Loving snakes

[kibakiba]

I talked to a few of my friends about how affectionate my garters were and they're convinced that snakes and reptiles in general aren't evolved enough to have any feeling other than hunger, pain and fear. I've read a bit into it and a more scientific reason they don't have the sort of feeling that I believe them to have is that they don't have the lobe that creates those feelings. What I don't get when if comes to that is, if they only have those few feelings, what would cause them to do what they do? For example, Steve's snakes seem to genuinely love him. Mama comes up to my hand, coils up and hangs out with me. If I'm having a bad day, something about the way she acts almost seems like she's worried about me and does things that make me smile. I might be thinking too much into it, but the way peoples snakes act and how mine act... It seems like too much to be a coincidence that they just "happen" to do these things right when something else happens. If the snakes only have those few feelings, how is it that they seem to enjoy having interaction, even having their necks rubbed?
If I don't hold and love on my snakes for a while, they seem to seek out the attention that they haven't gotten. Maybe it seems a bit stupid that I'm asking this, but I would truly like to know what your opinions are... I can't be the only one that notices this.

Do you think snakes have feelings other than the basic feelings?


If this doesn't make too much sense, don't blame me... I've been up for 24 hours and had a Monster energy drink and some pie.

[snakeman]

They want food.That's it.Plain and simple.The same as if man's best friend was starving.He would probally eat you!.lol

[kibakiba]

I don't know about that. With Mama she would probably try to eat me if I didn't feed her for 2 days. But considering I make sure that they get food and have their bellies full about every day, that doesn't seem likely ;)

[guidofatherof5]

I think much of what you are seeing and feeling is a direct result of them trusting you. They see you as a food source and are not threatened by you.
What you are doing is called Anthropomorphism
Anthropomorphism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropomorphism)
The intellect(if I have any) in me agrees with those people who who think they are simply eating, pooping, breeding, machines. Unable to feel complex emotions and feelings.
Now, before someone thinks I've gone over to the dark side(Just kidding) let me explain.
I hope that there is more going on in their heads. Do I think that I see signs of it from time to time, yes.
Me believing that my snakes want to see me and enjoy the handling they receive makes me feel good. I care deeply for my animals and hope that feeling is returned.
Can I prove that return? no.
I can prove that it makes me feel better. I hope that my compassion for my animals makes me treat other humans with more compassion.
I hope that my children grow to respect wildlife/animals and live a life that is a benefit to everyone.
Are we wrong in our feelings? yes and no.
I don't think I'm doing any harm to my animals or human counterparts by believing the way I do.
Will I keep on believing what I do? yes.
Just my opinion.

[kibakiba]

I have heard of anthropomorphism, but I don't believe I'm placing human characteristics on an animal or anything else. From how I see it, and now that I've had a bit of rest... There has to be more than them eating, sleeping, pooping and breeding going on in their heads. If they had just the basic feelings in their mind the way most people seem to think, they technically wouldn't come to trust you. To them, you're a scary huge monster. The scary monster just happens to make food and water appear. The way my friends put it, my snakes wouldn't be able to connect my giving them food, to me being trust-able. Their brain is too simple for that. In other words, they think that snakes can not trust one of them even said that they act tame out of fear that I'll hurt them. I can't see my snakes coming, willingly, to my hand and seeming to seek out the attention they want... Out of fear. That doesn't make any sense at all. Sure, when they are hungry they come to my hand in what seems like hopes to find food appearing there, but when Mama is full, or one of the babies is full, they come up to me and rest their heads on my hands. Most people wold say its for warmth, just because they're cold. I keep my snakes warm, it's constantly around 70-80 degrees during the day and 60-65 during the night.

Part of me always wants to believe that they do "love" and that they "love" me. and part of me does believe their mind is simple, but at the same time I think people don't give snakes enough credit for their intelligence. Much like other animals. Some people think "oh, it's just a stupid animal" but you can see how intelligent animals are when you observe them often. I observe my snakes all the time, it's not just eating and sleeping going on. If it was, would every snake have the personalities that they have? I don't think so.
Maybe it's the part of me that never matured into an adult, much of my brain seems to have been stuck in the "child" stage where I'd believe in things like dragons and unicorns.
When Mama is looking at me while I'm stroking her head or rubbing her neck, I can just see that there's more going on than "where's the food, must have food"

When I'm upset, it's like my dog and my macaw sense that. My dog will sit with me, lick my arm and try to cuddle up to me. Willy, who is usually a very pissy bird and bites all the time, will let me hold him, he tries talking and doing his affectionate clicking sounds and he grooms me. Like them, Mama seems to at least sense that something isn't right. She acts differently when I'm not happy and when I am happy. I could be over examining it or imagining things, but I have written down in a notebook how I was feeling and how my snakes and my dog and macaw reacted to the different feelings. It doesn't seem like a coincidence to me. Though, I understand that it could just be a huge coincidence, it just doesn't seem likely in my mind.

