Yet another project

[Stefan-A]

That's right. I've had my current enclosure for less than a year and I already feel like making a better one. Or rather a complete "modular" system. The current one is otherwise good, but isn't really practical to stack, especially not if I ever need a third terrarium. I hope to make 2 initially, later possibly a third terrarium, all according to the same basic design and of the same width and depth. The depth would be 50cm and the width is still open, but I was thinking of something like 100-120cm. The most practical height, according to my own estimate, would be around 50-60cm.

Opinions or suggestions? Can't even decide between sliding glass doors and swinging plastic ones right now, not to mention which way they should swing. But I don't want to make it any more complicated than is absolutely necessary and I'm just testing a few ideas at the moment.

This is the general idea:
- Very simple design
- Separate modules that can be stacked in any order according to my current needs.
- Big enough for a garter couple and a corn snake respectively.
- Heated by lamps.
- Light from 16mm T5 tubes

Made a couple of quick models in Oxygen. Measurements of these ones from top to bottom: 100x60x50, 100x50x50, 100x50x50 (considering dividing it into two 50x50x50)

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/terrawide1.jpg


http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/terrainside1.jpg

[adamanteus]

Pretty much like mine Stefan, only separate, rather than a set of three.

[Stefan-A]

Yeah, about the same width and depth. Didn't notice if you ever mentioned the height or the volume of the individual enclosures in your project, though. :)

[adamanteus]

The set is 6 foot, so each viv is around 2 foot high.

[Stefan-A]

So each is around 325 litres? I was aiming for one 300-360 and at least one 250-300.

[adamanteus]

I have no idea of the volume Stefan! I never thought about it!

[Stefan-A]

Ok. :D

But about the sizes, are they in your opinion big enough for the mentioned species? I know people keep them in much smaller enclosures than that, but I'm not really a fan of the "absolute minimum" philosophy.

[adamanteus]

I'm not really a fan of the "absolute minimum" philosophy.

I agree, I always give as much room as possible. I know many people keep Garters in much smaller spaces, and have no problem, but that isn't really my style. I think the sizes you quote are generous, by many people's standards.

[Thamnophis]

100 x 50 x 50 cm is large enough for gartersnakes and most ratsnakes.

[Cazador]

Just a thought for your consideration:

If the top enclosure was just a little bit taller, you could drill small holes through the walls through which to insert dowell rods to support a removable floor. Then if desired, you could divide that top enclosure into two separate enclosures. That would probably mean using a heat mat to heat the bottom portion, and you'd need to add vents to the lower section. The (plexi)glass front would have to slide sideways or fold downward, though.

Rick

[Stefan-A]

Getting more complicated than necessary. This is supposed to be designed according to the KISS principle. ;)

If I go for swinging doors, and I might for at least one of the modules, they're going to have to swing to the sides.

But if I make them all 55cm high, I can fit them in the back seat of my car. :D Always a plus.

[Stefan-A]

110*55*50 seems to be the most practical compromise at the moment. Takes as much floor space as the one that already houses my garters and I wouldn't need a van to move them.

I wonder, what would a terrarium system look like if it was built to military standards? :D

[drache]

it might not look that great, but it sure would be heavy

[RedSided]

Is that operation flashpoint in the pics or armed assault? :p

Great games!

[Stefan-A]

Rhea, I expect it to be quite heavy, 17 kilos of wood (not including glass doors), but then again, I'm not that small either. :) Moving them won't be a problem. Might drill holes for detatchable carrying handles if I feel it's necessary.

RedSided
Indeed it is Flashpoint (with dxdll installed). :D Oxygen is excellent for making simple models, even if it is quite limited compared to a real CAD program.

[drache]

Rhea, I expect it to be quite heavy, 17 kilos of wood (not including glass doors), but then again, I'm not that small either. :) Moving them won't be a problem. Might drill holes for detatchable carrying handles if I feel it's necessary.


yours will be much better looking than anything the military comes up with
without the doors it's not prohibitively heavy, either

[adamanteus]

So Stefan, when will you start building these?

[Cazador]

yours will be much better looking than anything the military comes up with

It'll probably be several hundred thousand dollars cheaper, too :rolleyes:.

Rick

[drache]

It'll probably be several hundred thousand dollars cheaper, too :rolleyes:.

Rick

you bet
and that's a conservative estimate

[Stefan-A]

So Stefan, when will you start building these?
I have no idea. Might have all the necessary parts in a couple of weeks.

Then it's going to be a year or so before I can get rid of the old ones. ;)

[suzoo]

Don't forget to send me mine! lol

[Stefan-A]

Changed the measurements a bit, it's going to be 115cm wide. I just remembered that I have a couple of glass doors left from my original home made terrarium that would fit nicely if I just widened the design by 5cm.

Any opinions on using melamine board as a building material?

[Cazador]

Much heavier than you're used to. Use 13mm thickness or thinner to reduce the weight.
It swells terribly if wet, so seal the seams well.
Easy to work with.
Fairly expensive.
Looks nice.

[Stefan-A]

Let's forget melamine then. :)

[adamanteus]

I always use Melamine now. If you make sure it's well sealed it's fine, if you fail to seal it properly..... disaster!

I always seal the cut surfaces (ends) with silicone before beginning assembly, then seal the seams once assembly is complete. It works fine for me.

[Stefan-A]

The only reason why I even considered it, was because it would reduce the time needed to finish the project. It takes a couple of hours to put the thing together, but after that the wood needs to be treated and it will give off fumes for a few weeks.

