Interesting ....

[gregmonsta]

:rolleyes: Suzy is out to confuse me .... could be reading too much into it (bound to be desperate for food after that cold starvation fun) ....

Out of brumation 26/12 and paired with J
29/12 weight 181g
has eaten 3fluffs and some salmon since in two sittings ..... and has been pooping away happily :o.
08/01 weight = 228g

47g .... in 10 days?

Before brumation she was 199g so that's 29g up on her heaviest of 2010.

Any stats for comparison?

[Stefan-A]

Judging by my female's stats from last year, she never did better than 14 grams in 7 days.


http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakes10/preggostats-mar14-2010.jpg

Any missing children in your area, Greg?

[erinlovessnakes]

hey it's mommytomany's kid erin:p

[gregmonsta]

Judging by my female's stats from last year, she never did better than 14 grams in 7 days.

Any missing children in your area, Greg?

:rolleyes: Not that I'm aware of ... the average fluff is weighing in at 5-6g so lets say that's 15g of rodent .... and a fair guess would be that she's polished off approx 20g of Salmon .... that's 35g .... lets say 40g as an absolute max.
Factor in the pooping (plenty of) .... that's 7-12g of 'phantom' weight.

At least we know Erin is safe .... :rolleyes: unless Suzy installed an internet connection in her colon.

[gregmonsta]

I put J and Suzy together for a third time. Not even the slightest interest from J at all this time. I'm taking this as a sign that the job was done and that Suzy's weight gain is a combination of 're-stocking' and ovulation.

I put Fawn and Slithers together again just for luck. Slithers has been all over her although she doesn't seem to want to know at all .... Tail-slapping and general displeasure on her part. Again, after the spotting found after the first introduction her reluctance to play nice may again be a sign :rolleyes:

[Hankj]

It can't be possible for her to just magically gain this weight? Even if she is gaining weight from a pregnancy she has to eat to take in that weight, right? She isn't turning air into baby snakes.

I'm no snake expert but the Law of Conservation of Mass comes to mind when I read this. She had to of eaten something else or you goofed on the weighing... right? Is there some snake voodoo I'm missing out on?

[Hankj]

Well I guess air could come into play to make babies and a lot of water drinking..?

[gregmonsta]

Water could come into it, she might be retaining it as part of the process Or may have had a big drink. Mass isn't necessarily built on input alone though and I always check weight twice. Weight can be increased simply by hormonal processes triggering the restructuring of available nutrients in the body.

[guidofatherof5]

Water could come into it, she might be retaining it as part of the process Or may have had a big drink. Mass isn't necessarily built on input alone though and I always check weight twice. Weight can be increased simply by hormonal processes triggering the restructuring of available nutrients in the body.

Well spoken, Professor.;)

[gregmonsta]

:rolleyes: The lecturer in me does surface from time to time :D

[guidofatherof5]

:rolleyes: The lecturer in me does surface from time to time :D


Nothing wrong with that.;)

[Hankj]

It has to be based on some sort of input? Air water or food. It can't take one part of its body and make it into a few new things and those new things weigh more or less without the snake taking in or discarding something.

[gregmonsta]

It has to be based on some sort of input? Air water or food. It can't take one part of its body and make it into a few new things and those new things weigh more or less without the snake taking in or discarding something.

Think of hormones acting like steroids :rolleyes: or something to that effect, amplifying the creation of the necessary goods ... some tissue weighs more than other tissue even if it is made of the same key ingredients .... therefore the direct conversion of tissue x to y, even with minimal input can = something with higher density/weight (depending on various factors, of course).

[Hankj]

All I'm saying is the Law of Conversation of Mass. You CANNOT have weight gain without some input. Retaining a bunch of water and using that for some "reconstruction" and gaining weight I'll buy.

[Hankj]

And steriods don't make anything out of thin air. Try taking some steroids and not eating, you won't get any bigger. Sure they can amplify the creation of new tissue... from the food she's eating.

[ConcinusMan]

You know, I always wondered about that myself. Since garters start out as eggs, and have no connection to the body like mammals do, then why do gravid females gain so much weight? You would think that the already fertilized eggs developing would simply convert some of their weight to the babies and there would be no gain, but that's not what happens.

