My injured snake..

[Hankj]

Here is the front of his head, you can notice some missing scales.
http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/3227/frontofhead.png

Here is the right side of his head where the majority of the damage is. He has no eye there at all, and you can see redness.
http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/1768/rightsideofhead.png

This is the left side. The eye looks very black indoors, looked red when I caught it and it is hard to tell if its there or covered up, and this pic is no exception, hard to say..
http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/9293/leftsideofhead.png

This picture is to see if you guys could tell me what gender "he" might be
http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/9425/gendercheck.png

We were kind of having some focusing issues as we were some what rushing.

[Hankj]

Btw for anyone that doesn't know...

I found him on the bike path new years day. We had a bit of a heat way new years eve so I'm thinking he came out of brumation during this time. It was 45 degrees out when I found him and he seemed very lethargic so I decided to take him in.. He was active at first now he just typically coils up and naps or something. Still hasn't eaten.

[Hankj]

Actually he is quite active now after his photoshoot. Maybe he just needed a three day slumber haha.

[guidofatherof5]

You've got a female there.
Looks like some severe head trauma. You said you found her on a bike path. In that case the injury could have been from a bike tire.
Keep her warm and sheltered. In this situation I think a Vet. visit would be nice but I'm not sure what a Vet. could do for her.
I think time will tell whether she makes it or not.
Has she eaten anything at all?
My prayers go out to you. Thanks for taking the time to intervene on her behalf. I wish her well.
Keep us posted.

[gregmonsta]

Poor thing. That really is quite something for her to have to recover from. I hope she picks up for you but you never know. The injury may be evident in the mouth too and be a possible problem for feeding.
Like Steve said ... time will tell with this one.

[Hankj]

She has not eaten. But I was told it takes a few weeks to eat after they come out of brumation. I would predict she came out of brumation new years eve or the day before. The bike path was not very crowded that day, but it is very possible that she was ran over, I almost ran her over : x

[guidofatherof5]

Please keep us posted.
We are all pulling for your snake.

[Hankj]

Today someone wanted to meet her so I was holding her and she was being pretty calm but she was making a noise I have not heard from her before. I'm guessing it was a hiss? But that is not the right onomatopoeia it was more like a "pfff" I heard it twice when I was holding her.

When I put her in the take I saw her go to the water for the first time without me encouraging it. She put her whole body in there, not at the same time, but more like slithering through it haha. She even slipped in at one point and kind of panicked, you could see air bubbles coming out. The water is only 3 inches deep maybe.

While she was wading I heard her make the noise again and open her mouth and being real active. I offered her a night crawler, from my hand just kind of dangled it in front of her and she wasn't interested.

Is this noise unusual or mean anything?

[Mommy2many]

Her injury appears to be significant. Hopefully she will pull thru for you. Keep temps up and offer food frequently. Please keep us informed.

[EasternGirl]

Have you tried chopping up the worms into small pieces for her? Try chopping them up into small pieces and putting them on a dish so that she doesn't feel anxious about taking them from you. I know that Richard always encourages hand feeding...but maybe in this case, because she is injured, you should just see if you can get her to eat at all...then worry about getting her to eat from you. Selena wouldn't eat whole worms or pinkies...she eats them in pieces..plus, if your snake has a mouth injury, she might need smaller bites. I really hope she makes it...and I think it's wonderful that you are trying to help her. The noise she made was probably a hiss. Richard...correct me if I'm wrong about the feeding.

[guidofatherof5]

Today someone wanted to meet her so I was holding her and she was being pretty calm but she was making a noise I have not heard from her before. I'm guessing it was a hiss? But that is not the right onomatopoeia it was more like a "pfff" I heard it twice when I was holding her.

When I put her in the take I saw her go to the water for the first time without me encouraging it. She put her whole body in there, not at the same time, but more like slithering through it haha. She even slipped in at one point and kind of panicked, you could see air bubbles coming out. The water is only 3 inches deep maybe.

While she was wading I heard her make the noise again and open her mouth and being real active. I offered her a night crawler, from my hand just kind of dangled it in front of her and she wasn't interested.

Is this noise unusual or mean anything?

Could be part of her injury.
I think you have a long road ahead of you and I want to thank you again for taking the time with her.

[Hankj]

Now I will try to chop it up and even try some live guppies tomorrow. but it's only been a week and a half that she came out of brumation, should I be getting disappointed if she's still not eating?

[guidofatherof5]

Not at all at this point in the game.;)
The injury is the main concern.

[Hankj]

What can I do for the injury? I think the lamp I got her only gets the temp to the upper 70s.. should I buy a heat mat for her also?

[guidofatherof5]

What can I do for the injury? I think the lamp I got her only gets the temp to the upper 70s.. should I buy a heat mat for her also?

I would recommend it.
Raising the temp will help the healing process.
I think your hands are tied when it comes to this head injury. Your doing the best you can for her.
Does she have any other areas on her body. My concern is that she may have been run over more then once.
When she moves does it appear shes able to control her movement?

[Hankj]

I haven't noticed anything very concerning on the other parts of her body, some marks but nothing that looks bad like her head. I'll check tomorrow when I get home.

I rode on the path for 45 minutes and then turned around, I found her on my way back, probably about 20 minutes on my way back. I didn't notice her on my way out, but doesn't mean I couldn't have missed her. The bike path wasn't crowded though, it was chilly.

And she does seem to have pretty good control of herself, I think. Should she be able slither up the side of the tank? Because she can only get about half way and she falls down the side. I have seen her move around and climb and she doesn't seem to clumsy, but I am new to snakes. Except, on the water bowl today she seemed clumsy, but that could have been because it is a plastic bowl and she was wet, yeah?

[guidofatherof5]

This type of injury could be a slow healing thing.

[Hankj]

How long can she go without eating?