[Cazador]

Just to be clear, I really like melamine. Once the edges/seams are properly sealed, it resists water very well. You only run into problems if you don't seal cut edges.

[Stefan-A]

I'm going to start looking at the prices tomorrow, let's see how expensive it really is. No plywood this time, either. ;)

[adamanteus]

It's not so expensive here Stefan. I think the Melamine for my new triple stack cost about £45-

[Stefan-A]

I decided on what I think translates as glued laminated timber instead of melamine. I'll get the parts on monday, all with the correct dimensions, so all I really have to do is attach the parts to each other and treat the wood.

Rule #231 of How To Save The Planet: "Buy services instead of tools." ;)

[Cazador]

Stefan,
All joking aside, as a student of sustainable development, I bet there's a lot you could teach us about "saving the planet" and/or minimizing our impact. Hmmm, how to properly fit that into a garter snake forum? Sorry, a bit off topic about your new enclosure.

I am curious, though, how that "glued laminated timber" looks.

[Stefan-A]

Stefan,
All joking aside, as a student of sustainable development, I bet there's a lot you could teach us about "saving the planet" and/or minimizing our impact. Hmmm, how to properly fit that into a garter snake forum? Sorry, a bit off topic about your new enclosure.

I am curious, though, how that "glued laminated timber" looks.
Well, it's just strips of wood glued together to form solid wood boards. :) The thickness off the material is 18mm. Very easy to work with and doesn't warp like plywood does.

Initially, I'm just going to build one terrarium, even though I ordered parts for two. It's going to have sliding glass doors, but I'm thinking about using swinging doors on the second one, just in case I need that feature.




Off topic, will not continue discussing it here:
I've only studied sustainable development for one year and I'm not entirely convinced anymore that we can "save the planet". When it comes to global warming, it seems that we don't really know what's causing it.
The school's policy is to teach what the IPCC report says, but then again, it has been severely criticized for a lot of reasons. One side says that some statements have been omitted due to pressure from certain governments and the corporate world, and the other side of the debate says that scientific findings directly contradicting the theory of anthropogenic global warming have been omitted. Best I can tell, both sides are correct, but the latter is in my opinion a much bigger problem. In the end, if there is anything we can do, depends on whether or not CO2 really acts the way we assume and whether or not our CO2 emissions really are signficant.

Just to be clear, the education doesn't revolve around that issue. Most of it has been ecology, evolutionary biology and species identification. Had a presentation on wednesday, the theme was "Any animal species or group of species". I chose a genus, guess which one. ;)

[Cazador]

I was curious about the look of the composite or laminate wood just because it comes in so many different varieties. Some is quite beautiful. Will you stain it?


Off topic:
You're right that if people don't agree on the causes of global warming, it's certainly not going to be resolved by a debate on this forum, but I'm shocked to hear what you're being taught about the causes of global warming. It's a big topic of research here in Alaska. If you're interested, I could PM evidence to you that uses Carbon-14 ratios to show that the increases are due to the burning of fossil fuels. In short, the amount of C-14 is falling in the upper atmosphere. Since the half-life of C-14 is 5,730 years, it takes a carbon source that has been locked away for a very long time (millions of years/fossil fuels) to dilute the atmospheric concentration like we're seeing. This is called the "Suess effect."

Rick

[Stefan-A]

I'm not going to stain it, just lacquer it. There's a type usually used for boats that's intended to last in wet environments and it's the same I've been using this far.


The school has decided to stay to the mainstream theory, as one of our teachers pointed out, so I don't really know what shocks you. I am familiar with the Suess effect and carbon levels are measurable, but the real issue is the significance of CO2. :)

[Cazador]

I'm eager to see the finished product. I bet it's going to look great. It'll just be a bit heavier than you've gotten used to moving around.

If I have anything negative to say about the scientific "establishment" it is that scientists are VERY cautious and deliberate and it usually takes a VERY long time with much, much, much repetition before establishing or changing a major theory. On such large issues, an elephant practically has to be sitting on your couch before the world agrees that something's amiss. I know that's part of what gives science its credibility, but on such an important issue, I think it's prudent to look at the preponderance of evidence and make decisions in a more timely manner. The CO2 issue isn't just about the levels of CO2... It's about the type of carbon isotope that comprises the CO2. Since the ratios are changing, and more of the stable type (C-12) is appearing in the atmosphere, it shows that fossil fuels (millions of years old) are the source that are diluting our atmospheric composition. It's not just that CO2 levels are rising, but the carbonic composition is changing as a result of the burning of fossil fuels. I tend to look very skeptically at the reports that "industry scientists" produce and often find glaring holes in them, as a result. Their shortcomings, of course, aren't what make the headlines because one has to understand the process in order to interpret the results.

Rick

[Stefan-A]

I'm eager to see the finished product. I bet it's going to look great. It'll just be a bit heavier than you've gotten used to moving around.
Not really, had a 180 liter glass (just 4mm thick) terrarium once, that weighed as much as this one will. That one was a pain in the arse to move, just because of the thickness and the weight of the material. :) This one will be much easier to handle. I just started thinking, that I migt not be able to get it into my car after all, the total height will be almost 59cm and I remember that my modified terrarium wouldn't fit as 60cm high. :D Fortunately, the top won't be permanently attached, which will enable me to reduce its height to a mere 57cm. :D Can't stop laughing at how this simple project got turned into an "adventure" again. Running out of smilies here.


