The British garter hobby ....

[gregmonsta]

It makes me cringe. I always keep an eye out for giving advice and seeing what's available. Sadly, reptile shops are a constant dissapointment. When you try to offer help with identifying mis-labeled snakes there is usually no response ....
It crops up all the time ... I've contacted shops at least ten times so far and never had a response (although I had one shop hastily change their picture from infernalis to parietalis before).
So, today, on another forum, someone was asking about parietalis availability in the hobby. Suprise, surprise ... another shop potentially using infernalis pictures to sell parietalis and another shop selling 'Northern' garters :rolleyes: (the last time I found a snake selling 'Northern' garters they were Ribbon snakes) ....
Needless to say I've sent enquiries as always .... Maybe this will be a rare occaision where I get some feedback.

[guidofatherof5]

I think they(shop owners) feel they are the experts and refuse to listen to some bloke off the street.
Possible embarrassment is probably the driving force behind the attitude.

[gregmonsta]

The potential negative effects include selling people the wrong snakes, random hybridisation and ruined bloodlines.
There's no progressive attitude - you would think that shops especially would want to be up to date and provide positive ID's for their own sakes as well as the customers.

[guidofatherof5]

I agree but how do you get over the attitudes that block the truth.
I can't think of an approach(personal, letter, email) that will be greeted with an open mind.
Here in the States the same problem lives. Crickets/goldfish as food for garter snakes is a prime example.
The shops I've visited were shocked when I didn't answer crickets when they asked me what I feed my garter snakes.

[Stefan-A]

One online store here sold garters with the name and picture of T. sirtalis fitchi. The picture they used was of a wild specimen and I've seen it elsewhere on the internet as well as in at least one book (Rossman et al.?)

Most garters I've seen for sale have been correctly labeled, but not very accurately. Most of the time, they've gotten the species correct, but it's happened that they haven't been able to determine more than the genus. Apart from that first example, I haven't seen any store try to guess the subspecies.

Needless to say, there haven't been many opportunities to contact shops, because they haven't had any garters for sale. And I do hope none of my garters ever end up in a pet shop.

[Stefan-A]

I think they(shop owners) feel they are the experts and refuse to listen to some bloke off the street.
Possible embarrassment is probably the driving force behind the attitude.
I suspect they get "corrected" by know-it-alls all the time and are simply ignoring everybody as a result.

[guidofatherof5]

I suspect they get "corrected" by know-it-alls all the time and are simply ignoring everybody as a result.

Good point.

[Stefan-A]

Good point.
Thank you.

Clark's Law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clark%27s_Law)
Hanlon's razor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor)

[gregmonsta]

There are actually only two shops that I would ever consider passing snakes to. One has an owner that has kept simils, tetrataenia and concinnus and is fully aware of care requirements (his shop sells CB religiously). The other is where I would have all the input on the care they would be getting in the shop as well as the info passed out to the customers (again a shop that only deals in CB).
At any rate, I will be selling my own surplus privately before anything else.
So many shops are truly archaeic when it comes to Thamnophis care.
Sorry for this thread but I really needed a rant.

[guidofatherof5]

No need to apologize.
We all need to do it once in awhile or more often.:D

[ConcinusMan]

When the petco near my house was selling ribbon snakes, (Simply labeled "Garter Snake") I started to point out that they were actually ribbon snakes, but before I could finish, they were like "yeah, we know, ribbon snake". They're not going to change the label. It's really of no consequence. Since they don't usually offer Latin names with their snakes, it doesn't really matter if they want to call it a garter snake. According to Stefan, they're one in the same. Well, they're not the same in this country. There are garters, and then there are ribbons.

If you ask me, labeling them "garter snake" only hurts their chance of selling them since anyone here can go to a park or wild area and catch their own garter snakes.

Personally, I think it should be a requirement in this country (or any country) for the pet store to know, and list the Latin name of species they sell. Case in point: The pet store at the mall has albino African Clawed Frogs. (Xenopus laevis). Once upon a time, they called them what they were. Now they are illegal to sell or keep. They still sell them but now they just call them "albino domestic frog".

I said "hey, aren't those African..." and the guy stopped me. "shhh" and wink is what I got.

