Help ID a mystery garter

[Stefan-A]

This snake popped up on the local forum, I'd like to hear your thoughts on it.


http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs745.ash1/163757_1631154936282_1158889513_31337966_2064140_n .jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/hs005.snc6/165530_1631155376293_1158889513_31337968_2623763_n .jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs1388.snc4/164031_1631155496296_1158889513_31337969_6497331_n .jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/hs266.snc6/179482_1631155576298_1158889513_31337970_4150619_n .jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/hs049.snc6/167955_1631155736302_1158889513_31337971_718979_n. jpg


More pictures. The URL may not work right away and might give you a 403, but if you click in the address bar and hit enter, it should load.

http://rave.irc-galleria.net/l/images02/01/53/37/77/117939594.jpg?h=2339b7daa6d2c3b06927ab19742011fa34 39f80b&t=1296188872

http://rave.irc-galleria.net/l/images02/01/53/37/77/117939590.jpg?h=15a01069253ba440b2f1a30d8a7d6b0d90 2757ef&t=1296568328

http://rave.irc-galleria.net/l/images02/01/53/37/77/98235564.jpg?h=b8f4bd0790631db321688efe64e1a6125bd ae0e8&t=1296457953

I know what most of you are going to guess, but be suspicious.

[guidofatherof5]

I'm leaning towards T.radix but something looks off(black blotches)
7 supralabials, 10 infralabials and lateral on row 3and 4 if I counted right.

[Stefan-A]

That's the conclusion I came to; T. radix, but something's off. I suspected that it could even be a radix x sirtalis hybrid, but I did do a little bit of googling for pictures and I did see a few T. radix that had almost no black dorsal pattern, or had just those lower spots along the upper edge of the lateral stripes. I'm sure I've seen a couple like that here, as well. But the color is nearly solid here.

[guidofatherof5]

I've got one radix(VP) with the vanishing black pattern.
That snake's black is never very dominate throughout its whole body.
I'm not sure I see any sirtalis influence but really don't know.
Very nice looking female.

I was thinking radix from the start even before I did any scale counting.
Seen a few of those in my time.:D

[Stefan-A]

It would be so much easier if we could see the real colours. I'm definitely not ruling out a pure T. radix at this point.

[guidofatherof5]

It's not the lack of black blotches that is throwing me.
It's her head. Very long for T.radix, in my oppinion.
Granted, I've seen a few radix female with long heads but not as a rule.

[Stefan-A]

I think that might just be the angle.

[gregmonsta]

After crossing off all the crazy thoughts/options I'm left with radix after a few zooms in and out. Very interesting pattern indeed.

[ssssnakeluvr]

I am going with radix also....

[Mommy2many]

When I first saw it, the snake reminded me of our Easterns...but not quite. Maybe the same feeling you are getting about it being a radix...but not quite. Stefan, you mentioned it could be a hybrid (right verbage?) sirtalis and radix?

[Stefan-A]

Stefan, you mentioned it could be a hybrid (right verbage?) sirtalis and radix?
Yeah, but I'm starting to think that those suspicions were unfounded.

[EasternGirl]

The head looks exactly like Selena..even the little dots on the head...maybe there is some Eastern in there...

[RedSidedSPR]

I'm pretty sure it's radix too. That's what I thought when I saw it. I don't know all that scale-counting-row-five stuff, but I think I know a radix when I see it.

This picture looks just like the snake in the picture.
http://www.agamen.de/thams/fotos/radix01_0407.jpg
All the pics do here... mostly.
Th. radix (http://www.agamen.de/thams/radix.html)
I don't see how it could be anything else. But what do I know?

[zooplan]

If it´s no T.radix, maybe T.sirtalis anectens ?
I would tell leteral stripe is on row 2 and 3 from the last of the linked pictures.
Scale rows count might be a hint!

[Stefan-A]

I suppose annectens is a possibility. However, in those pictures you can only see the stripe close to the head and tail, where scale row counts often don't apply.

[gregmonsta]

I was looking at annectens pictures when I first saw it (as well as elegans variants and eques variants). Pretty sure it's not annectens from what I saw.