If I have anything negative to say about the scientific "establishment" it is that scientists are VERY cautious and deliberate and it usually takes a VERY long time with much, much, much repetition before establishing or changing a major theory. On such large issues, an elephant practically has to be sitting on your couch before the world agrees that something's amiss. I know that's part of what gives science its credibility, but on such an important issue, I think it's prudent to look at the preponderance of evidence and make decisions in a more timely manner. The CO2 issue isn't just about the levels of CO2... It's about the type of carbon isotope that comprises the CO2. Since the ratios are changing, and more of the stable type (C-12) is appearing in the atmosphere, it shows that fossil fuels (millions of years old) are the source that are diluting our atmospheric composition. It's not just that CO2 levels are rising, but the carbonic composition is changing as a result of the burning of fossil fuels. I tend to look very skeptically at the reports that "industry scientists" produce and often find glaring holes in them, as a result. Their shortcomings, of course, aren't what make the headlines because one has to understand the process in order to interpret the results.I still don't find the atmospheric composition interesting outside the discussion of what the source is. The source is obvious. :) The greenhouse effect theory revolves around the effect CO2 is presumed to have on different kinds of radiation, especially together with water vapor.

One thing that I admit might have made me a bit more skeptical, is the way non-scientist get involved. If I want to know ANYTHING, the last people I ask, are the media, politicians or the average joe. They have nothing to contribute, yet they act as if they do.

[Stefan-A]

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/terraimage2.jpg

Just a little update. :D Didn't actually start building it yet, just testing that my measurements were correct. Of course they were.

[adamanteus]

Stefan, no one could ever accuse you of false modesty!:rolleyes:

[Stefan-A]

My brain must have just short-circuited, I have no idea what you are trying to tell me. :D ;)

Why would they be wrong? I made a 3D model of it while I "designed" it, I started a new model and made it from components with the same measurements as the real boards would have and it all fit together perfectly. The test with the real parts just confirmed what I already knew. And that they did a good job cutting them.

[adamanteus]

just testing that my measurements were correct. Of course they were.

That bit!:D Not modest!:rolleyes:

[Stefan-A]

On the other hand, depending on how you interpret it, that could also mean that I wasn't convinced myself, until I had tested it in real life. ;) "Of course" might have been there because I should have been confident in my own skills.

[adamanteus]

Stefan I'm only teasing!:D Why wouldn't your measurements be correct?

[Stefan-A]

Stefan I'm only teasing!:D Why wouldn't your measurements be correct?
Come on, I know you are. :D That was just an attempt to mess with your head a little. ;)

Yeah, why wouldn't they be? ;)

[adamanteus]

So, if you're so sure of your measuring talents, how come you felt the need to test it before assembly?;)

[Stefan-A]

Because I like to fantasize about how cool my projects will be when they're finished. ;) And to make sure that the ones who cut the pieces didn't mess up.

[adamanteus]

Ahh, of course. "They" could have messed up!
Looks like it's going to be a good one, by the way.

[Stefan-A]

It's always a risk. I ordered glass a few months back, the b******s got one side about 10mm wrong.

Too early to tell if it's going to be a good one, I can always mess it up. ;)

Like I said, I have parts for two, but I'm going to assemble just one for now. The second one is going to be a bit different, with two swinging doors and the possibility to divide it. And it sure made a serious dent in my budget. I seriously underestimated the price of the cutting service. :( It would have been cheaper to buy the tools and cut the parts myself.

[adamanteus]

I know, it's those "hidden" costs that really start to mount up and push the price over budget. I always have ground-in finger grips in my sliding glass doors, and all the edges smoothed off. It triples the price.

[Stefan-A]

I always get the smooting off for free, since I'm such a loyal customer. The costs that surprised me were the price of the wood (nearly twice as high as I expected) and the
aluminium-rail-like-thingy-the-glass-panes-slide-in (my vocabulary desperately needs an expansion pack), which cost about half of what I had expected.

[Cazador]

Stefan,

Really great looking wood. I can already picture your snakes within, and it's going to look awesome! Hopefully the memory of the price tag will fade quickly :D.

Rick

[Stefan-A]

I sure hope so. :p Can't believe I actually planned to make three of them.

[Stefan-A]

Ok, so the ventilation is going to happen through four of these (two at each end):

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/ventilation1.jpg

Can't decide if I should mount them on the outside or the inside. :D I know, it's stupid, but both solutions have their advantages. I guess they'd look better on the outside. The holes are 100mm in diameter, by the way, and should provide enough ventilation.

[Stefan-A]

Drilled the ventilation holes yesterday, did a little bit of assembling today (attached the front parts to floor and roof), will finish assembling it tomorrow. Surface treatment scheduled for this weekend.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/terraimage22.jpg

[Stefan-A]

Swinging doors - Glass or plastic?

Suggestions?

[drache]

personally I like glass
it just cleans better

[CrazyHedgehog]

swinging verses sliding...?
swinging seem to get a tighter fit when closed, but a large opening for things to come darting out when you are just changing water or such like, sliding doors allow you to only open a bit....but then can have gaps between the runners or get the substrate caught in the runners.

glass or plastic?
Plastic is light and easy to cut, add hinges, catches etc..... but it scratches over time and will lessen the 'look' of your cabinet. You have spent so much time on it getting it looking good that I would definately go with glass. fairly cheap to buy from a glazier, get the measurements right though!!!!

good luck with whatever you decide...

[Stefan-A]

Yeah, I know. If there only was a third option..

Darting isn't a problem at the moment. Only the female is prone to do it. Swinging doors are a must, since the second terrarium is supposed to be possible to divide into two smaller terrariums. The first terrarium I finish gets sliding doors, but not the second one.