[PINJOHN]

I saw your reference to the shops selling northern garters and wondered if they were the ones possibly, in my neck of the woods, as i recently went across to Manchester where they were advertising garters using that same name, although [even after all my years keeping garters] i am somewhat dubious about my identifying talents, i am reasonably sure that they were sirtalis. they did also have ribbon snakes but i dont know which ones,
in both shops the snakes were hiding away and so were only partially visible
one of the shops were selling radix i told them that they were definitely not radix and that my guess would be perhaps eastern, sirtalis sirtalis

[Mix]

The aquatics centre in Nottingham where I got Lily had a really nice reptile section, and the guy who reserved her for me was fantastic. He knew how to sex them (which not everyone does, apparently), and when I had called to see if they had any garters at all, they knew they were red sideds. They fed them on thiaminase-free fish, gave calcium/vit powder, gave them all a big enough water bowl to get into, and they were in really nice condition. That's why I decided to get her from there, because it was worlds away from all the other places I had called. It wasn't a massive 'commercial' type place, just a small centre - and you could tell that the staff really did care. I just hope it's still the same.
A lot of stores even seemed to be incredibly surprised that anyone could possibly want anything other than a corn! Like 'Garter snakes? What do you want them for? You do know corn snakes are easier?'

[ConcinusMan]

Well, you, others here, and myself know that garters are easy too. Not only that, they have way more personality than any ol' corn snake!:D

[Mix]

I would say that actually getting to see them is a defintite plus! :) I love my feisty little snake.

[gregmonsta]

I saw your reference to the shops selling northern garters and wondered if they were the ones possibly, in my neck of the woods, as i recently went across to Manchester where they were advertising garters using that same name, although [even after all my years keeping garters] i am somewhat dubious about my identifying talents, i am reasonably sure that they were sirtalis. they did also have ribbon snakes but i dont know which ones,
in both shops the snakes were hiding away and so were only partially visible
one of the shops were selling radix i told them that they were definitely not radix and that my guess would be perhaps eastern, sirtalis sirtalis

:rolleyes: The two shops I recently came across were indeed in the Manchester area. I can also say that I've visited them both in the past, 2008, and thought they were good quality shops. Needless to say they didn't have any garter stock at the time and my opinions have dropped somewhat.


The aquatics centre in Nottingham where I got Lily had a really nice reptile section, and the guy who reserved her for me was fantastic. He knew how to sex them (which not everyone does, apparently), and when I had called to see if they had any garters at all, they knew they were red sideds. They fed them on thiaminase-free fish, gave calcium/vit powder, gave them all a big enough water bowl to get into, and they were in really nice condition. That's why I decided to get her from there, because it was worlds away from all the other places I had called. It wasn't a massive 'commercial' type place, just a small centre - and you could tell that the staff really did care. I just hope it's still the same.
A lot of stores even seemed to be incredibly surprised that anyone could possibly want anything other than a corn! Like 'Garter snakes? What do you want them for? You do know corn snakes are easier?'

It's nice when you find shops that care. They're too few and far between. I'll join with you in hoping that it still has enthusiasm for the hobby it serves.

[gregmonsta]

Personally, I think it should be a requirement in this country (or any country) for the pet store to know, and list the Latin name of species they sell.

It should be but at the same time - even that can be done wrong. Some shops won't question importers when their mixed bag of multi-coloured snakes arrives with a scientific name on the bag.
As happened locally with an import of "Thamnophis sauritus". The shop owner didn't care ... the vast majority were proximus sub-species but were fed crickets and sprats and sold as sauritus regardless of my pleas. The blame falls not only on the ignorant shopkeeper but also on the importer (they didn't do their jobs properly either).
Also, you don't get many shop owners that aren't guilty of simply caring for the animals that they care about (or that sell more) and ignoring the specifics with other species.

[gregmonsta]

A mixture of shock and pleasure - :eek::D - I've received a reply from a shop .... in a positive direction .... I will be helping with Thamnophis IDs and they are happy to have assistance. :D

[Mommy2many]

Excellent!

[Mix]

Wow! Great stuff!

[ConcinusMan]

Awesome! Now don't screw it up. :p

If you want second opinions you can always post pics here.;)

[Stefan-A]

A mixture of shock and pleasure - :eek::D - I've received a reply from a shop .... in a positive direction .... I will be helping with Thamnophis IDs and they are happy to have assistance. :D
Don't screw up. :D

[gregmonsta]

:rolleyes: I'll be straight on here at any moment of confuddeldness ;)

[guidofatherof5]

:rolleyes: I'll be straight on here at any moment of confuddeldness ;)

I'm 52 years old and this is the first time I've ever seen this word, let alone used in a sentence.:D
Thanks Greg.

[gregmonsta]

Bamboozylicious :D

[guidofatherof5]

Bamboozylicious :D

Yes, but you never used it in a sentence;)

Is this out of the "Greg Dictionary"

[ConcinusMan]

Fantabulistic!

(OK, I made that one up)

[Mix]

I have been known to say 'fantabulous' :D

[gregmonsta]

Yes, but you never used it in a sentence;)

Is this out of the "Greg Dictionary"

I could do, if I wanted too, in a bamboozylistical way or it could be inferred bamboozylistically if you so prefer :D

[guidofatherof5]

Here's one I'm sick of seeing and hearing:
ginormous :D

[ConcinusMan]

Hey! you spelled it wrong.