[guidofatherof5]

Garter snakes can go months in some situation(brumation/drought) but you have a different situation all together.
This snake needs to eat to provide fuel to repair the injuries.
Stay grounded in the fact that she may not make it but hope for the best.
She is in our prayers here in Iowa.
I would work at upping the heat to 80-83 degrees. This will allow her to choose the warm spot when she needs to.
Be careful that a bottom heater doesn't get to hot as she may not be able to sense the heat as well because of the head injury.
You may also see if you can find a reptile Vet. in your area that might donate some time to her. Many Vets. understand the whole money situation and the fact it's a wild snake. If the laws won't allow them to treat her they give you some advice in the area of treatment.
It's worth a few phone calls.

[EasternGirl]

Yes...Steve said it best..I would try to call a vet and at least get some advice. Steve, maybe you could repost that link for reptile vets for Hankj. I wouldn't worry too much about her not being able to slither up the tank...Selena only gets half way up and then falls down too...I think they just can't get up that far. If she is crawling around and stuff, that is good. But you do have to prepare yourself...because you have no idea of knowing the full extent of her injuries. It is so wonderful that you are trying to help her though. Make sure that you have a good amount of substrate above the heat pad so she doesn't get burned...and that she has a cool side of the tank to retreat to. Keep us informed...my prayers are with you too.

[guidofatherof5]

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/general-talk/8045-herp-vet-finder.html

[Spankenstyne]

Good on you for doing your best to help this snake. Hope it pulls through.


What can I do for the injury? I think the lamp I got her only gets the temp to the upper 70s.. should I buy a heat mat for her also?

You'll want to know for sure before making too many changes though. You don't want to be guessing and accidently "cook" your captive by making the whole place too warm. Get an infra red temp gun or a probe or something to accurately get the hotspot temps and adjust as needed. You'd be surprised how warm the basking spots can be without the ambient being too noticeably warm. For a snake that's healing you'll want the warm spot on the upper range of appropriate temps to keep the immune system jacked up and the body healing.

[Hankj]

Thank you.

I came home today with a heat pad and some guppies and she was actively moving around. I put a guppie and a blue lid but it jumped out so I just tossed it in the snakes clear water bowl. I also chopped up a night crawler and served it to her on a lid. She hasn't paid any interest in them but is still very active :)

I know there is a vet around here that sees reptiles, an associate at a pet store told me about it. I'll try to find them on that list and call them up!

[Hankj]

I don't have anything that fancy but I have a reptile thermometer directly on the hot spot.

[Hankj]

I couldn't find that vet on the list but I called the pet store and they gave me the number. I just called them and they said $42 for an exam but she's gonna have a technician call me and give me some advice for free.

[Spankenstyne]

I don't have anything that fancy but I have a reptile thermometer directly on the hot spot.

Should be close enough.

Are you leaving the food in there & the snake alone for some time? I'd leave it be overnight with the food as you may have a shy eater (if you haven't already). Sometimes when trying to help we'll be counterproductive by trying to do too much & not giving it some down time.

[Hankj]

Well the worms dry up pretty quick. I'll leave it in there if you think it will be alright? I did leave the fish in there and the worm parts still is but I had planned on removing it.

[Spankenstyne]

A couple of drops of water might help but longer than overnight and it gets stinky in a hurry. I clean it up the next morning no matter what's left.

[guidofatherof5]

Dried worms can cause a blockage, I would remove it.
Is she doing any tongue flicking?

[Spankenstyne]

Yeah if it's already dried up then definitely remove it. I meant to add a drop or two of water when originally offering the food (just to clarify).

[Hankj]

Okay. But its okay to have the fish over night in her water bowl?

And yes she flicks her tongue a lot.

[guidofatherof5]

Tongue flicking is a very good sign. That's great.
Fish overnight shouldn't be a problem.
Can you get a weight on her? If so, you can track it to see if she starts losing too much.
You may be forced to assist feed her.
I'm very encouraged to hear about the tongue flicking. I think that's a good sign that there wasn't any/too much brain damage.
Have you seen her open her mouth(yawn). This would be great also. This might be a sign that her jaw structure is working.
Please keep in mind I am not a Vet. but only a concerned laymen with what I see as commonsense observations and advice.;)

[Hankj]

I have seen her yawn several times. The opening of her mouth was kind of slow and at one session of yawning I noticed her right side was opening slower than her right side.

A very old sounding man from the vet called me back, he was kind of hard to understand but told me if I brought her in they might put her on some medication (topical or injection) and check for parasites and show me how to force feed her. Told me I might be running in the price range of $150-200. I don't know if I can spend that much money on her sadly.

[guidofatherof5]

I have seen her yawn several times. The opening of her mouth was kind of slow and at one session of yawning I noticed her right side was opening faster than her right side.

A very old sounding man from the vet called me back, he was kind of hard to understand but told me if I brought her in they might put her on some medication (topical or injection) and check for parasites and show me how to force feed her. Told me I might be running in the price range of $150-200. I don't know if I can spend that much money on her sadly.

Totally understandable.
Not sure if the parasite check is needed at this point, you have more pressing issues.
You might call the guy back and see what they might charge just for an evaluation of her injuries.
Keep up the good work on her behalf.
Any name yet? If not, I understand.

[Hankj]

An exam is $45, without the fecal exam he mentioned.. yet I don't know how you can do a fecal exam if she isn't eating but I didn't push it..

I have not named her I imagine I'll name her the first day she eats =).

Do you think I could write the doctor a sob letter explaining the situation and see if I can get him to see her for free. Tell him how I rescued her and am only in high school, attending college next year?

[gregmonsta]

It's worth a try. It's without a doubt that the damage is quite extensive. I have a feeling that a lot of vets would possibly consider this a dead end.
I don't like how they're instantly considering forcefeeding. Forcefeeding is very stressful and could potentially aggravate this injury.
Perservere with her a while longer. You're providing her with the best environment for recovery. Keep offering food. I'll be crossing my fingers for her ;)

[guidofatherof5]

An exam is $45, without the fecal exam he mentioned.. yet I don't know how you can do a fecal exam if she isn't eating but I didn't push it..

I have not named her I imagine I'll name her the first day she eats =).

Do you think I could write the doctor a sob letter explaining the situation and see if I can get him to see her for free. Tell him how I rescued her and am only in high school, attending college next year?

