Expensive garters

[ConcinusMan]

I still can't believe any ball python is worth $10,000. Ridiculous! but that's not why I started this thread.

Scott recently sold some garter snakes around $300 each. They weren't even captive "designer" snakes. I don't get it. I guess that's one thing I'll never understand. pricing. Last year, CB baby concinnus were going for no less than $35 each. So, I thought, great. I can do that. I'll even sell them at only $20. WRONG! This year, I had to pretty much give them away. Go figure. I also don't understand why atratus are worth so much (at least, for now). Scott said "because they are rarely available". Well how many friggen blue concinnus are available? Still aren't worth $300 apparently, and still not worth the $100 price tag placed on drab olive atratus with a yellow stripe. Not really all that spectacular if you ask me.

How is this drab thing available in more numbers than the next snake...

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll86/aSnakeLovinBabe/Snakes/Garters/7546071.jpg

worth at least 3X more than this?
http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/4568/anerys021large.jpg

Somebody enlighten me.

Seems that snakes as an investment isn't a good idea. By the time you buy snakes at the outrageous price, and are able to produce them yourself, so has everyone else and the price drops like a rock. There just isn't many of them out there in the wild. I won't do that.

I've had a lot of inquiries for blue concinnus (more so than normals) so demand is there. I just refuse to catch wild snakes in enough numbers to meet that demand, for the sake of profit.

Even so, I don't see anyone willing to pay $300 for that blue concinnus (she's WC and not for sale anyway) no matter how rarely available they are. I intend to use her to breed CB babies. The question is, even if CB blue anery babies are available in limited numbers, for the first time EVER, then why will nobody pay $100 for them, but they will pay that for a drab olive snake no prettier than a very ordinary garter snake?

Stumped...

[mb90078]

Looks to me like it's the business side of things more than anything. When I was looking into buying garters a little under a year ago, Scott was a little high (to me) on just about everything. But as you touched on, you're not just buying the snake itself, but you know that the person you're buying from is quite possibly one of, if not the best garter breeders out there, with a great reputation. Like you alluded to, he has all kinds of variety to offer as well. I bet if he were selling your blue con's, he'd get a hell of a lot more for them than you did.

One more small point about your specific criticism. The one garter is a rare breed, while yours is a rare morph. Just something to think about.

[guidofatherof5]

Nothing drab about that Thamnophis atratus. Beautiful snake.
Both snakes are wonderful.;)

[ConcinusMan]

Looks to me like it's the business side of things more than anything. When I was looking into buying garters a little under a year ago, Scott was a little high (to me) on just about everything. But as you touched on, you're not just buying the snake itself, but you know that the person you're buying from is quite possibly one of, if not the best garter breeders out there, with a great reputation. Like you alluded to, he has all kinds of variety to offer as well. I bet if he were selling your blue con's, he'd get a hell of a lot more for them than you did.

One more small point about your specific criticism. The one garter is a rare breed, while yours is a rare morph. Just something to think about.


Yeah, I was having some dialogue with Scott a few months ago about an Iowa albino. As common as they are, $110 shipped still seems a bit high. He is also known to purchase WC garters that are "special" genetically, even those that aren't new to the trade at all, and pay a lot of money for them. And yet, he flat out rejects concinnus of any kind, even the blue ones. He's not in the least bit interested at any price. That's also one of those things that make me go "hmm.." ??? Apparently, he knows something I don't.

This isn't really about Scott anyway, and I'm not in it for the money either, so don't misunderstand. I'm just trying to understand the market. I even asked Don what he thought. If I were to breed CB blue anery concinnus what does he think they would be worth, even if available for the first time? He didn't seem to think they were worth more than $60 and quite possibly would be worth even less. Again, I don't get it.


The one garter is a rare breed, while yours is a rare morph. Just something to think about.

Believe me, I have thought of that. All I hear is bragging about "the worlds first snow red-sided garter" well so what? Looks just like any other snow garter. It's also a rare morph but definitely not a rare breed. Do you think for one minute, if 20 or 30 of them were produced next year, that they wouldn't sell for much more than a blue anery concinnus? I think they would sell for much more even if I, the newcomer, was selling them.

I also don't agree that anyone is "the best" breeder. He's simply the richest, been at it longer, and has some rare morphs. That doesn't make anyone "the best" breeder.

But seriously, is that all it takes? a reputation? Seems rather shallow to pay extra just because the snake is coming from a certain person. I paid $75 shipped for my Iowa albino and he couldn't be any finer a snake if it came from anyone else. Scott wanted $110.

This is my first year ever selling snakes. I do it first because I love the hobby, love having litters born, etc. I shipped out quite a few this year. I don't recall ever having a single complaint. I even had people that insisted on going to another breeder to buy baby concinnus. They were the very same concinnus born right here in my house. The breeder got them from me! Somehow the fact that they're coming from a "reputable" breeder makes them worth more? Perhaps. But still, that doesn't seem to account for all the difference in price.

If Scott, Don, Shannon, any breeder with a "rep" were selling this blue anery or her babies, would anyone pay more than $60 for them, even if they were available for the first time ever? I have my doubts.

[guidofatherof5]

The breeders you referenced have a track record. I think when people purchase a snake they want the peace of mind that comes with knowing the breeder has been doing it for some time. Call that reputation or something else but knowing that the person you are dealing with will be there next year is important.
I by no means think that it's something against you or your snakes but rather a lack of experience(time) in the market place.
It takes time to build a clientèle which is then spread by word of mouth which in turns creates new customers.
I think it's a time issue.
I'm sure Scott, Don, Jeff, and Shannon( and the others) could tell us about the early days when they were just getting started and much would be the same.
I know I have very little track record as a breeder but still I try. I'd love to make some money but don't really care at this point. I have a hard time letting any of my kids go.
I'd rather keep them all to myself and enjoy their company.
I do feel good that some of my snakes are in UT, NY, TX, CO, MO, IA, NE. Still plenty of States to go but I'm not in a rush.
"Resistance is futile, all the States will be assimilated":D

Just my thoughts on the matter.;)

[mb90078]

I'm not arguing that any of my previous post is very rational, just pointing out why I think those differences exist.

But to answer your last question, yes, I think they would, if they marketed it as such (front page on their websites, heavy promotion, etc.).

[ConcinusMan]

OK, OK. Very good points. This is helpful. I still don't see a blue anery concinus, even if it's the "bluest of the blue" (They do vary) matching the price of some snakes/morphs that are more common, been around for a while, and being sold by reputable breeders and at this point, that is what I'm trying to understand.

And why do you suppose the price of regular concinnus dropped so much between last year and this year? Even Don told me recently, they weren't selling very well. I mean, I did manage to ship out as many as I needed to, but that involved flat out giving some away, and/or selling them at much less than I invested in caring for them until they were ready.

I noticed the same thing happened even with blue pugets. Shoot, last year they were very high. (triple digits)This year the price was ridiculously low in spite of their popularity and relative scarcity. :confused:

And people are still asking for them!

[guidofatherof5]

Buying trends?
I think that this forum has an effect on the snakes that are sold.
Someone posts a picture and comment are made that help drive and interest in buying that animal.
Coupled with who's selling it and bingo, prices go up.

[zooplan]

If Scott, Don, Shannon, any breeder with a "rep" were selling this blue anery or her babies, would anyone pay more than $60 for them, even if they were available for the first time ever? I have my doubts.

Normal price for a Santa Cruz Garter Snake in Europe is 40 to 65 €.
If you manage to ship the blue concinnus or erythristic ordinoides to Europe you´ll get a nice price!

The reputation is not all: you´d have to permanentlly feed the market with informations and hymns about your breeding success, rareness and beauty of your offspring:D

Like said before: that´s business!:cool:
At least you need an own website and time for much posts in many forums.
Better would be to make other people to talk about you!

[ConcinusMan]

People talk about me, but mostly about how I say things that make people angry. It's so much easier to get people to speak out publicly about you when you make them angry. Do or say one thing wrong and everybody hears about it. When you do 20 things right and good, nobody notices and nobody says anything.

The price you quoted me is about 50-90 US dollars. I would only get that if I had a teleporter. No offense, but by the time you consider the cost of getting them there, the snakes that would not make it there alive, and cost of converting currency, I would probably net less than I can get right here in the USA.

In other words, the price you quoted isn't worth one penny to me if I can't get that price here. I can only ship within the United States and even that costs at least $30 to ship just a few snakes. Heck, if I gave them away for free here in the USA, nobody is going to pay the money to have them shipped over there if they can only get 40-60 euros. That won't even cover their costs.

So it's no wonder that there are not very many species available there.