[guidofatherof5]

I could do, if I wanted too, in a bamboozylistical way or it could be inferred bamboozylistically if you so prefer :D

I bow to your superioritiness:D

[PINJOHN]

loving the direction this thread has taken i can't remember seeing such a hatchet job on the English language
lets hope there are no lexicographers [who keep garters] :confused: reading it
they will be pulling their hair out :D

[gregmonsta]

Well .... I haven't heard anything since .... and considering how long it took to get in touch in the first place .... it seems as if they were simply trying to placate your favourite Scottish loony .... quite disappointing really ...

[gregmonsta]

Some light entertainment - NE England Snakes for sale now. - Reptile Forums (http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/snake-classifieds/665329-snakes-sale-now.html)

read the price list and follow my attempts to correct.
This, unfortunately, is why I have no wish to buy from a shop.

[Stefan-A]

I could not agree more.

[mustang]

Some light entertainment - NE England Snakes for sale now. - Reptile Forums (http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/snake-classifieds/665329-snakes-sale-now.html)

read the price list and follow my attempts to correct.
This, unfortunately, is why I have no wish to buy from a shop.
whats a texas ribbon snake? it was listed for sale?

[gregmonsta]

whats a texas ribbon snake? it was listed for sale?

Yup ... :rolleyes: listed as such and for sale as such prior to even working out exactly what they are ... unfortunately this is the British trend for shops :o

Yet you don't see them getting milksnakes wrong ... what would a milksnake enthusiast think to an ad that said - Mexico milksnake (Lampropeltis triangulum)
Which 'Mexico' milksnake would this be?

A useless and half-hearted attempt.

An accurate or inaccurate common name still needs a full taxonomic failsafe to know what your getting.
This is really winding me up, as you can probably tell.

Edit - improved milksnake example to match ... grrrrr :p

[chris-uk]

I've dug up another old thread.

I'm loosing faith in our reptile shops. I can't understand why the primary labelling for all stock is not using scientific names. Or wait, is it because the majority of the hobby in UK revolves around royals and corns where the morph-type is the most important selling point?

Having read through this post and checked Greg's link to the RFUK thread, I can now understand his response to me saying that Coast-to-Coast seem to care about garters. Is it a coincidence that each time I've contacted them to ask for photos of infernalis I've been told that they are having IT problems, and that IT problems were brought up in response to Greg last year?
There's got to be a shop somewhere in the UK that really does give a toss. But I'm increasingly feeling that shops selling reptiles aren't something I want to continue to support. There's one in Coventry that I'm still giving the benefit of doubt to, I keep meaning to go in when they're quieter to have a chat and see what they're really like. The times I've been in so far they seem quite knowledgeable from the short conversations I've had - they are small and relatively new to the business, so perhaps they don't have some bad habits of older shops.

What would be really nice would be to find a good shop, that tries to do a good job of representing garters well, and doesn't get things plain wrong.

[EasternGirl]

Here I was thinking Britain was so far ahead of us in the reptile hobby...John sent me those reptile magazines and I was in awe of all of the reptile shops I saw advertised. Pages and pages of reptile shops...wall to wall vivs...so high tech, gorgeous...the shops alone were so high class...carry to car service...well! I've never even seen a reptile shop around here. I've only seen pet stores that maybe have a reptile section, a reptile room if they are really impressive...never nearly as classy as the pictures I have seen in the British magazines...no beautiful wooden and glass vivs custom made in the walls of beautiful shops...just old stinky tanks in old stinky rooms of shops where people usually don't know squat about caring for reptiles....and like you said, boas and pythons and corns...no garters. The pet store that I frequent can't even remember what kind of snakes I own...they always ask me how my corn snakes are doing. But now, I keep hearing from you, John, and Greg about all of this mislabeling of snakes, and shipping large quantities of snakes overseas...it is very disappointing to say the least...

[gregmonsta]

What would be really nice would be to find a good shop, that tries to do a good job of representing garters well, and doesn't get things plain wrong.

The holy grail ... we might as well run into every shop and shout 'Nih' until they beg for mercy :rolleyes:. I do have one single shop that I do like. Its a fair drive from me but they only deal in CB, have good quaranteen practice and, thanks to the owner having owned thamnophis himself as a pet (various species), I would consider them as better than average ... but the CB also means that the only thing they ever have in thamnophis wise is marcianus.


Here I was thinking Britain was so far ahead of us in the reptile hobby...John sent me those reptile magazines and I was in awe of all of the reptile shops I saw advertised. Pages and pages of reptile shops...wall to wall vivs...so high tech, gorgeous...the shops alone were so high class...carry to car service...well!