I'll send $20 for her.
It would be my honor to help.
She's a good investment.;)

[Hankj]

The vet isn't hurting for money by any means, it's been there for ever and is kind of fancy looking from the outside. I was reading some reviews on the doctor and one said he didn't seem to care as much, kind of sarcastic and doesn't look like he wants to be there, but was a great doctor so idk how much the sob letter will do. I'll try it though and if they don't drop the price I'll fork up the money and that would be very appreciated guidofatherof5, I'll make sure to show a receipt as proof.

The man I talked to was referred to as a "technician" and not the vet. He was saying we might need to force feed because her bio clock might be a little off because she came out of brumation early.

Today I am very optimistic about her because she is so active I think = ), but this is just a feeling I have.

[guidofatherof5]

It'll go out in the mail on Tuesday.
Thanks for letting me help.;)

[Hankj]

Hehe you're welcome ;).

It looks like with the lamp and the heat pad it gets to about 90 degrees in the hot spot. Is this too hot? My substrate is just an ecocarpet.

[guidofatherof5]

Your paypal account worked great. You should have the money I sent.
Best of luck with your friend.
She is in our prayers.

[ConcinusMan]

Hehe you're welcome ;).

It looks like with the lamp and the heat pad it gets to about 90 degrees in the hot spot. Is this too hot? My substrate is just an ecocarpet.

Not too hot for my T.s. concinnus'. They will often spend most of the day at a 90 degree spot. Considering your snake is on the mend, 90 degrees is probably a good thing but just make sure there's a cool area (upper 70's at most) away from the light to retreat to. If your snake seems to hang out on the cool end most of the time, you might want to consider less heat.

[Hankj]

Okay great =) and yes I got a confirmation email, thanks again! Gonna send the letter to the vet before I run off to work too!

Thanks connicusman. I think she is eastern or common, can you guys tell from the pictures?

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah, she's a T.s. sirtalis. Eastern garter. Just for clarification, any T. sirtalis is considered "common garter". Yours is the Eastern garter. Mine are Oregon Red Spotted garters, but both of our snakes are "common garters" just different subspecies.

When a garter is sick or healing, keeping them very warm at around 90 degrees helps with their immune system and healing. It's common practice to increase their heat to help them get better.

[Hornets23]

Looks pretty rough, but good luck with her!

[Hankj]

The fish is still alive haha.

I turned in a application to Superpetz and got interviewed on the spot, kind of excited about that =). While I was there I bought some frozen pinkies. I'm about to cut into one and offer that to her.

[guidofatherof5]

Fingers crossed.
Keep us posted.

[Hankj]

She felt a lot warmer today, so she is taking advantage of the extra warmth. She did not go for the half pinkie though. I bought some salmon while I was out, I'll try that tomorrow.

Should I leave the guppy in there? Maybe change the water and keep the guppy in there? Or should I just put the guppy back in the bowl with the other feeders?

[guidofatherof5]

I'd save the guppy for another time. Your call though.

Has she been drinking water?
Dehydration might be a serious concern if she not drinking.
You may need to monitor some soaking/drinking time.
She can go along time without food but water is more imperative.

[Hankj]

I mean I can't monitor her at all times so I don't know how much she's really drank and or soaked. Should I be encouraging it and trying to put her in the water?

[guidofatherof5]

I mean I can't monitor her at all times so I don't know how much she's really drank and or soaked. Should I be encouraging it and trying to put her in the water?

I would say, yes.

[Hankj]

Okay before bed I'll change the water and put her near it.

[guidofatherof5]

If she's thirsty and can drink, putting her head in the water will trigger a drinking response.
Hopefully she's able to drink. Don't leave her unattended in the water.
If she does start drinking don't let her drink very much since she has a head injury. I'd say 30 seconds should be enough if she starts.
Thirsty snake many times drink too much and throw it up.
Best of luck.

[Hankj]

So I went in there and picked up and tried to put her in the water and she was resisting a lot haha. She started to squirm and get away from me. Then I changed the water and I picked her back up and she was much calmer and let me put her head in the water. It didn't look like she was drinking though, just holding her breath. Maybe she was afraid of the guppy haha.

And this morning I picked her up before school and was very squirmy again, I think it was because I woke her up and picked her up right away.

I'm about to try the salmon.

[guidofatherof5]

I'm pretty confident she's not afraid of the guppy.;)

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah, really. A predator afraid of it's prey. Now that would be a snake with a serious problem.

[kibakiba]

Well, Squirt was afraid of a larger wiggly worm... Any time it moved he hid and wouldn't eat it. It wasn't that much larger than the ones I normally feed him.

[Hankj]

I didn't think she actually was afraid of it lol!

She isn't touching the salmon either.

[guidofatherof5]

[QUOTE=Hankj;150677] Maybe she was afraid of the guppy haha.
QUOTE]

That's my fault.
I didn't see the "haha" after your sentence;)

[Hankj]

We just had a bit of a tussle..

I was putting up a shelf above her tank and realized dry wall was falling in on her, I put a blanket over the tank and finished the job. Then, not thinking, I just picked the blanket up and rained the drywall down on her. So I decided to open up the tank and remove everything and I was gonna shake out the ecocarpet. Then I picked her up and she didn't like that. She was by the water bowl so she was wet, so lots of water. She's squirming around trying her hardest to get away from. She really didn't want to be held! She's never been like that before, it seemed kind of violent lol.

Then she pooped on me! I think it was poop. It was yellow and kind of fluffy/watery. Poop and not musk right? Or is this even normal at all? I then held her with one hand while I grabbed a little plastic tank to put her down in. But while I was grabbing the plastic tank she was pretty calm..

While she was in the plastic tank and I was cleaning up the mess I threw a worm in there to see if she would eat again and no luck.

[kibakiba]

Musk can have poop come out with it. I haven't seen yellow fluffy/watery poop or musk ever but I'm sure another forum member could tell you what it was.
Normally after being scared to death and unhappy they refuse food. If I were to hold Snap before feeding her, she wouldn't take any food, no matter how hungry she is.