Buying trends?
I think that this forum has an effect on the snakes that are sold.
Someone posts a picture and comment are made that help drive and interest in buying that animal.
Coupled with who's selling it and bingo, prices go up.

Sounds good, but in practice, it doesn't explain anything. Yes, I've posted pictures and generated much interest in the blue anery concinnus. Doesn't make people want to pay much more for them than a normal.

[snakeman]

Unless you have concinnus with cherry red heads they just don't sell.Its always been like that in my experience.The three stripe ones don't sell either.Probally the same reason fitchi don't sell.

[infernalis]

About the only thing I have to say is Yes it matters very much who is selling and what they are selling and how they market it.

If you started selling pet rocks tomorrow. But your pet rocks were better than my pet rocks but I had a web site with a well known URL, I was on 20 forums and had export deals already in place then your pet rocks are going to be harder for you to sell regardless of pricing.

Networking is important, advertising is paramount and history is unalterable.

So Get those web sites up, do tables at expos, shake a lot of hands, spend a fortune and endure a lot of losses, keep at it, please your customers, and in several years of hard work, you can sell anything left and right and maybe one day turn a profit.

a couple classified ads is not going to do a whole lot.

[drache]

first of all - I love that atratus, and if I had that kind of cash, I'd happily fork it over
and if I had more space I'd happily pay you more than sixty bucks for that concinnus also, but not much more
beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and I myself care for the blue snakes more in theory than in practice. I like concinnus better than infernalis, and I like the normal concinnus just fine, so while I see that your concinnus is beautiful, I myself would prefer a dull melanogaster

As to the breeding and reputation part
I do believe that breeding a variety on a largish scale like Scott (for example) takes space, and recordkeeping, and swallowing losses, just like many other businesses.



I also don't agree that anyone is "the best" breeder. He's simply the richest, been at it longer, and has some rare morphs. That doesn't make anyone "the best" breeder.
That's plain silly. As far as I know, Scott still has a day job.
The breeding part is creating good conditions and wishing for the best - there are no guarantees. How you interact with your customers - that's a whole other realm. Scott has done right by me many times, and I've not heard any complaints about him, have you? There aren't many people selling garters that inspire this kind of confidence

of course there is also the other publicity model - the one whereby complaints apparently get you google notoriety http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/28/business/28borker.html?scp=1&sq=rude%20brooklyn%20business%20publicity&st=cse
please don't go for that model, even if it seems easier than the other kind

[infernalis]

I'll back Rhea on that.

I know for a fact that Scott still has a day job.

Call him up and ask him yourself, the number is everywhere including his site.

And please don't take this personally Richard, I don't mean this as malicious in any way.

But Scott has people skills. ;)

[gregmonsta]

To be honest - the joys of business and fashion are beyond me. Wether it's a snake or clothes or cars or anything.
There's a certain amount of profiteering to be had with just about everything and it doesn't necessarily reflect on the quality of the item either.

The best, most overblown example is the royal python market - the most common excuse is - "think of the time it took to develop that morph"
That statement banks on the fact that, even though it took 5 years to develop, you don't think about all the other snakes hatched and sold in the process (ie, already covering itself). The greedy breeder then tries to pay his mortage with his 'one off'.

I'm so glad this isn't a regularity with garter snakes. You'll find that there is a distinct price difference between America, the UK and the European mainland. You would probably be very surprised by the comparisons and, to be honest, Scotts prices definately aren't overly excessive by any means.

At any rate, anyone can ask a price and you can choose to pay. I refuse to pay more than £100 for any snake out of principle just like I choose to stay away from branded goods and will never buy designer clothes, etc.

[ConcinusMan]

Unless you have concinnus with cherry red heads they just don't sell.Its always been like that in my experience.The three stripe ones don't sell either.Probally the same reason fitchi don't sell.

Yeah, lesson learned. I'm not breeding any of my normals next spring. Heck, I don't even have a normal male adult. Just two females and a hypoery male. I'm only going to breed my bluest anery trio since I can be relatively sure the babies will sell. They've been brumating since mid Nov. and I'm bringing them out in late Feb.

My normals (3 stripe and black headed) are typical in the extreme northern willamette valley and SW WA. I know now where to find the brightest spectacular looking ones. They are found from Salem southward and around Eugene. The northern one's just aren't all that spectacular I admit.

Oh, and day job or not, I don't even have to add up the prices of the snakes Scott sold in the past couple of months to know it comes to way more money than many of us have in the bank, and then there's the assets (the apparently valuable snakes he has) and that's what I was getting at. Maybe "richest" wasn't the right word for it.

Thanks everyone for the input and insight, and thanks for not "jumping down my throat". I'm really just trying to understand the market a bit since I'm new to this. I've never sold a snake in my life until this year. The input from all of you has been helpful.

[gregmonsta]

The price you quoted me is about 50-90 US dollars. I would only get that if I had a teleporter. No offense, but by the time you consider the cost of getting them there, the snakes that would not make it there alive, and cost of converting currency, I would probably net less than I can get right here in the USA.

:confused: really? ... If you sell the snakes .... at your price .... and the buyer is liable for transport costs .... then you don't lose a single penny surely? :rolleyes:
I'm sure that possible losses from transport for such a long journey would not be your concern either considering the buyer is requesting the snake-marathon (24hr guarrantee might not apply in this situation). Buyers that choose to import are aware of the risks. As long as the condition and packing of the snakes is top .... you've done your job.

[ConcinusMan]

I'm just saying if I got that price for them from someone wanting to export them, that kills it right there since it wouldn't be profitable at all for the exporter. I just got a PM from someone wanting to export some next year. They want to pay "wholesale" prices. Well, if it's anything like this year, that would be about $5-$10 each. I honestly believe that the only reason there's any garters at all over there is because people have rounded up hundreds of WC snakes, and sold them to an exporter dirt cheap.

I sent some normal babies and one adult to an exporter this year. They only had to go from me to Florida. They made it just fine. From there, they went to Canada. NONE of the babies made it there alive.:cool:

[gregmonsta]

Well .... the power is yours to set the price you deem fit and stick to it. If you believe in the quality of your snakes set yourself some baselines.
Get an average shop value or breeder value and work from there
Eg - private sale to enthusiats - half shop price/average breeder rate
wholesale at a third of shop price
But then again I have no idea of the American market and won't consider wholesale in the future (considering that a lot of wholesalers aren't terribly well known for care provision).

[ConcinusMan]

Well .... the power is yours to set the price you deem fit and stick to it.

And end up keeping them all because they don't sell? No thanks. I was forced to drop the price down to almost nothing because I need to move them and nobody was buying otherwise.:cool:

[Ryachanira]

Okay I obviously have no knowledge about the snake market, with my one little blind rescue snake.. haha. But just wanted to say, that IF my husband would let me get another snake (which since we got Silv I have been begging for, with no avail), I would totally be all over those blue babies.... completely gorgeous. I actually told him that if Silv died I wanted a blue snake next. Luckily Silv didn't die. :)

So really no point to this post except that your blue babies are gorgeous and that personally, I find them more attractive than the first snake, and would be willing to pay more. ;)

[ConcinusMan]

I must add that just like flame easterns, their color varies. That very bluest girl I have is really the exception. It is unknown at this point if very young babies will appear blue at all. It's possible that they "color up" with age.

Here's some pictures illustrating the varying color:

http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/6444/dscn1515large.jpg
http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/3101/aneryshannon006medium.jpg
http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/38/anerys034large.jpg

I have no idea what babies look like. I imagine they are anery right from the start of course, but I don't know how blue, if at all, they will be. I guess we'll find out next year.

[ConcinusMan]

http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/8271/morphs017large.jpg
http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/1562/dscn0523e.jpg
http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/5194/dscn0554v.jpg

[gregmonsta]

But then again I have no idea of the American market and won't consider wholesale in the future (considering that a lot of wholesalers aren't terribly well known for care provision).


And end up keeping them all because they don't sell? No thanks. I was forced to drop the price down to almost nothing because I need to move them and nobody was buying otherwise.:cool:

:rolleyes: referring to my earlier statement. Part of the difficulty for you will indeed be partly due to the fact that people can self-collect (having seen statements like 'I don't see the point in paying for a garter when I can just go and get one.' on this forum before).
But at the same time if you want to be taken seriously as a breeder you do have to stick to your guns on pricing.
Shops/wholesalers will expect to pay peanuts because of the availabillity of WC and thats were private breeders have to stick to their guns in order to keep CB established at a higher price due to a degree of quality assurance.
If you drop the price to WC level you're throwing future plans out of the window. If people aren't buying spread the advertising, go to shows, etc. Anything to increase your profile.
After your first year you may find that feedback/referral from previous customers will stand you in better sted next year. Fingers crossed :rolleyes:

[kibakiba]

Honestly, I would pay a lot for an annery concinnus, from Richard. I already know that he is someone I can trust when it comes to shipping off a snake and it coming to me exactly how it should. Sure we butt heads over stuff but even with that I wouldn't hesitate to buy another snake from him, if I had the time, money and proper heating for them. Heck, I'd be all over any blue garter I could find. I'd be more reluctant to buy from someone I haven't bought from, reputable or not, than I would buying from someone I already know and trust.
That is just my opinion, though.

