Diary of a snake (and her girl)...

[EasternGirl]

I have decided to start a diary of my interactions with Selena...since I am a first time snake owner, it could be interesting. I am always noticing little things and getting excited...my family just thinks that I am going insane...but I know that you guys will appreciate what I have to say!

This morning I figured something out...it took me a while, but I can be kind of slow sometimes...lol. I've been noticing that Selena is getting used to me...trying to make up to me. She hears my voice (or senses the vibrations of such) and pops out to look at me...she sees my face and recognizes me and slithers over to get a closer look and then sits and stares at me. However, when I open her enclosure and put my hand in to try to hold her, she freaks out still.

It suddenly occured to me that she does not associate my hands with my face...she doesn't know that it is the same person that belongs to the face and the hands. She recognizes the face, but when she sees the hand coming toward her, she just sees the "big scary white thing" coming at her. Lol! Perhaps she will soon learn the connection...

[guidofatherof5]

You are right, it should be an interesting thread. Glad you started it.
If you are coming into her enclosure from the top she is just protecting herself. Most predators attack from the top.
For this reason I have front opening enclosures. They are so much more relaxed as they can see me coming.
Looking forward to future installments of your diary.

[infernalis]

Ahh the joys of garter snakes....

[EasternGirl]

Well, she let me pick her up for the first time without trying to get away. I was just moving her from her feeding cage back to her home...she of course would not let me hold her for very long. She also let me sit and pet her for a couple of minutes....with her still in her enclosure.

I have noticed she plays little games with me. She likes to bury herself completely and then I will sit there and call to her...and then she pops her little head out. I guess it's her version of "peek-a-boo"...lol.

[ConcinusMan]

Or perhaps it's just that she wants to hide but can't resist the urge to find out what the heck is making all that noise. Garters are like that. Very inquisitive. Always checking things out.

[kibakiba]

That is cute! Mine just lay around and wait for food, with the occasional attempt to get out or my little special baby (Tiny) trying to climb and failing. ;)

[EasternGirl]

Tonight...she let me pet her again. I stuck my face in her enclosure and she inched up to me and held her little head up and let me stroke her back. Of course when I tried to pick her up...she fled for cover...but I think we're getting somewhere.

She did the cutest thing tonight...she buried her entire body in substrate but left her little head popped out and resting on the enclosure. I wanted to take a pic, but if I opened the enclosure, she would have hid her head.

[kibakiba]

Snap and Ember do that too. :D It's so cute seeing them poking their heads out. My other babies don't do it, though.

[EasternGirl]

Selena has decided that she is uncomfortable in her feeding cage. I have to put it on top of her regular enclosure in order to get her to eat. If I do that, and leave the room....when I come back, her food is gone. Then she wants to go home...so I put her back in her regular enclosure, and she's fat and happy.

[guidofatherof5]

The good thing is she's eating.
Socialization/trust will come in time.
Keep up the good work.

[EasternGirl]

Two things: Selena is eating every day and she is not defacating a lot. Her middle looks quite fat now..and I'm worried that she is not passing her food properly. What do you guys think?

Also...Richard, I was reading your posts to the new guy...the one that had the SF garter in the tub...I'm starting to worry that Selena is not active enough. She hides most of the time...she comes out maybe once a day and explores. Do you think it is just because she is still scared? Perhaps she doesn't have enough light. I'm going to the pet store today to see about a 20 gallon tank...and if I can afford it, I might buy a flourescent lamp. I need to move her into my bedroom when I get her in the tank because she is in the dining room now...and there won't be enough room. Unfortunately, the lighting in my bedroom is poor. She will probably need more light. What do you think?

[ConcinusMan]

It certainly can't hurt. They often perk up with more light and a natural spectrum. Still, it could be she's still nervous, and every snake is different. I have CB radixes that are active and I have others that are reclusive. Some are really friendly, others are downright mean. It's up to you to get to know them as individuals and adapt to make them as comfortable as possible but it doesn't necessarily mean they will like you for it. Some individuals just don't like human interaction.

At this point I wouldn't worry so much that she's not active. She's eating and that's good.

[EasternGirl]

Well, as I'm sure you will see, I finally got her a nice enclosure. She seems to be happier in it, and is moving around much more. I moved her into my bedroom, which is quite warm...so I don't think she will need heat from underneath. I'm going to buy a flourescent lamp for her so that she has more light. She ate another pinkie today!

[guidofatherof5]

Well, as I'm sure you will see, I finally got her a nice enclosure. She seems to be happier in it, and is moving around much more. I moved her into my bedroom, which is quite warm...so I don't think she will need heat from underneath. I'm going to buy a flourescent lamp for her so that she has more light. She ate another pinkie today!


Please consider some type of heat source. I recommend under tank heating but this is subject to personal opinions.
Allowing your snake to self regulate its own temp is natural for them. At times they want to be heated up and at time they want to be cooler. I think the additional heat can aid in digestion and help fight off illnesses.
I find my snakes moving from the warm side to the cooler side all the time or vis versa. This allows them to decide were they are the most comfortable or when additional heat is required.
Just my opinion.;)

[EasternGirl]

So you don't think it will be too much if I put the heating pad under the same side as the basking lamp? It gets so warm in my room sometimes...I just don't want her to get too hot or burn herself...she likes to bury herself under the substrate and lie at the bottom on the glass sometimes...I worry she'll get burned.

[guidofatherof5]

So you don't think it will be too much if I put the heating pad under the same side as the basking lamp? It gets so warm in my room sometimes...I just don't want her to get too hot or burn herself...she likes to bury herself under the substrate and lie at the bottom on the glass sometimes...I worry she'll get burned.

I may have misunderstood something. I didn't know you had a basking light. You don't need both.

[EasternGirl]

Oh, okay...good. I think she is warm enough. Oops...my cat just found the snake! Luckily he can't get to her...but I don't think she wants a big gray fuzzy thing starring at her through the glass! Lol...

[guidofatherof5]

Be very careful. Cats cause many injuries and deaths to garter snakes in and outside the house.
Cats like to stand/lay on the screen tops.
Please be careful.

[ConcinusMan]

Yes, definitely be careful! If you have a cat it might be best to go with bottom heat and florescent light, and make sure it's absolutely cat proof. A curious cat can spell disaster by knocking over basking lamps, and myriad of other mischievous actions.

The kind of setup I showed you in my video is not good for households with cats. You would need the top screen to be locked down secure and use bottom heat. No heat lamps on top! Otherwise there is a real risk to your household and the snake. Don't underestimate a cat's strength and ability when he is intent on getting to the snake.

Rather than try to keep the cat out of the room, it's best to have a setup where it doesn't matter if the cat gets in.

[EasternGirl]

Wow...I had no idea. I have three cats, actually. So far, they haven't expressed much interest in Selena....they are all old cats. The enclosure I got for her has a slide lid that locks...so I'm not worried about that. I will lock the cats out of my room if I leave. But now...I should not have the basking dome lamp and the flourescent lamp on top? If I'm sitting in the room with her...then I can use the basking lamp, right? She likes to lie under it. So at night..and when I am not around, I should use underneath heat? What kind specifically?

[EasternGirl]

Update on Selena....

Well, she is adjusting to her new enclosure. One problem...she can't figure out how to burrow in the new Carefresh substrate that I got for her. I switched over from the aspen that I was using because I was worried that it would get into her food. I don't know if she can't figure out how to do it or if she isn't strong enough...she pushes her little head against it but doesn't get anywhere. I put some of the aspen in a little corner for her so she would be more comfortable for now. What is the best substrate to use for small garters?

She loves her big plant in the middle of her enclosure...she loves to just lie there on it at the top or hide in the middle of it. She also has a plant that hangs down the side, and she likes to slide down it or climb to the top and try to figure out how to escape!

[kibakiba]

My small ones, even Tiny and Squirt (only 2.5 inches long) can burrow in it, so I don't see why she can't. Also, are you still going to want that night lamp? I believe we're heading to Bridge's Pets tomorrow for the light and some pinkies for my little ones, but if you aren't going to use it then it wouldn't make sense to buy it :)

[EasternGirl]

Yeah...I don't know what her problem is...maybe she just isn't used to it yet. Yes, I would still like the bulb if you can get it...I put the 40 watt on last night, but worried all night that it was too hot for her. Thanks again, Chantel!

[kibakiba]

Alright, we're heading there tomorrow. I can't wait to go, the snakes are looking forward to a meal of pinkie and salmon.

[EasternGirl]

Yay! Selena ate another pinkie yesterday.

[EasternGirl]

I wonder if I should be feeding Selena supplements...she eats both earthworms and pinkies so maybe not? Also...I wonder about the water I give her. I give her filtered water...is that okay?

[ConcinusMan]

Stop worrying so much. You're doing fine. Any clean water that is decent quality that you would drink is fine. I use plain tap water, letting it sit for a day before I put it in their dish. Most tap water or spring water has minerals in it too, such as calcium. Pinkies have much of the nutrients you would find in a reptile supplement. Personally, I don't use supplements if they'll eat a varied diet including whole fish and rodents. For a snake that only eats slugs or worms, a little supplement once a month is fine.

[guidofatherof5]

I would think that a twice a month sprinkling of supp. wouldn't be a problem. Some would say no and others will say yes. Examine the info. you gather and make your own decision.
I use supplements once or twice a month.
Here's what I use:
Rep-Cal Supplements (http://www.repcal.com/supp.htm#Ultrafine)
Third product down: Pink lable.

Rep-Cal Calcium with Vitamin D3
Phosphorous - Free Ultrafine powder

[EasternGirl]

Thanks Richard and Steve. Richard...you will come to find that I am a complete worrier. I worry about my son, my dog, my cats, my snake...all my kids! Total over-protective mother...lol.

[kibakiba]

I'm worried about everything too. If my snakes do something I haven't seen before, I really worry about them. It always ends up being something normal.

[EasternGirl]

Right...for example, Selena has not woken up yet...she is somewhere hiding in her new enclosure..an it's so big, I can't find her. So, of course I will worry until she comes out...lol.

[guidofatherof5]

Selena is thinking "come'on Mom, give me a break":D

[EasternGirl]

I think my son probably thinks that a lot...lol. Well, good news Steve and Richard...Selena has been moved into my son's room...high up where no cats can get to her. She will be very safe in there. My son enjoys helping to take care of her too...and he thought "it would be a good idea to put her in his room too"...lol. The only concern is that my son's room can get quite cold...she is near a drafty window. I think that if I put a towel over the end of her enclosure that is near the window and make sure to keep her heat lamp on at night...she will be okay. If need be, I'll will add the heating pad underneath.

[EasternGirl]

Update on Selena...She has let me picked her up the last couple of days without trying to get away. She even lets me hold her for a minute or two. She is the master at hiding...she can find places to hide in her enclosure that it would take me hours to find her! She eats worms every day...and a pinkie a couple of times a week. She is growing!

Funny side thing...my son is half Mexican. My ex-husband is from the old country in Mexico. Where he is from, they don't really keep domestic pets. Dogs work on the ranch...cats run around on farms. They don't keep pets inside. When I first met my ex-husband, he had a hard time getting used to me having a dog and cats as pets. Snakes, where he is from, are usually large, poisonous and feared. No one keeps snakes as pets.

