This is a 1st for me... never a reptile.

[nomoreposs]

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New to reptiles all together-- throwing that out first lol. So my mother was frightened when she saw a snake in her lawn about 2 months ago, called me outside, somehow I fell in love instantly, and now it's one of the family. Pretty sure she's a western terrestrial, I'm in Lakewood, Colorado, she looks just like the google pic search, has the 8 upper labials etc. And, I'm also assuming "she" because she looks more like the female on the sexing diagram, without the gap or bulge right after her pooper and before the tail. She's prob about 16 inches long.. kind of that Go Army olive color, so I named her Sergeant.

Anywhoo, so after Scales 'n Tales told me to keep feeding her crickets and PetSmart gave me deadly red wigglers, I've caught up quickly to what she really needs. And believe it or not, Sgt. did eat at least 3 out of the 6 crickets I first put in the cage when I saved* her 2 months ago... *yes saved, not holding her in captivity lol!

***But one thing I can't seem to get a clear answer on is HOW MUCH to feed her??

Some say once-few times a month, others say multiple times a week. So in the 1st month or so she only ate about 3 crickets, didn't care for a dead goldfish in water, thankfully did NOT eat the wigglers, just played with them lol, then turned down the next 2 batches of crickets. By then, it'd been over a month easy that I hadn't seen her eat and she seemed so skinny & flat like she was depleting mass, so I said screw Scales n Tales saying garters don't eat for a month easy, ran to Petco this time for some minnows---- BAM!! A bigger bowl this time with a live, flapping fish did the trick! She snatched it up first try and down it went! Then I felt awful for starving the poor thing, so she ate a total of 13 minnows/g-fish in the next 5 or 6 days. Then I read on here I'd be slowly killing her on an all fish diet without supplements so I got her the ReptoCal thiamine & calcium powder and some frozen pinkies. Only gave her 3 pinkies in about a week's time, but I don't know if that's too much either. I haven't fed her since monday or tuesday and she seems better. She went from super sweet when she was weak and hungry, to super spaz and territorial after I changed her diet to pinkies and re-did her cage. Sware she tried to snap at me after a fed her a pinkie half and has been super nervous in her cage for a week now, literally running like mad all around, up, and over everything in sight, but I put a glove in her cage thinking she should get used to the glove, then let me take her out again. Worked pretty well, just took her out for the first time yesterday since last weekend, pooped on me, wasn't as docile as before, but she's getting there. She also just shed, so I don't know if that was also part of her attitude..? I know I had a friend with a boa who was beyond nasty when it was shedding, broke thru a big laundry-size plastic tub, blood everywhere because of its S-PMS (Shedding PMS) lol:P

***So now I'm back to the question of HOW MUCH DO I FEED HER without overfeeding her or malnourishing her to death?? When I re-did her cage, I got terrarium sphagnum moss, some mopani wood, the bigger dish just for a pool now, somewhat separated the cage into 2 climates so she's comfortable: a more cool, shaded and wet sphagnum side; the other more warm, "sunny" and dry with aspen shavings (I do not feed her on), a heat mat and daylight above, with entire terrarium substrate Zoo Med Coconut fiber underneath (each side) that's more natural & soft, while it absorbs and breaks down Sergeant's waste. I want her to be as healthy and happy as possible so her life expectancy is on the higher end of the 3-10 yr range lol, so your help is greatly appreciated! ..Sorry such a looooong post!!

Thanks guys!
Lynn

[Stefan-A]

Welcome aboard. :)

You've got the species right and the subspecies would be wandering garter snake.

Finding the right amount can be tricky. I've used a couple of figures as guidelines: 10-20% of the snake's body weight in fish or 5-10% of the body weight in mice. The larger the snake, the smaller the meal should be in relation to the snake's body size.

[guidofatherof5]

Nice to have you on the forum, Lynn.

Here's a link to the forum care sheet:
Garter Snake Care Sheet - Caresheets (http://www.thamnophis.com/caresheets/index.php?title=Garter_Snake_Care_Sheet)

Plenty of things to explore will keep Sergeant busy. Her comfort with you will come on her time schedule.
Best of luck with your new friend.

[Mommy2many]

Welcome to the forum!

[infernalis]

http://www.thamfriends.com/mat.jpg

[gregmonsta]

Greetings :D

[ssssnakeluvr]

welcoome to the forum!!! definitely a wandering garter, thamnophis elegans vagrans. did you see her eat the crickets?? they don't eat insects at all, are unable to digest them...the crickets may have been eaten by the other crickets.. you can try buying trout and chopping into small pieces. leave a nice pile on a lid or plate so no bedding gets in it. you can feed twice a week and she will do fine. if she is eating pinkies, keep feeding them, they are good nutritionally for them. wandering garters are known for eating rodents in the wild.