[mb90078]

But at the same time if you want to be taken seriously as a breeder you do have to stick to your guns on pricing.
Shops/wholesalers will expect to pay peanuts because of the availabillity of WC and thats were private breeders have to stick to their guns in order to keep CB established at a higher price due to a degree of quality assurance.
If you drop the price to WC level you're throwing future plans out of the window. If people aren't buying spread the advertising, go to shows, etc. Anything to increase your profile.
After your first year you may find that feedback/referral from previous customers will stand you in better sted next year. Fingers crossed :rolleyes:

I can see two sides to that argument. I see where you're coming from, but on the other hand, as someone new to breeding, offering snakes at below market value is a good way to get people to jump at his offers. Building a customer base for future transactions is important. Like you say at the end of your post, your reputation is important, and part of building it may mean you make a few less bucks early in your "career". If you simply hold out until someone bites, as ConcMan fears, he may not sell any, and certainly wont generate any buzz. There are certainly different ways to approach the game. But patience is important. Again, I'm not an experienced snake breeder/seller myself, but I'm just basing this on observations that I have made, combined with what I have learned about the way business in general works.

[ConcinusMan]

My main concern is I had a lot of babies and was working 7 days a week. The babies were getting big fast, and trying to feed that many of them while keeping them from fighting was getting to be a real PITA. They were selling but not fast enough. That's the main reason I let a lot of 10 go for $5 each.(+shipping) I just wanted them gone and to a good home. It was much easier on me to take care of the rest after cutting down on their numbers.

You know, I didn't think much of it at the time but my first two transactions, and my first two times shipping were with reputable well known people. Don and Shannon. I've actually dealt with Don several times. I've bought and traded snakes with him on several occasions, and he has received snakes from me more than once so I guess that's a start. Shannon is the only breeder other than myself that has an adult pair of the blue anerys (that was my very first time shipping)and yet I have a feeling if we both produce litters and I sell mine cheaper, hers will still sell first. She also has the benefit of selling them at shows since she's in PA and close to them.

The only show I could possibly get to just flat out doesn't allow sirtalis', native or not. If it's a sirtals of any subspecies, I can't bring them to the show or sell them there unfortunately. Radix would be fine, but no sirtalis'.

[Spankenstyne]

"Seems that snakes as an investment isn't a good idea."
This sums it up wonderfully. ;)

Keep and continue to work with what you're passionate about & don't sweat it. Garters in general aren't in huge demand in most places, it's a small niche of an already fringe hobby, you'll drive yourself batty trying to rationalize demand for certain species & mutations. Unless you enjoy the business world, the business end will only stress you out.

Best of luck with the blue concinnus, I know that I absolutely love the male I got from you & hope to be able to add some females in the future. It's really unfortunate that the babies didn't make it but all things considered with the abnormal circumstances and time involved (all from my end) I'm really happy the male at least did. At the end of the day I was very happy with how you handled the transaction and would certainly deal with you again.

[drache]

see, Richard, you made a beginning

and yeah - sitting on a bunch of babies who need more care than adults is a hassle
"you know, the easier it looks, the harder it hooks - there is no such thing as easy money" Ricky Lee Jones YouTube - Rickie Lee Jones: Easy Money (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCyQOJxWOkA&feature=related)

[ConcinusMan]

I tend to think the babies didn't make it because they sat there at the importer for what was it, two weeks? or else they just don't know how to care for them or handle the shipping when it comes to babies.

[Spankenstyne]

I think it was more like a month there? I forget the exact timetable though.
For what it's worth I believe it was the importers lack of experience with baby garters, coupled with bad timing and other circumstances (all from our end). The shipping end was fine, you packaged well on your end and they did also, no issues at all with shipping.

Point being that you handled your end as you said you would and I appreciated that. As someone who has been involved in the hobby for over 20 years now it's unfortunate how rare that has become.

[Tyrel26]

Well for what its worth I could easily get a minimum of $100 for one of those blue snakes of yours (I could sell many more). Its just the matter of knowing where to sell in many cases; and luck is also a big factor. In the past I had garters that had a surprise litter and it was a big one lol. Over 40 babies! So I decided to try and sell them. At $60 a piece I ran out of snakes in less than 2 weeks. Its too bad you couldn't get a batch to me lol, we could go 50/50.

I don't think I'll be selling again tho.....to hard to let go of them lol. I only sold these because I wasn't prepared for them.

[ConcinusMan]

Different snakes, different market, and not even the same country.^^^


... I bet if he were selling your blue con's, he'd get a hell of a lot more for them than you did.


did? I didn't sell or produce any litters of blue anerys. Nobody ever has. 2011 will be the first breeding attempt. I was simply stating that santa cruz garters are selling for $100 and near as I can tell, that's probably more than anyone is willing to pay for baby concinnus', blue or not.


.
Get an average shop value or breeder value and work from there


There isn't an average price for blue anery concinnus since they have never been on the market that I am aware of. Most breeders and potential buyers didn't even know they existed, and had never seen one until this year. There are just a few pairs of adults for breeding and I have all of them except for one pair. Babies have never been available or produced in captivity. Doesn't mean they will sell for $100 like the santa cruz garters do.

[gregmonsta]

Going by current trends I would add a third to half of the value of an ordinary concinnus. It seems strange that anery concinnus aren't well known in the country of origin considering I've seen them in an autopsy pdf - completely bleached/black and white individual (German source) as well as Hans having a green anery in his collection here in Europe.

[drache]

I'd say also that you may be able to ask more a few years down the line when you've brought out a particular strain through selective breeding
just like the normals become more pricey when their head are bright red, anerys probably do when their colouring heads into the neon blacklight realm

[infernalis]

I was simply stating that santa cruz garters are selling for $100 and near as I can tell, that's probably more than anyone is willing to pay for baby concinnus', blue or not..


I know lots of people who have paid $100 for a blue snake, myself included.

[EasternGirl]

I don't think that you can even find garter's to buy around here. I did recently find out that it is illegal to own any kind of snake in my state, and that if you are caught with one, you are fined and the snake is killed. That makes me angry on so many levels that I can't even verbalize it. I would be interested to know if you can buy garters in Delaware.

[ConcinusMan]

Going by current trends I would add a third to half of the value of an ordinary concinnus. It seems strange that anery concinnus aren't well known in the country of origin considering I've seen them in an autopsy pdf - completely bleached/black and white individual (German source) as well as Hans having a green anery in his collection here in Europe.

Anery concinnus are well known as a completely black and white snake or also having a yellow or greenish stripe. Anyway, I've seen those that you just mentioned. Those don't appear to be the same thing. I'm talking about these:

http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/4568/anerys021large.jpg
http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/8271/morphs017large.jpg

I had a heck of a time searching for anery pics that I didn't shoot and/or upload myself in 2010. I found one other blue anery morph pic posted prior to my pics in 2009 by someone that lives in the same area where these are found. You just can find any buzz about this morph, or pics posted before 2009 and certainly nobody breeding them or selling them. That's what I meant.

I'd say also that you may be able to ask more a few years down the line when you've brought out a particular strain through selective breeding
just like the normals become more pricey when their head are bright red, anerys probably do when their colouring heads into the neon blacklight realm

Yeah, well nature has already taken care of that. There is nothing more to select for, other than choosing the bluest anerys or brightest orange heads for breeding. Both of these already occur naturally and the traits are just locale-specific. If you want to find extremely vibrant intensely colored/orange headed they occur in the southern portion of their range, just as these blue one's occur in specific area. Same goes for the black headed and 3 stripe version.


I know lots of people who have paid $100 for a blue snake, myself included.

And those were not concinnus':cool:

[infernalis]

Your missing the point Richard, time it right, I would give $100 for a blue one.

[ConcinusMan]

Get ready guys. I'm sure litters of these blue anery's will be available this season. Shannon had a lock up, I have one that I suspect is already gravid, and I came home yesterday to find another pair of mine locked up. Of course, I already know, the babies might be very blue, or more than likely, not very blue, but CB anery's are coming.