[CrazyHedgehog]

third option,
no glass - use a force field like they used to on star trek!!;)

[Stefan-A]

Fourth: plastic wrap
Fifth: mesh

;)

[drache]

third option,
no glass - use a force field like they used to on star trek!!;)
I wonder whether those high frequency sound emitters that are supposed to keep cats off the kitchen counter would work on snakes

[Stefan-A]

I wonder whether those high frequency sound emitters that are supposed to keep cats off the kitchen counter would work on snakes
Not likely.

[adamanteus]

Got to be glass Stefan.... Altogether better looking. You can still divide a viv, if the doors are sliders.

[Stefan-A]

Yeah, but then you'll have one baby-proof side and one that's not. Besides, I still like swinging doors more. :) Fortunately, I have another couple of weeks to decide.

[Stefan-A]

First of the two nearing completion. It's scheduled to enter service next weekend. ;) Going to use a sealing strip to close the gap between the doors, after all.


http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/Terra-1-99percent.jpg

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/Terra-2-99percent.jpg

[adamanteus]

Looking really good Stefan.

[Stefan-A]

Thanks. About that dividing wall, is there any reason why you couldn't use glass? I mean, there would be two different genera (Thamnophis & Pantherophis) living side by side, divided only by a transparent wall. My spidey sense tells me it's not a good idea (stress), but what do you think?

[adamanteus]

I may be wrong Stefan, but I would have though that so long as one of the genera isn't Lampropeltis there would be no real problem.

[Stefan-A]

Yeah, I think it was the Rossman et al. book that said that the kingsnake smell caused garters to flee. But apart from Lampropeltis, there shouldn't be a problem?

Aren't Pantherophis pretty closely related to Lampropeltis, by the way?

[Stefan-A]

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/Terra-3-9975percent.jpg


Almost finished. The only thing missing is the friction reduction strip from the lower track. And the sealing strip.

[Snaky]

Personally I wouldn't do it, 2 totally different species can always get stressed from each other. But you can always see how it goes for a few weeks and react on it.

The eclosure looks very good :)

[Cazador]

I don't have a sound justification for my opinion, but I wouldn't do it.

[Stefan-A]

Yeah, I'm not even going to bother testing if they get stressed or not. It's just going to be a wall made of the same material as the rest of the terrarium; 18mm wood. If everything goes according to plan, the garters will move in on friday. About 2 weeks later, when the second terrarium is finished, I'll divide it, split up the garters and house the male and the corn in that one. When the corn gets too big, I'll build that third one.

If I get rid of my TV (I don't use it that much anyway), I'll have space for 3 more. :D

[Stefan-A]

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/Terra-4-100percent.jpg

[adamanteus]

That looks very smart, Stefan.

[Snaky]

Very nice! A very natural look, I like it.

[drache]

If I get rid of my TV (I don't use it that much anyway), I'll have space for 3 more. :D
Stefan
i think you should do it
they are far more attractive and interesting than TV

[Stefan-A]

Thanks, all of you. I'm definitely not satisfied by the way it's decorated (lacks climbing opportunities), but it's an issue that will be solved over time. And the basking spot seems a bit too hot (36-38 degrees Celsius).


Stefan
i think you should do it
they are far more attractive and interesting than TV
Can't afford it. :D

[drache]

Can't afford it. :D

yeah
same here
but working on it
someday . . .

[stonyloam]

Stefan: That looks really great! It is fun trying to figure out what you want and how to do it, and you are right there are those “how could I be so stupid” moments. I just try to keep in mind, in the end the snakes couldn’t care less.:)

[Stefan-A]

Thanks. :)

Right now I'm thinking about scavenging my older enclosures for parts. I could use the swinging lexan doors from one of my old ones, but then I'd have to figure out a way (actually I already did) to cover an opening 111.4cm wide with pieces that together are 109.6cm wide. :)

[drache]

Thanks. :)

Right now I'm thinking about scavenging my older enclosures for parts. I could use the swinging lexan doors from one of my old ones, but then I'd have to figure out a way (actually I already did) to cover an opening 111.4cm wide with pieces that together are 109.6cm wide. :)

you'll be using magic, right?

[Stefan-A]

you'll be using magic, right?
Yeah.

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/hah1.jpg

;)

[drache]

nice
I figured it had to happen at the hinge
very nice

[abcat1993]

Yep, it's that magical hinge thing again.

[Stefan-A]

Possible change of plans. The difference in width is exactly the same as the thickness of the material I'm making the separating wall from. Why didn't I notice that earlier? :D

Just need a solution for times when the terrarium isn't divided.

[Stefan-A]

And I still need to solve the lighting and heating issue somehow when it's divided. I think it might be best to just let the heat lamp provide light, even if it doesn't look that great.

[Stefan-A]

Slowly making progress.. I'm about a week or so behind schedule, the corn would need to move in in a week.

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/part2-1.jpg

[adamanteus]

Did you say the partition is removable, Stefan? Nice looking work.

[Stefan-A]

It is removable. Haven't decided yet how easy it should be to remove it (tools or no tools). But first the wood needs to be treated and it'll take a couple of weeks for it to dry enough.

[Stefan-A]

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/cornmovingin1.jpg


And here we go. The corn moved in just minutes ago and the other half is still empty. The wall has a small shelf and the whole thing is removable without the use of tools. Basically, it's held in position by 4 pins.

I hope to fill that second half by the end of October. There's a show coming up and reptiles are expected to be present.