If there's going to be a gain, I would think it would be as the eggs are being formed in the body, before they are fertilized, not after. I laugh when people say their garter is gravid and "eating for two" so to speak. They are not. The nutrients are already there in the yolks, and have been since conception. And yet, the mother continues to gain weight long after the babies start growing. The only matter exchange happening after conception is gas exchange. That doesn't seem to account for enough weight.

[Hankj]

If she still eats and drinks normally she's retaining more of the nutrients and water, that's all.

[ConcinusMan]

I was thinking the same thing. If a snake is dehydrated and hasn't had a meal in a long time, naturally it's going to gain weight after eating and drinking, even if it is pooping just fine.

Of course, there could have been an error with those numbers too.

[Hankj]

And where can I find an article of garter snake pregnancy? I told that fact to someone "garter snakes give live birth" and then I was like HUH?? Just seems so counter intuitive them being snakes and all.

[ConcinusMan]

They don't get pregnant. They simply retain their eggs until they are ready to hatch, instead of laying them. Presumably an adaptation to cold. An animal that can move around and thermoregulate the eggs have a better chance of incubating successfully. That's why we don't say that snakes are "pregnant". They are "gravid"

Northwestern alligator lizards do the same thing. Live birth. Southern alligator lizards lay eggs.

[Hankj]

And like a chicken egg has big enough pores to allow oxygen and CO2 to pass through it right? Wouldn't the garter pre-hatching (?) need to have oxygen, that all happens inside the snake?

[ConcinusMan]

Yes. It does. There is gas exchange inside the mother, but not nutrient exchange. After the babies are born, they must get out of the sack immediately and start breathing or they will die. Sometimes this happens before they are born and you get fully developed still borns.

Garter snakes are ovoviviparous: Ovoviviparity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ovoviviparity)

[Hankj]

Does the shell just dissolve away from the babies or do they hatch in the mother??

[ConcinusMan]

There is no shell just as there is no shell on a bird's egg until it's being laid. The shell goes on as it is being laid, and hardens moments after coming out.

Garters obviously do not have to put the shell on since the babies are ready to hatch.

[Hankj]

Hmm thanks for the info

[guidofatherof5]

Here is a newborn T.radix. Still in its shell membrane.
This little one still hasn't taken its first breath.
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/newborn.jpg

[Hankj]

Will it "hatch" ?

[guidofatherof5]

Will it "hatch" ?

It's first job is to break out of the membrane. They usually do that within moments of being born. This little one did great and is still with me.
Rgaj_bO_k1w

[ConcinusMan]

Skip to 1:45 and you'll see one "hatch"

h5BBguYlcT8

If the humidity is very low, or they are born on a very absorbent material, the membrane dries out and they die inside. That's one of the reasons people come home to find most of the babies never made it out of their membranes and died. Some babies struggle and just can't get out. That's why I like to be there to help. The one litter born in my absence last year resulted in 10 dead babies, still in the membranes.:( 20 made it though.:)

[Hankj]

Wow great videos guys. I cracked up when the brother/sister came waltzing over to see how the little guy was going hahaha

[gregmonsta]

Think of hormones acting like steroids :rolleyes: or something to that effect, amplifying the creation of the necessary goods ... some tissue weighs more than other tissue even if it is made of the same key ingredients .... therefore the direct conversion of tissue x to y, even with minimal input can = something with higher density/weight (depending on various factors, of course).

:rolleyes: re-read ^


All I'm saying is the Law of Conversation of Mass. You CANNOT have weight gain without some input. Retaining a bunch of water and using that for some "reconstruction" and gaining weight I'll buy.

The steroid note didn't say there was no food input :rolleyes: ..... but the hormonal change includes the incoming food to make something that is denser that the usual fat-stores.
Females build up fat stores for the latter part of pregnancy before the process of egg-production and then concentrate on producing the egg masses. Even females kept on a normal diet (ie owner unaware of pregnancy) and weight gain will still exceed the input in the initial stages.
My radix last year went through vitellogenesis and produced some slugs (unfertilised egg masses). I wasn't expecting it but even then a small increase in growth rate was evident even with the regular / 'normal' food input.
Even the 'Law of conservation of mass' allows for flexibillity and is a general 'rule' and a constant point of debate (several parts of this theory stand contended in science), cases like this have been argued over. This (a living organism) is a flexible system and allows for increase of mass at a molecular level. A garter snake is not exclusively an open or a closed system. :rolleyes: There are other factors involved, in my opinion. A pregant female will retain as much energy as possible (so it is possible to think that this would also be stored from internal processes and not just food). She will also, I imagine, combine existing fat stores with the food input when necessary, or for certain stages of embryo development.
At any rate it's an interesting thing to consider.
The role of water in these processes may indeed be quite significant and difficult to account for if you don't see an increase in drinking activity or drier stools. Again, this could be water retained from the food source too.