Books and covers ... I've learned the hard way that most of these 'good-looking' shops are amongst the worst offenders when it comes to dealing in WC and mislabling ... they are 'too busy' to get their facts straight and thamnophis have retained their 'starter'/'throw away'/'smelly'/'not a man's snake'/'etc' stigma that has carried from non-progressive keeping practice in shop-keeping across the board.

[gregmonsta]

The war continues - Garters - which species are these? - Reptile Forums (http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/snakes/821572-garters-species-these.html)

New Livestock Week Of - 20/2/12 - Reptile Forums (http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/blue-lizard-reptiles/816918-new-livestock-week-20-2-a.html)

[chris-uk]

The war continues - Garters - which species are these? - Reptile Forums (http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/snakes/821572-garters-species-these.html)

New Livestock Week Of - 20/2/12 - Reptile Forums (http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/blue-lizard-reptiles/816918-new-livestock-week-20-2-a.html)

Yeah, I waded in with a few posts myself.

I was actually in our local shop today (KBN Reptiles in Coventry, worth mentioning because they are actually quite good) unless they are run off their feet they take the time to talk to you and every viv is labelled with common name, scientific name, and info about the adult size and some basic care stuff.
I'm half hoping that they will pick up the mantle as one of the places to go for a garters. Trouble is supply, the only garters they had on their suppliers list were the same ones that we've been discussing with my parietalis and these threads on RFUK. At least if KBN were selling them they'd be properly labelled. I can't blame them for avoiding these WC "northern garters".

[chris-uk]

I'm still waiting for a response to some questions I emailed to the shop I got Nobby from. A week and no response, so I've emailed again making it clear that I've found my experience with them to be disappointing and asking for a response from the manager/owner.

Is it unreasonable to expect them to reply with information about the last feed, temperatures, and whether she's been de-wormed by the shop or supplier?
And is it unreasonable to expect a shop to tell you that the snake you're about to buy is WC? It wasn't sold as CB, else I'd be really steaming, but if I'd been told it was a WC snake we'd probably still be on 7 snakes rather than 8.

I'm rather regretting buying Nobby, because so far it looks like I just gave money to a shop that doesn't give a rat's sphincter about the garters they sell. And secondly, if I need to de-worm her and get a fecal float done she will start to get to the sort of price that I'd expect to pay for a much less common garter.
I've learnt my lesson here, buy from a shop you have visited more than once and feel good about, or from a breeder/keeper you trust.

It's a shame, because Nobby is a lovely snake, and I don't want to find myself considering her to be a mistake because of the shop I bought her from.

[EasternGirl]

No, it is not at all unreasonable. The fact that they can't even respond to your email is extremely unprofessional. I wouldn't get my hopes up that if they do actually manage to respond to your email, that their answers will be anything less than disappointing. They probably had no idea what they were doing in terms of properly caring for a garter. You have already seen her behaving in a way that suggests that they did not have the heat set up so that she could thermoregulate, so I highly doubt they were feeding her an optimum diet and that they dewormed her. You live and learn...that is all you can take from this...that, and maybe you can look at it like...although you regret the experience of doing business with them, at least you did get a lovely snake out of it and she is now in a good home where she can get the care she deserves.

[chris-uk]

You're spot on Marnie, I don't regret getting a lovely snake, but the shopping experience has left a bad taste in my mouth.

From now on it's planned snake acquisitions only, no spontaneous buying because I see one in a shop and have an empty viv just begging to be filled.

[EasternGirl]

It's tough...I'm sure. I have never seen a garter in a shop...but I have to admit when I go into pet stores...I look. If I saw one, I don't know if I could resist...It would be very, very difficult. Based on experiences I have heard on here, I try to keep myself from even looking in the reptile sections when I go in shops now...better to be safe...keep myself in check.

[ConcinusMan]

The war continues - Garters - which species are these? - Reptile Forums (http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/snakes/821572-garters-species-these.html)

New Livestock Week Of - 20/2/12 - Reptile Forums (http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/blue-lizard-reptiles/816918-new-livestock-week-20-2-a.html)

Anyone a member at those forums? Tell these fools they're parietalis'.:rolleyes: There's no such thing as a damn "northern garter snake":mad: As meaningless as common names are, that one is completely worthless:cool:

Personally, I don't think it should be legal to import, export, or sell the animal without proper species identification. I mean, what's to stop them from collecting a protected species and calling whatever the hell they want to call it? If they can't tell you the proper species name with accuracy, then they shouldn't be in business at all. I have a nagging suspicion that they weren't collected and exported from Canada legally. Wouldn't surprise me one bit if they were shipped on the same boat that carried a million Ecstacy pills and a few tons of Canadian weed to the UK. *RANT OFF*

[ConcinusMan]

Well, the "damage" is done. You already have the snake but surely there's something you can report to someone that can look into this "shop". I think they'll find no documentation that the snakes were legally exported from Canada or imported to the UK legally and proper. I mean, the UK does require some sort of live animal importation protocol doesn't it?