[Mix]

For what it's worth, were I across the pond, I would absolutely want one. With a $100 price tag.
If my lottery numbers ever come up, I'll be there!

[drache]

"if I were a rich man, ya ha deedle deedle, bubba bubba deedle deedle dum . . . "
all day long I'd diddle with my snakes, if I were a wealthy man
I'd build a reptile room with cages by the dozens, and I'd fill my yard with monitor lizards and tortoises instead of geese and ducks
what I really need is more real estate, so I can house all the garters my covetous heart desires

[gregmonsta]

For what it's worth, were I across the pond, I would absolutely want one. With a $100 price tag.
If my lottery numbers ever come up, I'll be there!

That $100 translates as £62 which is cheaper than a normal over here. I paid £70-80 for my 'normals'/potential hets (not including travel). If I do produce anery offspring in 2012/13 I'd be looking at charging around the £150 mark.

[Chondro788]

Aside from everything else said, I think the blue concinnus are awesome and will gladly pay $100 or more for the right animal. But then I think you know that Richard.

[ConcinusMan]

I highly doubt I will be charging $100. That sounds like a fair price for exceptionally blue snakes that are at least subadult size. I can already tell you that the neonates will either not show how blue they can become, or that most of them won't become "super" blue as adults. The very blue ones I have been showing you are exceptional. They don't represent the majority.

Still, they are a very desireable color morph and certainly, most will at least color up enough to look like this guy:
http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/1836/dsc00060largez.jpg

[Jeff B]

I just read this whole post Richard.
Richard this was YOUR project, YOUR snakes, nobody else in the whole wide world had snakes like this, the beautiful rare and unique blue concinous, or whatever YOU call them now. This was YOUR project, YOUR project, YOU had the opportunity to call them what YOU wanted, market them how YOU saw fit, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY YOU HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO DESIDE WHAT THEY ARE WORTH. However in order to do that you had to place value you on them yourself, obviously if you were giving them away and then you come on a forum and tell everybody that you gave them away and that they aren't worth $20, WELL THEN RICHARD YOU ONLY HAVE TO LOOK IN THE MIRROR TO SEE WHY THEY ARE COMPLETELY WORTHLESS AND HAVE BEEN COMPLETELY DEVALUED. Then you come on here crying about how it's not fair how all the big breeders this and that crap.
The only difference is that we do value our snakes, we do value the hard work and time that goes into producing them, and we stick to our guns to their value (that doesn't mean I won't cut deals with people, but I won't give them away and then publisize that they are now worthless), and we don't expect them to sell the day we produce them, instead we expect that raising babies is THE MOST WORK of the whole seasonal process. It's work, work, and more work. Marketing and advirtising is a lot of work, maintaining a web site is a ton of work, placing ads, ect. tons of work. Feeding, cleaning, breeding=work, raising babies=tons of work. If you devalue the animal after all that work, well then thats on YOU pal.

[infernalis]

Very well stated Jeff.

And no disrespect intended Richard, many of us know you well enough by now that your "people skills" (More to the point, lack thereof) no longer grate on our nerves, however most of your potential customers are not the same folks you spend all day interacting with, so when you "rub them the wrong way" they would rather go without the snakes, if you get what I mean.

There is an old saying "He could sell snowballs to Eskimos" translated, he is one smooth talker....

You have to get past the "first date" if you want to make it to the wedding. ;)

Again, I want to make sure, I am not trying to be insulting, I mean nothing malicious, It's advice, nothing more.

[ConcinusMan]

I think you misunderstood Jeff, I have never given away any of the anery's. It was normals I was talking about. I didn't have any effect on the price of those last year. The year before, they were selling just fine at $35 each. Then I had over 50 of them last season and couldn't hardly give them away. It was either be stuck with them, or sell them for what people were willing to pay for them, which wasn't much. Certainly not $35 each like the year before. The market determined the price, not me. It does me no good whatsoever to demand $35 each for normals if nobody is going to buy them at that price. The only way was able to get them moving was to sell them much cheaper than that.

Now I will have CB litters of the anery's for the first time available, and so will Shannon. It's hard to say how much people are going to be willing to pay for them, but I'm certainly not going to value them so high that it takes me 3 years to sell the litters. The general concensus that I get, is that people are willing to buy them at about 1.5 to 2 times the value of normals, which as I said, I do not quote the value of those. It's determined by the market, not me. I need to sell even the anerys at a price that will get them sold by the end of the year.

Anyway, that is still up in the air. Shannon and I need to see how many offspring we have, and go from there. We'll talk and work out a value for them then and both charge around the same amount, but from what I am hearing from people is that unless they are stunning blue, I'm probably not going to be able to move them for much more than $60 each, in spite of being "new" and "first time available". People are willing to pay you or other breeders hundreds of dollars for say, flames, albino flames, and a few other morphs but there's no way in hello that anyone is going to pay that for the new anery concinnus morph no matter how new it is, or how few are available. That's all I'm saying. Like I said, I am not undervaluing them. I price them where they will sell so it is not I that is determining their value, it's the market that determines that and the market tells me what they are willing to pay by buying, or not buying at the price set by me.

I started this thread (quite some time ago, look at the dates) just to better understand the market and how these values we put on certain animals are determined. I have a better understanding of it now and so I have no more issues. I got a lot of good feedback that helped me to better understand and that's good enough for me.

[Chondro788]

Great points Jeff. These snakes are the most work of any reptile I have bred, and I believe for those who work hard to produce the best looking babies, get them feeding well, and do their advertising, deserve the price they are asking, or close to it ;)

[ConcinusMan]

I'll get whatever people are willing to pay. Simple as that. Like you said, they are a lot of work and that is one of the reasons I want them sold hopefully by the end of the year, sooner is better. If I price them high and they don't move, what else would you suggest I do about it besides lower the price until they start moving?

I would be doing this anyway, even if I didn't get a dime for them. Heck I used to do this and release them. So, if I get as much as people are willing to pay, even if that turns out to not be much, then so beit. At least I'm getting something to help offset the costs associated with my hobby. That's more than I used to get, especially in the days before the internet, and before I joined the forum.

[Jeff B]

Richard I'm really not trying to come down on you, I am sincerely trying to help you, but you need to take some responsibility. The reason you're not selling your snakes for what you think they should go for, has nothing to do with me or any other breeder.
Perhaps you need to have more patience to let the demand develop, especially when you had the only supply like the anerys, but too late for that now because you sold adults. You now will have competition selling babies before you have even yourself produced babies and your competition may likely market them better.
Unfortunately it sounds like maybe the concinnus weren't real popular last year, but heck the market and what's hot or what’s not, can change on a dime I have found, I might go a couple months and not sell a single albino red-sided and then the next month sell 10 in a week. You hadn't even produced babies, tried to sell them, get an idea what people are willing to pay, and that does NOT mean what will they pay so you are sold out of babies in 3 days, but rather what are people willing to pay when it is convenient to them.
Every new potential sale should be viewed as a unique opportunity to gain a happy and satisfied customer, and the only good successful business transaction is when both the buyer and seller are happy with it.
You had a rare unique opportunity to bring a new morph into the hobby, but maybe you just needed to have a little more patience to see the project through to fruition. Will you will be able to have more patience after you produce babies this year and they don't all sell in a week?

[ConcinusMan]

This is going to be long but I would like to explain where I am now...


Perhaps you need to have more patience to let the demand develop, especially when you had the only supply like the anerys, but too late for that now because you sold adults. You now will have competition selling babies before you have even yourself produced babies and your competition may likely market them better.

Believe me, that's the first thing I thought of when I first got this morph. I think we talked about this before Jeff. I do not view this as, nor do I think it should be, a competition. If "they" market them better than I, than good! Let them market them, creating demand, and I will still benefit from that. I do not give a darn who gets credit for being "first". Nor do I want to be the only source and charge ridiculous prices. I think all this damn bickering you guys do is a bit ridiculous. If you guys would help each other and cooperate to create the new morphs, all of you could mutually benefit and bring them to fruition sooner. Also, I did not just indiscriminately sell off a bunch of adults just to make a few bucks now, due to impatience. I gave it much thought and careful consideration in every aspect. There is a method to my madness, believe that. I will attempt to explain. I only have room and time for so many snakes and breeding projects and that capacity is somewhat limited. I can really only handle so many litters in a season, and so many offspring (and grow-ups) in my current situation so having one or two other breeders working on this, in cooperation, not competition, is good. Also, I have a strong goal to diversify and get into breeding other morphs and species such as plains garters and checkereds which I know will sell very well locally at well above average online market value that most of you established breeders get. Being how I am cash poor, the quickest way to accomplish that and acquire the animals I require, is to use the only card I have - this anery morph. My goal is actually to use this to acquire animals I can't afford to pay for, so I can move away from breeding concinnus, or any sirtalis for the most part. I just can't go to local shows with them or any sirtalis, or sell them locally and high profile. pet stores here can't sell sirtalis either, but they can sell the species I have been getting in trade. I am actually looking to pass on the "blue anery morph torch" so to speak, but I also want to make sure I secure the animals I need for my long term goal,(non sirtalis breeding) in the process.