[Stefan-A]

If they had just the basic feelings in their mind the way most people seem to think, they technically wouldn't come to trust you.
Sure they would. Nothing magical about positive reinforcement.


To them, you're a scary huge monster. The scary monster just happens to make food and water appear."Just" is hardly the word I'd use. Positive reinforcement plus avoiding appearing as a threat.


The way my friends put it, my snakes wouldn't be able to connect my giving them food, to me being trust-able. Their brain is too simple for that.I don't find any reason to assume that.


, but when Mama is full, or one of the babies is full, they come up to me and rest their heads on my hands. Most people wold say its for warmth, just because they're cold. I keep my snakes warm, it's constantly around 70-80 degrees during the day and 60-65 during the night. And when they've eaten, they prefer higher temperatures than usual, because it helps them digest the food. The temperature of your skin is about 33 C or 91 F, significantly higher than the ambient temperature.


Part of me always wants to believe that they do "love" and that they "love" me. and part of me does believe their mind is simple, but at the same time I think people don't give snakes enough credit for their intelligence. Much like other animals. Some people think "oh, it's just a stupid animal" but you can see how intelligent animals are when you observe them often.But believing doesn't make things real and if you want to believe something, that pretty much proves that you recognize that it's not real. And people give themselves too much credit. Our behavior may be more complex, but everything we do ultimately just revolves around breeding. Everything we do is connected to passing along genes, whether it's eating, sleeping, pooping or keeping pets.


I observe my snakes all the time, it's not just eating and sleeping going on. If it was, would every snake have the personalities that they have? I don't think so. Nature and nurture. Applies to snakes as well.


When Mama is looking at me while I'm stroking her head or rubbing her neck, I can just see that there's more going on than "where's the food, must have food" But you do know that you're not actually seeing anything.


When I'm upset, it's like my dog and my macaw sense that. My dog will sit with me, lick my arm and try to cuddle up to me. Willy, who is usually a very pissy bird and bites all the time, will let me hold him, he tries talking and doing his affectionate clicking sounds and he grooms me.Both are relatively intelligent, social animals. Much like us, they've benefited from being able to communicate with other flock members.


Like them, Mama seems to at least sense that something isn't right. She acts differently when I'm not happy and when I am happy. I could be over examining it or imagining things, but I have written down in a notebook how I was feeling and how my snakes and my dog and macaw reacted to the different feelings. It doesn't seem like a coincidence to me. Though, I understand that it could just be a huge coincidence, it just doesn't seem likely in my mind.Your behavior presumably also depends on your mood.

[ConcinusMan]

Gotta agree with Stefan here. There's been many times that Chantel, and others, have said some pretty outlandish things to explain a snakes behavior. Affection for their owner being one of those things. I think people are seeing what they want to believe. I do not believe our snakes love us, or have any affection or gratitude toward us at all. I don't believe they are even capable of such emotions. I don't usually say anything because people really seem to enjoy thinking these things, and I don't want to "burst their bubble"

They have simply been conditioned to tolerate us, and to expect food from us. This should not be mistaken for love or affection. If left to fend for themselves in the wild, your snake wouldn't miss you one bit. Can I prove that beyond a doubt? Not really. Just an opinion but consider this: If you were to let your snake loose, would it hang around like a dog or cat would? Heck no, it would take off and not even look back.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Garter snakes are different from a lot of other snakes. we all know that. They are intriuging, curious, funny little things. There are many other snakes that are similar to garters in this seemingly human-loving behavior. They all have one thing in common. They are visually oriented! A diurnal snake with large eyes and decent eyesight is naturally more curious about us and will become more willing to interact with us once they come to trust us. Look at ball pythons, definitely not what I would call a visually oriented snake. You open the lid to a ball python's cage, and he may eventually peek out at you, but he is not going to dart of of the hide and over to your hands. Snakes learn to trust us simply because we do not eat them or harm them when feeding or handling them. It is simple positive reinforcement that even insects can become accustomed to. It is all trial and error. When baby garters are born, they are downright terrified of us. Depending on the species, they warm up to human interaction within a few weeks, to a few months. That first feeding, you have to be so careful not to scare them off of their food, but after the 5th, the 6th, etc, they will nip at your fingers and take food from your hands. There is no doubt that snakes have the ability to learn what is a threat, what is not a threat, and their opinion of what a threat is can change over the course of their lifetime. Combining the fact that my snakes do not percieve me to be a threat, and the fact that when interacting with me, I may or may not be a source of food at any given time, and in fact, I am their only source of food, the snakes are naturally obliged to take their chances with me! If you kept a snake in an enclosure, but never interacted with it, or directly fed it, such as dropping food in when it wasn't looking, etc, etc.... it would not trust you! Snakes do not naturally trust us, it is a learned behavior, but we should not fool ourselves into thinking it is anything more than that.