[gregmonsta]

Suzy

08/01/2011 228g
16/01/2011 252g

Fawn

08/01/2011 165g
16/01/2011 196g

:rolleyes:

Suzy is currently in shed - dark - 1 day, blue - 1 day, clear - 1 day, expect shed tomorrow .... fast, huh? :D

[ConcinusMan]

Yup, that's fast. My snakes seem to take forever. Like 5 days blue, 3 or 4 days clear, then shed.

[Stefan-A]

Suzy

08/01/2011 228g
16/01/2011 252g

Fawn

08/01/2011 165g
16/01/2011 196g

:rolleyes:

Suzy is currently in shed - dark - 1 day, blue - 1 day, clear - 1 day, expect shed tomorrow .... fast, huh? :D
Expect a 15-20 gram drop in weight when it sheds. That extra skin and those fluids weigh quite a bit.

[gregmonsta]

Will bear that in mind and re-weigh post-shed ;). I have to say I haven't noticed such a significant drop in weight simply from shedding before though.

[Stefan-A]

Will bear that in mind and re-weigh post-shed ;). I have to say I haven't noticed such a significant drop in weight simply from shedding before though.
Maybe it's just my snakes that lose that much. Should have notes somewhere of a preggo slightly bigger than that losing 20 grams from shedding. Was weighed a day or so before it shed (almost a week after its last meal, IIRC) and again a day or so after.

[gregmonsta]

Actually I won't bother .... :o I forgot I'd been feeding them after the weigh-in so it wouldn't show anything conclusive.

[gregmonsta]

She shed today :D .... while I was pulling the old shed out I spotted J mercilessly trying to copulate with Spazz .... I decided to see what his reaction to Suzy post-shed would be ..... :rolleyes: none what so ever.

[gregmonsta]

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/soozer11.JPG

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/soozer1.JPG

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/soozer.JPG

[kibakiba]

Shes big and pretty :D

[gregmonsta]

Shes big and pretty :D

Cheers :D .... can't wait to see her 'big up'.

[ConcinusMan]

Shes big and pretty :D

She sure is. A big beefy and pretty radix.

Forgive me if I missed anything but are there any mutated genes involved or are all her babies going to be normal WT? Is a pic of the father posted somewhere too?

[guidofatherof5]

Greg, She's awesome.
Welcome on the Ranch, anytime.;)

[ConcinusMan]

But then he'd never see them again. (hint, want 2c pics)

[gregmonsta]

He's just another nice normal :D

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/Jsun.JPG

[guidofatherof5]

The word normal should never be used to describe a radix.:D

[gregmonsta]

The antonyms of normal don't work to well either ..... another nice weird/abnormal .... :D although weird sums J up nicely.

[gregmonsta]

Suzy

08/01/2011 228g
16/01/2011 252g
25/01/2011 269g

Fawn

08/01/2011 165g
16/01/2011 196g
25/01/2011 204g

Both girls shed in between the last two checks. We'll see what the weights are at next time Stefan ;) we might see an accountable loss after all. Although Sky showed a 4g gain after a shed, while not feeding last year. :rolleyes: that was at a different time of pregnancy though. (and she was just ridiculously huge).

[Stefan-A]

Indeed.

[gregmonsta]

Suzy

08/01/2011 228g
16/01/2011 252g
25/01/2011 269g
02/02/2011 263g

Fawn

08/01/2011 165g
16/01/2011 196g
25/01/2011 204g
02/02/2011 211g

Suzy has refused the last two feeds now :rolleyes: .... currently setting temps in birthing enclosure 1. Planning for the move sometime soon.

[Stefan-A]

Promising. :)

I've had mine in a birthing enclosure for two or three weeks now. Playing it safe.