It looks like perhaps myself and shannon will be the only one's producing anery to anery litters. Don is the only other person that has the snakes required but it is unclear if he's going to produce any. I highly doubt that this will "ruin" my market by producing competition. There was, and still is, no need to "create demand" for these since the demand was strong from day one, and still is strong. As I said, I am not in competition with Don or Shannon. We are mutually benefiting. I'm getting the animals I need from them, to accomplish my long term goals and they got anery breeders from me in return. It's win-win. I have a local market new to snakes that you guys have had for decades. Also, I can get much more for them.


You had a rare unique opportunity to bring a new morph into the hobby, but maybe you just needed to have a little more patience to see the project through to fruition. Will you will be able to have more patience after you produce babies this year and they don't all sell in a week?

I completely understand and believe me, I recognized the "rare unique" opportunity and still do. I am using the opportunity in the best way I know how, to benefit my long term goals, to benefit a few other breeders, and the garter snake hobby as a whole. Like I said, there's a method to my madness and so far, it's going as planned. I have some darn fine animals(non sirtalis) to grow up and breed for my local market and what's the big deal if shannon or don also produce a litter of anery concinnus? We might all three just "co-op up" and dictate their value, (a.k.a. set the price). Did you ever think of that? Farmers do it, so can we. I think the small group of us can all benefit each other by cooperating whereas if we were in competition with each other, we both would lose out on opportunities. Sort of a "united we stand tall and accomplish much. Divided, we struggle in competition and accomplish very little"

[Jeff B]

I understand your method of madness more now, it's a different perspective than mine, but to each there own. You really can't have your cake and eat it with prices though, either you care or you don't. If you say you don't care about value and prices and the money ect, ect., thats fine, but don't complain about a lack of it either then, when you go to sell. You should be happy that your concinus weren't worth anything, that's what you really want anyway isn't it? You don't want to pay for any of the snakes that are higher dollar and you don't think they should cost that much right? And what "we" sell these morphs for is rediculous, right? Isn't what you really want, is for all morphs and all garters to sell for $10-20?

[ConcinusMan]

Isn't what you really want, is for all morphs and all garters to sell for $10-20?

No Jeff, that's not it at all. It's not exactly that simple. Try to understand when I started this thread I was coming from a point of frustration and was only trying to understand the market a bit better. In the previous year, normal concinnus were selling for $35 and going fast. I put my effort into producing them for the following year and nearly had to give them away and it wasn't just me. Even reptutable established breeders weren't selling them very well and had to drop prices. I was only trying to understand why, and I was frustrated as I said. I totally understand that some of the more expensive morphs out there are much more difficult to produce and take a much longer investment of time, money, and effort.

I also now understand that we are all going to take a different approach to the marketing aspect. You do what works for you. I just won't be buying flames, or any other morph as long as they remain as high priced as they are. Lord knows with my luck, if I did do that, by the time I raise them up and produce litters of them, they will darn near be worthless. That's just how it seems to work out for me.

Are you going to sit there and actually tell me that these anery concinnus would go for $250 or higher just because I keep them to myself?

Please.:rolleyes: I knew better than that, just by the fact that Scott wasn't even slightly interested in trading for them when I first got them, and neither were you.

When I say "ridiculous" price, I mean from my perspective. I just don't think that snow or albino red sideds are worth the prices you guys charge. It's insane to me. Not nearly as insane as ball python or retic morphs though.

[Jeff B]

Well I don't know Richard, they must be worth it at the time for a lot of people, because I produced over 50 snows and albino red-sideds and have sold every single one of them (minus the one albino female and snow male that I kept for myself) plus sold all the by-product hets, yet still I keep my day job, lol you should see my expences in a year, ouch, my rodent and bedding bills alone would probably cause you a heart attach Richard, plus since my Garter Snake Morph business is a legally registered business, I actually pay taxes as well. I think they were kinda cheap considering how beautiful they are and what great dispositions they have, and their number of morph gene copies, maybe I wasn't charging enough? lol

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

For the record... palpating the female that was courted prior to arrival here dictates that she is gravid. The female that recently locked up is obviously not showing yet... but it was such a good strong lock... with a nice plug that i am fairly confident that two clutches will be produced this year. No further interest from either male is a good sign. I am honestly hoping for smaller clutches, larger babies... and will hold back the majority, if not all of the babies. When they come out, I will know nothing of which ones are going to be standouts when they grow up. The only way to pick the standouts, will be to hang on to everyone. There are a few different "looks" to this morph... one is white and black, another is BLUE as a puget... in fact, looks so much like a puget I worry they will be labeled as such by amateurs, and my personal favorite, the female that recently locked up has an ever-so-faint hinting of color under the green glow... stunning. Jaw dropping... effortless beauty. As we all know... concinnus come out looking ridiculously dull compared to what they will become. The interest in anery's at hamburg at my table was overwhelming when I had them on display. I am not going to count my chickens before they hatch... but I have a feeling that I am not going to have any trouble selling any offspring that I may decide to part with... but if I get small enough clutches... I am holding them all back, as I won't be able to tell which babies are going to be BLUE, which will be WHITE, and which will be that "if you squint your eyes you can almost see some pink". I am not going to make the mistake of selling off so many offspring that these snakes become a dime a dozen in three year's time... oh no way... these snakes are too special for that! And I am not talking monetary value... I just mean that to me, they are special in a way I can't explain. And if it were not for Richard wanting to "pass the torch"... I would not have had the opportunity. Richard has made it clear, at least to me, that he does not intend to collect and sell the animals for a profit, and does not intend to send them every which way... because he knows very well that THAT alone will destroy any set "market value" (something I don't believe in anyway, as everyone has the right to sell at the price they want to.... but that's a whole 'nother argument)

Heck, I don't even SELL the majority of my babies. I trade them.

Totally (sort of off topic) on the "people skills" We all have our virtues and our faults... not everyone can be a people person... but there is maybe only one person that uses this forum that knows ME well enough to know that I myself...and this will surprise many... am NOT a people person. And that my people "skills" while good, are learned from managing in retail... they are rather superficial... merely a cordiality (I think that''s a word? haha) Long story short... I am secretly evil and slightly antisocial.... lol!!! When it gets down to it... I can't stand people in general, I generally find my own species to be going so far down the tubes that it's practically not worth having "people skills" anymore. I do everything in my power to avoid people in large doses because I am ashamed to be a member of the same species as most.

[ConcinusMan]

Richard has made it clear, at least to me, that he does not intend to collect and sell the animals for a profit, and does not intend to send them every which way... because he knows very well that THAT alone will destroy any set "market value"

With that said, let me make things clear right now because I know how things get spread around really fast in certain circles and I'd rather you hear from me now, than to find out later.

I have made some (males only) available to other people, and might just do it a time or two more. You might find out, you might not so let me explain now, before you do find out.

As you know, last year I did sell a male to someone but I certainly didn't make any profit to speak of. That single male, bound for Canada, well, you get the idea. Not even going to have any effect. It was intended to be a pet and the person had no grand plans for breeding. Besides that, like I said, Canada, and only a single male.:cool:

I also have another male right now that is completely useless. I mean, this guy isn't the slightest bit interested in sex at all, no matter how attractive a female may be to most other males. He just isn't interested in breeding at all. I've had him for about a year, he's well adapted to captivity and tamed, treated and cleaned for parasites, etc., so it seems a shame to just release him and/or let that year go to waste but I really don't need him any more. I need the room. I really do believe it takes two viable anery's to have any hopes of reproducing them any time soon or perhaps at all.

Well that's perfect because I found him a buyer who is dead set on not ever breeding reptiles again. I found this out before I even offered him this snake. He just thinks they look nice and just wants one male. Fine with me. Again, I won't make anything. I will just get back some of what he cost me in care, meds, fecal screen, etc. over the past year. This shouldn't undermine anything or cause them to be "a dime a dozen" in a year or two, since it's only a male, and won't breed anyway.:cool:

I just want to be clear that although you guys aren't the only ones that have got these, I have sold a few to other low profile non breeder people who just want pets, and you two are the only ones besides myself that have breedable females and it will stay that way. Those are rather hard to come by in the first place.:cool: Last trip I made out there, I saw only two anery females out of a lot of snakes. They were in such bad shape, I doubt they will even survive the summer, let alone the stress of captivity.