[Hankj]

Well I'm kind of thinking this is a good sign.

A wild snake shouldn't be real calm like she has been and let me hold her right away? Maybe she's coming back to her senses and starting to act more like a wild snake in captivity. The musk could also be a sign of her acting like a normal snake. She's been very active today too.

[guidofatherof5]

Good observation.
Hoping she'll eat soon.

[Hankj]

What do you think the best time to feed her is or how I should go about doing it?

Should I wait til she wakes up? Should I wake her up when I put it in? Should I handle her or put the food in her face? Should I just slip it in there when I wake up and let her find it when she wakes up? Any way better than the other??

[guidofatherof5]

You just need to try it all in the hopes it will work.
If she has a favorite hide, put the food on a small dish and set it under the hide
Garter snakes are diurnal(active during daylight) so feeding during the daylight hours is optimal.
With that being said I've also observed many T.radixes out well after dark hunting night crawlers in my backyard.
At some point you may have to try assisted feeding if she won't on her own.
That's a call you will have to make. Keeping in mind that your efforts may be counter productive in that her injuries may be so severe that living without assistance isn't possible.
You do know something, in that if she never eats she will die. So force feeding her may be your only choice to give her a chance at life.
You are in a tough position with this snake and I don't envy some of the decisions you may have to make.
I do appreciate your time and efforts towards her. Thank you.

[Hankj]

Oh you're welcome and thanks for all the help.

I am willing to force feed her if it comes down to it. I have a buddy that is willing to be the extra hand too lol. But when is the time to start force feeding? Three weeks? A month? I've had her in my care for two weeks, today.

[guidofatherof5]

You don't ask any easy questions, do you.:)
I'm not sure how to answer that. Keeping track of her weight would be very helpful.
I use a postage scale from Sam's Club for my smaller snake. Scales are around $20 but it's been awhile since I've bought one.
If she starts looking too thin for her size, that would be another way to tell but that may be more difficult for you since you are not experienced in keeping garter snakes(maybe I'm wrong).
3 weeks isn't a long time to go without food.
Have you tried live fish in a smaller container. Sometimes placing them in a restricted space with live fish will trigger an eating response. Just a thought.

[Hankj]

Hmmmm. Tomorrow I'll slip some salmon in her tank when I wake up and Monday I'll try the fish in a small container deal.

[Hankj]

I witnessed her actually drinking on her own. She's been active since I woke up but isn't going for the salmon still.

[guidofatherof5]

Drinking on her own.
That is great.

[Hankj]

She never did touch the salmon but she seems plumper.. Must be retaining a good amount of water :)

[guidofatherof5]

Well, half the equation has been solved. This is a good thing.
For her to get her own water shows mental processes going on. Self survival processes.
She had to know their was water there and had to make an effort to get it.
For having a head injury I think this is a good sign.

[kibakiba]

Keep trying and keep up the great work! She's really lucky to have a "pet" (no offense ;)) like you. Garters are never the pets, they are the owners. :D

[flickerfriend]

Good luck with her!

[Hankj]

So I got a call back from the vet. My sob letter was not a success lol.

I didn't talk to the vet, it was that older sounding man again... First he tells me it is illegal for me to take her out of the wild. I corrected him, made him eat my words, and told him I could legally take three more if I wanted lol!

They said I could put her in some reptile rescue program and they will rehab her and put her back into the wild but they cannot examine her for free while she is under my care..

[guidofatherof5]

That's stupid. I would make some calls and find a Vet. that was willing to at least give you some advice over the phone.
I will call my Vet. and see if he will do a phone consultation for you, if you want.
You might also check online for reptile rescues out of your State. Most have an 800 numbers. They may help you also.
Best of luck.

[Hankj]

The only tips he gave me is keep her warm and bring her in and add up a big bill... Yeah and if you think your vet would have some good info than I would definitely be interested. I'd love to explain it to an actual vet and see if he thinks I need to have it looked at. If he really thinks it is a good idea to have her seen by another vet I'll take her in.

[guidofatherof5]

The only tips he gave me is keep her warm and bring her in and add up a big bill... Yeah and if you think your vet would have some good info than I would definitely be interested. I'd love to explain it to an actual vet and see if he thinks I need to have it looked at. If he really thinks it is a good idea to have her seen by another vet I'll take her in.

I'll give him a call tomorrow and see what he says.;)

Dr. Bosilevac DVM

Best Care Pet Hospital (http://www.bestcarepethospitalomaha.com/)

[ConcinusMan]

Pretty much the same story around here Steve. You're very lucky to have a good vet for your snakes. All we'd get around here is the cold shoulder and a lecture like what just happened.

To make matters worse, nobody would bother to take the snake for rehabilitation around here. They'd just put it down. It's "just" a garter snake. Not important enough to bother.

[guidofatherof5]

Pretty much the same story around here Steve. You're very lucky to have a good vet for your snakes. All we'd get around here is the cold shoulder and a lecture like what just happened.

To make matters worse, nobody would bother to take the snake for rehabilitation around here. They'd just put it down. It's "just" a garter snake. Not important enough to bother.

If they only knew what they are missing.;)

[ConcinusMan]

First off, it's a wild animal, and so the only organization that has the authority to rehabilitate it would be the Dept. of Wildlife. Secondly, if it isn't game or a species of concern, they would just put it out of it's misery.

And yet, they'll rehabilitate a deer or elk, and then gladly release it so it can later be shot by a hunter. Go figure.

[Hankj]

I was kind of thinking that too. If they would actually rehab it or just let put it down.

She pooped again, this time just in her cage not on me lol. I put her in a smaller five gallon tank that has a rather narrow bottom. She is in there with a guppie in a standard hamster food bowl with just a little bit of water. There is also a night crawler in there with them. She hasn't paid any attention to either.

[Selkielass]

Pooping and drinking are both very good signs.
Thanks for making the effort for this one.
My wild caught eastern took several weeks to eat, even though she was calm to handle.
She started to eat a couple times, then let go of the food when she saw me watching her. She wanted her privacy.
I started offering food at the times she was most active (Dawn and dusk) and when I was about to leave the room so she would have complete quiet.