[RedSidedSPR]

Welcome. It's wandering garter. Yeah, the fish are the only thing mine will eat. But feed guppies, not minnows. Some minnows wont hurt, as long that's not all you feed him 'cause of the whole thiaminaise thing. I think pinkies are the best diet(and some worms), but my parents won't let me get them. I feed mine until he's full, and he dosn't eat that much, but that's just how I do it. Some snakes will eat more than they should, so...that may or may not work. Don't go by me, I'm about as new to this as you are:D

[reptile65]

Welcome! I'm also from Colorado and I have a wandering garter as well.

[zooplan]

Never tell never ever, but I agree with Don about the crikets!
It´s a tale based on a fake photo made by Bill Beatty
It was used in two books and crowds believed.
Never tell never ever and if you could post a movie af a cricket eating Garter Snake, you´ll win the unusual prey award, and keep it for a long time. :D
Wellcome aboard!

[Odie]

Hi, from Oregon, Lynn :)

[ConcinusMan]

"They don't eat insects"

Not true. The insect eating has been proven in wandering garters. Wild wanderings found on road dead, have been found with their guts full of grasshoppers, consistently! Same goes for baby gopher snakes and this is in colorado too. Not saying it's good for them due to indigestible exoskeletons, but crickets are much softer. I don't recommend feeding them insects, I'm just saying that the fact is, many wild wandering garters eat them. I imagine this is in very late summer when it's hot and dry and other food is scarce.

[Stefan-A]

Not true. The insect eating has been proven in wandering garters. Wild wanderings found on road dead, have been found with their guts full of grasshoppers, consistently! Same goes for baby gopher snakes and this is in colorado too. Not saying it's good for them due to indigestible exoskeletons, but crickets are much softer. I don't recommend feeding them insects, I'm just saying that the fact is, many wild wandering garters eat them. I imagine this is in very late summer when it's hot and dry and other food is scarce.
Like I hinted at when I first heard about this, I would like to see it documented and independently verified. One person's word doesn't weigh much in this situation.

[ConcinusMan]

I've heard it several times before that one person I pointed out. It's really not that outrageous of a claim anyway. Heck, I've seen baby corn snakes eat crickets. Ribbons too. Terrible nutrition source, but they do eat them.

[nomoreposs]

Wait.. aren't these all the same?:
Wandering = Western Terrestrial = Thamnophis elegans :-P

..But she's an eater Now, that's for sure! Haven't fed her fish since the week of 13, just 5 pinkies since. RedSidedSPR: I can't let her eat till she stops cuz she doesn't know how-- after 13 she was still ready for more lol. And I'm not going to mess with many minnows/gfish/guppies as they all carry their own prob's, maybe just on occasion. Have yet to try silver sides or grub worms, so we'll see.. just didn't want too many pinkies to make Sergeant "grow too fast with a week heart," so the 10-20% rule sounds like a good place to start:) **so how often do you feed it a %age of its body weight?- just when the visual percentage in the belly goes down?

...Where're you at exactly, Reptile65?

[nomoreposs]

..Random: Sgt. would crawl up the glass, into the inner cage lip and sit there all day, everyday for 2.5 or 3 weeks (like the last pic). Now it's been another 3 weeks and she only sits around or under this one, tiny piece of wood... frickin weird OCD species I tell ya!.. ha

[guidofatherof5]

.. frickin weird OCD species I tell ya!.. ha

Love it:D

[ConcinusMan]

Wait.. aren't these all the same?:
Wandering = Western Terrestrial = Thamnophis elegans :-P

No. As with Thamnophis sirtalis, there are several subspecies. T. sirtalis sirtalis (eastern garter) T. sirtalis concinnus (oregon red spotted) T. sirtalis pickeringii (puget sound garter) and the list goes on. They are not the same, and shouldn't be allowed to breed across subspecies and therefore you should keep them the same sex, or don't put the subspecies in the same tank. T. elegans vagrans (wandering garter) are known to eat each other, or other garters.

A wandering garter is a Thamnophis elegans vagrans. There are also others. T. elegans zaxanthus (Diablo range garter) T. elegans terrestris (coast garter) etc. etc.

These are several subspecies of T. elegans: elegans (http://www.northwestherps.com/elegans.html)

[Stefan-A]

These are several subspecies of T. elegans: elegans (http://www.northwestherps.com/elegans.html)
Two, to be exact.

[ConcinusMan]

I disagree, but then again, so do the biologist that are doing the classifying.

T. elegans terrestris - coast garter.... T. elegans vagrans - wandering garter... T. elegans elegans - Mountain garter. There's three right there.

Here in the Northwest, in hills east of the Willamette Valley, we have a very interesting looking T. elegans that is classified as a T. elegans elegans but I think it's a separate subspecies altogether. It's only in a fairly small range and looks nothing like a typical mountain garter and looks nothing like the rest. there's a picture of it in "reptiles of the northwest" a very different T. elegans. It has a sort of zig-zagged dorsal stripe and is nearly black and white but has a weird powdery steel-blue/grey color on a black background. Not unlike some of my anery concinnus'.