I am close to my brother-in-law, his wife, and their daughters. My sister-in-law cleans for me once a week. I do believe that side of my family now thinks that I have gone completely bonkers because I have a snake living in my house. My ex thinks she's interesting...he comes over and he will look at her and listen to my updates on how she is doing. My brother-in-law won't even look at her. My sister-in-law watches me cut up worms to feed her and thinks I am completely insane. I told her today that I will probably get another snake in the spring and she looked at me like I just told her I was going to keep a serial killer as a pet. I think it is quite amusing...

I should invite my friend and her python over..put the python around my neck the next time my family comes to visit, and answer the door like that...hahaha...:eek:

[guidofatherof5]

I should invite my friend and her python over..put the python around my neck the next time my family comes to visit, and answer the door like that...hahaha...:eek:

Get it on video.:D

[EasternGirl]

Today's News:

I moved Selena into my son's room. It will be better for her in there because the cats can't get to her. But I noticed something interesting. When she was in my bedroom, she was very active...moving all around her enclosure...peeking her head out, and coming up to see my face and stare at it often. I moved her into my son's room early this morning, and she hid all day. I started to worry...to think that she didn't like the move at all. Finally, I went in there tonight and pet her and talked to her for a while, coaxing her to come out. I also added a flourescent light for her. Suddenly, she came out and started exploring her enclosure...coming up to my face closely to look at me again. I started talking to her a lot and taking pictures of her. She became really active. And then something occured to me...I hadn't really been in to see her much today...I had been out most of the afternoon and evening. I think she wanted attention! She seemed to be fine once I was in the room with her..and my son was in there..and she really became active when I was taking her picture. My conclusion: Selena is a little princess that likes to be the center of attention! Lol...:rolleyes:

I got a new camera today...here is a new pic:

[ConcinusMan]

The only concern is that my son's room can get quite cold...she is near a drafty window. I think that if I put a towel over the end of her enclosure that is near the window and make sure to keep her heat lamp on at night...she will be okay. If need be, I'll will add the heating pad underneath.

It's quite alright to get a bit chilly at night. My snakes sometimes get down to around 60 at night(actually, early in the morning before the lights comes on) this time of year, and the only heat on at night is a very low temperature heat pad for the babies.(keeps it at least 70 at night for them) No others get any heat at night. Drafts are bad though. Maybe the different smells, a draft, or something else made her want to hide. Garters do that anyway. They do have days when they just want to hide and rest. I doubt they want our attention.

That 20 gallon setup with the babies in it that I have, had almost no activity today. It happens from time to time. I try not to disturb them when they're having a day like that. They'll come out when they're ready. I'm pretty sure that will be tomorrow, because after skipping a meal today, I'm sure they'll be hungry and will come out wondering where their food is.

[kibakiba]

I got that light for you. We exchanged it for a lamp that burnt out on us in 5 days, so it gave us 2 extra dollars ;). We also have a little box to put it in. We just need to get it all ready to ship.Might be a couple days before we can ship it off. We don't have a car, so it makes it hard to get rides to places sometimes. :)

[EasternGirl]

That's great, Chantel...and don't worry..take your time. I just appreciate your help. Now I just need to find a flourescent lamp for Selena. The ones at the pet stores cost a fortune...and the hardware store near my house was out of them. Right now I have an old desk lamp with a flourescent bulb in it pointed at her enclosure. I'm going to go to Home Depot this weekend to see if I can find a hooded flourescent to set on top of the enclosure.

How are all of your snakes doing?

I held Selena several times today. She seems to be getting used to me. She doesn't try to get away as much...she spends some time lingering in my hand and trying to crawl along my sleeve. She is hiding tonight, though...so maybe I will leave her alone tomorrow. She ate another pinkie today.

[kibakiba]

My snakes are doing great, I have suspicions about Mama's status. She's been a bit restless and overly hungry lately. I can only hope she's not gravid. I'd like to have her give birth around spring or summer, so I can release the babies. Tiny is about to shed again, and she's a big blob now. She's been stuffing herself with pinkie parts. Ember and Snap are growing faster than weeds, but got in a fight over the smell of pinkie in my room. I'm going to be monitoring them for the night.

Don't bother with pet store florescent lights, they're no different from any others from what I can tell.

[EasternGirl]

Yeah...that is exactly what Richard told me about lights. As far as Mama goes, you could put the babies up for adoption on here, couldn't you? If need be..I mean. How often do snakes usually shed? I did read your post about Ember and Snap biting each other on the mouth...that is scary! I hope they are okay. Do you have pics of your snakes on here?

Totally off topic...I should so be asleep right now. I have to go register for school at 9 in the morning....I can't sleep! Ugh!

[kibakiba]

It would be illegal for me to sell them, I think.
Snakes shed when they need to, if they're going through a growth spurt they will fairly fast. My 4 month old northwesterns shed once every 3 weeks, my concinnus have once every couple weeks. My adults, well it's been about 6 months or more between sheds, Mama shed's a bit more than Snakey, but she's still getting fatter.

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah...that is exactly what Richard told me about lights.

Actually, I was referring to the incandescent basking bulb. A regular flood lamp style bulb would do. You don't need to get the reptile basking bulbs and pay $15.

The only florescent lights I have used for them were Reptisun bulbs. Not exactly cheap but again, I watched for them online and snatched some up for $3 each. The pet store sells them for around $18.

I don't know if the benefit would be the same if you just used any florescent bulb. I've only used the reptisun bulbs. Any florescent bulb mimicking a natural spectrum should do though.

[ConcinusMan]

It would be illegal for me to sell them, I think. Mama shed's a bit more than Snakey, but she's still getting fatter.

She didn't say sell but I think maybe you have a gravid girl on your hands. Don't worry, they don't have big litters. Biggest litter I've seen was 7 but it's usually between 2-5.

[kibakiba]

True but it still seems like it could considered selling. I can't afford shipping, either, if I had to.

[ConcinusMan]

The adopting party pays shipping. You charge nothing for the snakes, that's not selling. Anyway, don't worry. They don't have a lot of babies, and it just might be safe to release them by the time they come. It was 2 months from the time I noticed my red stripe girl getting fat. That would be March. Even if it's still rather cold out, they would be OK outside in March.

[kibakiba]

Cool, I guess we'll see what happens when it happens. if I do decide to adopt them out it might be a little hard but it'd be worth giving them a home that could care for them better than I could.

[ConcinusMan]

I would probably just release them where you found other northwesterns. Seriously, by the time they do come, the worst of winter will be over. Should be above freezing at night by then. They'll be fine even if the weather is wet and cold to you and me.

I see tiny one's sitting on top of fallen trees, (rotting logs) even in February, when the sun comes out and it's only in the upper 40's. They instinctively know how to survive and find shelter. They live in and under those logs when it's cold. The rotting generates warmth.

[kibakiba]

Snakey, Tiny and Squirt were found in my yard, while Mama and Runt were found a half a mile away from my house. We have fallen trees on the side of our yard, I'll probably put them there.

[EasternGirl]

You know the funny thing is...I see people talking about going out herping....in the Spring, I only have to walk out into my backyard and it will be a herpfest. My entire yard is completely overrun by garters...you can see the burrows everywhere and we see them all over our yard, and they come into our basement. Speaking of which, I found a snake in the fall living under our steps outside that I believe to be Selena's mom. Do you think she would have made it through this cold winter we are having? I have often wondered if she is okay under there.

Another question...how long do snakes gestate?

[kibakiba]

We used to have thousands of garters in our yard every year. You couldn't take a step without hundreds of babies slithering away from your foot. There was a BIG pond on the pond next to us, but the company filled it up. After that, there weren't garters anywhere. The 7 I have were pretty much the only ones I had seen for 2 years other than Malady.

Garters have good instincts when it comes to the cold, they brumate during the cold temperatures. I'm pretty sure she'll make it.

Garters usually gestate for around 2-3 months.

[EasternGirl]

Well, it's very odd that I have so many in my yard because I live in a residential area. What is even stranger is that no one around me has snakes in their yard...just us. Weird huh?

I hope that big mama snake is okay...it's been so cold here!

Is it possible that Selena could be gravid? She was so small when I got her...at what age do they begin mating? The way she eats and the way her middle is getting so wide..it makes me wonder.

Do you have pics of your snakes on here, Chantel? I would love to see them!

[kibakiba]

I doubt she'd be gravid, maybe just really well fed ;) They start mating more at a certain weight, I believe. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. And also, from what I've seen of gravid garters, is their lower 1/3 of their body gets bigger less than their middle section.


I have quiet a few on my Meet the gang! thread. I've been meaning to take pictures of each snake and post them, but life gets in the way. ;) They've changed a lot.

[EasternGirl]

Oh...duh! I just went to look at your pics and then remembered looking at them before. Lovely snakies you have there.

I was wondering...I have heard people talk about deworming snakes and checking for parasites too. Should that be something I should have done with Selena since she was wild?

[guidofatherof5]

Having a fecal float done is a good precaution. A clean fecal is a good place to start a medical history on a snake.
Intestinal parasites are picked up very easily, especially with a diet that includes frogs and salamanders.
Goldfish and minnows(not safe for garters) not only have thiaminase but carry a large parasite load.

[kibakiba]

I haven't done that. I don't think I ever will, unless there was a problem with one of them. It just costs way too much money. If you have the money to spare, I guess it wouldn't hurt. From what you say Selena seems pretty healthy.

[guidofatherof5]

Garters can live with parasites for a long time, lifetime in fact.
The problem comes when the infestation is severe or the snakes health get compromised by injury or infection. Then the parasites can expedite death.
Also, if you keep more than one snake together they all can become infected.
I'm with you on the high cost of the test $37.50 here in Iowa.

[kibakiba]

We've called multiple places around here, and each place was over $50 for a parasite test. One, that seemed most reputable and had an actual snake/reptile specialist was $150, just for a test.

[guidofatherof5]

We've called multiple places around here, and each place was over $50 for a parasite test. One, that seemed most reputable and had an actual snake/reptile specialist was $150, just for a test.

Wow. I'm feeling better about my area:D

[kibakiba]

You better, you're spoiled compared to us. ;) I'm sure there are cheaper ones somewhere, but within a 50 mile radius, our limit (Unless we want to be on a bus for 6-8 hours), it's not so cheap. I also believe I can't get vet service for a snake that's native to my area.
...unless... I lied. Mama might be able to pull off being a young female Eastern, maybe.

[guidofatherof5]

I doubt many local Vets. would know the difference in garter snakes.;)

[kibakiba]

Probably not. I wouldn't be surprised if I told them that and they believed me. The vets told me my collared mini macaw was a conure, I spent hours looking for what species. After turning up no results, I googled "collared macaw" and one of the results was a page about collared mini macaws, and there was Willy (our bird).

[ConcinusMan]

Another question...how long do snakes gestate?

Depends on the species, and the conditions. I can only speak for T. ordinoides, and T. sirtalis concinnus.