Once she began eating, she ate pretty regularly and she has become less shy, tho she is still a slow or reluctant feeder- some snakes are.

Your snakes appetite may be low because of season as well as injury- it is still very much winter, and I've noticed my snakes interest in food waxing and waning with the outside weather even though she is quite cut off from outside temperatures and light.

Keeping one night crawler in there is a good idea. Trade it out when it dies and watch for it to disappear. (A shallow dish like a plastic lid with a few drops of water in it keeps crawlers going for a surprising amount of time.) Smaller worms or cut up worms might be easier for your patient, but they won't last long.

Good luck. I'm hoping for you.

[mustang]

I was kind of thinking that too. If they would actually rehab it or just let put it down.

She pooped again, this time just in her cage not on me lol. .
wow your w/c spared the bed spread:D if only i was lucky

[ConcinusMan]

What are doing in bed with snakes Robert? Nevermind. I don't want to know.:p

[kibakiba]

I let my snakes on my bed. They seem to like going to different areas of the house. When I'm sore or depressed, I bring Mama with me and let her lay under the covers with me. Something about having her there is just comforting.

[guidofatherof5]

I'll give him a call tomorrow and see what he says.;)

Dr. Bosilevac DVM

Best Care Pet Hospital (http://www.bestcarepethospitalomaha.com/)

I just got off the phone with Dr. Bosilevac. He said he would be glad to talk with you.
If you look at his website you'll see he has 2 locations. He is at the "L" Street location on Tues and Thurs.
The other location on Mon, Wed, Fri. Sat.
I hope he's able to help.

[Hankj]

I will give him a call, maybe tomorrow if I get a snow day haha.

She never ate the guppy and I had a night crawler in there all day that she didn't touch. But as soon as five minutes after I turned her light on today she was active, when I got home from school she was active, my friend was over here for about an hour when I was gone and said she was active, and she was active when I got home later in the night. So very active :)

[guidofatherof5]

I think active is a good thing.

[Hankj]

I let her be for a few days without me bugging her too much and tried to give her half a pinkie but she didn't bother.

I just called that vet and he is on lunch but I left a message so hopefully he will call back =)

[Odie]

I let my snakes on my bed. They seem to like going to different areas of the house. When I'm sore or depressed, I bring Mama with me and let her lay under the covers with me. Something about having her there is just comforting.
Your infected. You have the fever, Garter snake fever :eek:

[Hankj]

Woah! I find this as a weird turn. She is starting to shed! I was just looking at her today thinking "She's dull, wonder if she's gonna shed."

[guidofatherof5]

Woah! I find this as a weird turn. She is starting to shed! I was just looking at her today thinking "She's dull, wonder if she's gonna shed."

Good reason for not eating.
Keep an eye on her shed to make sure it's complete.
She just might start eating after the shed.;)

[kibakiba]

Your infected. You have the fever, Garter snake fever :eek:

Yes, I am infected and I know I have the garter snake fever. I've had it since I got Snakey. ;)

[Hankj]

How long should the shed take? When should I be worried she's not being able to complete it. She's just slithering around rubbing against everything lol.

[Hankj]

It's not coming off in one piece, flaking off slowly..

[guidofatherof5]

It's not coming off in one piece, flaking off slowly..

A soak in warm water will help it come off better.
Running warm water after the soak will assist it coming off also.

[Hankj]

Should I let her keep trying and wait or just start helping?

[guidofatherof5]

If she's trying you can let her have a shot at it. Shouldn't take too long. I would say no longer than 1-2 hours. After that I would assist.
Good luck. Keep us posted
Did you make contact with my Vet.?

[Hankj]

No I left a message with what I suppose was the secretary but never got a call back.

[Hankj]

Okay that was an interesting experience. She didn't like it too much. She was fighting at first, then gave up, kind of scared me lol, and then she really started fighting it and i almost lost grip of her so I decided to stop. I got the skin off to about the tail or maybe a little past the tail but it looks like its coming off as she's running around.

[guidofatherof5]

Sounds like you got the critical part done.

[gregmonsta]

Hopefully it will come off on its own ;)

[Hankj]

Well we just force fed it probably two inches of earth worm haha

[guidofatherof5]

I hope that went well.
Did she/he swollow in down afterwards? What was the reaction?

[Hankj]

Well we got it in there, closed her mouth, then she spit it back out, we put it in there again and she slowly swallowed it. Hardest part was getting her in the sock to be honest.

[guidofatherof5]

I hope she will start eating on her own soon.
Thanks for the effort you are putting forth.;)

[Hankj]

Ha no problem. It wasnt a big piece of worm by any means, when do you think she'll start eating on her own, if this did trigger it?

[guidofatherof5]

Ha no problem. It wasnt a big piece of worm by any means, when do you think she'll start eating on her own, if this did trigger it?

I just don't know
This is one of those "time will tell" things.;)

[Hankj]

Well she is still very active but she doesn't look to hot. Her bottom side is all concave, sign of starvation? My buddy and I are planned to do another force feeding Thursday, hopefully we'll just have to assist her..

I also just went out and splurged a little on her to create a more natural cage. Got some Repti Bark instead of the carpets. I read in a book that having an artificial looking habitat could stress a snake out so I'm giving this a shot.

[guidofatherof5]

You may need to increase the amount to force fed food or increase the frequency.
Glad you updated the thread.
Best of luck.

[ConcinusMan]

If you're going to resort to force feeding, I would give the snake pinky mice, not worms. Mice are more dense in nutrients. If you're only feeding the snake worms, they need a lot of them and very often.

[Hankj]

Yes, I didn't give up on the thread or on the snake, was just giving her a lot of alone time to see if that would get her to eat.

If I do give her a pinky, do I give her a whole one? Also, do I give her a live one, pre killed one, or is a frozen one fine?