[ssssnakeluvr]

definitely not annectans.... the third photo shows real clear the lateral stripe on the 3rd and 4th rows. looks full radix to me

[drache]

it totally looks like a radix to me
the first, overly green pic reminded me of a radix I saw at an expo four years ago I still beat myself up over, because she was amazing and unusual - no pattern, just solid olive green top and sides with a yellow dorsal

[ConcinusMan]

I think it's just a radix too. Maybe not exactly typical, but radix.

[guidofatherof5]

Stefan,
Is this snake for sale in your area or was the person just seeking an ID?

[Stefan-A]

It was an animal care student's assignment to make care sheets for a bunch of species and this person needed these animals identified.

[guidofatherof5]

It was an animal care student's assignment to make care sheets for a bunch of species and this person needed these animals identified.

Thanks.

[Stefan-A]

By "these animals", I was referring to this radix and a proximus that was relatively easy to ID.

[zooplan]

Here is another puzzle!

http://www.zooplan.net/images/heubach_gartersnake_1910.jpg

http://www.zooplan.net/images/heubach_gartersnake_head.jpg

[Stefan-A]

T. s. infernalis or T. s. dorsalis?

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah, looks like it's supposed to be infernalis.

[ssssnakeluvr]

infernalis would be my closest guess

[kibakiba]

I thought infernalis when I saw it. Pretty little snakes. :D

[ConcinusMan]

The only time I've ever seen them in person was in the wild, and they were anything but little. Little monstrosities perhaps.:p

[kibakiba]

Oh I know they're somewhat big... But... They are little compared to me. :D I wouldn't mind having one, even if it was a hissy and pissy one that never liked me. I could put a sign in my yard that said "attack snake" and any person that dared come on our property gets my little monster set loose on them.... :D We have a no trespassing sign, but people always ignore it. It gets annoying after a while.

[mustang]

i wanted to say Concinnus at first...and still....SOMEONE CORRECT ME WITH FACTS THIS IS KILLING ME!!!

[ConcinusMan]

Doesn't even look a little bit like a concinnus

[guidofatherof5]

i wanted to say Concinnus at first...and still....SOMEONE CORRECT ME WITH FACTS THIS IS KILLING ME!!!



Doesn't even look a little bit like a concinnus


He wanted some facts Richard not a slam.;)

[ConcinusMan]

Wasn't meant as such. You know I would like to give out some facts, and maybe even some downright fabricated opinions with nothing to back it up, but Robert didn't elaborate and you know how slow I can be. I mean, what kind of facts?

Wait a sec... I think I might have an idea. Robert, even though it's just a drawing I get the feeling to represents a real snake. Without getting into the exceptions, a concinnus is red spotted. Infernalis and parietalis are red sided, often literally, meaning their sides are red other than some black spotting. Given those two choices of "red sided" snakes, I think it looks more like infernalis.

You can see how the sides on that snake appear to be red with some dark blotches. A concinnus would typically be dark with some red spots, not red with dark spots.

[guidofatherof5]

Exactly. Thanks.;)

[ConcinusMan]

Oh I know they're somewhat big... But... They are little compared to me. :D I wouldn't mind having one, even if it was a hissy and pissy one that never liked me. I could put a sign in my yard that said "attack snake" and any person that dared come on our property gets my little monster set loose on them.... :D We have a no trespassing sign, but people always ignore it. It gets annoying after a while.


I hear you Chantel. I've kept some pretty aggressive snakes before that were a royal PITA when it comes to handling or any kind of interaction. But if it's a garter, is pretty, and it eats well, I don't mind the attitude. If I want some love, I always got my tame "puppy dog" garters. Angry rat snakes, garter snakes, gopher snakes.. I've kept them too. They are rewarding and admirable in their own way. I just don't expect to cuddle with them.:p

[kibakiba]

I cuddle with all my snakes. Snap may hate me but she does seem to enjoy the cuddles, especially when she gets to be in my nice warm bed getting a neckrub when I'm not feeling good... Wait... She's supposed to be the one rubbing my neck... They've tricked me again. :( :D

[zooplan]

I´m still confused about only one row of black spots.
The artist died in 1923.
The picture was drawn in Munich.
Maybe the model was a dead snake in alcohol.
I don´t know, if he has visited Amerika.