[gregmonsta]

Fawn ate yesterday, a smaller meal than she has been, she regurgitated about half a moment ago :rolleyes: .... another one to separate. Not enough space left for food :D

[Stefan-A]

Sounds... fun. :D

[gregmonsta]

Well ... a little smelly to be sure - but definitely interesting :D ... she also defecated just prior to this so this seems to be a focussed voiding of the system.

[gregmonsta]

Suzy

08/01/2011 228g
16/01/2011 252g
25/01/2011 269g
02/02/2011 263g
10/02/2011 258g


Fawn

08/01/2011 165g
16/01/2011 196g
25/01/2011 204g
02/02/2011 211g
10/02/2011 229g

Suzy is set on cruise. Has been circling her tub for a couple of days with occaisional bouts of basking. Fawn is obsessed with the hotspot, appears to be headed for a shed and .... I can feel definite babybumps this week :D

[guidofatherof5]

It shouldn't be long now.
Can't wait to see some baby pictures.
How much cruising, circling of your flat have you been doing?:D
♫ Anticipation, anticipation
Is makin' me late
Is keepin' me waitin'

[gregmonsta]

How much cruising, circling of your flat have you been doing?:D


:rolleyes: you know me Steve .... backflips and circuits galore.

[gregmonsta]

Suzy

08/01/2011 228g
16/01/2011 252g
25/01/2011 269g
02/02/2011 263g
10/02/2011 258g
14/02/2011 254g


Fawn

08/01/2011 165g
16/01/2011 196g
25/01/2011 204g
02/02/2011 211g
10/02/2011 229g
14/02/2011 220g

Suzy still cruising and Fawn has cleared :rolleyes: tick tock ....

[guidofatherof5]

Looks like they are levelling out. Hoping for babies, soon.
How's Terri doing through all this waiting?

[gregmonsta]

Not as fussed as I am but really looking forward to it. Fawn just shed her skin .... considering the timing this appears like the pre-birth slough. Sometime in the next 14days I'm hoping for squigglies.
Suzy shows no sign of wanting to shed ... she stopped feeding earlier than Fawn and is still being active. time will tell :D

[Stefan-A]

So, will these be your first babies?

[gregmonsta]

I certainly hope so :rolleyes: ... especially after last year's upset. I've got all I need apart from the worms I'll order the day the first girl pops ;)

[Stefan-A]

Yeah, last year wasn't exactly great. Hopefully this one will be better.

[gregmonsta]

Keeping everything crossed, hoping for the best but definitely on standby for anything out of the ordinary.
I'm looking forward to the experience ;) I'm sure you'll know the level of excitement that's building.

[Stefan-A]

Yeah, I keep glancing over at the wandering garter's tub 2 or 3 times a minute. I actually did it 5 or 6 times while typing this. :D

[gregmonsta]

Girly shots ... Fawn looks breath-takingly gorgeous after a shed.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/65684696.JPG

Suzy is still being her usual self .... won't keep still long enough for a decent photo ...

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/542185.JPG

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/35478.JPG

[guidofatherof5]

Fawn is definitely a looker.

Those radixes are always on a mission.:D It's in their blood.
Suzy's awesome.;)

[gregmonsta]

Suzy's awesome.;)

An absolute handful .... in a good way ... :D always craving attention.

[guidofatherof5]

An absolute handful .... in a good way ... :D always craving attention.

Typical radix move.:D That's one reason I love them so much.

[gregmonsta]

Due to lack of students in the support class I ended up doing this -http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/gravid.JPG

Blue - Suzy, Red - Fawn

Hey I even managed to put the wrong numbers in for Suzy .... terrible .... should be 263 at the 256 mark

[gregmonsta]

:rolleyes: Typically I had something interesting to report when the server was having it's move ....

Suzy had stopped feeding on 29/01 and Fawn on 10/02. Me being me I continue to offer something even when a snake is off its food (just in case).

My surprise came on 18/02. Fawn decided she was going to have a helping of salmon (I gave her the equivalent of 2 pinkies worth). Suzy also showed interested ... had half a pinkies worth and then stopped :rolleyes:

I always seem to get the weird ones.