[ConcinusMan]

Frozen (thawed thoroughly) or pre killed is fine. There's really no reason to feed them live. You'll have to use your own judgement as to your first question. I don't really know what an appropriate sized meal would be for your snake but from the pictures it seems like a pretty small snake. When you force feed you can't really try to put something down their throat that would require them to unhinge their jaw. If it doesn't fit easily, then don't try to force it if it seems too big.

You might want to try the head end of an extra small pinky and maybe lubricate it lightly with worm slime or oil (fat) from fish. Otherwise, if the snake is too small, then tube feeding diced pinkies is another option.

You should be prepared for the possibility that the snake has already began "sliding down a slope" from which it cannot recover. His injuries look pretty serious. Generally force feeding should only be done temporarily and if the snake doesn't start eating on it's own, it might not not ever do so.

Your efforts are commendable but at some point you may need to make a decision to continue or humanely euthanize the snake. A life of stress and force feeding isn't much of a life. The decision is yours however. I'm not suggesting what you should or shouldn't do in that matter.

[Hankj]

I would think a pinky would be too large. Especially since I've only done this once, with a worm.

Is salmon nutritionally more dense then an earthworm? I can easily cut salmon to an appropriate size. I will acquire something useful for tube feeding shortly.

[kibakiba]

I think it would depend. I gutload my worms with a lot things I would thing are good for the garters. It's more calcium rich the way I do it, but if they aren't gutloaded, then I would assume the fish is more dense. Most garters do seem to like/take worms better (in my experience) You can use a knife and cut an earthworm into small chunks if needed.

[Hankj]

I ended up tearing the worm into three pieces and dusting the last chunk with some repticalcium.

Can you share with me what you gutload your earthworms with, please?

[Hankj]

We were force feeding her again today and she swallowed most of the worm on her own this time! I just had to get her started and she did most of the work.

[ConcinusMan]

I ended up tearing the worm into three pieces and dusting the last chunk with some repticalcium.

Can you share with me what you gutload your earthworms with, please?

Believe it or not, just good ol' rich composted leaf litter with a little bone meal added provides a lot of nutrition and is a good way to gut load earth worms. Just the castings (poop) inside the worms will have many times the amount of calcium found in the soil, and it's in an easily absorbed form too.

[Hankj]

Just a few minutes ago I took her out of the cage and put her in a little plastic shoe box so I could clean all her shed skin out of the tank. We had not force/assist fed her since two Thursdays ago. I put a earthworm in there with her just to give it a try and after I cleaned up the tank there was no worm and a big lump in her belly :)

[kibakiba]

That's wonderful! Hopefully she'll continue to recover and thrive with you. You're doing a great job.

[drache]

that's great news
congrats

[guidofatherof5]

Great news to start my day.
Good work.;)

[Hankj]

How often should I try to feed her now? Just once a week or more/less?

[guidofatherof5]

If worms, I would suggest twice a week.
Maybe 3 times since someone has some catching-up to do.;)
Love to see a photo.

[Hankj]

She looks better I think.. but it's kind of gruesome. She was real scabbed over, on the top of her head and her eye but when she shed, the scabs went with it, now there is just a pit where her eye should be and missing scales, but it looks better than being all scabby.

[Hankj]

Okay.. now a new problem. When ever I try to touch her she strikes lol. Does she think I am food? I am pretty sure she is totally blind. She is scarfing down a big worm right now, I am gonna try to touch her again, if she strikes, I will offer her another worm and see if hungry is the problem.

[Hankj]

I went back into her tank and she tried to escape me, like she always has, but no biting. So is she just aggressive? Is this normal wild garter snake behavior? Or is she just blind and hungry and thinks my finger is a worm?

[guidofatherof5]

Let her strike as long as she's eating.:D

[ConcinusMan]

Maybe she wants pinkies, (or fingers, or thumbs) haha.

[Hankj]

That was a good one lol..

[kibakiba]

My little Runt will do that. Part of me worries that she may be blind, she has a hard time telling where the food is, and I have to push it in her face to get her to grab on. She also strikes at me, but only if she's smelt food and if I touched her. Maybe she senses your presence, but cant tell if you're going to hurt her, so she tries to defend herself.

[Hankj]

She has never tried to bite me before she started eating. Even when we were force feeding her she didn't try to hurt me.

So either she thinks I'm food or what ever triggered in her brain to start eating also triggered her to be more aggressive and wild?

She was fine, just tried to evade me after she ate that huge worm so I think she is just hungry. Make it easier for me to know when to feed her I guess haha. She wrestled that worm around too. She was strung up in the plants when i gave it to her and she was whip it around it was nice sight.

[kibakiba]

Well, at least you know she's getting better. If you have the smell of food on your hands, even just a tiny little drop, it could make her bite at you.

[Hankj]

Hmm... I was handling baby food and mealworms for a gecko before I touched her? That's it that I can think about, who knows, I work at a pet store but I washed my hands after work..

[Sonya610]

Just a few minutes ago I took her out of the cage and put her in a little plastic shoe box so I could clean all her shed skin out of the tank. We had not force/assist fed her since two Thursdays ago. I put a earthworm in there with her just to give it a try and after I cleaned up the tank there was no worm and a big lump in her belly :)

Since she is blind and adjusting to it and she ate on her own when placed in a small container maybe you want to stick with that for feeding her. If she gets used to eating in that small container and learns "that is where the food is" it may help with eating and curb the finger nipping problem. Maybe get something smaller than a shoebox, something that could fit in her regular tank would be ideal imo. Mix up some worms with pinky parts in a little pile and she may eat them all.

I know with Ball Pythons some people (the really paranoid ones) always feed in a separate container because they are worried if they feed in the main enclosure they coud be mistaken for food when they put their hand in the cage.

[ConcinusMan]

It's not at all uncommon for a snake that sees poorly, perhaps shadows/light only, to nip at anything they sense to be moving near them. Amy does it when he's hungry. He can see light and shadow only. If I cast a shadow over him when he's hungry, and he smells food, he'll come flailing out with his mouth open and bite anything he happens to bump into in the process. This is a feeding response. However, he also will do quick strikes in my direction, and flatten himself out, (doing a viper impression) if I cast a shadow on him and it startles him. The feeding response and the defensive strikes are different.