70-90 days for northwestern garters
90-115 days for Oregon Red Spotted

Some northwesterns mate in the fall, and give birth in late spring. Others mate in late winter/early spring and give birth in late summer.

T.s. concinnus' mate in April and give birth sometime in August.

You're right Steve, and so are you Chantel. Most vets in WA wouldn't know one garter from the other, and yes, it's illegal for them to treat native wildlife. As a result vets here just refuse to treat garters of any kind.

However, most would be willing to do a reptile fecal exam. All they need to know is that it's a reptile, and be provided with a fresh fecal sample (or several). If treatment is needed, all they need to know is that it's a snake, and it's weight in grams so you can give them the proper dose yourself.

As a teen, I made money by breeding and hand raising cockatiels. I also made money hand raising newborn macaws for other people over summer vacation. I loved doing it.

[EasternGirl]

Well, I'll bet you guys $150 bucks that it cost more than that here on the east coast. My vet bills for my dog are outrageous...about $300 everytime she sees the vet and has tests run. I do have a friend that is a vet, my dogs vet actually. She would be the one to get to run the test...but I doubt she knows anything about snakes at all. Knowing her, she would think it was very strange that I have a snake. Plus, I do know that it is illegal for vets to treat wildlife around here. She might do it for me as a friend though. Once, I found a opossum in the road that someone had hit and left to die. The thing was suffering and I couldn't leave it. I took it to a local vet ER and asked them to put it down. They wouldn't even let me in the door with it. I had to threaten to leave it on their doorstep to finally get them to agree to take it inside and euthanize it.

New topic...I finally got the garter books I ordered myself for Christmas today. Barron's Garter and Ribbon Snakes, and Quick and Easy Garter and Ribbon Snake Care. I'm so excited to start reading!

[EasternGirl]

Update on Selena...

I couldn't figure out why Selena has not been as active since she has been in my son's room as she was in my room. I realized today that apparently, the place in which her enclosure is situated allows for a reflection. I kept seeing her lift up her head and front of her body and stare straight ahead...looking terrified and frozen still and swaying a bit. I finally realized today that she is seeing her reflection in the glass...I think she thinks it's another snake! I tried to put a dark shirt over the place where the reflection is...but it didn't work...she's in there right now starring at herself and looking spooked. I don't know if there is a way to get rid of the reflection. I also put a small desk lamp with a metal neck with a flourescent bulb next to her enclosure for light...I can't afford to get a hooded flourescent lamp yet. She keeps starring at the lamp looking bugged out as well. She is a very skiddish snake.

[kibakiba]

Snakey does that a lot, only he thinks it's a pretty girl. I have them by a mirror. He stares at himself and courts with the mirror sometimes. It's so funny. I with I could get a video of him doing it. Mama will do it too, but she normally sits there and stares at herself.

[EasternGirl]

That would be so cool if you could get a video of that! Yeah, Selena obviously thinks it's a predator..the way she freezes so still and gets nervous. It's kind of funny but sad at the same time. I got a pic of it earlier but it turned out blurry.

[mustang]

haha
"hey aren't you supposed to be jiminy cricket?

[kibakiba]

Yeah, he seems to only do it when he isn't getting any from Mama. He's a silly boy.

[EasternGirl]

Hey you guys...I'm worried that Selena may have a respiratory infection. She seems to breathe heavy a lot and she does this thing sometimes that looks like a little sneeze or a cough. I didn't think anything of it...the breathing thing seems to happen when she sees me...so I thought it was just a fear thing. But then I was reading one of my new garter books and I was reading about respiratory infections and now I'm wondering if it is labored breathing and if she is sneezing or coughing.

[kibakiba]

Is there any fluid coming out of her nose, or any little bubbles? If she were sneezing, you'd see some stuff on the side of the tank, too. Sometimes Snap will breathe more heavily when I'm looking at her and stop once she either realizes that she isn't scaring me, or that she realizes it's just the thing that makes the yummy food appear. :D

[EasternGirl]

No...other than the weird sneeze looking thing, which may not even be a sneeze, and the breathing thing...she seems perfectly healthy.

[kibakiba]

It might just be her trying really hard to conceal herself or make herself look more puffed up. ;)

[EasternGirl]

It's hard to explain...she just starts breathing heavy when I look at her. I can see her sides expanding and contracting. She breathes heavy and fast. And the mouth thing...it's like this little twitch of her head and her mouth opens and shuts on one side real fast...but just a little...it's like a little tic.

[kibakiba]

That seems like what mama did when she hissed at me. Do you hear a hissing sound? It can be really faint sometimes. Maybe next time it happens really try to listen and see if you hear any sort of hissing sound. I've had both Snap and Mama hiss at me, Snap sounded more like a common hiss sound that you'd expect from a snake, and Mama made 2 different sounds. One sounded almost like... I want to say a long duck quack, if that makes sense and the other was a hiss with a quick ending. Like "sssk"

[EasternGirl]

Update on Selena...

I am starting to see a pattern...If I go into Selena's enclosure to find her (since she spends most of her time hiding) and I look around for her and then when I find her...pet her, but do not pick her up, and then put the lid back on her tank...it is guaranteed that a few minutes later, she will come out and stick her head up very close to the glass as if she is looking for me. She will then become active for a while. If I go into her enclosure and pick her up...she will immediately go into hiding for quite a while after I hold her. If I leave her completely alone, she will spend most of her time hiding buried under her substrate. She seems to like some attention, but not too much.


Here are some blurry pics of Selena...I got a new camera and for some reason, when I take pics through her tank...they're blurry...hopefully someday soon I can take pics of her outside the enclosure...

[kibakiba]

She looks good! She's probably so happy she has you, even if she doesn't show it all the time ;)

[ConcinusMan]

You probably have everything set to automatic on your camera don't you? It's focusing on the glass. I get around that by using a manual focus option.

[EasternGirl]

Ahh...Richard...that might be the problem...I'll check the settings on the camera, thanks. Chantel, I was wondering if she could be trying to do some sort of hiss or something to show me who's boss...it does sound like a little..."hsk"...it's so small and barely detectable, and her head twitches ever so slightly. Oh, that's cute if she's trying to hiss at me! I won't tell her that she isn't even slightly scary...lol.

Questions: How often do you guys clean your enclosures and what do you use to clean them? Do you clean all the plants as well?

I'm still uncertain as to how much I should be feeding Selena at a given feeding. I was giving her a half a worm everyday and a pinkie every couple of days. Does that sound good?

[gregmonsta]

Questions: How often do you guys clean your enclosures and what do you use to clean them? Do you clean all the plants as well?

I'm still uncertain as to how much I should be feeding Selena at a given feeding. I was giving her a half a worm everyday and a pinkie every couple of days. Does that sound good?

I spot clean the substrate on a regular basis and clean the whole enclosure + all furnishings approx once a month. I use Beaphar deep clean as a disinfectant.

The amount of feeding depends on the snake. I only offer food every four days. Usually 1 pink or fluff and 2-4 pieces of Salmon (about the same size as the offered rodent. You'll find everyone has their own feeding regime. Earthworms have quite a low nutritional value so you can feed these more often ;)

[EasternGirl]

Can I use antibacterial soap and water to clean? Will that be safe? The problem with Selena is that she would eat everyday if I let her...I don't want to overfeed her, but I don't want to underfeed her either. Like I said, I've been giving her a pinkie once or twice a week but earthworms everyday or every other day...I give her half a worm...wondering if I should give her a whole one...

[gregmonsta]

Atibacterial soap will leave residue so you will have to rinse the enclosure very well after use.
Your better with a 10% bleach solution (standard bleach - not fragranced) makes a good disinfectant. Again, everything will need a good rinse after.
Milton/sterilisation fluid for baby bottles etc is another good disinfectant that's quite cheap and is used in the reptile hobby.
The beauty of the product I use is that it's specially formulated for reptiles and simply needs a quick wipe to dry.

[EasternGirl]

Update on Selena...

She is such a funny little scaredy-snake. She decided she wanted to come out and bask today...but she doesn't want anyone to see her. So, she is curled up in the middle of a little bush trying to bask...she isn't getting much of the light, but she's trying....she is so adorable! I've attached a couple of pics...

Now for a story...this is just a little story..it is the story of how I found Selena and how I discovered her beautiful mother. I often look for snakes when I go into my basement. My basement is unfinished..it is damp and creepy, but I have to do my laundry down there. Before Selena, and when it is warm outside, if I found a snake I would simply put it back out into my yard...as many garters live out there...they have burrows all over the yard and woodpiles to bask on. But the day I found Selena, it was the first very cold day of winter. I went into the basement to do laundry, and saw this poor little scrub caught in a spider web...with a spider egg in her mouth. I picked her up and put her in a bucket. I called a snake rescue, but they were too far away. I couldn't put her in the cold yard. I spent a couple of days calling around..trying to figure out what to do. No one was very helpful. So I went to the pet store and bought an enclosure and some substrate...and the guy at the pet store sent me to a marine store for earthworms. I browsed the internet for days looking for articles on garter snake care....I saw a link to a forum....you know the rest. It was all very accidental. It was one of the best things that has happened to me.

I decided I better go out into my yard and see if I could figure out exactly where the snakes were coming into my basement. I could approximate where they were coming in...and I was afraid there may be more babies out there in the cold. As I came around a corner of my house, where I knew there would be a wooden platform, I thought to myself...I bet the mother will be there. It was odd, I just thought that. Sure enough, as I turned the corner, a gorgeous garter..about 3 feet in length...was basking on the wooden platform. She quickly went under my house...where I believe she is now, in brumation. I hope to see her in the spring.

I can't believe how amazing these creatures are....how anyone could choose any other kind of snake over a garter is beyond me...

That is my little story...:rolleyes:

[guidofatherof5]

Nice story.
The snakes around your house have a good friend.
Now, start hand feeding the wild one. It takes time and patience but it can be done.
I have a few radixes that come out just to grab a worm from me then hide.

Thanks for sharing.;)

[EasternGirl]

Funny that you said that, Steve...because when I saw the mother snake and she went into our crawl space to hide...I wondered if she might need food because it was so cold out and there wasn't a lot of food around...so, I thawed a pinkie and placed it on the ledge to the crawl space for her. I'm not sure if she ate it. I can't wait until spring now that I am so into garters...I'll be like a kid the first warm day! I'll be running all over my yard looking for garters!

Greg, I went to your website...I like it. I enjoyed reading the post on handling and trust...very helpful for me.

[gregmonsta]

:) Thank you. I'm glad to be of use with my ramblings :D

[kibakiba]

I used to do that when I was younger, before the pond was filled I'd run around the yard picking up as many garter snakes as I could. I kind of miss being able to do that, but if I did that now... They'd use their mind control on me and have me bring them home...:D

[EasternGirl]

Yeah...that's what I am afraid of...I can only imagine how many we have out there and under our house.

[EasternGirl]

So...I got this stuff at the pet store...Zoo Med Wipe Out 1 Terrarium and Small Animal Cage Cleaner. It is supposed to be safe for cleaning tanks...for the furniture and plants, I'm supposed to buy..Wipe Out 2...another $7...has anyone used this stuff? Maybe there is something safer and cheaper that can be found?