[gregmonsta]

Both girls are giving that lumpy feel when gliding through my hands now. Suzy is also starting to get 'bottom heavy' :rolleyes:

[guidofatherof5]

Let's go little scrubs.

[gregmonsta]

I think I'll be ordering lobworms tomorrow just to make sure .... Saturday will be around the 60 day mark since both girls met their respective partners ;) .... should really have some handy.

[sawmane 1]

i would like to ask a question on the fact of hungry snakes (since i dont know how to post new threads) mine wont eat! he is a baby about a foot long and ate once shed and then never ate again! I got him 20 days ago and he has eaten 1 time.

[mb90078]

i would like to ask a question on the fact of hungry snakes (since i dont know how to post new threads) mine wont eat! he is a baby about a foot long and ate once shed and then never ate again! I got him 20 days ago and he has eaten 1 time.

What food items have you offered?

[Stefan-A]

i would like to ask a question on the fact of hungry snakes (since i dont know how to post new threads) mine wont eat! he is a baby about a foot long and ate once shed and then never ate again! I got him 20 days ago and he has eaten 1 time.
Go to the appropriate forum section and click the button that says New Thread above the list of existing threads.

[sawmane 1]

What food items have you offered?
i have tried worms and tiny fish

[gregmonsta]

Suzy

29/12/2010 181g
08/01/2011 228g
16/01/2011 252g
25/01/2011 269g stopped feeding
02/02/2011 263g
10/02/2011 258g
14/02/2011 254g one small piece of salmon-18th-stopped feeding again
23/02/2011 250g


Fawn

29/12/2010 164g
08/01/2011 165g
16/01/2011 196g
25/01/2011 204g
02/02/2011 211g
10/02/2011 229g stopped feeding
14/02/2011 220g shed + back on food from the 18th
23/02/2011 216g

Suzy is back to refusing food. She seems a lot closer to delivery than Fawn and is slowly looking more and more 'bottom heavy'. Fawn is back on food although I'm limiting her to smaller pieces of Salmon while she'll take them.

[guidofatherof5]

Do I hear "Dueling Banjos" in the background.:D

[gregmonsta]

Dada dee da dee da dee da .... :p .... I'm fairly sure Suzy will win this one :rolleyes:

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/djodsjock.JPG

[Snaky]

Looking promising :)

[gregmonsta]

It does indeed Hans :D ... here's hoping Sagria will be ready to produce similar stats next year ;)

Just changed the water a few moments ago (after an enjoyable round of spot-cleaning and testing out the new substrate).
Suzy was all over the place ... climbing out of the tub ... over the bed ... up my arms ...
Last detectable 'bump' is now about 1.5" from the cloaca :rolleyes:

[gregmonsta]

Suzy has been acting the water baby the last couple of days ... either head in 'playing about' (searching) and just moments ago she decided on a soak .... weird beast.

[kibakiba]

Mama is like that, too. She's either in her pink blanket throne or swimming around in her water dish.

[gregmonsta]

Suzy

29/12/2010 181g
08/01/2011 228g
16/01/2011 252g
25/01/2011 269g stopped feeding
02/02/2011 263g
10/02/2011 258g
14/02/2011 254g one small piece of salmon-18th-stopped feeding again
23/02/2011 250g
03/03/2011 244g

Fawn

29/12/2010 164g
08/01/2011 165g
16/01/2011 196g
25/01/2011 204g
02/02/2011 211g
10/02/2011 229g stopped feeding
14/02/2011 220g shed + back on food from the 18th
23/02/2011 216g
03/03/2011 223g

:rolleyes: waiting, waiting, waiting ... after consulting with other parietalis owners I know I'm still waiting for a bit there (90day average).
Of course, after Steve's early radix records I'm hoping for Suzy to go .... any day? .... At any rate, don't want her to continue not taking in food for too much longer.
Come on squigglies!!!

I make it 67 days since pairing at present.

[guidofatherof5]

Daisy was 57 days.

[gregmonsta]

:p I know you git ... :rolleyes: stop rubbing my nose in it with your miracle breeders!!!