[Hankj]

She doesn't S back or anything. She doesn't look like she's ready to attack she just tries to bite what ever touches her haha.

If I got a smaller container, that I put in her tank, would I put her in it, or let her find it on her own? And its only a ten gallon with a fair amount of accessories gonna be a tight fit.

Would trying to handle her daily help out?

[ConcinusMan]

Sounds like typical behavior for a hungry blind snake. Snakes merely tolerate handling, some better than others. It would probably just cause more stress.

[Sonya610]

She doesn't S back or anything. She doesn't look like she's ready to attack she just tries to bite what ever touches her haha.

If I got a smaller container, that I put in her tank, would I put her in it, or let her find it on her own? And its only a ten gallon with a fair amount of accessories gonna be a tight fit.

Would trying to handle her daily help out?

Forget about it fitting in the enclosure, doesn't really matter. But if you could get her used to eating in separate container that might be good. I would probably use the same soap to wash it with so the small container always smells the same, can't hurt.

I would gently place her in the container and leave her there for a while or until she eats, making sure the temps stay reasonable, but would not handle her much outside of that until she is eating fairly well. Eating is the top priority and any additional stress can thwart that effort. Also if she does eat be careful about handling her for a couple of days afterwards, especially if it is a good size meal, handling and stress after a big meal can cause regurgitation.

[Hankj]

http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/5375/garter1.jpg
Here is a picture of her taking down a big earthworm. Don't worry, she didn't get that bark in her mouth.

Few questions. She shed again yesterday, almost completely for the first time. Today she still had maybe a few centimeters of skin on her tail. I took her out and get some water on my hands and had my buddy spray her tail with water and I worked it off. She produced a very very foul smelling musk. I thought I smelled the musk before but now that she is eating it is way worse but when I was getting the skin off her tail started bleeding a little bit. Was I too rough getting the skin off? Anything to worry about it?

Also, do garter snakes need UVB light or is it beneficial to them at all?

[ConcinusMan]

Your last question is debateable. We don't really know if it's beneficial but we do know that low to moderate UV exposure does no harm. Quite frankly the answer is no, they don't really need it. Lizards and tortoises need it in order to synthesize vitamin D in their skin. Snakes are quite capable of getting D from their food (rodents are an excellent source) and do not need to synthesize it. I believe that balanced visible spectrum lighting that somewhat simulates natural daylight has positive psychological effects on appetite and activity levels in garter snakes and might play a role in reproductive behavior as well.

I've experienced a little bleeding on the tail when removing stuck skin. It's usually nothing serious if it occurs the tail. Any healing that needs to be done will usually take care of itself as long as the enclosure is reasonably clean of fecal material and bacteria and substrate is dry. I wouldn't worry about it.

[guidofatherof5]

Great to see her eating.;)
Have you considered naming her?

[Hankj]

This is true for all kinds of snakes?

When I first got her a friend started calling her Lewis and since she turned out to be female I have named her Lois.

[guidofatherof5]

This is true for all kinds of snakes?

When I first got her a friend started calling her Lewis and since she turned out to be female I have named her Lois.

Nice.

[ConcinusMan]

That pic reminds me of...

:-P

[Hankj]

Of...

[Hankj]

Oh yeah another question I had.. I was at a fishing store and I saw some worm bedding called SuperGro or something, to keep their bait worms alive and/or growing. Do you guys know if this would be decent gutload or not?

[guidofatherof5]

I looked it up but couldn't find out what was in it.

[kibakiba]

Personally, I'd stay away from it unless it was 100% organic with absolutely no chemicals. I use a mixture of calcium powder, bone meal, and organic cricket food (I raised crickets for a while) and the worms go crazy for it. It's high in calcium, which is a good gut load in itself.

[Hankj]

Alright thanks, I'll get the correct name shortly

[guidofatherof5]

Is this the stuff you're talking about.
2# Super-Gro Worm Bedding - Frabill - Aerators & Bait Keepers - Fishing - Franks Great Outdoors Store View (http://www.franksgreatoutdoors.com/fishing/aerators-bait-keepers/frabill/2-super-gro-worm-bedding.html)

[Hankj]

Yes it is. But I also saw another kind at Meijer or Wal-Mart that is labeled all organic and it was called Magic Worm Bedding

[guidofatherof5]

Yes it is. But I also saw another kind at Meijer or Wal-Mart that is labeled all organic and it was called Magic Worm Bedding

I have some of that and use it for my worms. The bedding and the worm food they sell. Same brand on both.

[Hankj]

Ohhh so you think it is an acceptable gutload?

[kibakiba]

Well, if it's organic, which I guess it is, it doesn't hurt to use it at all :) You could sprinkle some calcium at the top to make it even better ;)

[snakehill]

They sell worm food at Walmart?:confused:

[RedSidedSPR]

Really?

[infernalis]

They sell worm food at Walmart?:confused:


Really?


I picked up a dented can at my local wal mart for 99 cents once.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31HWYT1WCEL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

[guidofatherof5]

Good stuff. I use it for mine also.

[Hankj]

Hey guys, she is doing great. Very very aggressive eater. Now I guess it's time to ask the question.

Would she survive on her own in the wild and is that the thing to do?

After seeing someone on craigslist selling a ton of baby garters that he got when his daughter caught a wild garter and finding a moral problem with that I started to think about my situation. Does the snake need me now? If she does I am fully prepared to take care of her for the rest of her life and would like to but she should be in the wild if she can. Thoughts?

[kibakiba]

Honestly, I don't think she'd have a very high chance of surviving. It is your choice in the end. You need to decide what you think would be best for her.

[guidofatherof5]

Hey guys, she is doing great. Very very aggressive eater. Now I guess it's time to ask the question.

Would she survive on her own in the wild and is that the thing to do?