I know that if the importation direction were the other way around, those snakes would never get past US customs and if they got around that, any shop selling them had better provide some kind of proof that the animals come from a legal source.

[indigoman]

Don't the exporters, get checked by animal control to properly identify the items such as snakes that are shipped? Perhaps the labeling N. garters, i'm guessing if too England originates from Canada, makes it easier to ship and the name continues when the shipment arrives.

[ConcinusMan]

I don't know but somethings not right. I don't think Canada would take too kindly to what's happening and surely there's some failure on the UK importation side as well. Clearly this is not legal and only works coming from Canada into the UK or else there would be other (American) species more widely available in the UK.

The most likely scenario is that the snakes are collected and exported from Canada illegally in large numbers. Then somehow, they enter the UK unhindered, with probably more than half arriving dead.:mad:

I would like to see more species variety and numbers of garters available in the UK but not like this.:cool:

[indigoman]

A 2nd thought is if labeled correctly red sided garters which have little or no red then they just label them as northerns, a marketing thing.

[ConcinusMan]

There's too many other clues that point to more than just a marketing thing. It smells of illegal export / import. I've seen plenty of them with the red and they were still called "N. garters" in the UK. As far as I know, Canada doesn't allow the collection and exportation of their wildlife in this manner. U.S. garters can enter Canada legally and without quarantine or much of a hassle. Canadian garters can be collected and kept by Canadians and there is no regulation on moving them about the country. Exporting them in large numbers is an entirely different story.

[indigoman]

I would worry about the confidence of my purchases, and the possibility of hybrids in the markets.

[ConcinusMan]

There is a little hybridizing going on over there between very similar sirtalis subspecies. Furthermore, when the snakes are imported in this manner, they are probably infested with parasites, under extreme stress, and just barely survived at all. They're not going to be in the best of shape. Like I was telling Chris, I would definitely get a fecal exam and / or deworming on that snake. Being parasite free would really help the long term viability of the snake in captivity, considering all it's been through to get to you.

[chris-uk]

I don't think there's illegal importation going on, the distributer they come from supplies a lot of reptile shops and whilst size isn't always a good sign the company will be well on the radar of animal health officers.
They can't import without identifying the species, I believe that the id doesn't have to be to subspecies level.

The one I've got will be getting a vet check next weekend. She fed for the first time today, so I take that as a good sign.

I do agree that the labelling is likely to be a marketing thing, knowing some of the idiots who will be asking stupid questions in reptile shops, I can see that labelling them as red-sided garter snakes when they don't have red sides would be a big hassle. They'd have more people complaining about the correctly labelled snakes than the few people who complain that "northern garter" isn't a correct common name.

Greg's been complaining for years, I've just joined the campaign.

[ConcinusMan]

Well I hope you're right about the collecting and importation being legal but I still have concerns about the fact that they are WC and I'm sure many don't make it before reaching the market considering that they just catch and ship them. What I don't understand is why they don't just call them "thamnophis sirtalis" or "common garter snake". That would be correct regardless of the subspecies.

[Stefan-A]

Greg's been complaining for years, I've just joined the campaign.
I'd be joing the campaign, but who am I kidding, I'm the only one selling garters in this part of the world.

[Natrix]

What we need in this country is a small network of dedicated breeders who keep records,provide care sheets, friendly advice and support, Sell their surplus stock either privately to individuals and trade like for like between themselves when the need for a new bloodline arises. OR to shops who have both a good reputation and are knowledgable. The cost of importing from the states is around $1000 USD (£634) Just for shipping and Gov. paper work. So unless there are an awful lot of snakes coming in one shippment it can't be cost effective. So where are these garters comimg from? It makes sense for UK breeders to import stock from EU from different breeders so that the UK gene pool remains strong. Changing the way shops market there live products will take some doing.

[kimbosaur]

There's too many other clues that point to more than just a marketing thing. It smells of illegal export / import. I've seen plenty of them with the red and they were still called "N. garters" in the UK. As far as I know, Canada doesn't allow the collection and exportation of their wildlife in this manner. U.S. garters can enter Canada legally and without quarantine or much of a hassle. Canadian garters can be collected and kept by Canadians and there is no regulation on moving them about the country. Exporting them in large numbers is an entirely different story.

I'm not sure what the laws in Manitoba are, but in Ontario, we're not even allowed to collect garters without a permit.

[ConcinusMan]

I'd be joing the campaign, but who am I kidding, I'm the only one selling garters in this part of the world.