I forgot to attach the pics of Selena attempting to bask while hiding...they are blurry of course, because I still can't figure out my camera....

[ConcinusMan]

Sure there's something cheaper. Household bleach. That's all I've ever used. Of course, I dilute it 1/4 cup per 5 gallons of hot water. I wash all the plastic plants and accessories with hand dish washing detergent, then place all the items in the bleach for 10 minutes, rinse thoroughly. The same solution can be used to wipe out the tank. Again you have to rinse well, and air dry. I do this whenever the substrate needs to be completely changed, which isn't really all that often.

You don't have to worry about keeping things like super-sterile. Just don't let things go so long that it's nasty and poopy. You only have the one snake and you can scoop out poop as you see it for quite some time before you need to totally clean out everything.

Sometimes they smear the glass with feces or food and in between major cleanings. For that, you can take your snake out and put it another container, then clean the glass with white distilled vinegar straight from the bottle. Dry it and air out the enclosure, then put your snake back.

The one thing that should be done often, and faithfully is to first off make sure their water dish is non-porous and non-metallic, and keep that clean at all times. Change the water often and wash the dish. That is really important. If you must neglect the cleaning of the cage or substrate, (have been guilty of that before) then keep it dry above all and don't neglect the water. It must be clean.

[kibakiba]

I also use household bleach. It works wonders.

[EasternGirl]

That is all very helpful...thanks, Richard. She has one of those fake rock plastic dishes for water. I take it out every couple of days and clean it with antibacterial soap and water. Is that okay? The only problem with the poop..and the reason why I think I need to do a major clean...is that she hides and poops under her substrate..making it difficult to find, and it gets on the glass.

Now...a couple more things...one, I checked the temp at her basking end of her enclosure...it's about 82 degrees...is that warm enough? Two...could you post a pic of some of your enclosures again? I think I have too much stuff in her enclosure...want to make sure it isn't too cluttered for her.

[kibakiba]

You can never have too much ;) They like having a safe area that they can hide in. 82 degrees is warm enough, mine stays in the 70s because of the fact we don't have a heater other than a little plug in one. If you're worried about the poop under the substrate and on the glass, you could clean it every other week. Sometimes when I clean their dishes I use my hand soap, but I make sure to rinse it really good before giving it to them.

[guidofatherof5]

Garter snakes like clutter.
More to explore and to make hides out of.
You have to balance clutter with functionality/maintenance.

[ConcinusMan]

82 is fine. Just give her about 14-16 hours of that each day. I wouldn't use soap of any kind. Soap reacts with minerals in water and causes it to leave residue. (soap scum). Just wash it like you would your own dishes, or use plain hot water.

Like Steve said, they like clutter. Especially the shy ones. Just make sure the clutter doesn't allow the snake to climb up and get too close to the hot bulb.

[EasternGirl]

No, she can't get too close to the bulb..I always make sure to situate the bulb so that it isn't over a tall plant or climbing stick. I think I may change her substrate tomorrow and spot clean a bit....maybe remove some things from the enclosure, because there are so many plants right now...I can never find her, and it is a lot to clean. She stays warm at night too because I have a night bulb that keeps one side of the tank at about 82 at night as well...but she always has the cool side of the tank to retreat to.

I'll tell you...that snake is sneaky! Tonight I freaked out because I couldn't find her and I thought she had somehow managed to get out. I removed everything in her enclosure...and was digging through the substrate and nothing! Usually, I can see her move under the substrate. She must have been moving away from where I was looking as I was looking...and managing to do it with an incredible amount of stealth. Finally, I found her! I picked her up and was like "Do you know how worried I was?"...I don't think she really cared at all....lol. She was probably thinking.."Good, maybe you'll stop bothering me all the time now!".

[ConcinusMan]

Been there, done that so many times, i got used to it. You will too.

[EasternGirl]

After a long first day back to school, which I had to drive to in the snow because they refused to close my school (they closed everything else) hissss....

I came home to find that Selena had pooped all over the plants in her enclosure...she couldn't make it easy on me and poop in the carefresh... So, I cleaned her tank and furnishings. I didn't have any bleach so I hope I did everything right...I washed her plants, water dish, hide, and wood in warm soapy water...rinsed everything and set it out to dry. I'm not sure about cleaning wood...it is porous, no? Should I be washing it? Then I removed all of her substrate and cleaned the bottom of her tank with a little bit of white vinegar, then wiped it down with plain water and I am airing it out. I'm also not sure about her water dish...it's a repti rock dish...the guy at the pet store said it is porous and that I should get a different one? Hopefully, I didn't use anything that can hurt her...just hand soap and vinegar.

[kibakiba]

I have a rock like water dish that I use for my snakes, I clean it with hot soapy water and then rinse it off and let it soak in hot water before I dry it and let the snakes use it. With the wood I use, I scrub it off in 1/8 cup of bleach in a gallon of water and soak it really well before leaving it out to dry. I've always done this and nothing bad has happened to my snakes, but if you're unsure, someone else can tell you how to clean it without the use of bleach I'm sure.

[ConcinusMan]

You worry too much! If I cleaned the tanks every time poop appeared, I'd be doing it every day. Not necessary.

As long as you get the poop off the plants and rinse clean, that's fine. You don't have to remove the substrate and clean the entire tank already. You just set it up not long ago.

If the glass gets all smudgy, I use vinegar because it's non toxic, and does a good job of cleaning the glass without the need to take everything out of the tank like you would have to do with bleach or glass cleaner.

I use a large repti rock corner dish in my big enclosure. It's very dense plastic. Not something I would call porous. If you get a slimy coat forming in it, you can just wash it out like you would your dishes, with a tiny amount of bleach in the water, and rinse well.

[EasternGirl]

Now Richard...I told you I'm an over-protective mother! ;) Lol...getting me to stop worrying is akin to getting me to stop breathing. I needed to clean the tank under the substrate anyway..because she has been hiding under there and pooping. It was all over under there. But believe me, I won't be doing the thorough cleaning like that too often...it was a bit of work!

Now...on a different note, following in Steve's example, I thought I would post a pic of my son. He's with the cat (with evil kitty eyes)...haven't gotten him to hold the snake yet! He takes pics of her...and he pets her. Not ready for holding yet! :eek:

[ConcinusMan]

OMG! your son is in danger. Beware the possessed evil kitteh!

I only owned one cat my entire life. She looked exactly like that one. Her name was "gray ghost". I got into birds and snakes, and came to hate, or at least, strongly dislike cats after that.

[kibakiba]

Cute kid and cute kitty ;)
I have a cat, dog, 7 snakes and a macaw. Willy, the macaw, will literally scream in your ear any time you make a noise. He's really annoying and mean. ;)

[Mix]

Marnie, your son is gorgeous!
We have two cats, and they drive each other (and, therefore, the rest of us) insane.

[EasternGirl]

Thanks everyone...my son knows exactly how cute he is, and I am in trouble when he is a teenager. He is half-Mexican. I have a dog and three cats....the one in the pic is Boo..he is a big, fluffy teddy bear..that likes to spoon with me and has no idea he is a cat. Beanie...my black cat...was a rescue kitty. I live on a college campus, and stupid college kids get animals and then abandon them when they move at the end of a semester or year. We have quite a problem with that around here. Beanie apparently lived in an apartment I lived in before me...everytime I would open my door, she would run inside. Luckily, some of the neighbors had decided to feed her...but no one was taking her in. She became mine...and she is an awesome cat. I also have Ian...a tabby...he is a bit of a pistol. Then there is my yellow lab, Kaela...who is on her way out...as I have posted about. You can see pics of all my pets under the "non-garters" post in the lounge.

[EasternGirl]

Selena took a piece of worm on hemostats from me today! Thanks so much to Steve for sending the hemostats...

[kibakiba]

Great progress, Marnie! Hopefully she'll take more from you soon. :)

[guidofatherof5]

Selena took a piece of worm on hemostats from me today! Thanks so much to Steve for sending the hemostats...


Glad things are working out with them.;)

[EasternGirl]

Today I saw Selena swim for the first time...it was really cool..she went around in circles in her dish...lol. I'm wondering if maybe I should get a bigger dish for her so that she can swim, now that I know she likes to...she never swam before.

[kibakiba]

Mine do that sometimes. On warmer days I let them swim in the bathtub, kind of like a little beach day for them. Snakey loves the water and constantly swims... Mama is the type to touch the water with her "toe" and want out. ;)

[ConcinusMan]

It's good exercise for them. Whether they want to, or not, I'll periodically make them swim in the tub or else just take them for a run on the living room floor or outside on the lawn, to keep their muscles in shape.

Sometimes my snakes seem to be restless and digging around, pushing the glass, and just seem unsettled. A good swim or a run on the floor tends to calm them down. I think they just wanted to run. After their swim, or run, the settle right back down in their enclosure.

[kibakiba]

Mama hates it, or seems to and always wants out but as cruel as it sounds, I make her swim. I've found that they come to trust me more and trust me faster than when I don't, because they cant get out at all without my help. I keep my hands in the water so that they can come up to me and rest on my hands. After 10 minutes if they come to my hands I let them get out. I think it helps them learn that my hands provide more than food, since, I technically could leave them there and not help them at all. I'm nice though. ;)

[EasternGirl]

How big of a bowl should she have to swim in? Two new things I learned about Selena today: First, she likes to be pet but not held yet. She will lie there and let me pet her...if she is hiding and I find her and start petting her, she will come out and let me pet her...but she still gets freaked out when I pick her up. Second, she appears to be afraid of fish...I don't know if it was the smell or what...but I bought some fresh cod and cut it up and put it in her enclosure...she immediately hid and refused to come out until I removed the fish...weird!

[kibakiba]

I personally have a dish that's big enough for Mama to lay in. I know Steve has a 1 gallon bowl in his enclosures. Maybe you could get one that's a bit larger than Selena and see how she likes that. Or, if you have a large bowl you could fill that with some lukewarm water and set her in there and let her swim every once in a while.

Snakey is like that, he doesn't like being held much and if I try to pick him up when he doesn't want to be held, he hangs onto things, so I usually just rub his back a little when he seems to want attention. Squirt was terrified of fish when I first tried feeding it to him... He flattened his head and hissed at the hemostats when I tried feeding it to him. When I moved him to the bigger snakes enclosure, he saw Thumbelina eating some of the salmon and he hadn't had any food yet and he stole it from her and ate it. Since then he's loved salmon. It could be that it's just foreign to her and she doesn't know how to react to it being in her space. Maybe if you added a little bit of cod and a few worms to it she might realize it's food, or you could keep adding a piece in there until she realizes that it's food ;)

[EasternGirl]

Yeah...I've heard about scenting..maybe I could try scenting it with worm....or just put it in with worms, like you said.

[kibakiba]

Fish scent is a lot stronger than worms, but having worms in the dish with it may make her see that it's not going to harm her. I did that with Mama, she didn't like fish but I gave her a dish or pinkie, worm with fish pieces mixed in and she ate it all.