After seeing someone on craigslist selling a ton of baby garters that he got when his daughter caught a wild garter and finding a moral problem with that I started to think about my situation. Does the snake need me now? If she does I am fully prepared to take care of her for the rest of her life and would like to but she should be in the wild if she can. Thoughts?

Not very long in my opinion. From what I understand she is all but blind.
She'd be a Happy Meal for some predator.

I would like to thank you for all the time and effort you've devoted to this little snake.
I think she needs you or at least care for the rest of her life.
Nobody better to do that than you.;)
Just my opinion.

[Venti]

That was what I was thinking, but wasn't sure.
Just wondering, what are the odds of a half blind snake surviving?

[ConcinusMan]

You must mean in the wild? Because I do have a snake that can't see much except for dark and light and he's fine. Amy, my albino radix. He was born that way.

[guidofatherof5]

That was what I was thinking, but wasn't sure.
Just wondering, what are the odds of a half blind snake surviving?

Without sight the threats from above have all the advantage.

[ConcinusMan]

That's probably why Amy completely freaks out and goes all "viper" if you cast a shadow on him. He can see the shadow, but can't see what is causing it.

[kibakiba]

Runt does that too. She cant seem to tell whats going on, ever. She tries eating my fingers or hand every day.

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah, Amy smells food but can't see so he just waves his head around with mouth open until he touches something, then "chomp!"

[kibakiba]

Runt doesn't even have to smell food. She bites and chews on my hands all the time.

[ConcinusMan]

Nice.

[jitami]

Just read this thread for the first time... yes all of it :)... and just wanted to give Hank some major kudos for all the did to save Lois. If you're up to caring for her for the rest of her life I think she's better off staying with you. She's comfortable, eating well, and seems to be thriving in your care. I wouldn't change that unless you absolutely had to :)

[d_virginiana]

Most people never even have to spend that much time on snakes that they go out and buy much less one they find. You really went above and beyond for Lois.
If you can, I'd say you should keep her. A half-blind snake probably wouldn't fare very well in the wild, and she seems to have a very nice home where she is :)

[Venti]

I would not let Theif go anyway, just because of the stupid kids in my neighbourhood. Last time they found a water snake they said it was a copperhead and sawed off it's head with a pocket knife :(

[RedSidedSPR]

I hate kids.

[guidofatherof5]

I would not let Theif go anyway, just because of the stupid kids in my neighbourhood. Last time they found a water snake they said it was a copperhead and sawed off it's head with a pocket knife :(

I'm at a loss for words but I bet that scenario plays itself out many times daily, all over around the world .:mad:

[RedSidedSPR]

If does. Geez, there'd be videos on YouTube of it. People do that all the time. I have personally watched people do it several times.

They see this beautiful racer, not bothering them, not even on their property, so naturally they go get a shovel. :mad:

Uh oh, a yellow snake, must be a water moccasin! Get a shovel!

I know countless people that go by "only good snake is a dead snake"

My friend has a video on YouTube of their family awhile back finding this little baby rat snake in their garage. They all yell "ONLY GOOD SNAKE IS A DEAD SNAKE!!" *SHUNK*

Makes me really not like people.

[guidofatherof5]

Hey guys, she is doing great. Very very aggressive eater. Now I guess it's time to ask the question.

Would she survive on her own in the wild and is that the thing to do?

After seeing someone on craigslist selling a ton of baby garters that he got when his daughter caught a wild garter and finding a moral problem with that I started to think about my situation. Does the snake need me now? If she does I am fully prepared to take care of her for the rest of her life and would like to but she should be in the wild if she can. Thoughts?

I can't tell you enough about how your update brought a smile to my face.
I've been wondering about you and your snake.
You have done a great job.

[Mommy2many]

Great Job! Hopefully you can keep taking care of her from this point on. Sounds like she could use it. It would be a shame to release her after her recovery, only to become a meal to a crow or hawk or something.

[Hankj]

Yeah, Amy smells food but can't see so he just waves his head around with mouth open until he touches something, then "chomp!"
That is exactly what she does haha.



I know countless people that go by "only good snake is a dead snake"

I enjoy torturing these people at the pet store I work at. I like to run around with the five foot ball python and try to get them to touch it. They think I am just teasing them, and run away anyway, but I want to make them feel uncomfortable because they are kind of sickening.



I am wanting to keep her but I just felt if she could survive, she should be back out there. You guys are the experts and don't think she would survive so I am going to keep her for the rest of her life. I am more than happy to do that.

I want to thank all of you for your help and your encouraging words. I received an email on my phone last night showing me all of your posts and I fell asleep with a huge smile on my face.. then dreamt there was a snake in my bed, but thats besides the point. It means a lot to me that you guys are supporting and there to answer all my questions.

[ConcinusMan]

I'm at a loss for words but I bet that scenario plays itself out many times daily, all over around the world .:mad:

I was just talking to a contractor doing some work at my house. He saw me in the yard with one of my snakes. He started telling me about how he was driving through the Columbia River Gorge near White Salmon, WA when he saw a rattlesnake on the road that was so big, it stretched 3/4 of the way across the road. Then he proceeded to tell me how he missed it with the car, went out of his way to turn around just to come back and finish the job.:mad:

[snakehill]

And he was PROUD of this??!!!!:mad:

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah, pretty much.

[RedSidedSPR]

now that's an a-hole.

[Didymus20X6]

No kidding! When I was buying supplies for my snake enclosures at a local hardware store, one of the workers was bragging about how he killed a rat snake with his truck. You should have seen how proud he was of himself, yet every instinct in my body was saying, "Come back and brag to me after you've caught one live and released it in the wild. Then you'll have something to be proud of."

[Mommy2many]

"Come back and brag to me after you've caught one live and released it in the wild. Then you'll have something to be proud of."


Exactly!

[jitami]

I am wanting to keep her but I just felt if she could survive, she should be back out there. You guys are the experts and don't think she would survive so I am going to keep her for the rest of her life. I am more than happy to do that.

And I'm more than happy to hear it :) Great job!

[RedSidedSPR]

Good choice!

[Hornets23]

Glad your snake is doing so well!

[Hankj]

Thank you, all of you!