What a pioneer you are. Don't you feel special? :p I still find it shocking that I am apparently the only one to ever offer blue phase anery concinnus' anywhere. Still can't believe it. Hard to believe that color phase was largely unknown or non-existent in the hobby before 2009. They've been known to locals for many decades.:cool:

[Stefan-A]

What a pioneer you are. Don't you feel special? :p
I feel special in the other kind of way, for breeding members of a genus that there's apparently no demand for.

[gregmonsta]

I bet you can guess what my 'favourite' shop has been selling .... yup .... Northern garters.

I did a bit of prompting about ID and offered assistance. The reply I got is as follows -

"Many thanks for the information, but we have enough identification required for the basic identification of the species.
Thank you for your offer but due to the fact most are now sold now, we would not require further assistance."

.... NOT IMPRESSED

A visit is in order.

[guidofatherof5]

The wrong identification is what they are willing to accept. Very sad.
Give me there phone number. I'll give them a call.:D

[gregmonsta]

I may do that once I have been there :rolleyes: ... I'll certainly link it here once it becomes relevant. It's the same shop where I was previously told I was being rude about comments on their forum and on RFUK.

[EasternGirl]

What the heck is a northern garter? I'm sorry but I have never heard of that species. Are there also southern garters that I am unaware of? Maybe they will start selling spotty garters and and dark garters....maybe they can call albinos pink garters....it will attract the ladies to buy them. Come get yourself a pretty pink garter to match your shoes...

[Stefan-A]

10,200 results on Google for "northern garter snake". Sent messages to three pet stores today before I got bored and gave up.

[gregmonsta]

10,200 results on Google for "northern garter snake". Sent messages to three pet stores today before I got bored and gave up.

Limit the search to UK only and I get 2,690 results .... including and absolute cracker - "red scaled northern garter and set up for sale" :rolleyes:
I'm only interested in hounding the shops .... but I'm starting to run out of steam on that front ... still ... some of the other UK forums are certainly more aware since this mission started. :o

[gregmonsta]

What the heck is a northern garter? I'm sorry but I have never heard of that species. Are there also southern garters that I am unaware of? Maybe they will start selling spotty garters and and dark garters....maybe they can call albinos pink garters....it will attract the ladies to buy them. Come get yourself a pretty pink garter to match your shoes...

Gimme six spotties and a southern dark please .... do I get a free unicorn with that? :rolleyes:

P.S. Albino checkereds got the title of 'Golden garters' here, back in the day ... don't they just sound magical?

[gregmonsta]

Told these guys they were wrong weeks ago :rolleyes: - Northern Garter Snake - Snakes - Livestock - Blue Lizard Reptiles - Reptile Shop (http://www.bluelizardreptiles.co.uk/livestock/snakes/9632150000510)

Moaned at these guys before ... I've noticed they're coming round to the idea (ish) - Snake price list (http://www.coasttocoast.co.uk/snakesinstock.html)

Just hit these guys up - fish and fins, uk - Seio water pump (http://www.fishandfins.co.uk/reptile-livestock.htm)

etc, ad infinitum.

[EasternGirl]

Gimme six spotties and a southern dark please .... do I get a free unicorn with that? :rolleyes:

P.S. Albino checkereds got the title of 'Golden garters' here, back in the day ... don't they just sound magical?

That made me laugh out loud...So do golden garters perhaps lay golden eggs? Maybe if your garter lays a golden egg you get a prize!

[gregmonsta]

Scroll down for some 'fun' :rolleyes: - www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/general-herp-chat/156982-exotic-pets-co-uk-feedback-64.html (http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/general-herp-chat/156982-exotic-pets-co-uk-feedback-63.html-) of course I had to continue this in public due to the fact that my enquiry through their site was dealt with in a 'no-reply' format.

I've been a bit busy for this type of behaviour but, unfortunately for them, I'm subscribed to updates on any and all garters that they sell ...

A bit of history - I actually bought a checkered garter from them in 2007 (which got me back into the hobby after a break). I corrected them before when they were advertised normal checkereds for sale at what seemed a ridiculous price ... turned out they were selling albinos, they appreciated the correction then. I offered them use of my caresheet for use by them on their site a while back, which they happily accepted, of course.

This is your typical 'Northern' garter advert - Northern Garter Snake - Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis

P.S. If the initial link doesn't take you to the thread it is in the 'General Herp chat' section and the thread is called 'Exotic-Pets.co.uk - feedback
(http://www.exotic-pets.co.uk/northern-garter-snake.html)

[chris-uk]

The old "Northern Garter" chestnut again. I added a reply to RFUK as well.

[ConcinusMan]

Due to their label of "northern garter" I can't even believe them when they say it's a T. sirtalis sirtalis. I don't think they have a clue what they have.