[Snaky]

Looks good :)

[Stefan-A]

Ok, so here's a little update. I've had the first terrarium in use for about 3 weeks and here are the things I've noticed.

It keeps humidity well. However, finding a working combination of heat and lighting appears to be harder than I thought. The 16mm tube worked otherwise well, but didn't provide quite enough light in my opinion. Besides, I have a few ordinary 18W tubes I'd like to put to use. Double 18W lamps produce too much heat, but enough light. A single 18W tube seems to be the most practical solution right now, but I haven't tested it yet.

Also thought about providing light using LEDs, which should produce almost no extra heat, but I need to do a bit of planning first.

The corn's small terrarium works ok. Heat and humidity levels are ok.

[adamanteus]

LEDs...that's a novel idea. I'd be interested to see photos of that if it works out for you. So if the Corn Snake terrarium is working well, why not sell the Corn and buy another Garter?;)

[Sputnik]

You really don't like Corns, do you, James? ;-)

[Stefan-A]

LEDs...that's a novel idea. I'd be interested to see photos of that if it works out for you.
And if I decide to try it, pictures will be posted.


So if the Corn Snake terrarium is working well, why not sell the Corn and buy another Garter?;)I'm trying. :) Trying to sell it and trying to find more garters. If I only knew somebody with an Ophiophagus.. ;)

And I still have the other half of the second terrarium empty.

[Stefan-A]

Going to give the LED thing a try. Just ordered a ready 12 LED kit that's intended to be used in saunas, bathrooms, kitchens, bars, outdoors etc. In other words, it's intended to function in high temperatures (=produces little additional heat) and high humidity. Almost perfect. ;)

[adamanteus]

Sounds promising, keep us informed Stefan.

[Stefan-A]

I sort of expected this; they don't provide enough light. Well, back to the old drawing board.

[Elliot]

You could use one of those fancy curly fluorescent bulbs, I have one and it puts out a ton of light and very little heat.

[Stefan-A]

Tubes are supposed to be more efficient. Anyway, I'm using an old (~25 years) single-tube 18W aquarium light fixture now.

[Elliot]

Tubes are supposed to be more efficient. Anyway, I'm using an old (~25 years) single-tube 18W aquarium light fixture now.

The fluorescent bulbs are rediculously expensive anyway. :D

[Stefan-A]

And I have something like 5 tubes. :D Two UVB tubes, 1 intended for aquarium plants (Philips Aquarelle or whatever the hell it's called) and two regular ones. Won't be running out of lamps anytime soon. ;)

[Elliot]

And I have something like 5 tubes. :D Two UVB tubes, 1 intended for aquarium plants (Philips Aquarelle or whatever the hell it's called) and two regular ones. Won't be running out of lamps anytime soon. ;)

I'm the same way, only with bulbs. I have to use fluorescent lights or small wattage bulbs here though because in Tejas its always over 90 degrees with at least 70% humidity in the summer, so the tanks heat up FAST.

[Stefan-A]

I also have bulbs for every purpose. Right now, I'm just using 25W and 40W bulbs, but I have 8, 11, 25, 30, 35, 40, 50 and 60 Watt bulbs and at least two or three of each. :D I don't know how i managed to collect so many types, but I've used terrariums with heights ranging from 25 to 80cm. I've just used them for heating.

[Elliot]

I have a 20w fluorescent, a little chandelier bulb (lol), a 60w daytime bulb, a 50w tight beam bulb, and a purple 50w nighttime bulb. :eek: :D

[Stefan-A]

So I've used them for less than a year now, and I'm generally happy, after a number of modificiations to the ventilation and doors. Now here comes the next insane plan:

Does anybody have any ideas on how one of these could be turned into something that can stand a lot of humidity? Wood and water (vapour) coming in contact with each other doesn't seem like a good idea. Is there anything that I could cover the inside with, for example?

[Stefan-A]

I'm thinking of something along the lines of 1-2mm thick PVC. Should be able to withstand bases and acids pretty well. Maybe ABS? PC? Polyester? Acrylic?

[Sid]

Stefan, any of the items you mentioned would work. All I do is paint the wood with polyeurathane and it has held up well for me.

[Stefan-A]

Well, I'm sort of aiming for a "dart frog" level of humidity. :D Maybe slightly lower, but not much. Temperate rain forest.

The ones I have made so far, are also just painted with polyurethane.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

here, melamine costs about $25 a sheet. a sheet is 8 feet long by 4 feet wide. Me and my dad have jut bought the materials to build a rack system. I am getting to the point to where I can no longer house all my garters in tanks!

[adamanteus]

Melamine is a good option for vivs with high humidity, provided all joints are properly sealed. I've been using nothing else for many years, and it works for me.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

oh and i'm sure you guys know this but it's important that you replace a UV-emitting light source every 6 months. After that point the UV radiation starts to wear off. the bulb may still light, but there's no beneficial UV coming out of it.

[adamanteus]

Garters in captivity don't really need UV radiation though.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

you don't think so? I dunno, i just feel that any reptile would naturally be recieving UV outside and so i provide it even to my garters. I have heard peole say they don't need it, but they seem more perky to me when they do. Either way though, for your other reptilians it is a good tip :)

[adamanteus]

I've never used UV for my Garters. Diurnal lizards I've kept in the past have always had UV lights, but generally speaking I don't provide it for my snakes at all. Except for a couple of African Sand Snakes I had... but then I fed them on live lizards, so the light was more for the prey.....

