Male Garter looks disoriented - HELP!

[rusty119]

Hello

I am a first time snake owner. My roomate and I rescued our snake Rusty from a friend who's housemate was not taking care of it. He adjusted very well and normally we feed him about 10 feeder fish every 4 weeks. A few days ago, we put in about 10 feeder fish and he still hasn't eaten them. He also looks very disoriented and it seems hard for him to move without shaking his head. My roomate sez he may have been frightened by our cats however he's been fine with them for the past 6 months. Could he possibly be sick?? I'm very worried and would not like to touch him, as I don't want to worsen any possible condition. Is this normal for a snake? Also we live in NYC and it's pretty cold over here (25 degrees F). We have put the heating lamp on at 15 minute intervals. Thanks for your responses in advance!

[Stefan-A]

Sounds like it may be vitamin B1 deficiency. Get it to a vet. What type of fish has it been fed?

Not that this should have anything to do with the symptoms, but garters should be fed once or twice a week.

What type enclosure do you have? What are the temperatures in it?

[guidofatherof5]

I doubt if the cat has anything to do with this situation(I can't believe it, I defended a cat):D

[drache]

ditto the above
where in NYC are you?
you will have trouble finding a vet
you can pm me if you want to talk about your options

[rusty119]

Hello thank you all for your responses.

I am unsure of how to PM in this forum >.<

We are located in upper Manhattan. Originally we were told he could go three months without being fed, but we upped it to once a month. He seemed to be okay with that schedule because he would make himself seen exactly every 4 weeks. When we turn the heat lamp on, he lays directly under it. The type of fish that we feed it are usually the tiny feeder fish found at Petland. What is usually the cause of this deficiency and how are we able to help him out?

Also if you could let me know how to PM on this forum. Thank you very much!

[Stefan-A]

If you can't PM yet, you should be able to do it soon. If you click on someone's username, you should get a drop-down menu with the option to "send a private message".

[gregmonsta]

Hello thank you all for your responses.

I am unsure of how to PM in this forum >.<

We are located in upper Manhattan. Originally we were told he could go three months without being fed, but we upped it to once a month. He seemed to be okay with that schedule because he would make himself seen exactly every 4 weeks. When we turn the heat lamp on, he lays directly under it. The type of fish that we feed it are usually the tiny feeder fish found at Petland. What is usually the cause of this deficiency and how are we able to help him out?

Also if you could let me know how to PM on this forum. Thank you very much!

You've had some pretty awful advice there. Speak to Rhea about vets in the area and also check this - Garter Snake Care Sheet - Caresheets (http://www.thamnophis.com/caresheets/index.php?title=Garter_Snake_Care_Sheet) to read up on proper care requirements for the future.
If the problem is a vitamin deficiency the first thing a vet will do is administer a vitamin boosting injection. If all goes well you will have to cater for this nutritional need in the future.
The feeding section of the care-sheet will point you in the right direction.
Unfortunately, if the deficiency is too advanced then it might be too late to save him but it doesn't sound like you've witnessed full on seizures yet.
Fingers crossed for you. Keep us up to date and don't hesisitate to ask any further questions.

[jitami]

edit: wrote below before seeing Greg's response... the care sheet is a great place to start!

Get a thermometer and put it in the tank. Any small thermometer will work. They sell some small digital thermometers at walmart for around $10. Then you can see if you can leave the light on longer for him. You want a temperature gradient with a basking spot not warmer than 90 degrees.

His constant fish diet is probably to blame, but it's hard to say for sure. Hopefully Rhea can point you towards a good herp vet in the area. Here's some info on Thiaminase (B1 deficiency). It's an old article and the links are dead, but still good info: The long story on Thiaminase and vitamin B1 (http://forum.kingsnake.com/garter/messages/13452.html)

In the meantime try using feeding guppies and no goldfish. I would try to get him to take a pinky mouse, too. If he's used to fishing for his dinner try dropping one in the dish of water with a couple of fish and he'll likely take the pinky and the fish. If he spits it out the first time, don't worry. Try the same process a few days to a week later. Sometimes it just takes them a few tries to get used to the taste & texture.

Wishing you the best with the little guy.

[ConcinusMan]

Sounds like textbook B1 deficiency. An exclusive diet of fish isn't necessarily bad, although it is not the best thing. But if it's the wrong kind of fish, it would slowly kill the snake. Once a month is not even close to enough food. Sounds like they were giving you advice for an adult boa or python. Garters are not pythons obviously.

If you're seeing tremors and it is caused by B1 deficiency, about the only chance the snake has is a vet who can give him B1 injections. Giving it to him orally isn't enough.

Good luck.

[Odie]

Hi, from Oregon, rusty119 :)

[drache]

Rusty, we're not in good shape here
from what I understand the care at Manhattan's newish exotic pet veterinarians leaves much to be desired - so much in fact that I would not put a garter through the stress of bringing her there. I'm in Brooklyn though. You could call them and ask specifically whether they can give your snake a B1 shot.
My local herp vet here is pretty okay for anything short of surgery. Her name is Dr Jill Caruso and she's at Pet Haven, Corner of McDonald Ave and Caton Ave, close to the F train @ Ft Hamilton Pkwy, phone 718-435-6900
if either does not work for you, your best bet is a friendly neighbourhood vet who's main purpose in live is to help critters and who's willing to give your snake a vitamin B1 shot.
If you do have a car, Sean (animal rescue guy) tells me there's a good herp vet in New Jersey. I can find out where.