Here's one of the two anery females I saw. You can see what I mean about the shape she's in. Anyway, it's clear to me that this place cannot spare any more anery females. There's plenty of normal, or near normal ones though. Poor girl couldn't even slither away fast enough to outrun a slug.:( With a little luck, we have enough already to get them established in captivity and I won't need to collect anymore ever again.
http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/1325/dsc00136large.jpg

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I think what I meant was that, you do not intend to rape this population to your benefit/personal gain. I do not mind if you send snakes to other people.. I do not mind one bit. I sure as hell am not going to tell you what to do! I know you and you won't go so far as to collect 50 of them and sell them to every tom **** and harry that wants them! There are people that would... and I am glad they are not the ones to have found such a nice population.

[ConcinusMan]

You are right. I wouldn't do that. I really have a great time going out there and spending a few hours observing them in the wild. I wouldn't want to ruin that for temporary financial gain. I certainly don't need to get a rep for being someone who sells large numbers of unhealthy WC snakes either. Lord knows I don't need that. The only ones I have let go have spent plenty of time in captivity and proven themselves to be healthy and well adapted.

There are people who have known about these for decades and have been coming out here to enjoy watching them too. Since we haven't been seeing these in the market place, it's pretty clear that the "rapers" haven't been out here collecting and that's good.

[RicMartin]

I agree with Shannon that humans are way overrated; the opposite of garters.

I have no experience with the market, other than as a buyer, but maybe most people are not shopping that heavily these days due to the economy being tanked?

I know I'm not. Otherwise I'd be looking at some groovy flame paradoxes, overpriced or not. I don't plan to ever own every type of garter, & the local ones here (California) are legally out of the question for me, so my moto is simple:

"Radixes are forever, & paradoxes will eventually come home to Cali"

For now, I rather spend my scarce money on our snakes than on toxic Chinese gadget imports. Crazy, ain't it?

[ConcinusMan]

... the local ones here (California) are legally out of the question for me...

Not necessarily. It's not at all against state law for you to collect and keep several native garter snake species (there is of course, a bag limit). You just can't breed, buy, sell, or import them from elsewhere. The only exception to that is certain counties or cities may prohibit it (collecting and keeping native garter snakes) even though state law allows it. For example, San Diego county does not allow keeping or collecting native reptiles at all.

I asked them directly, asked the right questions, and got the correct and updated info on that just recently: Reptile Regulations by State - Caresheets (http://www.thamnophis.com/caresheets/index.php?title=Reptile_Regulations_by_State#CALIF ORNIA)

[RedSidedSPR]

I was shocked by the price of an albino scott has. $500. Plus shipping. Ouch. But I guess it's different when it's albino? Since they're "special?"

[RedSidedSPR]

I just saw a lavender albino python for $45,000 friggin' dollars.:eek: I know that's not a garter, but WOW!!

[ConcinusMan]

I was shocked by the price of an albino scott has. $500. Plus shipping. Ouch. But I guess it's different when it's albino? Since they're "special?"


No, they are somehow magically worth more because of where they come from. Before everyone gets upset, I'm only joking. Kind of.

I don't really even know what $500 snake you're talking about.

[Stefan-A]

Supply and demand. That's still what determines the price.

[ConcinusMan]

You would think so, but I've seen prices not follow that rule before. Do you think for one minute if Scott dropped the price of say, iowa albinos to $50 regardless of supply, that everyone wouldn't do so as well? Personally, I'm struggling with trying to figure out why they are still "up there" in price but then I go to his website and there's my answer.

Now don't go all mad on me and think I'm bashing Scott, I'm not dangit.

[RedSidedSPR]

I don't really even know what $500 snake you're talking about.

Here's a couple of $400-500+ (i get the feeling you don't believe me...;))
Scott Felzer's Garter Snakes, specializing in aberrant garters (http://www.albinogartersnake.com/price_albino_flame_easterns.html)
Scott Felzer's Garter Snakes, specializing in aberrant garters (http://www.albinogartersnake.com/price_erythristic_albino.html)
Scott Felzer's Garter Snakes, specializing in aberrant garters (http://www.albinogartersnake.com/price_LEUCISTIC.html)

And here's the $45,000 ball python, just for the heck of it.
Most Expensive Snakes (http://most-expensive.net/snakes)

[RicMartin]

The way to make them more affordable is to buy them (if you care enough about the project) and produce more of them.
As long as they're rare they will remain expensive. As long as they are expensive most people won't have them, and they'll remain rare.

I have no interest in "investment pythons", but compared to the trash bankers are peddling these days, those guys may (just almost may) not be all that crazy. Breeding numbers of any animals do compound geometrically (& devaluate likewise, so it's a wax on, wax off, silly wabbit thing, IMHO)
If four or five of us started breeding paradox garters we'd see them soon come down to around $100 which I think is a good price for a common cb snake of any kind. I've never felt I was overpaying for a garter or milk morph, it takes work to find them & breed them, I feel work should be compensated.

[ConcinusMan]

Here's a couple of $400-500+ (i get the feeling you don't believe me...;))
Scott Felzer's Garter Snakes, specializing in aberrant garters (http://www.albinogartersnake.com/price_albino_flame_easterns.html)
Scott Felzer's Garter Snakes, specializing in aberrant garters (http://www.albinogartersnake.com/price_erythristic_albino.html)
Scott Felzer's Garter Snakes, specializing in aberrant garters (http://www.albinogartersnake.com/price_LEUCISTIC.html)

And here's the $45,000 ball python, just for the heck of it.
Most Expensive Snakes (http://most-expensive.net/snakes)

Oh, I believed you, I just didn't know what albinos you were talking about. And $45,000 for a ball python isn't even close to high end. I've seen some for $250,000 before. Don't even get me started on retics.

The albinos that Scott is charging those prices for, aren't all that easy to produce. It's not just as simple as producing more. Erythristic albinos for example are combo morphs. You can breed two snakes with the right genes, but to get them to come together just right in any one snake in the litter, the odds are very slim. And as far as albino flames go, it's a similar situation. Even when you do beat the odds and get an albino flame, their color always varies. To get very intense colored flames that are also albino... again, low odds even if you breed the right snakes, very few will be "high end". It's not like other albinos such as iowas or nebraskas. Your litter either has them, or it doesn't, and they are easy to produce. Not so with the expensive albinos you listed there.

[snakeman]

Oh, I believed you, I just didn't know what albinos you were talking about. And $45,000 for a ball python isn't even close to high end. I've seen some for $250,000 before. Don't even get me started on retics.

The albinos that Scott is charging those prices for, aren't all that easy to produce. It's not just as simple as producing more. Erythristic albinos for example are combo morphs. You can breed two snakes with the right genes, but to get them to come together just right in any one snake in the litter, the odds are very slim. And as far as albino flames go, it's a similar situation. Even when you do beat the odds and get an albino flame, their color always varies. To get very intense colored flames that are also albino... again, low odds even if you breed the right snakes, very few will be "high end". It's not like other albinos such as iowas or nebraskas. Your litter either has them, or it doesn't, and they are easy to produce. Not so with the expensive albinos you listed there.
Out of about 50 babies I got I got 5 really nice albino flames.Yes, They are hard to produce.Albino erythristics are even harder.

[RedSidedSPR]

Oh, I believed you, I just didn't know what albinos you were talking about. And $45,000 for a ball python isn't even close to high end. I've seen some for $250,000 before. Don't even get me started on retics.

:eek:$250,000?!? Who would pay that much? You could buy a freaking Ferrari with that!! Not to mention it's probably hardly any different from the normal ball python. jeez.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Oh, I believed you, I just didn't know what albinos you were talking about. And $45,000 for a ball python isn't even close to high end. I've seen some for $250,000 before. Don't even get me started on retics.

having many personal friends that are off the deep end into the python morphs... $45,000 is definitely high end! Not too many pythons actually sell cash value for that you know. The majority of snakes that are priced that high, are traded for other extremely rare and valuable morphs or expensive items such as a whole new room full of caging... a car... etc! A lot of morph people use their own self-proved out rare morphs to gain leverage to get other things they don't have or can't afford to outright buy. they don't usually start selling for actual outright cash until they hit like, $7k. There are ALWAYS exceptions... and I personally watched a guy lay out $12k in CASH on a table for a snake at a show... but a lot of outrageously priced snakes are not actually exchanged for real money.... and if they are, generally, it's a payment plan or a partial cash partial trade.

[RedSidedSPR]

I kinda figured that. But really I don't think they're worth that much.