[enigma200316]

I don't think they actually need it, but it helps with aesthetics......:)

[Loren]

I dont use uv for any snakes. I do for my diurnal lizards and my tortoises.
There are actually a few people I have come across online that claim they have raised and bred all sorts of diurnal lizards and tortoises without uv of any kind- and that they instead provide basking spots of 130-145 degrees F. with a good thermal gradient down to room temp. Takes a good size cage to allow for this obviously.
One of them has successfully raised and bred reptiles that way for about 15-20 years.
I'm not quite ready to try it myself though, need to do more research first.

[Tori]

James, you may have already thought of this. Have you considered coating the wood with non-toxic clear epoxy coating? That's what I have to use on my waterfall. It isn't cheap but you can get pretty good prices for it on Ebay. You can totally waterproof anything with it.

[Stefan-A]

I'm considering making another enclosure, but I'm not quite sure what to make it from. Glass or wood. It would be a small one, about 50x40x25 cm. Big enough for a couple of babies.

I have all the 4mm glass panes I need, left over from earlier enclosure projects. But I suck at cutting glass and my schedule doesn't really allow me to have a professional do it for me.

The alternative is 18mm wood. That's something I can get easily, but it needs to be cut, and I suck at that, too. It's more expensive, since it still needs to be bought. And I can't use a heat pad to heat it and there won't be much of a heat gradient if I use a bulb to heat it. And lighting is going to be more difficult to provide. The upside is that if I make two of them, I can make them stackable.

Wood is more durable, but needs to be treated. Glass breaks relatively easily (and I move a lot), but is ready to be used practically as soon as the silicone has dried. It's easier and quicker to put together. If I choose to make one out of wood, I need to finish it within the next 2 and a half weeks, after which my own housing situation changes once again for the next 8 or 9 months and I'll no longer have anywhere to build it. If I choose glass, I don't have that problem, I can put it together anywhere.

A "hybrid" solution seems like the only possibility right now. I could make thin plywood floor and glass top for a wooden enclosure, but then it wouldn't be stackable, unless I sacrifice space and design it so, that the enclosure on top of it doesn't have to rest on the glass.

I don't even want to think about how to make the doors at this point. :rolleyes: But tubs and plastic boxes aren't compatible with taking pictures, so they're out of the question anyway. I'm not buying a glass enclosure either, they're always designed "wrong" and why do it when I already have all the materials I need to make one myself.

[adamanteus]

I don't think it would be very expensive to have the glass cut proffessionally, Stefan... as you already have the material. Or is it a problem with carrying the glass to the glass cutter?

[Stefan-A]

I work 8-16, it's a 30 minute drive home and the cutter closes at 16. It's no more complicated than that. I'd have to quit early enough to get them there and then early enough to pick them up when they're finished. And I don't feel like working overtime to compensate for that. In part, it's because I'm lazy and in part because I feel it's more trouble than it's worth. I'd still rather cut the glass myself. But if I make it out of wood, I don't have any scheduling problems at all, apart from the deadline.

[reptileparadise]

Thats sucks Stefan...
Cutting glass is not really one of the easiest things to do (Or it must be me and my two left hands :) )
Is there a way to drop the glass of before he opens and pick it up after he closes?

[Stefan-A]

Unfortunately no. And there's no shop anywhere near where I work, so I can't even take care of it on my lunch break.

[Stefan-A]

So a possible solution has been found. The glass panes will be left alone for now, except for one, which will be cut to proper size and used as a door. I noticed that I have two with the correct width.

There will be a double floor. The main floor will be made from the same material as the rest, i.e. 18mm wood. It will have a piece cut out, with the same dimensions as the heat pad. On top of that, there will be a piece of lexan (polycarbonate plastic) covering the entire floor. Should make it easier to clean, as well. I remembered that I also have two pieces of lexan left over. A bit too scratched to be used as doors, but still good enough to be used as a floor. And as skylight, but that's a different story. ;)

[infernalis]

Sounds like a really cool project Stefan, I never tried cutting the glass.

however I have been getting tempered safety glass as scraps from a glass shop, and that cannot be cut without specialized equipment, so it's always the wood that gets cut to match the glass:D

I like the idea for the floor, now how about the sky light story???????

[Stefan-A]

I like the idea for the floor, now how about the sky light story???????
Not much to say about that. It's just so that it won't be necessary to have any unnecessary heat sources inside the enclosure. And no holes for cables are needed.

[infernalis]

it won't be necessary to have any unnecessary

Caught you!

[Stefan-A]

No you didn't.

[infernalis]

it was necessary to unnecessarily bug you just then:D

I was compelled to be compulsive at the moment:eek:

Hey, my messages are getting pinged by some paxil.org????

[Stefan-A]

it was necessary to unnecessarily bug you just then:D
Epic fail.

[Stefan-A]

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakesies08/enclosures/suckit1.jpg

Just testing to make sure the pieces fit together. Of course they did.

[infernalis]

Epic fail.

Yep, that's me, never small:eek:

[infernalis]

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakesies08/enclosures/suckit1.jpg

Just testing to make sure the pieces fit together. Of course they did.

I like the quality of wood you are using, that will be a stunning enclosure when finished.

[Stefan-A]

Thanks. Still not sure if I should keep it that colour, paint it or stain it (and what colour).

[infernalis]

Stefan, it's your enclosure, but wouldn't a nice natural varnish look incredible, showing off the knotty appearance of the wood?