I can tell you that so far my flying tree snake takes the cake for interaction. If that snake catches a even a slight glimpse of me from across the room it makes every attempt to "watch" me. Why it is so hellbent on watching me, I am not sure, but it goes out of it's way and climbs higher into the branches to make sure it can see me. I would assume it's a survival strategy so that I can't sneak up on it and eat it. Up close, that snake actually turns and rotates it's head while looking at my hand, or my face, or whatever it's looking at and seems to be truly observing it's surroundings, like a monitor lizard does. It always comes right to me when I open the door, but if I try and get too comfortable, I get whacked every time! I like it! :D

[ConcinusMan]

Sounds like fun!

I don't handle the babies much at all, and they definitely protest and sometimes musk me when I do, but they do come rushing out when I open the top, and they don't seem to be afraid of me. I attribute that to the association with food. They know if that top opens, or I am otherwise near the tank, it must be time to eat. I do catch them watching me... usually when they're hungry! They are drawn to my hands at that time, but if I try to pick them up, they bolt or musk me.

I guess my point is, they can be conditioned to not be afraid, and to associate you with food, independent of actually tolerating handling. As far as them appearing to like "snuggling" I think it's just a combination of three things:

1- they don't perceive you as a threat on sight (they have been conditioned)
2- They are accustom to handling because they have learned you won't hurt them. (again, they need to be conditioned to tolerate handling without feeling threatened)
2- you're nice and warm, and that's comfortable to them

[kibakiba]

I do understand your opinions and I know that believing something doesn't make it true or real. But that is what it is, a belief. A lot of what I said is based off what my friends said. They pretty much said a garter snake has barely half a brain and cannot trust, they cant expect anything from you and they are just running off of an instinct and off fear of me. I don't agree with them.

They've never owned a garter snake nor care anything about them. When I said their brain is too simple for that, that's not what I think, it's what my friend thinks. Like I've said, they do at least seem to be intelligent.

When I say my snakes do something that seems outlandish, they are really doing what I say they do. I add their personality to it and it does make it seem "different" that what they are really doing, since my brain connects their personality and the characteristics I believe them to have with it, even when they don't have them and are doing it for a different reason.

I am at least glad that you guys believe that they are intelligent more than my friends give them credit for. Whether or not they have the feelings I want them to, I'm happy to have my garter snakes in my life. They are the only friends I have that "listen" to me and don't argue. They also respond to me, like poop and twitch their heads. Though usually they just seem interested on exploring my desk while I'm talking. :D

[ConcinusMan]

Just for the record Chantel, I didn't mean to say that they aren't doing what you say they're doing. it's only peoples interpretation as to the "why" they're doing it, and the perception of emotions from them that I question.

Even if I don't believe they "Love" us, it sure as heck doesn't take away from the way I feel about them, or take away from my ability to enjoy having them. They certainly bring us great joy, even if they don't do so intentionally.

[kibakiba]

Sorry about misinterpreting that. There was a lot to read for me just waking up. ;) I do understand what you mean, though.
Whether or not my snakes actually love me or not, doesn't matter because I love them and it makes me happy to take care of them. All of us have opinions and beliefs about things, and I knew I was putting myself in a position where people would disagree with me, but its like if you believe in dragons, unicorns, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, it doesn't make them "real", but to you it is real. Besides, now I can show my friends that a few people believe garters are smart enough to trust.

[ConcinusMan]

Whether or not my snakes actually love me or not, doesn't matter because I love them and it makes me happy to take care of them.

Exactly. :D

[kibakiba]

Part of why I believe they have feelings is because I don't have friends other than online people and the people I meet when getting a ride to my therapist, so it does keep me from being lonely. But anyways, I just wanted some opinions on what other people thought about it, since I was getting frustrated with my friend over my garters being more than a dumb snake.

[ConcinusMan]

They are definitely not dumb!

[kibakiba]

I know. My friends have never owned a garter snake. They're interested in pythons and boas. No matter what I say to them and prove to them with video they still have the nerve to think garter snakes eat nothing but crickets. :rolleyes: I doubt they'll ever learn anything about how amazing garter snakes are. That's okay though, more garters for me.

[ConcinusMan]

Personally, I'm glad garters aren't hugely popular, especially to people that think that way, and to people who want to crossbreed "just to see what happens". I'd rather see garters kept by people like ourselves who understand them and can appreciate them for what they are.

[guidofatherof5]

Personally, I'm glad garters aren't hugely popular, especially to people that think that way, and to people who want to crossbreed "just to see what happens". I'd rather see garters kept by people like ourselves who understand them and can appreciate them for what they are.

Well said.

[kibakiba]

Yeah. I can imagine some of the crosses being pretty looking or "cool" looking, but I'd honestly rather have a very under-popular garter snake than an overbred cornsnake or python.

[infernalis]

I'd rather see garters kept by people like ourselves who understand them and can appreciate them for what they are.


Me too.

People who don't understand are losing out.