[ConcinusMan]

Definitely not.

[Sonya610]

I'll get whatever people are willing to pay. Simple as that. Like you said, they are a lot of work and that is one of the reasons I want them sold hopefully by the end of the year, sooner is better. If I price them high and they don't move, what else would you suggest I do about it besides lower the price until they start moving?

I am new, and especially new to Garter Snakes so I think I may offer a different perspective with regard to marketing.

For the last couple of weeks I have been window shopping for a new display snake. I looked into various types, and want something high color and very outgoing hence the decision to go with a Garter.

In my internet travels I found VERY VERY few websites offering Garters for sale with photos (outside of the big herp dealers that have one generic photo up to represent their stock). I am likely NOT the only one that had this problem. A website with great key words that will show up on search with various attractive photos advertising available animals OR pictures of the parents advertising upcoming babies would be a big plus for you.

I have had a Ball Python for three years and let me tell you if you search for BP's online the sites are great, lots of pictures, easy to find, and very very appealing for potential buyers that show the actual animal for sale. There is a market beyond the Garter fans that hang out on these forums, many herp people may not be all that familiar with Garters or part of this inner circle but WILL search and shop online for an attractive animal. The people that have a variety of reptiles and are not interested in breeding the Garter will care more about visual appeal and less about "market value".

Make sure to have lots of clear photos and include various names so if they see something they like and google it your animals come up.

[infernalis]

In my internet travels I found VERY VERY few websites offering Garters for sale with photos (outside of the big herp dealers that have one generic photo up to represent their stock). I am likely NOT the only one that had this problem. A website with great key words that will show up on search with various attractive photos advertising available animals OR pictures of the parents advertising upcoming babies would be a big plus for you.

Working on ways to change that ;)

What keywords come to mind for you?

[Sonya610]

Working on ways to change that ;)

What keywords come to mind for you?

The obvious terms such as "buy garter snake online, garter snake breeder, etc..." along with latin names and also common colors "albino, fire, flame, etc..." You can also throw in terms like "aboreal" and "best display snake" if you want, doesn't have to be accurate only limitation is using copyrighted names of other companies or breeders. One easy trick is to do quick google searches and then look at the page source code for non-paid websites that come up first. Also use the name garter in your file folders so all the links have that term in them (ranks higher). The top page coming up for "buy garter snakes online" in google doesn't even use garter in the meta tags but it has several links onthe page with the name garter in them.

Make the site user friendly for regular people by posting pictures of the snakes NEXT to the listings and prices, not on a separate gallery page! Not everyone is a breeder nor an expert! The biggest frustration I had when searching online for garters is the lack of pictures, I do not know what the various descriptions mean and without pictures it is frustrating. I see an ad for an animal without a photo and try to google the name and no photos come up. Example from Scott's page, I have no frickin idea what these terms mean! At the very least have "generic" photos that represent the various colors.

There are people seeking pets that would easily spend $100 or even $200 for a nice looking animal -- I wonder if the mindset is only breeders or collectors would buy therefore don't dumb down the site for pet buyers.


100% Het flame albinos (normal looking) $100
Flames 66% Het albino flame $175 - $225
50% Piebald hets - Inquire
Albino flame/erythristic combined ?
Flames $100 - $150
Leucistics - (From Paradox bloodline) $450
Flames 66% Het leucistic $375 - $425 pair
66% Het leucistic $250 pair

[Jeff B]

hmmmm, good tips there. I thought my site is very picture rich with lots of pictures of morph examples and discriptions, and that it google queries fairly well, but of course there is always room for improvement. Thanks for the input.

[Sonya610]

Working on ways to change that ;)

What keywords come to mind for you?

You have a very nice image gallery on your site. Add "alt" tags to all your images with the FULL name of the snake so that name displays when the mouse moves over hte image and also registers on search engines.

Put your mouse over the Thamnophis image at the top of this page to see what I mean, the name "Garter Snake Forum" appears. Right now your images do not have alt tags to name them so the file name shows (albsnake.jpg). Add alt="Albino Red Sided Garter" in the img tag after the albsnake.jpg file name and that name will display on rollover plus be picked up by search engines. Actually looking at your site again the html editor you used is using the file name as the "title" by default so put the name of the animal in the quotes after the title tag.

It's an easy way to add the searchable terms to your site and label your photos without having to do a lot of redesign work.

[ConcinusMan]

That's rather strange. I definitely don't experience a shortage of photos when I search online. Maybe it comes down to the terms you are searching for. I have no problem at all getting my own photos and posts to show up in a google search.

I see what you're saying about not "dumbing it down" and the answer to that is simple. It looks like you copied that from Scott Felzer's website and I must say that his garter snakes sell out fast and all of his customers know what that stuff means so there's no need to "dummy it down" to reach more people since they all sell out anyway, sometimes before they are even born. Those details written there (percentages, "het", etc.) are very important to those who are paying that much for garter snakes. The rest of those words are morph names. And yes, most of the buyers are breeders. If you're not planning on breeding there's really no point in paying extra money for a 100% het, or a little less for a 66% het, and no point in even buying any kind of "het" (A normal looking snake carrying genes for say, albino for example) when you could just buy a normal a lot cheaper. So if you're not breeding, that stuff is meaningless to you anyway. If you are breeding, you know what it means already.

[mb90078]

I hear where this guy is coming from. The major garter breeder sites are very good, and information based, with pictures supplementing. But, I don't think it would be a bad idea for someone to try the more basic, almost classified-type approach, where you show a garter, show a price, show the species.

Of course at the volume that these breeders sell at it would be a huge task, but I could see how that would be more useful for a beginner to the hobby (and likewise unnecessary for a veteran).

[ConcinusMan]

I wonder if the mindset is only breeders or collectors would buy therefore don't dumb down the site for pet buyers.


100% Het flame albinos (normal looking) $100
Flames 66% Het albino flame $175 - $225
50% Piebald hets - Inquire
Albino flame/erythristic combined ?
Flames $100 - $150
Leucistics - (From Paradox bloodline) $450
Flames 66% Het leucistic $375 - $425 pair
66% Het leucistic $250 pair



Let me point out that you are looking at a price list for eastern garter snake (T. sirtalis sirtalis) morphs there. This is a list for people who know what they are looking for, know what the percentages mean, and just need to see the prices for this year's offspring. It is not intended to answer any questions or to educate anyone about the morphs. However...

The very same website (or any google search) will also show you what a "flame" eastern is. Same goes for Albino flame, erythristic, leucistic, etc.

I have always found it very easy to look at this list and if I don't know what a certain morph is, I then go to the gallery on the very same website, and see pics of what a certain morph looks like. I also know that a "het albino" is a normal looking snake that carries albino genes. The percentages are the odds that a het carries a certain gene.

It just seems to me that if you don't know what these things mean, or what certain morphs look like, then you should do the research. The information you seem to be missing is right in front of you, and on that same website. It really doesn't take much effort on your part to find out what this stuff means so that you will understand the list just fine. If someone is selling dozens of "spider ball pythons" for example and I don't know what that means, I'm just going to have to research that. I don't expect the seller to do that for me.


But, I don't think it would be a bad idea for someone to try the more basic, almost classified-type approach, where you show a garter, show a price, show the species.

Of course at the volume that these breeders sell at it would be a huge task, but I could see how that would be more useful for a beginner to the hobby (and likewise unnecessary for a veteran).

Not sure what you're getting at there. Pretty much everybody here already does that.:cool: Are you suggesting that a breeder take pictures and post an ad for each snake out dozens, or hundreds born? That's not going to happen for obvious reasons. I always do show pics of the actual snake before I ship but I"m certainly not about to do each individual one and place ads for them if I have dozens of them. Its not practical.

I'm just having a hard time trying to picture what exactly it is that you're suggesting should be changed.

[Sonya610]

I'm just having a hard time trying to picture what exactly it is that you're suggesting should be changed.

This thread started off with you saying you were trying to understand the market, and you didn't want to sell to whole salers at $5-$10 an animal.

Merely pointing out there IS a market out there and a good website could bring in pet buyers. I do research regarding husbandry so I know how to care for the animal and what to expect, but beyond that I do not want to research genetics or spend hours googling photos and then more hours trying to find a specific morph etc... I am quite sure I am not the only person like this.

[infernalis]

I understand fully, those of us who know what to look for will use certain keywords that a rookie may never have heard of before...

My numerous galleries are all eye candy and no info..

[ConcinusMan]

This thread started off with you saying you were trying to understand the market, and you didn't want to sell to whole salers at $5-$10 an animal.