Or you can paint it purple, and paint the word "sugar" on the side:D

[Stefan-A]

Or you can paint it purple, and paint the word "sugar" on the side:D
Now there's a thought.. :D

But I am thinking about covering the inside with background paper. Preferably in a way that doesn't allow the snake to get behind it and one that isn't permanent.

[reptileparadise]

Nah, not sugar then...but Sugah! You've got to keep it street then!
Purple paint, fur around the edges, a true pimp enclosure! (hmmm...Now i've got an image in my head...a pimp in an enclosure...)

Personally I would go for the natural look. Just a clear, perhaps a bit dark varnish

[Stefan-A]

There will be no pimping of this enclosure.

[reptileparadise]

Ahhh, why not :D
a big ghettoblaster, fur, purple velvet and offcourse, the bling!

The enclosure looks really solid by the way!

[Stefan-A]

28 minutes later..

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakesies08/enclosures/28minslater-1.jpg

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakesies08/enclosures/28minslater-2.jpg

[Bill]

Well from the looks of it , it can double as a bomb shelter or a tornado proof room. Nice job! I would go with the natural look on that one. Seeing as I am throwing my 2 cents in. I would go with a clear polyurathane. Use two or three coats sanding in between. The polyurathanes dry to a plastic like material and will not weep out toxins after it cures.

[Stefan-A]

Thanks.

It's the same material I've used on all the enclosures I have. It's 18mm pine and it's available in the DIY sections in many stores. Even though it's pine, it's virtually odorless.

By the way, you just described how I've made the previous enclosures. :D Natural look, clear polyurethane and two or three coatings (two on the outside, three on the inside).

One hole left to cut, and that's the ventilation hole. I'm probably going to have to make it in the back, since the enclosure is probably going to be one of a pair.

[anji1971]

Well, Stefan, now if I ever get to visit Finland, I not only have to convince you to give me that vagrans I love so much, but the nice vivarium you've made as well!:D

[Stefan-A]

Molon labe, Anji. ;)

[reptileparadise]

Molon what? :eek:

*edit*
ahh, wikipedia does it again :)

[Lori P]

Oh, how can you resist such a challenge, Anji? Let's join forces and go get them!!! :-)

[Stefan-A]

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakesies08/enclosures/ritil1.jpg

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakesies08/enclosures/ritil2.jpg

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakesies08/enclosures/ritil3.jpg

[adamanteus]

It's looking really good, Stefan.:)

[Stefan-A]

If you look close enough, it looks like a 5-year old built it, in my opinion. I didn't have the proper tools, basically just a jigsaw, a rechargeable drill and a square.

[adamanteus]

Well, you must know how to use a square because it looks pretty good on my monitor.

[Stefan-A]

Well, I've made some truly horrible stuff in the past, maybe this one isn't as bad as I think.

It's not very high, but I'm thinking about adding shelf that would run along at least the back wall. Maybe even one or both of the side walls. It would add a bit of surface area as well as limited climbing opportunities. It's only supposed to be big enough for a snake up 6-10 months of age anyway.

[reptileparadise]

Well, I've made some truly horrible stuff in the past, maybe this one isn't as bad as I think

We all have to start somewhere...If I look at the first enclosure I made, I can actually start to cry :p. Horrible looking thing!

[Stefan-A]

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakesies08/enclosures/bah1.jpg

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakesies08/enclosures/bah2.jpg

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakesies08/enclosures/bah3.jpg

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakesies08/enclosures/bah5.jpg

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakesies08/enclosures/bah6.jpg

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakesies08/enclosures/bah7.jpg

[GartersRock]

Pretty!!! *drool*

[jitami]

Very nice Stefan! Don't be so hard on yourself!

[anji1971]

It looks great!
What is that stuff along the top of the glass to clip it shut? Gives a nice clean look -- no hinges and hooks!

[Stefan-A]

It's just aluminium profile, siliconed to the glass. It's supposed to work as a handle and protect the glass, but at the same time also seal the gap between the glass and the wood. I haven't decided yet how to lock the door in place once it's shut. There are so many alternatives and I'd like to make something different. Maybe something like the mechanism on a ballpoint pen.

The hinges are in the lower corners.

[infernalis]

That enclosure make my carpentry work look like a spastic child built them for me.

Excellent looking enclosure:D

[crzy_kevo]

very nice stefan
wish i had the time and money to build something like that

[Stefan-A]

very nice stefan
wish i had the time and money to build something like that
It was built mostly out of spare parts, but I estimate its actual cost to be about 20€. The only time consuming part is when you have to let it dry. ;)

[drache]

very cool, Stefan
now I'm eyeing my spare parts . . .

[Stefan-A]

So, I have yet another project planned.

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakesies08/enclosures/newproject1.jpg

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakesies08/enclosures/newproject2.jpg

The size will be 100x40x40 cm, it will be built mostly from parts that can be found in the local DIY store. I chose to do a mesh top, because I happen to have a 90cm 2x aquarium light taking up space in my closet.

[adamanteus]

It's nice.:)

[jitami]

Looking forward to progress pics Stefan!

[Stefan-A]

It's going to take months to complete it, but I'm in no hurry. I still have plenty of room in the enclosures I already have.

[infernalis]

Stefan, Ever thought of selling blue prints?

Your designs are superb.

[Stefan-A]

I don't think they're anything special and I don't think anybody would pay for the blueprints.

A couple of parts are missing from the models in those pictures, but it doesn't matter.

[reptile3]

I don't think they're anything special and I don't think anybody would pay for the blueprints.

A couple of parts are missing from the models in those pictures, but it doesn't matter.