[ConcinusMan]

I was raking leaves in my yard today and found 8 monster night crawlers!

I chopped one up and some of the little one's didn't want to take them. They showed interest, but didn't take them until I mixed the pieces with a little bit of trout.

[EasternGirl]

I think I'll try putting some fish with worms in for her today and see what she does.

Last night, I had to wet a paper towel and wipe her down with it to look for mites. I talked to Steve on the phone for a bit about the mite possibility...I'm going to look again today..but I think maybe she doesn't have them, which is good. I'll keep everyone posted. Anyway...she did not like the wet paper towel at all! She decided she was mad at me for the rest of the night...and that she was going to plan her escape...here is a pic of her on the top of her highest vine, trying to get out of the top of her tank...lol.

[EasternGirl]

I put fish on a plate next to some worms, and Stinky Selena (that's what I call her when she's being a stinker!) ate all of the worms off the plate and left the fish! Silly girl! Either she wants better fish...or she just isn't a fish eater.

[gregmonsta]

I put fish on a plate next to some worms, and Stinky Selena (that's what I call her when she's being a stinker!) ate all of the worms off the plate and left the fish! Silly girl! Either she wants better fish...or she just isn't a fish eater.

Keep trying ;) .... try putting the worm chunks on top of the fish pieces.

[guidofatherof5]

I put fish on a plate next to some worms, and Stinky Selena (that's what I call her when she's being a stinker!) ate all of the worms off the plate and left the fish! Silly girl! Either she wants better fish...or she just isn't a fish eater.

Do an overload of fish. Be sure all the fish parts are coated with worm slime. Give it a try.;)

[EasternGirl]

I bought a flourescent lamp fixture to lay on the top of Selena's cage...now she has decided she is afraid of the lamp! She is the most skiddish snake...she would be afraid of her own shadow if she could see it...no wait...she saw her reflection and was afraid of that...lol.

[kibakiba]

Haha. My little ones get a little scared when I first turn on their basking lamp, but it's probably because it was darker and then all the sudden there was a flash of light. Mama will sometimes hide under her log if I turn on their lamps before I turn on my room lights.

[ConcinusMan]

If I were to do that to Amy, (turn a light on over him abruptly) he would literally jump into the air.

[kibakiba]

Snap does that. She is crazy though, I don't blame her. She has a crazy mom and dad. :rolleyes:

[mustang]

I think I'll try putting some fish with worms in for her today and see what she does.

She decided she was mad at me for the rest of the night...and that she was going to plan her escape...here is a pic of her on the top of her highest vine, trying to get out of the top of her tank...lol.
sounds like checker:rolleyes:

[EasternGirl]

Selena is getting ready to shed again...she is all dusty looking and she is hiding all the time.

[guidofatherof5]

She's just waiting to make a grand entrance with her new outfit.:D

[kibakiba]

She's probably going through a growth spurt because you take care of her so well. :D

[EasternGirl]

Yeah...her eyes are all cloudy now and she only comes out for little skiddish visits and then burrows back down to hide. The funny thing about her, though, is that she eats before she sheds. I'm just waiting for her to shed so that she can start behaving like herself again. She is so pretty and active after she sheds...all shiny and slithering all over the place...

[EasternGirl]

Big news everyone! Selena let me hold her for the first time today without freaking out! She started off squirming around and trying to get away as usual...but then I took her and sat down on the bed with her and she calmed down and just sat in my hand. We sat there for a couple of minutes...but then my son came bolting through the door and scared her and then she wanted to go home. Big progress, though. I was concerned about one thing....when I was holding her at first, there was a strange clicking sound coming from her stomach. Just a little click...click...click when she was breathing...it stopped though. I've never heard it before. No mites on my hand, though...that's good news.

[guidofatherof5]

The clicking noise is more than likely made when they open the glottis to take a breath. Some click and some don't.;)

[EasternGirl]

Hmmm..okay...but it was coming from way down in her stomach...near the area where her tail starts...

[ConcinusMan]

Oh, I know what you're talking about. It happens sometimes when you're handling them. I'm pretty sure it's just the contents of their digestive system getting squished around. Nothing to be overly concerned about since it doesn't seem to hurt them but all the same, try to be gentle and avoid that.

[kibakiba]

I've had that happen a few times. It usually happens when I'm holding a more nervous snake, like Snakey and Snap. Since they move around a lot I hold them a lot less just in case it does cause them a bit of discomfort.

[EasternGirl]

It must have been because she was nervous because I barely had a grip on her. Anyway...some other interesting things I have noticed...

Selena seems to definitely distinguish my face from other faces now...even my ex-husband commented on it. She knows my face and will hide if other people come to her enclosure to look at her. Interestingly, I have noticed that if I have my hair up...she seems to recognize me...but if I have it down, she doesn't at first. Also, if she is looking at me...and acting like she isn't sure that she can trust my face, if I smile and show her my teeth, she then calms down and comes over to see me. Weird! But I think it's like Steve was talking about with his glasses....she has come to recognize me..but a change in my hair or face throws her off. Garters are so interesting!

[kibakiba]

I've had that happen too. I got my hair cut a few inches and I had it in a pony tail, my snakes all freaked out and didn't even want me to touch them. The same thing happened after I dyed my hair lighter. My hair has always been blonde, but it's been getting darker, so I dyed it just a bit brighter. Never once have any of my snakes freaked out that much. Poor little ones. They also don't recognize my mom as much when she comes in, moves or looks at them they get scared, but when I do, they come to me in search of food. :D

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah, you really don't have to be gripping them to feel and/or hear a "squish" as they move through your hands. I always cringe when it happens but it's been going on for years and it doesn't seem to hurt them.

[EasternGirl]

Near Escape!!!

Okay, first..let me explain that Selena is not the type of snake that you can just take out of her enclosure and set her down somewhere...not yet, anyway. I hear some of you talking about snakes in your bed, snakes on beds, snakes on towels and blankets...etc. If I were to put Selena down on the bed...she would slither away as fast as she can and make a break for it! So, today...like every other day...she was burrowed somewhere in her bedding, hiding after I turned on her flourescent lamp...she is afraid of the lamp..I ended up taking it down. Anyway, I decided to try to find her. I always start by picking up her large plant, looking to make sure she isn't in it...and then removing it. This time I placed it on the floor. Then I look through all of her bedding for her. I removed everything in her enclosure and looked through her bedding three times...she just wasn't in there...I was like..."oh no"...I looked down at the plant on the floor....and there she was, just sitting next to the plant. Did I mention my son and his friend were in the room, jumping around playing video games?? Could have been a bad situation... I told her she was a very good girl for stayin by her plant and not making a run (or slither) for it!

[ConcinusMan]

Setting the plant down before checking it... rookie move!:p

[Mommy2many]

Near Escape!!!

I always start by picking up her large plant, looking to make sure she isn't in it...and then removing it. This time I placed it on the floor.


Not a rookie move....she did check the plant. Maybe she was underneath the plant itself?

[EasternGirl]

I don't know! It was really strange...I always check the plant really well...lift up all the leaves...before I set it out of the enclosure...maybe she was actually hanging on under it....maybe she has secret powers....lol.

[Mommy2many]

I know they have secret powers...

[EasternGirl]

:)

[Mommy2many]

They are beautiful animals:o

[ConcinusMan]

Not a rookie move....she did check the plant. Maybe she was underneath the plant itself?

Settle down now, I was only taunting because the same thing has happened to me multiple times!:o


I know they have secret powers...

Sure enough, they do. They don't call them "sneaky snakes" for nothin' !:D

[EasternGirl]

Hey everyone!

Sorry I've been out of touch....I just started nursing school and it's been pretty insane. I had exams all last week. I hope everyone is well....and if you have any news to tell me, post it here because I'll never catch up with all the posts that were made while I was MIA...

Selena is doing pretty well...I am concerned because the left side of her mouth is not closing all the way...and some of the scales around her face look a little raised. She is eating and pooping and drinking...and she was very active yesterday, so I guess it's nothing dire. I took a pic and I'll attach it so that you guys can see what I mean about her mouth. I hope you can see it...the pic got blurry when I zoomed in so that you could see her mouth. Let me know what you think.

[guidofatherof5]

Check for retained shed in the lip area. Otherwise, there might be a slight infection on the lip.
As a rule these minor infections take care of themselves.
It is something to watch as they can turn into a big problem, even life threatening.
Keep us posted.

[ConcinusMan]

Hey, Marnie it does look like a possible infection. I've dealt with it before. If it seems to persist use your own judgement or see a vet for diagnosis. Chlorehexidine antiseptic clears it up fastest. I just use Hibiclens brand for skin wound cleaning and prep. It's 4% chlorhexidine but you only need 0.5%. I put two drops in about 5 oz of water. The hard part is you're going to need to restrain the snake so you can clean the wound area with a swab twice a day and keep them warm and on paper towels. I've seen it get pretty bad if not treated early but this treatment works fast anyway(4-7 days).

[EasternGirl]

I was looking at Selena's mouth today...it looks like she has a piece of fuzz or something where her mouth is slightly open on that one side....I tried to pull it out with tweezers...she wasn't very happy...she musked me...poor thing was scared to death. I'm going to try the hibiclens tonight. She seems to be fine, other than her mouth looking wierd, though. She's eating fine...pooping....all that. I'm exhausted from school....I can't even type right now....

[guidofatherof5]

Julian, take it easy on Mom. Let her get some rest.;)

[EasternGirl]

Tell that to my Anatomy and Physiology teacher....please!

[EasternGirl]

Okay...I hope I did that right...I put a couple of drops of Hibiclens in about 6oz of water...dipped a cotton swab in it, and held Selena up and rubbed it on the side of her mouth the best that I could...she actually was rubbing her mouth against it. I rubbed it on there for a minute or so. I couldn't really get up inside her mouth. She is the silliest snake...she gets all upset when I hold her and restrain her to treat her mouth...but then I put her back in her enclosure and she pops out and starts looking around for me!

[kibakiba]

I'm sure you did fine, Marnie. She may act upset when you have to restrain her, but she'll be grateful when the problem with her mouth goes away. :)

[ConcinusMan]

That's good. Try to avoid excess so that she doesn't swallow too much of it but also make sure the affected area gets good and wet with it, if that makes any sense. There's no need to do more than that unless you see dirt or other foreign matter in there. If that's the case you might have to rub that out so don't be alarmed if there's a tiny amount of blood from doing that. Also you might find that the "lip" of the snake will move aside quite easily so you get it in there good. Always go front to back since that's the direction the teeth are curved. If there's nothing in there, just wet the wound with it real quick, twice a day. The antiseptic properties of it continue to work for a long time after applying it which is why works so well. This will heal that wound, in fact it's the only way it's going to heal. You should see some improvement within 3-5 days but continue for a few more days after that. I know having to do this sucks but it works!