[Stefan-A]

I saw pictures of both dorsalis and infernalis yesterday, that both had the same dorsal pattern. The difference was the coloration of the lateral stripe and below, and the infernalis looked almost exactly like the one in the picture.

If he drew the snake from memory, or used a sketch, or a preserved specimen or skin, then it's possible that he just made a mistake.

[mustang]

Wasn't meant as such. You know I would like to give out some facts, and maybe even some downright fabricated opinions with nothing to back it up, but Robert didn't elaborate and you know how slow I can be. I mean, what kind of facts?

Wait a sec... I think I might have an idea. Robert, even though it's just a drawing I get the feeling to represents a real snake. Without getting into the exceptions, a concinnus is red spotted. Infernalis and parietalis are red sided, often literally, meaning their sides are red other than some black spotting. Given those two choices of "red sided" snakes, I think it looks more like infernalis.

You can see how the sides on that snake appear to be red with some dark blotches. A concinnus would typically be dark with some red spots, not red with dark spots.
if only politics were this straight (no double meaning :p intended)
thanks

[mustang]

I´m still confused about only one row of black spots.
The artist died in 1923.
The picture was drawn in Munich.
Maybe the model was a dead snake in alcohol.
I don´t know, if he has visited Amerika.
we all know what you meant but its AmeriCa.:p
no offense im just being trained to proof read stuff on an enormous level in english 3 ap.....rhetoric is all were learning! I MISS FREE WRITING!!!

[Stefan-A]

we all know what you meant but its AmeriCa.:p
no offense im just being trained to proof read stuff on an enormous level in english 3 ap.....rhetoric is all were learning! I MISS FREE WRITING!!!

Capital letters, punctuation. Just saying.

Yes, I know. Sentence fragments. Don't care.

[mustang]

Capital letters, punctuation. Just saying.

Yes, I know. Sentence fragments. Don't care.
smart @$$:p:Dwell we all are:rolleyes:

[ConcinusMan]

if only politics were this straight (no double meaning :p intended)
thanks

But it's not that simple. If only it was. infernalis and parietalis are both highly variable. Some might even fit the description "dark with red spots" ;)

[mustang]

But it's not that simple. If only it was. infernalis and parietalis are both highly variable. Some might even fit the description "dark with red spots" ;)
so i may be right and yall maybe wrong?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! naahhh impossable

[kibakiba]

Impossible.
Take a look at a concinnus, or any other then look at a high blue infernalis, it looks just like that picture, and, the facial shape matches a pissy infernalis. But, what would I know. I'm only good at knowing facial shapes that I've seen and northwestern garters.

[mustang]

Impossible.
Take a look at a concinnus, or any other then look at a high blue infernalis, it looks just like that picture, and, the facial shape matches a pissy infernalis. But, what would I know. I'm only good at knowing facial shapes that I've seen and northwestern garters.
pissy ifernalis?!
that term is now banned from ww.thamnophis.com as it insults a species of garter snake.....all are awesome here:D

[ConcinusMan]

It's not an insult at all. It's just how they are.

[mustang]

It's not an insult at all. It's just how they are.
LOW BLOWS AINT ALOWED!:p

[kibakiba]

It is how they are. They seem like something that might be under your bed. Better look, Robert. They might getcha when you go to bed!

[mustang]

It is how they are. They seem like something that might be under your bed. Better look, Robert. They might getcha when you go to bed!
???? they piss a lot?
IM LOST
(and i checked under my bed.....no monsters tonight (unless stephen king has anything to say about it.....but he usually dosnt))

[kibakiba]

Pissy... Have you ever met a "pissy" girl? As in pissed off. That is how they are.

[ssssnakeluvr]

mine is very pissy too... cranky snake!!!