[gregmonsta]

Today's fun and games included Fawn launching herself out of her tub in her quest for food. It's possible she's dulling down for another shed but I can't be certain on this yet.
Suzy, on the other hand, was launching simply for attention (which she got, of course ;) ) ... she was halfway up my stomach before I'd even put the lid down. Poor girly hasn't eaten a square meal for over a month now. Not that its stopping any of her normal behaviour. Gotto be soon :rolleyes:

[gregmonsta]

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/Chart_current.JPG

[Stefan-A]

Still nothing, eh.

[gregmonsta]

Nada, nichts, rien, etc .... :o

[gregmonsta]

Suzy

29/12/2010 181g
08/01/2011 228g
16/01/2011 252g
25/01/2011 269g stopped feeding
02/02/2011 263g
10/02/2011 258g
14/02/2011 254g one small piece of salmon-18th-stopped feeding again
23/02/2011 250g
03/03/2011 244g
11/03/2011 242g

Fawn

29/12/2010 164g
08/01/2011 165g
16/01/2011 196g
25/01/2011 204g
02/02/2011 211g
10/02/2011 229g stopped feeding
14/02/2011 220g shed + back on food from the 18th
23/02/2011 216g
03/03/2011 223g
11/03/2011 229g

A little stressed today ... Call me a worrywort but I'm allowed to be after last year.
I moved Suzy back into the main enclosure today. She's been fairly active over the last week and didn't seem to be thermo-regulating as she should. While handling her today she felt cold (noticeably) yet didn't seem to want to know about the warm spot in her tub (yet the set-up is fine and the temp at 30C). Yet - as soon as I put her in the normal abode she found the warm hide and has been there ever since.
She's obviously not a fan of tub life (I can honestly say that none of my snakes see this as a preferential place to live) whereas Fawn doesn't seem to care and spends all of her time on the hotspot.
Just hope it hasn't compromised anything.

[guidofatherof5]

OK, you're a worrywort.

Hope all turns out good. Prayers coming your way.;)

[gregmonsta]

Thanks Steve. The fact she hasn't eaten for over a month now bugs me too (not that I haven't been there before) .... even tried offering a worm today ... nada

[gregmonsta]

Big booty!!!! ... Suzy's stock has mooved South from the looks of it. Seeming a little difficult moving her butt about.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/bigbooty2.JPG

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/bigbooty.JPG

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/bigbooty4.JPG

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/bigbooty3.JPG

Still doesn't want food .... and after being very active (wanting to get out of her tub) she's been spending all her time in the warm hide of her normal enclosure.

[ConcinusMan]

OK, you're a worrywort.

Yes, you are Greg. I nearly always see this happen with my concinnus girls in the late stages, usually that last 20 days or so. They will refuse food during that time or barely eat anything and they also seem to stay on the cool side whereas the majority of their pregnancy was all about staying very warm and massive intake of food.

Take a good look at her entire body. Feel her as you hold her. Does she feel weak when she moves, does she seem limp, stiff, or without energy? I think you'll find she has excellent muscle tone and she definitely doesn't look malnourished. All excess baggage aside, she's pretty thick and strong looking. No worries.

If she continues to refuse food for weeks after the babies come, and starts to get weak and sort of deteriorate, then worry.

[gregmonsta]

She's not quite 100% on her usual perkyness but that will be down to the load she's carrying. Feeling really lumpy today .... Hurry up squiggs!!!! :D

[ConcinusMan]

She's not quite 100% on her usual perkyness but that will be down to the load she's carrying.

Nothing unusual about that. Won't be long now!

[gregmonsta]

Yesterday, day 78 - About 19.30 Suzy started delivery. 25 homeless snails so far (to the weight of 30g), I had a quick feel and she's still got 2/3 to squeeze out. A rather disappointing slugfest I'm afraid :o .... I did get some video footage last night and will ping up a few photos shortly.

[gregmonsta]

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/squezze.JPG

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/squezze2.JPG

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/squezze3.JPG

[Stefan-A]

A shame about the slugs.

[gregmonsta]

Aye ... it would have been one Hell of a litter for her 'first' time :rolleyes: ... nevermind ... After the few slugs she put out last year without male contact I thought she would have been ready to pull it off this year. We'll see what 2012 does ... mind you, she may try again this year knowing her.