[EasternGirl]

I can't really get in there that well because she twists and turns and tries to get away from me the whole time. I just don't want to hurt her by restraining her too forcefully. I managed to hold her head still and rub the cotton swab along the bottom of the lip today...I got under it a bit...I also looked to see if there was any more fuzz sticking out from under there...I do think that she got something stuck, but I just can't get to it. I would have to force her mouth open...and I don't want to try that. I'll keep putting the medicine on and see if I notice a change in her mouth in a couple of days. Thanks everyone, for the help with this! Oh, she laid in my hand for a little bit after I finished with the medicine...sweet little thing.

[guidofatherof5]

You may have to bite the bullet and force a look. If a foreign object is causing the problem then the medicine may not be enough.
I know how you feel about restraining them when they don't want it but they never want to be restrained and examined.
Sometimes it's necessary for their good health.
Best of luck.
Keep us posted.

[EasternGirl]

I'm just so worried I'll hurt her, Steve...how do I force her mouth open anyway?

[kibakiba]

It is hard, Marnie, but sometimes you just have to do it to make sure there isnt anything seriously wrong with her. The way I get their mouth open if I need to look is softly pinching the side of their head, don't pinch hard. Just enough to restrain them from waving their head around too much. I also wrap their bodies in a towel to keep them from thrashing and straining their spine. After that, I take my finger and very softly pull their mouth open. It can take a few tries to do it. They also might latch onto your finger a couple times... But that might be their reaction to having someone sticking a finger near their mouth :p
I've seen people do it with pliers or something similar to keep the mouth open without the use of fingers, but I personally wouldn't stick metal in my snakes mouths.

[guidofatherof5]

I use a cleaned playing card. Slip it in carefully to separate the jaws. Then open it up. I usually stick my clean fingers in to keep it open then and do my inspection.
They are a lot tougher than you realize and will reacted the same way whether its the first or the 10th time. They don't like it but somethings have to be done.
I've been in that situation with my Dr., once:D

[kibakiba]

I like that idea, Steve! I might have to try that.
I've been in a lot of situations like that with my Dr. too. :D

[ConcinusMan]

I'm with Steve on this one. You may just have to get forceful. If there's stuff stuck on the wound area, even if it's just a dirty scab, it's better if it comes out of there, even if it causes a little bleeding. I don't think the card thing is necessary though and it's too easy to cause further injury or break teeth. It's pretty easy to get far enough in their mouth using a swab. Just push your way in there by rolling it in a way that causes the "lip" to go upward. The snake will often yield by opening it's mouth slightly.

You probably don't need to force her mouth open, you just need to get that swab in there behind the "lip" enough to clear out whatever is in there. You might end up rubbing a scab off causing a little bleeding but in the end it will heal faster by getting the medicine in the wound better. If it's foreign material in there, it must come out.

I know, this sucks and it isn't easy but mouth wounds/infections/embedded foreign object is nearly always fatal if not treated.

[kibakiba]

Would it still be a risk to cause and injury or break teeth if you're extremely gentle and careful when doing it? I was thinking that you just slip it right under the lips to help you get the mouth open slightly, if I did it I wouldn't slip it all the way in the mouth, but just barely.

[guidofatherof5]

Slipping it all the way across the mouth lets you open the mouth uniformly. I've never broken any teeth off or had any injuries occur. Using the corner edge makes it very easy to start.
The lips will move independently of the jaw so just raising the lip area isn't going to be enough.
I think more harm could come by not being aggressive. Being firm lets you make the inspection in the least amount of time. If you are too cautions you will add more stress(time) getting it done.
This is just the procedure I use.
Someone else may have a different/better way of getting it done.;)

[ConcinusMan]

The lips will move independently of the jaw so just raising the lip area isn't going to be enough.

I guess that's what I was getting at, the lips do move pretty easily and are flexible. I can't see the snake myself but it looks a lot like the same kind of injury some of my babies have sustained from fighting and I used this treatment and it worked. I only needed to get the medicine under and/or behind the lip in the affected area. Swelling and the lips not sealing properly allowed foreign material to get under the lip, further aggravating the situation. This treatement, and keeping them on paper towels cleared it right up and after a while, the lips went back together enough to keep stuff out. It's really just the open part of the lip was the problem. I didn't actually have to open their mouths or treat the entire mouth. It was a pain but I'm happy to say that even the worst cases did fully recover.

Since there's no food fights or other obvious ways to get injured in this case, maybe you'll get lucky and find that there is no infection. Maybe it's just some substrate wedged behind the lip.

[EasternGirl]

Okay...well, I tried to reply to everyone's posts the other night from my phone...but I'm seeing now that the post never went through. I was saying thanks for all of the ideas. I have tried to get her mouth open, to no avail. However, she has opened her mouth in her enclosure...while I was watching...and I couldn't see anything in there. She does have a lot of retained shed around her face still...and it looks as though she is getting ready to shed again soon. I keep treating her mouth everyday with the hibiclens solution. I'm just hoping to see some improvement soon. She hasn't gotten worse, and she is eating fine.

Now for some funny stuff....She never tries to bite me...even when I am poking around her mouth trying to assess the lip issue and putting medicine on it. However, after I put her back in her home, and she feels safe...she will poke her head up and look at me...and I will say "Okay, tell me how mad you are.."...and she will look at me and open her mouth a couple of times as if she is biting at me. It's too cute.

Tonight...she was particularly mad at me when I was putting her medicine on her mouth...I noticed she was flattening her head...I had heard people on here talk about that, but never seen it. She made some kind of strange noise...I think she hissed at me. Then...she started constricting! Again, I heard someone talk of a garter doing that on here. It was the funniest thing...she wrapped herself around me and started squeezing as hard as she could...I had to stop and look at her and say "Really, Selena? Seriously?!?"...I think she doesn't want to be bothered with right now because she is going to shed again soon. Now she is back in her home starring at me with that angry snake look on her face....lol.

[guidofatherof5]

You know her well.;)

[Mommy2many]

My Midnight makes no qualms about how she feels about me, she bites every time. And that is for cleaning her house:D

I can only imagine what she would do if I had to administer medicine.

[EasternGirl]

Lol....Le Ann...I'm very lucky that Selena doesn't seem to even know how to bite. She is a very good girl when I put her medicine on now...she doesn't even struggle that much anymore. I think her mouth is starting to close a bit more.

Here are some new pics of me holding my girl...(and one of her poking her head out from behind a leaf).

[guidofatherof5]

The mouth is looking better.
Just a note. Some mouth injuries will take a long time to heal and once healed will have scar tissue which can distort the mouth somewhat.
It's usually not a big deal and the snakes operate just fine. I have a couple snakes with small bumps under their lips.
Other than that they are as normal as can be.
That is as normal as a radix can be:D

[EasternGirl]

Steve...I looked at her mouth today and it still looks a bit open on the one side...but she's eating fine. I have been misting her enclosure with water daily, and it looks like she finally got all of the retained shed off of her head....but not her eye...it looks as though the eyecap never came off and just folded back about a quarter of the way instead. Her eyes look milky now...and I have been suspecting that she may shed again soon. I know that you tried to call me earlier....we'll catch up at some point!

[Reptar!]

That's awesome. One of my snakes I had last summer loved when I would put my hand in the tank. That snake had the most personality I have ever seen in a Garter. The way you describe yours reminds me of him. Keep the diary going. Its pretty interesting.

[guidofatherof5]

Was nice talking with you.
I'd let that eye cap go to see if it comes off with the next shed or try the shed box and warm cotton towel.

[EasternGirl]

Thanks, Steve...and welcome, Reptar!

Selena is definitely going to shed. Her eyes are all fogged over and she is acting like a big fraidy-snake. She does not want me to hold her right now at all..and she wouldn't come out from hiding today until I put her night-bulb on....guess she felt safer with the lack of light. She also refused to eat a pinky I put in for her today. I really hope she can successfully get this shed off in one piece this time...I hope she can get those eyecaps off.

I got all excited because the weather got a little warm around here....thought I might be able to go herpin' in my backyard soon! This will be an interesting Spring...now that I have such an interest in garters...we have so many in our yard when it's warm. I never really cared much in the past...unless there was a hurt snake, of course. But now...I can't wait to get out there and look for snakies! Of course, my plans have been postponed...it's snowing again!

[kibakiba]

I always love looking around for snakes, we only see a couple a year though. Where I live it doesn't rain much in the summer and the snake's best source of water got torn up. Luckily we do see some cute ones every once in a while.

[Odie]

Hi, from Oregon, Reptar :)

[EasternGirl]

Selena is such a sweetie...this morning we had a little bonding session...I was lying on the bed and she was slithering around all over me...she found a warm spot next to my arm and stayed there for a while. My son took a couple of pics of her resting in my hand...

She is still such a little thing...

I'm a little worried about her though...she still hasn't shed and she has refused food for the last couple of days...I would have thought she would have shed by now...she still has the one eye cap on...the other came off. She is acting like she is going to shed...with the hiding and refusing food...but she has been acting like she's going to shed for about two weeks...:confused:

[kibakiba]

Is she crinkly? If she is, she could have retained her shed, which would need help coming off.
She also might not be ready to yet.

She's almost as big as Mama, and Mama is a fully grown northwestern ;)

[EasternGirl]

I'm so proud...Selena shed today and she got it all off in one piece...even the head and eyecaps...she even got that retained eyecap off from the last time. Yay! It's kind of funny because as soon as I posted something on here this morning about being worried about her....she shed.

Chantel...so do you think she is about as big as she is going to get? I know Eastern Garters are supposed to be one of the biggest garters...I really thought that the snake living under my house was a garter....in fact, I thought she was Selena's mother...but that snake is big! She has a head the size of a half-dollar and she is about 3 feet long and big around. She has the colorings of a garter. I thought Selena would get big like that...but maybe she's going to be a little girl.

[ConcinusMan]

I always love looking around for snakes, we only see a couple a year though. Where I live it doesn't rain much in the summer and the snake's best source of water got torn up. Luckily we do see some cute ones every once in a while.

Northwesterns don't really care about that much. As long as their winter den wasn't disturbed and there's still enough grassy places and cover, they'll stay around without any water nearby. In open grassy places they get hard to find in the hot summer days naturally but not because there's no water. You should be able to find some around in the spring before it gets hot. Don't worry too much about the pond, you'll still find some around.

[kibakiba]

Marnie, I think Selena will get a lot bigger! I was just saying that she looks to be about the size of Mama right now. I bet she'll grow a foot or two, maybe even a little bit more! I love my little snakes, but once I move to Michigan and save up quite a bit of money, I hope to get some different species of garter :D

Well the year they tore it down I went from having literally hundreds of babies and yearlings fleeing from my feet in my yard during May, to one or two in my back yard, a field, a year. My mom did catch a pure black garter snake with the corner of her eye, but I couldn't grab it. I wanted to know what it was, never seen a pure black snake here. Runt, Mama, Squirt and Thumbelina were the only snakes we saw, other than the black one, during this year and we went out a lot looking for them in the spring and when it was warm out.

[EasternGirl]

Well, we'll see this year...I've never actually gone in my backyard to hunt for snakes before...so I have no idea how many will be around. I know we get quite a few in our basement and that there are burrow holes all over the yard. Since I do not have the money to take care of a bunch of snakes...maybe I can ship you one, Chantel...if you want an Eastern.