[gregmonsta]

Well ... they added a picture - Northern Garter Snake - Northern Garter Snake (http://www.exotic-pets.co.uk/image/372/1497)

[chris-uk]

Well ... they added a picture - Northern Garter Snake - Northern Garter Snake (http://www.exotic-pets.co.uk/image/372/1497)

Nice "Northern Garter"... I'd be very surprised if they managed to supply a "Northern" with that much red. :)

[guidofatherof5]

Yeah, Northern as they range North:D

[-MARWOLAETH-]

I saw a shop selling parientalis but using a pic of a terrestis ...tut tut

[ConcinusMan]

Yes, but one is a subspecies of T. sirtalis (common garter) and the other is a subspecies of T. elegans (western terrestrial garter). Wow.


Yeah, Northern as they range North:D

Maybe that's enough.:rolleyes:

Heck, I see almost any garter with red on it's sides being called "red sided" garter all the time. Yes, it's a red sided. Only in that it has red on it's sides! LoL.

When it boils right down to it, common names can be any dang thing you want to call them. My entire collection consists of just ribbon snakes. There. Don't argue with me.:p

They could call it a "striped snake" and still be right. At least "garter" in there somewhere.

[-MARWOLAETH-]

Good example of a made up name is Taricha granulosa,in captivity it's labeled Oregon newt eventhough it doesn't range in Oregon and it's real common name is rough skinned newt

[ConcinusMan]

Or California newt. ;). And I think you meant to say that it doesn't range exclusively in Oregon.

EDIT: My mistake. California newt (also called red bellied newt) is Taricha torosa. It is found exclusively in CA. Doesn't seem to stop people from calling Taricha granulosa a california newt though. They do look pretty much the same.

[-MARWOLAETH-]

I meant that Oregon doesn't allow collection of that species so instead they're collected from California.

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah, and I suppose that they sometimes end up getting Taricha granulosa and Taricha torosa when they collect.

Which brings up something else. I've even seen T. radix listed as "northern garter" by European sellers/importers. They're probably getting them all from he same "northern" location and just don't recognize that they have two different species.

[-MARWOLAETH-]

What is it with us Brits and parientalis?! In PKR magazine they labeled pic of them as T.s.infernalis

[chris-uk]

What is it with us Brits and parientalis?! In PKR magazine they labeled pic of them as T.s.infernalis

Well... they both have "Red-sided" in their common name. And if the shops that sell them can't be arsed to get the identification right we can't expect a jounalist - the author probably went to a shop to check they had the name right for the photo.

Misidentification of infernalis and parietalis in a magazine is particularly bad because people tend to trust what is printed and therefore this will propagate the issue.

[ConcinusMan]

Well... they both have "Red-sided" in their common name.

Then what's the excuse for confusing "red spotted" and "red sided" . Is it just because they both have "red" in their name? ridiculous. Besides that, I think it's a bad habit that people call them "red spotted". They've always been called "oregon red spotted" to me but people keep dropping the "oregon" part, making it even easier to confuse them with "red sided". Same with infernalis/parietalis common names. One is "California red sided" the other simply "red sided".


Misidentification of infernalis and parietalis in a magazine is particularly bad because people tend to trust what is printed and therefore this will propagate the issue.

It's all over the internet too which makes it even worse and it's not just "the brits" doing it. People here in the states will post pictures of a snake with red spots on it, and misidentify it as a different snake with red spots on it. It's particularly irritating to me when they know the locality of the snake they're showing and if they bothered to check the distribution range, they would know it couldn't be the snake they are claiming it to be. Even worse is that there is a lot of that out there and no way to contact the poster or website creator to inform them of their mistake so thousands of people end up viewing it and believing it is one snake when it is in fact another. This leads people using the internet as a I.D. tool, to be misled, perpetuating even more misidentification.

[chris-uk]

There are few websites I would trust the photos on enough to identify a garter. Don't we have a photographic identification chart on thamnophis.com somewhere?

[guidofatherof5]

I believe it's somewhere with the old software version.

[ConcinusMan]

There are few websites I would trust the photos on enough to identify a garter. Don't we have a photographic identification chart on thamnophis.com somewhere?

We used to have a photographic library but it was hardly visited and mostly incomplete. Now I can't even find it since the software upgrade.

[chris-uk]

Of all places thamnophis.com should be able to produce a definitive species guide.

[guidofatherof5]

If we(forum) are going to do one I would like to see identification information(scale count, etc.) along with photos. It should be uniform throughout.
We should have uniformed fields to be filled out.
I will do all I can to help.
Just my thoughts on the matter.

[gregmonsta]

Of course, there are no guarantees that importers and shops will even look at it if referred to this, but it should be done. Time to build a photographic library again!!!

