poacher in his or her right mind is going to poach any federally protected animals without someone to sell them to.

Virtually all of the US breeders who deal in legal snakes have to work to sell them all, so now I ask this.. would you take such a high risk with such low chance of returns?? doubt it.

the interest is not strong enough to warrant such a gamble.

[ConcinusMan]

Perhaps. I hope you're right.

[Spankenstyne]

I just found an article/interview with Dr Blais from the OHS news Dec 2000, where it's noted that he was in fact selling his pairs of babies for $1600 (my memory was a bit off haha), which at the time is said to have been on par with the European price.

A quote regarding the origins of the Euro stock:

"The original animals that were acquired by the Jersey Zoo in England were acquired with the fully legal nod from the U.S. Department of the Interior and USF&W, but none have been since, and that was only three animals. So it’s an unfortunate situation that the present European gene pool most probably owes more to illegal poaching than to the original founding stock from the zoo, which makes for a big gray area, legally speaking. "

From The San Francisco Garter Snake in Canada - gartersnake.info (http://www.gartersnake.info/articles/the_san_francis.php)

It's not just something Richard came up with, it's a fairly widely held belief.

[Spankenstyne]

Another writeup on the grey areas & secrecy surrounding the Euro population back in 98 even:

The actual European population

The actual number of specimens of Thamnophis sirtalis tetrataenia in Europe is not so easy to find out. Some people seem to transfer the difficult situation resulting from the overprotection in the USA to Europe. In fact a few number of keepers of the San Francisco Garter Snake do not cooperate. They maintain a strict silence about all themes concerning these special snakes. When asked about details of keeping conditions, breeding success or other points of interest they refuse to give any information about the animals kept. So what we only can give is the number of animals which we know for sure. The real number of San Francisco Garter Snakes in Europe can only be estimated.

But on the other hand we do have a lot of personal contacts to breeders of the San Francisco Garter Snake and we think that we can estimate the actual situation sufficiently. Table 1 shows the number of specimens of Thamnophis sirtalis tetrataenia we know in Europe. The total amount is about 90 animals. Poland (40), Germany (23), the Netherlands (15), Austria (4-5) and Switzerland (3) are the countries with the most exact data. It is known that there exist some San Francisco Garter Snakes in England but we don't have any actual information about these specimens. The total number of snakes of this subspecies of Thamnophis sirtalis in Europe we estimate to about 130-140 specimens in maximum.

14 of the specimens mentioned above are kept by members of the EUROPEAN GARTER SNAKE ASSOCIATION (ZERNECKE, 1997). At the moment there are 3 zoos in Europe, that keep Thamnophis sirtalis tetrataenia: The Diergaarde Rotterdam (Netherlands), the Zoo in Lodz (Poland) and the Zoo in Munster (Germany). The breeding group of the Zoo in Jersey (England) was recently sold to an English breeder about whom we unfortunately know nothing.


From a translated article on this very site: San Francisco Garter Snake : Thamnophis.com (http://www.thamnophis.com/archive/articles/artic3.htm)

[ConcinusMan]

Well there you go, why all the secrecy? makes you wonder.

[zooplan]

Both sources metioned above are very, very, very old!
Probably five generations in Garter Snake breeding.

The estimated European population is now anything between one and some thousands.

The price for Thamnophis sirtalis tetrateania is down at 60 to 120 Euros per juvenile snake, depending to its´pedigree and reputaion of the breeder.

There are no more secrets about the maintenance of San Francisco Garter Snakes (or very few;))

Would you risk, what you´d have to, for maybe dubbling those prices for maybe one season?

I believe that threatening by illegal collection is a farytail to hide the dimension of threatening by commercial and private land use.

Sharp Park Golf Course is just a medium serious example!

[Spankenstyne]

Yep it seem silly to try now, at least for monetary reasons. Wasn't so silly 10 or so years ago though & not a stretch to think as very possible then, which would mean that a number of the current population is from those lines. Not saying I have any proof or anything but just pointing out that it's been a belief held by more than a few people. Folks refusing to speak about it certainly doesn't help change those beliefs.

[PINJOHN]

It would be interesting to know how members see the future of the san fran,do you for instance foresee the developers winning and leaving no place for these stunning snakes? do you hold the view that your wildlife services could care less about the san frans future and might be turning a blind eye to threats to the snakes,
the perverse situation is that here in Europe we are allowed to keep them but not so in the USA, the sting in the tale of course is they are now so inbred that the European stock are in as much trouble as their American kin.
some months ago i posed a hypothetical question about strengthening the European stock with out crosses, using a recessive eastern like a melanistic which brought a number of objections, i stress that this was hypothetical and remains so,
the Resurrection of this thread has started me thinking and has decided me to put forward my arguments for the crossing, i start by stating that i remain as much a purist when it comes to garters as everybody else on the site, i have never had any desire to see a puget crossed with a checkerd or any other abomination, just to see what you get, but i would like to see the big European breeders with a knowledge of genetics take on the task of reinvigorating the san fran gene pool, this snake for me is the most beautiful snake in the world and should be given every chance to go on sharing our planet alongside us, the situation is unique in that the European stock will not come into contact with the original American stock [what would be the point of smuggling the snakes INTO the USA] the future owners of the snakes would know of their gene strengthened history, for me its a win win situation we get to keep this wonderful snake in the healthy state to which its entitled and the progression towards its extinction in Europe is halted.
i dont believe for a minute that i have covered every argument or even many of them, i hope that my comments can stimulate arguments for and against and i expect to hear points that have just not occurred to me, but if your argument comes down to" i would rather they just died out" then that's a view i will never share.

[infernalis]

In theory it would make more sense to use Infernalis stock since that species is so nearly identical and from the same area??

[PINJOHN]

i suggested a recessive eastern because i was thinking that this paring would produce young that were visually san frans which is the object of the exercise, i am supposing that using infernalis would give a snake that visually represents something between the two which is not what you would want.
having said that my knowledge of genetics is woeful.

[ConcinusMan]

In theory it would make more sense to use Infernalis stock since that species is so nearly identical and from the same area??

It wouldn't make any sense to "strengthen" them by crossbreeding with any other subspecies. No matter what you do from that point on, they aren't SF garters anymore.

[Stefan-A]

In theory it would make more sense to use Infernalis stock since that species is so nearly identical and from the same area??
Appearance isn't everything. It wouldn't be any different from breeding them to any random T. sirtalis subspecies.

[Stefan-A]

It would be interesting to know how members see the future of the san fran,do you for instance foresee the developers winning and leaving no place for these stunning snakes?
The developers will win and the inbred captive population will create a demand for fresh material from an already declining wild population. Within the next 30-50 years it'll get the IUCN classification EW and then possibly EX, unless San Francisco gets teleported away and the former habitats are restored.

[jitami]

That's closer to what I was thinking, Stefan. The developers have already won if you want to put it that way. There's already too much development, too much urban sprawl, and too many people. I think our only hope for their survival in the 'wild' is if they adapt and expand their range... but without human assistance I really don't see this happening and with human assistance it would very likely be at the cost of another species struggling to survive.