Selena's mouth looks good now that she shed...she must have had some retained shed that was causing it to stay open. Of course, she had an attitude last night...she was like "I'm all beautiful and shiny and I'm not a fraidy-snake anymore, so don't mess with me!"...well, she didn't actually say that, but that's what she was thinking. If I start hearing her talk to me...I'll get a little worried. Lol...

[kibakiba]

I would love an eastern, but I have no room nor the money to care for more than what I have, especially with babies on the way that I'll be keeping until they colour up so I can see who I'll be keeping. Of course, I would take one if I had the time, space and money!

Snap was like that today. I'll admit, I woke her up. She was flattening her head and striking at me while I was holding her, she just wouldn't bite even though it was kind of obvious she was peeved enough to. I've never seen a snake so mad,besides Squirt when it's time for medicine. Haha.

[ConcinusMan]

How's that working out? Does it seem to be helping? Signs that it's working would be swelling going down and the affected gum area turning a normal pink color instead of all red and irritated looking.

[EasternGirl]

Selena's mouth looks great...as soon as she got that last shed off, her mouth is back to normal. I think it had more to do with the retained shed than anything else. It got a little warm here today and I went out back to look for possible snake activity....no luck! Guess it's still too cold.

[guidofatherof5]

That's great news.

[EasternGirl]

I have decided that Selena is bipolar. One minute she will bond with me and happily sit in my hand and hang out...and then...I'll go to take her out of her enclosure another time and she will act as if she has never seen me before and freak out. Definitely a bipolar snake.

[kibakiba]

Or a snake with ADHD... I was diagnosed with bipolar once and then my psychiatrist told me my doctor misdiagnosed me. I just have adhd, so sometimes I'm off my rocker and other times I'm calm. I really don't show any signs of my ADHD anymore now that I'm waking up every other hour for Mama... I'm way too tired to run around the house like a kid. I bet my mom is happy about that... ;) Haha.

[mustang]

Or a snake with ADHD... I was diagnosed with bipolar once and then my psychiatrist told me my doctor misdiagnosed me. I just have adhd, so sometimes I'm off my rocker and other times I'm calm. I really don't show any signs of my ADHD anymore now that I'm waking up every other hour for Mama... I'm way too tired to run around the house like a kid. I bet my mom is happy about that... ;) Haha.
yay im not nearly the only adhd person here!:D

[EasternGirl]

Yeah...no worries...I'm ADHD too and so is my son...and, apparently my snake...lol.

[kibakiba]

Haha, Snap and Ember probably have it, too. Yay, ADHD buddies! ;)

[EasternGirl]

Hey Everyone!!! Hope you all didn't think I had fallen off the planet....school has just been really insane. Selena and I are both fine. She just shed again...although she had trouble with her head and neck again...this time I wasn't messin' around though...I just popped out the tweezers and pulled everything she retained right off. She has been very reclusive as of late...I thought she would snap out of it after she shed, but she is still burrowing and hiding a lot....not sure why. She has decided that she only wants to eat Steel-head trout now...seems to be turning her nose up at worms lately and wants nothing to do with mice. Well, I just wanted to drop a quick line and let everyone know we are okay...hope all is well with all of you!!!

[guidofatherof5]

Glad to hear everything is OK. Thanks for checking in.

[EasternGirl]

Well Hello Everyone!!!

I've missed you guys! Sorry I've been out of touch again....that class I was taking was insane...but it's over and I got an "A"....so the isolation and studying 24/7 paid off....

Things here are good....Selena is good...she shed again since my last post, and coiled and struck at me for the first time during a thunderstorm...poor thing doesn't understand the concept of biting though, so she just struck out and bumped her face into my hand...it was kind of funny. We got a new puppy...a long-haired chihuahua named Elvis Presley (yes, of course I named him)...I will post a pic even though I'm not supposed to do that on this page....forgive me. Snake news: found a new garter...he/she was living under my house under my front steps and coming down into my front flower garden to bask and hunt...I began feeding him/her and then became worried that she/he would end up hurt when the guy who cuts our lawn comes...so I brought him/her in and put him/her (sorry...know that's annoying) in Selena's first plastic home. Let's say "it" until we determine the sex....it is quite bigger than Selena, who interestingly has not grown much at all...the new snake is about a foot and a half long and much bigger around than Selena. I'll post a couple of pics and hope that someone can tell me the sex...I'm not sure if the pics are clear enough...I'm trying to figure out what to do...if it's a female...can I put her in with Selena even thought there is a considerable size difference? If it's a male...I do not want to put it in with Selena..and I don't know if I can afford another set-up right now. Also, it has only been a couple of days since I took the snake in, but I don't think it is adjusting to captivity well. It basically lies by the water dish all the time and is not very active...I don't think it is sick, it is eating, pooping...and it was active outside. It appears that the snake is trying to keep cool by the water dish. I know that it gets pretty cool under my house at night this time of year. Any thoughts?

I hope everyone is doing well! Let me know how you are all doing!

[EasternGirl]

Oh, BTW...Steve...my phone hasn't been working...I sent you an email today!

[ConcinusMan]

OMG! I just got a long haired chihuahua too, just a few days ago. Yours is white! That's awesome. Mines mostly black. There's a story behind how he came to be with me too which I will tell later. I first met this dog the day my Thumbilina died. I hadn't said anything about getting him yet. Wasn't sure if I was going to keep him yet, but it's looking like I will. I'll post some pics and tell the story in the "other pets" thread later.

I'm pretty sure the new snake is a girl. Eating and pooping is good. I would give her time to adjust to the new surroundings. She may become more sociable and active once she adjusts.

[guidofatherof5]

Nice to see you back.
Congrats on the grade.
That's a fine, big girl you have there.
It would be best if you keep them apart for awhile.
You need to make sure there is nothing wrong with her. You don't want Selena getting sick.
You said she's soaking a lot.
That can be an indication of possible parasites(mites) Check the water bowl for little black dots in the bottom.
There's plenty of time for those girls to get together later.;)

[EasternGirl]

Hi guys! Good to hear from you! Richard, congrats on the dog! Definitely post a pic and tell that story. I'm so sorry about Thumbelina and I'm sorry I wasn't around during that time. Hey Steve! So you guys think it's a girl??? Does that mean that I can eventually put her in with Selena even if she is considerably bigger? I know she has to be quarantined for a while. How long exactly? Steve, she isn't soaking...she lays outside next to the water dish..like she is trying to cool off next to the dish since it's made of stone or something. I checked her over for mites today...I think she's good. But she is acting strange...maybe she is just upset about being put in a cage and she misses the outdoors. But I'm afraid something will happen to her outside. Julian already named her Cee Cee....

[guidofatherof5]

Keep in mind the fact she's a big female that was out in the breeding season. If she was receptive the
chances are good she's gravid. That means a lot of babies just down the road.
Don't mean to rain on your parade but it is what it is.
Just food for thought.;)

[EasternGirl]

I was just thinking that tonight. Worrying about that actually. I will definitely have to make arrangements for the babies if she does turn out to be gravid...hope some people on here are looking for some eastern garters! How will I know? But is there a risk of her hurting Selena if I put them in the same enclosure?

[guidofatherof5]

Food fights should be a concern.
I doubt there would be any intentional injuries but there is a big difference in size and anything can happen.
Just my opinion.

[EasternGirl]

Good to know...this may be a dumb question, but you know I am new to all of this...Cee Cee wouldn't just try to eat Selena or anything...would she? Or aggressively attack her for no reason? I know that sounds dumb...but I really don't know much about how garters act together...I've only just had Selena. I would just really like Selena to have a companion and I would like to be able to room them in the same enclosure for economic reasons as well...but the safety of the snakes comes first...and you know how I worry!

[ConcinusMan]

Cee Cee wouldn't just try to eat Selena or anything...would she? Or aggressively attack her for no reason?

No. The main immediate concern is unseen or unnoticed illness. If the new girl is carrying pathogens or infection, it could spread and make Selena sick too. Assuming a clean bill of health, the two can be housed together just fine but I would recommend feeding them separately.

[EasternGirl]

Thanks, Richard...now I am just hoping that Cee Cee isn't preggers! How long should I keep them separated?

[ConcinusMan]

I would normally give it at least 60 days. Any illness will usually make itself apparent before that. And Marnie, you might as well plan on a litter. Odds are very high that all healthy wild females of breeding size that you are going to find this time of year are at least in the early stages. She's pretty thick. I think it's very likely she's carrying developing offspring. During that time, lots of nutritious food is important. They will eat 2-3 times what they normally would and you should let them have it.

[EasternGirl]

That was my next question...how to care for a gravid female? She ate 2 large worms today and a small pinky. How often should I feed her? Daily? How much should I feed her? Was what I gave her enough for a daily feeding? What should I do in terms of temp of her enclosure? I'm not sure what normal feeding is for a snake her size...I'm used to tiny Selena, who eats one worm every couple of days and a plate of cut up trout once a week. Does anyone on here want some eastern garter babies??? I'm going to have to find homes for these little scrubs when they come...

[RdubSnider]

If she'll eat mice for you and if you have them then you could feed her an adult mouse every 3 to 5 days.

[ConcinusMan]

Are you sure you're not taking on too much Marnie? I won't lie to you when I say that once the babies are born, it's like trying to provide 24/7 care to a room full of 20 nursing puppies. It isn't easy at all. Not trying to scare you, I just want you to know it will take a lot of your time on a daily basis. A lot more than you might think.

As far as temps go, just treat her like you would any garter enjoying their summer. You don't really need to treat her any different. Just make sure she gets all the nutritious food she will eat. Eventually she will likely stop feeding in late stages. Avoid low ambient daytime temps combined with bottom heat. Moms will "cook" their babies with bottom heat under those conditions.

Just a suggestion but if you want the experience of caring for mom and the arrival of the babies, there's nothing wrong with letting babies loose on their own in moms home range. You could keep a few for the experience of raising them. there's no rule that says you must keep them all and find homes for them all.

[kibakiba]

I would want one of them... If I can find homes for my new babies soon, I'll have room for one. ;)

I treated Mama just like I always had, only fed her just a tad bit more.

[EasternGirl]

Thanks you guys. Truthfully, Richard...I know I am taking on way too much. I have no idea what I am doing and I do not have a lot of time right now to devote to this. But I don't know what to do because I don't want to put her back outside to risk getting chopped up by the lawn mower or plucked off by the flock of crows that has moved into my yard. I was thinking that I could find homes for the babies that I could and then take the rest to the woods near my house and set them free if that is something that you think would be okay? There is a nice wood and creek area near my house that isn't heavily occupied where I think they would be okay. I'm afraid that my yard may not be the best place for them to survive. I would like to keep Cee Cee as a future roomy for Selena, but I do not want to raise the babies. Would I have to keep them for a certain amount of time before I could let them go free?

[guidofatherof5]

They are self sufficient from birth. Mom would just deliver and go.
You could release mom in the safe area and let her take care of things.
I know you want to keep her but the size difference could be a problem.
Finding or purchasing a more suitable cage mate might work out better in the long run for you, her and her babies.
Just an idea.