Merely pointing out there IS a market out there and a good website could bring in pet buyers. I do research regarding husbandry so I know how to care for the animal and what to expect, but beyond that I do not want to research genetics or spend hours googling photos and then more hours trying to find a specific morph etc... I am quite sure I am not the only person like this.

I started this thread in December of 2010. A lot about my understanding of the market has changed since then. You say "I do not want to research genetics or spend hours googling photos and then more hours trying to find a specific morph etc... I am quite sure I am not the only person like this"

I totally understand where you're coming from but let me ask you this. If you suddenly decided to spend $200,000 on a car, would you not do any research before you decide what car to purchase in your price range? It really isn't the car dealers business to make sure you know what you're buying, especially when he sells out all of his stock every year, to people who already do know what they are buying.:cool:

If you take a look at the photographic library on this website, and click on specific species, you will often find photos of different morphs(different forms or variations) of that species. For example, plains garter snake:
Photographic Library - Caresheets (http://www.thamnophis.com/caresheets/index.php?title=Photographic_Library#Thamnophis_ra dix_.28Plains_Garter_Snake.29)

Oregon Red Spotted: Photographic Library - Caresheets (http://www.thamnophis.com/caresheets/index.php?title=Photographic_Library#T._s._concinn us_.28Red-spotted_garter_snake.29)

If there is any place to come and ask questions and to do research before you purchase, you've come to the right place. Right here.

[Millinex]

Snake pricing has always been one of those things that isn't overly easy to understand. First of all, garters while in their many many color forms, have not taken off to the mainstream yet, and I hate to break hearts, they just aren't as popular as many other commercially offered snakes. That isn't to downlplay them at all, but it does a tremendous amount towards what they are worth, even morphs.

Yes, your snake is much prettier than the other, however, to the buyer, he isn't buying for beauty. Who knows why they purchased these snakes, maybe for the sake of having something no one else has, childhood memories, some special plans that maybe garters will take off, and he'll be able to offer something no one else can. Who knows why these individuals where sold for $300, there are so many reasons that you'd have to ask the buyer directly. Give me a handful of garters, give me pretty colors, morphs, you name it, want to know which ones will sell first? You guessed it, the normals. For most it really doesn't make sense, why would someone choose a normal over a beautiful animal someone worked hard for? Simple, they want the snake they had growing up, either for them, a kid, and hell if it doesn't work out release it, they can't do that with a morph as readily because it's more "exotic" to them. Every year I go through a ton of t. e. vagarans normals, some up to $40 each, for dull brown snakes with yellow stripes, when my friend can hardly sell normal corns for $15.

I've been watching ball pythons a lot lately, and their sales, even though frankly I hate ball pythons.. I've bought and sold a few of them lately, guess who all my buyers have been so far? Girls. How does this apply? For the most part, a large majority of women I have met are terrified of snakes, moreso than men, and for a lot of guys I know, the wife/girlfriend etc is too terrified to let them have a snake. I'm not trying to sound sexist, but part of the reason you see a ball python worth 10k is the fact you can breed it and get babies worth 1k+ each, all sorts of pretty colors. Girls see the fat colorful snake, and something about them gets them over the fear. Us guys take our chance to get a snake, we please them with the pretty color, and we still get our snake.

Where do garters play into this? What snake did they probably grow up killing? Garters. Which snakes did mom scream for dad as a kid? Garters. Which snake is probably the most persecuted snake in America? Garters. Which snake did most little boys grow up catching and scaring mom with? Garters. When I look at my customers, I can for sure say that every single garter I sold last year, was too a male.

If you want to win over people, and start seeing colorful morphs really take off and gain a ton of value, you need to win over the women. They need more promotion and awareness of the species, and more large calm colorful garters need to be present at reptile expos and whatnot, get them hooked, and you could very easily see that blue garter be worth over a grand.

-Mike

[infernalis]

funny thing is, I would give $300 for the right garter snake, no problem...

If you gave me $300 I may just take your BP...

Nothing like a boring snake that lives in it's hide.

Yep, shell out that cash for a shoe box (hide) that eats, drinks and defecates.

[Millinex]

funny thing is, I would give $300 for the right garter snake, no problem...

If you gave me $300 I may just take your BP...

Nothing like a boring snake that lives in it's hide.

Yep, shell out that cash for a shoe box (hide) that eats, drinks and defecates.
I never understood it either, but my girlfriend loves her ball python to death, despite the fact he literally sits in one place 23 hours of the day, 1 hour at the most if she brings him out, and she invested over a grand into professional display cages for them..

[Sonya610]

I totally understand where you're coming from but let me ask you this. If you suddenly decided to spend $200,000 on a car, would you not do any research before you decide what car to purchase in your price range? It really isn't the car dealers business to make sure you know what you're buying, especially when he sells out all of his stock every year, to people who already do know what they are buying.:cool:

I spent plenty of timing look up info about garter snake temperament habits, diet, humidity requirements, lighting, etc... The important stuff!

Then the second phase was looking for specific types. I am very fond of the erythristic flames, easy to say, not so easy to find. Sure I have come across a couple of sites that say they have upcoming babies, maybe, but then because I am an unknown pet owner and not a breeder it becomes very vague (i.e. call me in june or so after they are born). Uh huh...we know that means "I don't want to mess with a pet buyer wanting ONE animal so call me in 2 months and I will tell you I have sold out because I am putting all the best animals on hold for the regular breeders/customers". LOL.


Nothing like a boring snake that lives in it's hide. Yep, shell out that cash for a shoe box (hide) that eats, drinks and defecates.

LOL yeah I have a BP. I have always found snakes to be the most beautiful of reptiles and had a garter snake as a kid. I think one reason women like the ball pythons is because they seem well...cuddly and not squirmy. They are quite lovely to hold but they are reclusive picky eaters that often don't like being held even though they tolerate it, they hide in a box 24/7. Mine hides CONSTANTLY and was on F/T but now demands live feeder rats (which I have to house here due to the driving distance).

The live food thing is really very very difficult for me, I have a couple of pet rats and I feel really awful feeding live rat babies; there is no reward for me in this situation. I only see my BP once a week for 1 minute when she comes out to kill a baby rat and I don't want to watch that. It sickens me. Heck it isn't even one minute, I drop the well fed baby rat in the cage and then shut the cage and cover it with a dark sheet so she has her "privacy" then run out onto the porch for a smoke so I don't have to hear the baby rat scream (no risk for the snake, if she doesn't eat in 15 minutes I pull the rat for next time). It is turning into a lose/lose situation and I may rehome her.

[Jeff B]

Thanks for the tips Sonya, I will look into your suggested improvements.

[Jeff B]

But, I don't think it would be a bad idea for someone to try the more basic, almost classified-type approach, where you show a garter, show a price, show the specimens.

I have actually been toying with the idea of doing that this spring with babies, but when you are looking at several hundred that is an enormous amount of work. What I have done in the past is sell from postings for a group of like animals from a representational photo for the first few months, then after they are whittled down to a reasonable number I will start selling individuals thoughout the rest of the year.
Also to be honest I am better at keeping up with classified ads. Managing several hundred classified ads with photos on my website and keeping updated with what sells would be very cumbersome and not sure it is worth the time investment for me quite frankly.

[ConcinusMan]

"I don't want to mess with a pet buyer wanting ONE animal so call me in 2 months and I will tell you I have sold out because I am putting all the best animals on hold for the regular breeders/customers". LOL.

Now that is what I was trying to tell you. There really isn't any need at all for the sellers to make it easy for a "newbie" to understand the list and make it easy for pet buyers since all these snakes sell out fast just the way things are now. First off, an erythristic flame is a combo morph. Even if you breed the right snakes together, the odds are against producing an erythristic flame.

Second, these breeders take prepaid reservations before the animals are even born and that is why you are out of luck. Your best (and probably only) shot is to pay as soon as he starts taking reservations, and cross your fingers that some erythristic flames are produced. I can almost guarantee that there are already more buyers who have already paid, than the number of snakes that will be produced. So, some of these people who have prepaid, still won't be getting the snake they wanted because there just isn't enough to go around.

If you're dead set on getting this particular morph, it doesn't really matter if you're a breeder or not. You're going to have a heck of a time getting one and the only way you're going to have a chance is to prepay for snakes that aren't even born yet.

[Sonya610]

If you're dead set on getting this particular morph, it doesn't really matter if you're a breeder or not. You're going to have a heck of a time getting one and the only way you're going to have a chance is to prepay for snakes that aren't even born yet.

Yeah just made an offer to do just that. May pan out...may not. I realize I am demanding, but well...I am willing to pay a sensible price ahead of time. We all have our quirks ConcinussMan...you should realize that. :)