[guidofatherof5]

Sorry but the no-show on the babies.
My best to that beautiful radix.;)

[PINJOHN]

really disappointed for you Greg i know from following your post just how much [emotionally] you had invested in the expected babies i'll bet the word gutted doesn't come close.:(
in a feeble effort to cheer you up, you now have no shortage of sweets for those horrible kids who live next door :rolleyes:

[ConcinusMan]

Who wants to name them?

D'OH!

That sucks Greg:(

[gregmonsta]

Thanks guys, currently - 27 slugs at 33g
I can feel 2 more inside of her and if she hasn't shifted these by tomorrow I'll be going for warm baths and massage therapy ... and then she'll get the same treatment :p

[NikkiSixx]

i'm sorry to hear that.... :(


warm baths and massage therapy ... and then she'll get the same treatment :p


I call next!!:D

[guidofatherof5]

Is the photo above her pushing them down and out.
Looks like some upper body contractions going on?:confused:

[ConcinusMan]

Well they sure as heck aren't going to crawl out on their own.:cool:

[gregmonsta]

Is the photo above her pushing them down and out?
Looks like some upper body contractions going on?:confused:

The pic is from just before slug number 4. Not sure what you mean mate ... she was pushing downward in periodic waves and would start from her mid section adjusting to where the slugs started.
Hoping to post a vid tomorrow ;)

[ConcinusMan]

so pretty much what they do no matter if they are alive or not.

[gregmonsta]

so pretty much what they do no matter if they are alive or not.

Zigzacktly, from the videos I've seen ;)

[ConcinusMan]

Reminds me of squeezing toothpaste or frosting through a tube.

[gregmonsta]

She just took a small meal ... I may wait and let her digest this for an extra day me thinks ... poor girl looked like she needed it.

[gregmonsta]

Fawn

29/12/2010 164g
08/01/2011 165g
16/01/2011 196g
25/01/2011 204g
02/02/2011 211g
10/02/2011 229g stopped feeding
14/02/2011 220g shed + back on food from the 18th
23/02/2011 216g
03/03/2011 223g
11/03/2011 229g
19/03/2011 253g

:rolleyes: and still munching.

Suzy update - she hates water. I can't be sure if these bumps I'm feeling are actually retained slugs. Gentle massaging the bump near the cloaca has yielded no results leading me to believe I'm just feeling swollen tissue from the birthing process.
At any rate, for lack of someone experienced close by, she'll be making a vet visit next week.

[Stefan-A]

Hoping for the best. It should be rock solid if it's retained eggs.

I expect my tetrataenia to throw her yearly slugs soon and she had a bit of trouble last year. I'm also checking my vagrans every few days, just in case she retained some, but so far so good.

[gregmonsta]

Cheers ;) crossing fingers.

[gregmonsta]

NDqaQJcoM7M

[guidofatherof5]

Too bad about the slugs. Glad mom is doing OK.
Great background music.
It was nice of the members of your group to cut a birthing track for the video:D

[ConcinusMan]

She just took a small meal ... I may wait and let her digest this for an extra day me thinks ... poor girl looked like she needed it.

I read about controlled studies done on T. radix and T. s. parietalis which concluded that the food intake after fertilization has no effect on the health and mass offspring but it has a direct effect on the mother's mass once she has her babies. This seems to support what I have observed. Last year, two of my girls ate very little and fasted for the last 3 weeks of pregnancy. Those two were all "caved in" after they had their babies. The girl that continued to eat vigorously during all but the last 5 days of her pregnancy didn't look so bad after she had them, and bounced back very quickly.

Did your girl not eat well during pregnancy?

[gregmonsta]

Did your girl not eat well during pregnancy?

Ate like a champion at the start and then refused food for the last 6 weeks of pregnancy.

[ConcinusMan]

Oooh. Not so good. Probably why she looks so caved in and starved looking. Hopefully she'll eat enough now and really pound down the food. I've had a lot of trouble with snakes when they don't eat during pregnancy and/or bounce back quickly. Seems like if they don't pull out of it and bounce back fast, they just never do well after that.

[gregmonsta]

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/Chart_current1.JPG

[Stefan-A]

Damn that Fawn. :D Not planning on levelling out, eh?

[gregmonsta]

Damn that Fawn. :D Not planning on levelling out, eh?

What can I say ... :rolleyes: none of my females seem to want to play by the book ... I do tend to go for the crazy ones ... appears to be carrying over to my squamata :o.