[gregmonsta]

Hilarious .... not - Preloved | northern garter snakes for sale in Prestwich, Greater Manchester (http://www.preloved.co.uk/adverts/show/107127608/northern-garter-snakes.html)

[Natrix]

Hilarious .... not - Preloved | northern garter snakes for sale in Prestwich, Greater Manchester (http://www.preloved.co.uk/adverts/show/107127608/northern-garter-snakes.html)
Correct me if I am wrong but that's a Ribbon is it not? :confused:

[guidofatherof5]

You are not wrong. Good eye.;)

Looks like Thamnophis sauritus sauritus- Eastern Ribbon Snake to me.

[Darlo]

I thought that too, but I also think they have used a 'stock photo and therefore that isn't the actual snake for sale - in other words the ad is doubly inaccurate! Who knows what species they actually have!?

[gregmonsta]

I've actually approached the same shop in the past - they were advertising WC parietalis but using a picture of infernalis to advertise them ... I never got a reply to that e-mail ...

[ConcinusMan]

Wow, those northern garters sure are variable! :rolleyes:

[ConcinusMan]

I've actually approached the same shop in the past - they were advertising WC parietalis but using a picture of infernalis to advertise them ... I never got a reply to that e-mail ...

I see countless pics of infernalis' identified as "red sided- T.s. parietalis" and unfortunately most of them provide no contact info. I often also see a pic of parietalis identified as "CA red sided" too, or just "red sided- T.s. infernalis" And don't even get me started on a recent ad I saw. Pic was an anery parietalis originally purchased from Scott but advertised as "anery oregon red sided" but they didn't even spell "Oregon" correctly. LoL (and the tank it was in had more feces than substrate)

[chris-uk]

I've actually approached the same shop in the past - they were advertising WC parietalis but using a picture of infernalis to advertise them ... I never got a reply to that e-mail ...

I was going to ask if they'd heard from you in the past. Viper and Vine have continuous ads on Preloved, got to wonder about a business that does that.

[guidofatherof5]

Here's the photo used in the ad. Western Ribbon - T.proximus proximus not Eastern.
Thanks Steve Schimdt for tracking down the original photo.
Ribbon Snakes - <i>Thamnophis sauritus</i> and <i>Thamnophis proximus</i>/P1060892 (http://www.herp-pix.org/thamnophis3/slides/P1060892.htm)

[Darlo]

Here's the photo used in the ad. Western Ribbon - T.proximus proximus not Eastern.
Thanks Steve Schimdt for tracking down the original photo.
Ribbon Snakes - <i>Thamnophis sauritus</i> and <i>Thamnophis proximus</i>/P1060892 (http://www.herp-pix.org/thamnophis3/slides/P1060892.htm)

I like your detective skills...

[-MARWOLAETH-]

I see countless pics of infernalis' identified as "red sided- T.s. parietalis" and unfortunately most of them provide no contact info. I often also see a pic of parietalis identified as "CA red sided" too, or just "red sided- T.s. infernalis" And don't even get me started on a recent ad I saw. Pic was an anery parietalis originally purchased from Scott but advertised as "anery oregon red sided" but they didn't even spell "Oregon" correctly. LoL (and the tank it was in had more feces than substrate)The worst one I saw was on an RFUK thread that Chris messaged me about .The bloke was asking if there where any red oregon chequered garters available! LoL

[Darlo]

Seeing as though we have been talking about Viper and Vine and their lack of accuracy when it comes to displaying stock photos I've just noticed that the cheeky things have actually used a personal photo of my lygodactylus geckos to advertise as their own on their Facebook page.

[chris-uk]

Seeing as though we have been talking about Viper and Vine and their lack of accuracy when it comes to displaying stock photos I've just noticed that the cheeky things have actually used a personal photo of my lygodactylus geckos to advertise as their own on their Facebook page.

Cheeky gits. Hope they're getting a phone call or email to tell them to use their own photo.

[CrazyHedgehog]

I went to Viper and Vine recently, his 'red sided' garters were hiding their red very well that day!
(however, the two dozen mice we bought to start our breeding process off are doing very well!)
:D

[Darlo]

Cheeky gits. Hope they're getting a phone call or email to tell them to use their own photo.

Oh a blunt and rather sarcastic email was sent to them promptly!

[chris-uk]

I went to Viper and Vine recently, his 'red sided' garters were hiding their red very well that day!
(however, the two dozen mice we bought to start our breeding process off are doing very well!)
:D

At least he had them labelled as "Red-sided Garter" rather than "Northern Garters". Although, could you tell whether they were actually parietalis?

[Darlo]

The photo has now been removed and replaced with their 'own' image.

[guidofatherof5]

The photo has now been removed and replaced with their 'own' image.

Good job. Keep them honest ;)

[chris-uk]

The photo has now been removed and replaced with 'some other stolen' image.

I made an amendment which may be more accurate. ;)