I would buy... awesome!!:D

[Stefan-A]

I don't know if I even have anything that qualifies as blueprints. I just chose the measurements based on what the store has for sale. That would be 100x40x1,8 cm boards and a bunch of different 100 cm long aluminium profiles.

[Stefan-A]

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakesies08/enclosures/jigsup.jpg

Slowly making something that could be broadly described as progress.

[Lori P]

Looking good. :-)

[Stefan-A]

I still don't have a good enough heating solution for it, though.

[kurtnagel]

Hmm,

Could you put a panel of glass in the bottom with a heat pad? Or are you looking more for overhead heating?

[Sid]

Very nice, Stefan. I like the natural finish you are putting on the vivs. Really clean looking.

[infernalis]

Superb work Stefan.

[Stefan-A]

Hmm,

Could you put a panel of glass in the bottom with a heat pad? Or are you looking more for overhead heating?
Definitely overhead heating. The lighting solution I have, is going to create a "basking spot" almost as long as the enclosure, almost as wide as the hole in the top and starting at a height of about 30 cm. A branch or something similar would bring the inhabitants close enough to bask.

[Stefan-A]

The front of the enclosure is going to be a bit problematic as well.

[jitami]

Looking good Stefan!

[adamanteus]

Nice work, Stefan..... but I must be honest, all those visible wires would drive me insane!:D

[Stefan-A]

Nice work, Stefan..... but I must be honest, all those visible wires would drive me insane!:D
Visible means accessible. :D

[adamanteus]

Visible means accessible. :D

I know, I know.... it's illogical, I just hate visible wires.... a touch of OCD on my part, perhaps?:rolleyes:

[Stefan-A]

Perhaps, James. ;)

[infernalis]

a touch of OCD on my part, perhaps?:rolleyes:


Touch??:rolleyes:

[reptile3]

very nice Stefan!!

[reptile3]

I know, I know.... it's illogical, I just hate visible wires.... a touch of OCD on my part, perhaps?:rolleyes:


James I am the same way... OCD is my life!! All my viv's -wires are hiding!!!

[kurtnagel]

Definitely overhead heating. The lighting solution I have, is going to create a "basking spot" almost as long as the enclosure, almost as wide as the hole in the top and starting at a height of about 30 cm. A branch or something similar would bring the inhabitants close enough to bask.

What does that solution look like? Are you thinking that you need more penetration of the heat from above? If you have a basking solution that covers the length of the enclosure, will you have room for additional fixtures to provide more heat? I'm thinking IR, but you've got me confused with the "basking spot" and the height is problematic. That is why I was thinking a heating pad from beneath.

[kurtnagel]

The front of the enclosure is going to be a bit problematic as well.

Will that be how you access the viv also? Something similar to the other enclosure in your pic?

[Stefan-A]

What does that solution look like? Are you thinking that you need more penetration of the heat from above? If you have a basking solution that covers the length of the enclosure, will you have room for additional fixtures to provide more heat? I'm thinking IR, but you've got me confused with the "basking spot" and the height is problematic. That is why I was thinking a heating pad from beneath.
No, I'm thinking that I'd like to have a distinct basking spot and not one provided by the aquarium lamp I'm going to use to provide light. I did something like this by accident a couple of years ago and the area just below the lamp turned out to be a more popular basking spot, than the area below the actual heat lamp.

If you can see the snake in the picture below, that's where they'd usually sit.

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakesies08/enclosures/lampyexamply1.jpg

I'd also like to keep everything electric outside the enclosure and I'd like to avoid any extra holes.


Will that be how you access the viv also? Something similar to the other enclosure in your pic?
It will be how I access it. The idea I was going to try this time, was the one in the 3D models above. I'm having second thoughts about the low and wide pane of glass at the bottom.

[jitami]

I've wondered this a few times and the above picture illustrates it well. Do you think the snakes are confused by the artificial, and not warm, light? Do they expect it to be warm there and stay there thinking it's the "sunniest" spot? I use the IR heat lamps so I can use the same fixture day and night and sometimes the snakes will be right under the heat, but sometimes they'll be curled up wherever it's brightest, but not actually warmest. Dunno?

Edited to add: for what it's worth the c/b babies tend to find the heat more reliably than the w/c adults.

[Stefan-A]

I thought about that possibility as well, but I measured the temperature in that spot and found that it was very close to what it was under the heat lamp.

Actually, I think that picture shows an older configuration. I did raise the branches by about 10 cm, so that they would get closer.

[gregmonsta]

It's a fantastic set-up mate :)

[jitami]

I thought about that possibility as well, but I measured the temperature in that spot and found that it was very close to what it was under the heat lamp.

I'm going to have to do some testing when the adults become more active again. They have no heat right now, so not much to observe :)

[Stefan-A]

It's a fantastic set-up mate :)
Thanks. :) It was a fun enclosure, but it was too big.

[jitami]

Thanks. :) It was a fun enclosure, but it was too big.

Nah, just need to add more snakes :)

[Stefan-A]

Nah, just need to add more snakes :)
:D Not too big for the snakes, too big to fit in my car. And that happens to be important to me, because I move back and forth between my home town and the town where I study.

[Stefan-A]

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakesies08/enclosures/pile1.jpg

Just to show the size difference between the two old ones and the new one.

[jitami]

:D Not too big for the snakes, too big to fit in my car. And that happens to be important to me, because I move back and forth between my home town and the town where I study.

Ah, this makes sense :)

Btw, they're all very nice!!!

[guidofatherof5]

Great looking enclosures, Stefan.