[Stefan-A]

Yeah, but those crazy ones make life a bit more interesting.

[gregmonsta]

Yeah, but those crazy ones make life a bit more interesting.

;) too true :D

[Mommy2many]

Go Fawn!

[gregmonsta]

Go Fawn!

:rolleyes: She's going alright! 89g gained since mating. :o Will Mr. Greg finally get some snake babies to coo over?

It's a gamble ... first litter at less than 2 years old ... but she is one Hell of a grower. I still can't believe that she almost matched Suzy in length and weight in her first year.

Refusing to make predictions, what will be will be.

On another note - my typical luck has dictated that Suzy will not be able to see the vet until next Wednesday (Local vet on Holiday/other vet at a conference .... yet again :mad:)

[gregmonsta]

:rolleyes: Fawn refused food today ... clock is ticking.

On another note Suzy is still refusing food :(.

[gregmonsta]

Back from the vet today. Suzy has a suspected infection of her ovaries which is apparently quite common. This is one of the bumps I thought was there. The other, closer to the cloaca, has dissapeared so was obviously just inflamed tissue post partum. She's on a course of baytril to help her along. If this doesn't resolve the issue she'll be getting X-rayed next Wed.

[guidofatherof5]

Hoping Suzy heals quickly. She's in our prayers.

[gregmonsta]

Hoping Suzy heals quickly. She's in our prayers.

Thanks mate.

Fawn is still refusing food and is starting to have active moments :rolleyes:

[Mommy2many]

Again I say, Go Fawn!!!

[gregmonsta]

Right ... Suzy's problem is not an infected ovary but a definite retained slug at the very start of the oviduct. From the fact that the slugs felt relatively solid the vet rekons that she was looking at producing a second 'litter' prior to brumation (last years batch of slugs were quite squishy ... if nothing passes after 48hours through the oxytocin she received today then it's surgery next week .... I'm leaving for Ireland next Thursday :(:mad::(

Fawn's restleness is picking up.

[Stefan-A]

Damn.

[gregmonsta]

Damn.

Damn and blast!!!

[BLUESIRTALIS]

I hope everything works out just fine.

[Stefan-A]

Damn and blast!!!
Oh damn, damn, damn. Oh damn, damn and blast it.

[RicMartin]

Ouch! Hope things work out.

[guidofatherof5]

Keep us posted. Hope things turn out well.

[gregmonsta]

Cheers guys ... the oxytocin didn't work out. She's to stay on Baytril and is booked in for the op on Wednesday.

[Mommy2many]

Hoping the best for her, Greg.

[zirliz]

oh no I hope your snake gets better :(

good luck with her and fawn

[gregmonsta]

Well ... still not babies from Fawn (we're hitting day 117).

Suzy's big op tomorrow. I've arranged for her to be taken care of at the local reptile shop while I'm touring Ireland. My ex is watching the rest of them for me, including Fawn.

I'll be away until next Wednesday and hope to update you guys with lots of good news for a change :o

[Mommy2many]

We are also hoping for good news!

[gregmonsta]

Well .... Suzy seems to be doing well after her op. She's still on a daily dose of baytril and is seeming a little more normal actually.

Fawn still hasn't produced anything ...

[guidofatherof5]

Hang in there.
Keep us posted.

[gregmonsta]

Roight ... Suzy has really perked up and is off the Baytril.

Fawn has still yielded nada ... day 133?

[guidofatherof5]

Great news on Suzy. Glad to hear it.

Hoping Fawn delivers soon.;)

[gregmonsta]

Cheers mate :)

[gregmonsta]

Fawn has spent most of the day producing orange lumpings ... boogers ...

[Stefan-A]

Oh, darn.

[guidofatherof5]

That's a shame.
I hope she will be OK.

[gregmonsta]

She seems to be finished and she feels clear (no questionable bumps). I'll leave her overnight and then will check again. At first glance I counted 10+ slugs.

[Mommy2many]

So sorry to hear there are no babies:(

[gregmonsta]

It could be worse LeAnn, it was her first litter so it was on the cards. She's doing well :) ... she fed today.

[guidofatherof5]

It could be worse LeAnn, it was her first litter so it was on the cards. She's doing well :) ... she fed today.

Glad to hear she's feeding. Good news.