[ConcinusMan]

I don't really think the size difference will cause any issues but like Steve was saying, the babies are fully self sufficient and quite capable of taking care of themselves the day they are born. I don't see anything wrong with taking them to a safe place nearby especially if there is water and plenty of good habitat. You can do that any time after they are born. Even the same day. I would recommend a sunny day around mid morning if you're going to release them. This will ensure they are warm enough to get moving, and will have all day to find a place to spend their first night outside.

[EasternGirl]

Sounds good...thanks guys! I'm thinking I might be growing attached to Cee Cee already...she's a pretty cool girl...very docile and trusting. So I may have a hard time letting her go...if I think that she and Selena could safely room together, I may give it a go. I think I'm going to have to get a bigger enclosure for her anyway so that she is more comfortable in the next couple of months...the plastic enclosure I have her in now is too small. I'll see if I can find a tank on Craig's List. So, if she can't room with Selena, she'll have a place of her own. But I'm going to have to release the babies. But if one of you wants a baby, I'll make arrangements to get one to you.

[EasternGirl]

Hey Everyone...

Well, I got Cee Cee a tank....the guy at the pet store sold me a used one for $15...and I cleaned it and made it all nice for her. So, she has a nice home now. She seems much happier. She is such a wonderful girl...she just has the sweetest temperment....she is always out looking around...she tilts her head and looks at me when I talk to her...I can reach in her tank and pet her head, stroke her back. She is very calm. She is a piggy pig snake! She wants to eat all the time...yup, she is probably preggers. She likes worms and mice...haven't been able to get her to eat fish yet. I am attaching a couple of photos of Cee Cee Snakers in her new home.

Selena is refusing to eat all of the sudden. I'm not sure what is going on with her. I'm going to clean her enclosure today...perhaps she is unhappy because I let it go a little too long. I'm starting to get a little worried though. She has been acting a bit strange for about a month now. She has always been extremely skiddish...but she did finally get used to me, and now she is acting like I'm a stranger again. She has been extra skiddish, and she struck at me that one time. Hmmm.

[guidofatherof5]

Jealousy perhaps:D

[ConcinusMan]

Hey Everyone...

Well, I got Cee Cee a tank....the guy at the pet store sold me a used one for $15...and I cleaned it and made it all nice for her. So, she has a nice home now. She seems much happier. She is such a wonderful girl...she just has the sweetest temperment....she is always out looking around...she tilts her head and looks at me when I talk to her...I can reach in her tank and pet her head, stroke her back. She is very calm. She is a piggy pig snake!

Large females are always my favorite. They tend to be calm and display signs of intelligence.

[kibakiba]

The same thing happened with snake. She was the sweetest, calmest, little snake I had seen, for one week. Then she went back to hating me.

As for the food, don't worry about it. Snakes go off feed sometimes and start eating again within a few weeks. As long as she's got some good weight on her, she'll be fine.

[EasternGirl]

Well, Cee Cee struck at me...but, like Selena...she just bumped her nose into my hand and didn't bite me...it's as if they don't know how to bite...or perhaps they are just scared but know they don't actually want to bite me...who knows? Cee Cee and Selena have now been enjoying some Alaskan Salmon...Selena finally ate a little tiny bit. Cee Cee eats every five minutes it seems. I've been reading up on what to expect when you are expecting baby snakes....

[guidofatherof5]

Glad to hear Cee Cee is eating so well.
So, she's playing the old "false strike" card on you.
Just one of the many tricks they have up their sleeves(metaphorically speaking):D

[ConcinusMan]

Most strikes from garters are purely a defensive display with no real intention of sinking their teeth into you. They're just trying to scare you.

[EasternGirl]

Ahhh...okay, well that makes sense. Alright...next things next....need to know signs of impending birth. I read that she will stop eating and shed. She has been eating like a crazy pig for the last couple of days...but she has been soaking in her water dish a lot since last night....could that be a sign of something? I know you guys said to watch for mites...but I honestly don't see any signs of any on her. Perhaps she is just warm or she just enjoys soaking? Selena never soaks...she just takes an occasional swim around her bowl. Cee Cee was crazed last night with eating! She had fish all over her head and the side of her face, dangling out of her mouth...and she kept trying to eat her dish! I should have taken a pic.

[kibakiba]

My little Thumbelina (don't make fun of his name ;)) likes to swim a lot. Every day, about 4 times a day I'll see him swimming around in the little pool I gave him. None of the others are interested in it, besides pooping in it. Perhaps she's going to shed some time soon. I noticed Mama will sit in the water dish a couple days before she goes opaque.

Haha! Mama does that so often its almost not funny. :D She'll try biting her water dish, the sticks, other snakes, my fingers and the hemostats when she gets into a feeding frenzy.

[EasternGirl]

Yep...she shed...I should have thought of that actually. Anyway...here are some new pics of Cee Cee...

[guidofatherof5]

Cee Cee is beautiful.;)

[ConcinusMan]

And gravid from the looks of things

[Didymus20X6]

Is that a box of Slim Jims back there?

If so,

R.I.P., Randy Savage! (1952-2011)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1e/Randy_Savage_1986.jpg/200px-Randy_Savage_1986.jpg

OH YEEEEEEAAAAAAAAH!!

[EasternGirl]

Yeah...her Slim Jim can is her favorite hide...she loves that can. Thanks, Steve...I do think she is quite a lovely girl. She is getting quite big, Richard....and she hasn't been eating the last couple of days....I wonder if she is getting ready to pop those babies out...I'm keeping an eye on her....what are some signs that she is getting ready??? Funny...you mention Randy Savage, Didy, my son is a big wrestling fan...and was very upset about his death. RIP...Randy.

[kibakiba]

If she's anxious seeming, she may be close. If you see some contractions, she's definitely going to pop.

[EasternGirl]

Well, she has seemed a little restless...but so has Selena...I think the heat is bothering them...it has been 90 degrees in Delaware and humid all week. Good grief! How do I recognize contractions in a snake? I see her stomach moving up and down when she breathes all the time....how do I tell a contraction from breathing?

[guidofatherof5]

Here's a video that shows some contractions.
y6WeE_EklAw&feature=related

[EasternGirl]

Thanks, Steve....how many babies did that snake have?

[guidofatherof5]

If I remember correctly it was 23.

[EasternGirl]

I'm so sad...I had found another snake...I think she may have been Cee Cee's sister...I named her Gee Gee...I left her outside, but I was making friends with her...she came right up to me last week. Then, I couldn't find her for a week. I found her dead in my basement last night. It looks like something bit her on the neck. I'm going to give her a proper buriel later today. I am so sad for her.

Selena has not eaten for a month...I'm really getting worried about her...I keep offering her worms and fish...her usual food...but she will not eat. She is active, but not going to the bathroom, since she isn't eating....any suggestions?

[kibakiba]

Sometimes they do that as a way of saying they want more variety. Mama will do that sometimes when I feed her nothing but pinkies, she'll reject them until I give her something else. It could also be that she just isn't hungry. Some snakes will just go off food randomly and then start eating again when they're ready. If she isn't getting skinny, she'll be okay. Most healthy snakes have enough body mass to endure going off food for a month or two. :)

[EasternGirl]

She seems to look healthy enough...she doesn't look skinny...and she is active. So, you don't think I should be worried? I guess I could try offering her a pinkie...she never really liked those all that much...she has always preferred worms and fish.

[kibakiba]

I'd say if you want to, you can keep offering food every once in a while and she'll eat when she's ready. That's like with Mama's babies, all of them (except Specks) would rather starve than eat a worm ;)

If she starts losing a lot of weight, that's when I'd start worrying. When they're healthy, I believe they could go up to... I think, it was 4 months. Activity is always a great thing, lethargy isn't. I guess unless she was about to shed.
All of my snakes will go off food about twice a year it seems. Snakey always does around September. I've had him for 2 years. Each time, though, I had mistakenly overfed him He was quite chubby. He went on a diet and has been at a healthy weight ever since ;)

[EasternGirl]

Thanks, Chantel. I keep offering her food every couple of days in case she decides she is hungry.

[ConcinusMan]

I found her dead in my basement last night. It looks like something bit her on the neck.

Sounds suspiciously like what a rat or other rodent would do. Just one or two fatal bites on the head/neck area is their signature.

[EasternGirl]

Interesting...I figured maybe a rat...although I have never seen any around my house...poor girl.

[EasternGirl]

Hey guys!

I hope everyone is well....finally finished my classes...no more school until my nursing clinicals start next year. Hopefully I will be online more now.

I need some serious advice...Cee Cee gave birth to eight dead babies. No live babies. Why would something like this occur? Could she be ill? She stopped eating over a month ago...which I thought was odd given she was gravid. In fact, I had given up on the idea of her being gravid since she stopped eating and had not given birth....but then I woke up yesterday morning to find six dead babies in her enclosure. She gave birth to another yesterday evening and another in the middle of the night. Thoughts???

[guidofatherof5]

Nice to see you back.

Would you describe what the babies looked like.
Fully developed, underdeveloped, did any break out of the egg sack. Do they seem big or small.
Anything else would be helpful.

[EasternGirl]

Hey Steve...thanks for replying. I didn't see any egg sacs. Two of the babies were stretched out as if they were slithering through the enclosure, but looked like they were missing part of the hind end. The others were curled up and did not look fully developed...or looked as if perhaps Cee Cee ate part of them. Most of them were completely dried up as if they had been sitting there for days...yet, they had not been. Could she have killed all of them? I tried to uncurl them to look and see if I could determine what was going on...I couldn't decide if they looked as if they did not develop fully or if they looked like Cee Cee might have bitten them...but something didn't look right...one or two of the curled up babies looked like their heads weren't developed. It seems odd to me that they would have been born too early, however, because I have had her for at least three, if not four months now I think. If she has anymore babies, I will take a pic. Thanks for your help.

[EasternGirl]

Oh...the two that were uncurled looked decent size and looked like snakes (coloring, head shape, etc.)...the ones that were curled up looked very small and had no coloring, pattern, etc. They were either dried up or very gooey.

[guidofatherof5]

I doubt Cee Cee had anything to do with them.

Sounds like a bad clutch. Just one of those things that happen.
No real way to figure out why. Stress, diet, bad genetics, too cold, too hot or a hundred other things.

[EasternGirl]

Do you think I should worry that Cee Cee may be ill?

[EasternGirl]

By the way, it's good to talk to you, Steve. I should be back on here more now that school is done for a while. How is everything on the ranch?

[ConcinusMan]

Sounds like she went full term but for one reason or another, failed to give birth, and from the description of the condition of the bodies, it sounds as if they were decomposing inside her. This happens sometimes. Nobody really knows why. I suspect that something goes wrong with the transition. And the transition I'm referring to is the one where mom's blood vessels detach from the egg membrane so the babies can move down and out. If that takes too long, or happens too early, the babies have no gas exchange and they suffocate.

I can tell you that she's at risk. Any retained bodies, fragments, or yolks that aren't expelled can cause her to become septic and die. You won't know if this has happened until it's too late. Hopefully she'll pass everything and be OK.