[guidofatherof5]

Rusty,
Please keep us posted about your situation.

[rusty119]

Hi everyone, thank you very much for all your responses. Looks like we need to change up the complete setup of Rusty's snake tank. Since the last post, we have been leaving the heat lamp on for longer intervals, much longer. Now he's moving around the tank and very active and even lifts his head up when anyone comes next to the tank. I am going to stop by petland right now and buy a thermometer, as well as some feeding guppies and a pinky.

Thank you Rhea very much for the location of a vet. Actually a vet in New Jersey may be better because we live closer to the GWB. We may be able to take a bus ride there, rather than bringing him on the train. I will give the vet in Brooklyn a call today, I can try to get access to a car, but it may not be available until after the new year.

Someone said that getting the injection is better than orally, but is there a way that I can atleast get some to him orally in the meantime? It's the holiday weekend, so I'm sure that I won't get anyone until Monday and I can't stand to see him like this! Atleast it seems like he's getting better.

Thank you!

[ConcinusMan]

Hi everyone, thank you very much for all your responses. Looks like we need to change up the complete setup of Rusty's snake tank. Since the last post, we have been leaving the heat lamp on for longer intervals, much longer. Now he's moving around the tank and very active and even lifts his head up when anyone comes next to the tank. I am going to stop by petland right now and buy a thermometer, as well as some feeding guppies and a pinky.

Thank you Rhea very much for the location of a vet. Actually a vet in New Jersey may be better because we live closer to the GWB. We may be able to take a bus ride there, rather than bringing him on the train. I will give the vet in Brooklyn a call today, I can try to get access to a car, but it may not be available until after the new year.

Someone said that getting the injection is better than orally, but is there a way that I can atleast get some to him orally in the meantime? It's the holiday weekend, so I'm sure that I won't get anyone until Monday and I can't stand to see him like this! Atleast it seems like he's getting better.

Thank you!

A vet is needed to determine if it is indeed B1 deficiency, and the dosage has to me measured carefully. Otherwise, you could OD him on B1 and that wouldn't be pretty. If it's B1 deficiency caused by the wrong fish (containing the enzyme thiaminase) then any B1 given orally will be destroyed by the enzyme still in his body and that is what caused (if that is the case) the deficiency in the first place.

Remember, we don't know if he even has B1 deficiency yet. If you can't manage to get him to a vet, then do what you're doing, keeping him warm so he's active, and switch his food to safe fish and/or pinkies and hope for the best.

I don't know why you would only give him heat at 15 minute intervals. Give him 14 hours a day, and if you can, put the lights/heat on a timer. Night should be at the same time every night and should be no more than 10 hours and get no colder than 65 degrees. During the day he should have a warm spot from 80-88 degrees and a cooler area in the 70's.

[rusty119]

Its 6:25 in the morning and we have just found our lil guy has met his end :( Very sad right now. I'm not sure we could have done anything to help him, no matter what we did, he remained very weak and unable to eat. We would have sought help today, but with the 10 inches+ snow, it was inevitable that we would not be able to help him in time. Thank you all very much for your help. I am going to remain a member of this forum, as we are planning to get another snake. Nobody can replace Rusty, but we would like to give it a shot again and this time do everything the correct way from the beginning. I'm very happy to have found this forum so that this doesn't happen again. Thanks again and I will keep you all up to date.

[guidofatherof5]

I'm very sorry to hear about Rusty's passing.
I hope you will get another snake under better circumstances.
Thank you for trying to help Rusty.

[gregmonsta]

You did everything you could and you definately cared for the little one. Hope to see you on here again soon with a fresh start ;). Remember you have our support and a lot of members here will have have you spoilt with choice come baby season ;)

[drache]

sorry to hear

[ConcinusMan]

Sorry to hear it. I'm glad this didn't kill your interest in keeping another garter. It's quite rewarding. Might want to take a look at the for sale/trade/adoption section of the forum and see if there's any available that suit your fancy.;)

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I was just browsing through but did I read that correctly? You were told he could go without food for 3 months, and you were feeding fishes only once per month?! oh my gosh.... that is the most horrible advice i have ever heard given out! you poor people! That poor snake! I am actually shocked that no one else said this, but it sounds to me like plain old starvation/malnutrition. His head was probably wobbling due to gradual weakening from slow starvation. He is definitely disoriented, and with good reason. I have seen the dreaded head wobble on rescue snakes... they are too weak to hold their own head steady and often are at the point of no return. It's not the same as any sort of convulsion/spasm... I would say maybe, if it was a pinky once a month the snake would have been thin, but still hanging in there... but fish are used up so quickly...:eek:

All you need to do to see what happened here... is to stand back and look at the big picture: I wasn't everyone who has garter experience to think about what a steady diet of a few empty feeder fish once a month would do to an adult garter snake if that regimen were continued for an extended period of time (especially a snake that is provided with any sort of heat and therefore has an increased metabolic rate). I say empty feeders because we need to remember that once feeder fish reach the pet store, their health declines rapidly, because they are no longer fed and have not been for weeks. They are just empty sacks of meat and bones, void of any real nutritional value. This snake was probably not only deficient in thiamine, but every other vitamin there is!

Rusty, please note that none of this is directed at you, as you clearly were given very bad information and did not know any better, and I understand that! Everyone has gone all textbook here about the whole thiaminase thing... and while thiaminase was probably a part of the problem, it was more than likely one small part of a much larger picture.