Now, granted, the diablo range garter has been reclassified and isn't considered an elegans anymore but there are still at least 3 subspecies of the Western Terrestrial Garter Snake.

Oops. sorry Stefan. I just caught what you were saying. The link I provided only mentions two subspecies in the Northwest. I still think there's a third though.

[Stefan-A]

I disagree, but then again, so do the biologist that are doing the classifying.
On what basis?

[ConcinusMan]

Sorry Stefan, I think you were saying that there are only 2 in the link I provided. Go back and see my edit. It might answer your question.

[ConcinusMan]

http://www.northwestherps.com/elegans_files/PICT0086.jpg

This is the best photo I can find on the web of a willamette valley variation of the "mountain garter". This photo is not really a good representation of the willamette valley "mountain garter". IMHO, the snakes found there are not mountain garters at all. They have a limited range and are morphologically different than mountain garters found elsewhere. I think they qualify as a subspecies of their own based on range and differences. Sorry I don't have a better pic. Like I said, limited range and not very many photos of them on the web. Heck, as long as people have known about the blue anery concinnus, (decades) have you ever really seen a picture of them anywhere until I uploaded them? No. No photos. Again, limited range and nobody bothered to upload photos of them.

I'm not being boastful. I'm just stating a fact. The Willamette Valley T. elegans is so different, and so limited in range, I challenge you to find more photos. They just aren't out there.

Oh, hey, I just notice in that link I posted about T. elegans' found in the Northwest...

"Notes: There are 3 distinct variations of this snake widely recognized in our area."

Well, there ya go.

[nomoreposs]

...Heck, as long as people have known about the blue anery concinnus, (decades) have you ever really seen a picture of them anywhere until I uploaded them? No. No photos. Again, limited range and nobody bothered to upload photos of them.

+1: ..considering the first Google search resulted in ur avatar lol: Field Herp Forum • View topic - prettiest snake (http://www.fieldherpforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1074&start=75)

[ConcinusMan]

That was posted very recently too. Long after I made my avatar.;)

[reptile65]

...Where're you at exactly, Reptile65?

I live permanently in Westminster but I go to school in Fort Collins.

[ConcinusMan]

If anyone has this book, (reptiles of the northwest) or has a chance to check it out. Take a good look at the Willamette Valley variation of T. elegans. Stunning and very different. I suppose I get my old scanner out of the closet, install the drivers and such and scan it for you all. Maybe I will do that.

Honestly, many people have never seen that T. elegans. I used to visit the area where they are from some years ago and was flabbergasted to find them, but never really knew at the time, what kind of garter snake they were (couldn't ID them in any book or find a picture of them anywhere) until I bought that book recently.

They bothered enough to describe the blue anery concinnus in that book, but didn't add a picture.:cool:

[ConcinusMan]

OK, took some doing but I got the scanner working. Here's the pic. Willamette Valley variation of T. elegans elegans. It looks nothing like any T.e. elegans I've seen elsewhere. Limited range and specimens in that area are pretty morphologically distinct and fairly consistent so I don't understand why they are lumped in with the rest and called mountain garters. (T.e. elegans, a subspecies of the Western Terrestrial Garter Snake) They just don't look like T.e. elegans found anywhere else that I've seen, hence the label "Willamette Valley variation"

http://img697.imageshack.us/img697/5614/74992199.png

[Stefan-A]

It looks nothing like any T.e. elegans I've seen elsewhere. Limited range and specimens in that area are pretty morphologically distinct and fairly consistent so I don't understand why they are lumped in with the rest and called mountain garters.
Perhaps because they aren't genetically distinct?

[ConcinusMan]

Could be, but I was thinking that all that was needed was range and morph distinctions to make them qualify as a separate subspecies.

I mean, I couldn't even ID this snake at all when I was finding them. They looked nothing like any garter in any book I could find. I was leaning toward elegans but just wasn't sure. Turns out that's exactly what they are. Seems to me like they should be their own subspecies. It's not like this is just a color/pattern variation within a variable population. ALL of them looked like this in that area.

[Stefan-A]

Could be, but I was thinking that all that was needed was range and morph distinctions to make them qualify as a separate subspecies.
Not anymore. Since we started learning about using DNA in the mid-90's, the old method of classification has started to become obsolete. DNA reveals the whole evolutionary history of the animal. Usually it turns out that classification done on the basis of the appearance of an organism actually has hit the mark, but sometimes it reveals that similarities are just the result of other factors.

In short, appearance and distribution can work as moderately accurate predictors, but to really find out what's going on, you'll have to go down to the level of genetics.

[ConcinusMan]

True. I for one welcome the change.