moving day!!!!

[HazAnga]

Well... moving day(s) start tomorrow. over the next couple days I'll be moving to an apartment with my pregnant girlfriend, all my stuff will be moved with me including my snakes. one thing that will be changing is the warmth of the room they are getting kept at. At my parents house here right now so far it's been about 22C during the day and maybe goes down to 17-18C at night. The new place will be warmer then that all day, as the whole building is warmed by boiler system. So heat lights will deff not be used for the garters, and lowered for the corn's.
I will let everyone know of the move progress as the rest of the week goes.

Cheers everyone

[guidofatherof5]

Good luck with your move and the soon to be family.;)

[zooplan]

My wish for your move is success,
because you´ll have planed it well, didn´t you?;)

[HazAnga]

Lol, ypu know me. Most stuff is jammed Into a few boxes and its just gunna git brought over to the new place in no particular order lol.

[zooplan]

Moving to a bigger home is allways easy:D
Trouble starts when you have to reject a part of your teasures

[HazAnga]

Well I'm not moving to anything bigger. Just a 2 bedroom apartment with my girl. So almost everything has been moved. Just gotta arrange and move the cages and then later tomorrow with a warm car move the snakes themselves. Hopefully no,one minds the cold weather and the move. Hoping for no stress, for myself too. Can't wait to set the tanks back up again! :D

[guidofatherof5]

Your snakes will think it's just a big adventure.:D
I hope all goes well.

[HazAnga]

lol maybe they do. Everything is moved, and maybe half is organized and put away... bedroom still has to be delt with. The snake tanks need to be set back up. The corns will probably be put back into their cages tonight. The garters mind you might have to wait till tomorrow. Lucifer and the runt will have light and heat tonight too, as they didn't come out of their cages during the move.

[Mommy2many]

Good luck with the move! My snakes did OK when we moved everyone to a smaller house. Some were on the floor, some were in the window. You get the picture. Baby on the way, much to do!

[HazAnga]

Yup deff know how you feel, the apartment is nearly organized and cleaned up and cages are setup. I just have to wait a couple more days till I can put the adults in their home. I will take some pix of what the tank looks like now. It's too late and dark right now to do so.

[HazAnga]

ok! Everyone is moved in and I've taken some pix so here's the pix
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Checkereds/IMAG0075.jpg
here's Major hiding in his hide
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Checkereds/IMAG0078.jpg
here's Helga chilling
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Checkereds/IMAG0072.jpg
Here she is again enjoying her new setup
http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k491/HazAnga/Checkereds/IMAG0089.jpg

[ConcinusMan]

Please don't persecute me but... terrible for many reasons IMHO.

[HazAnga]

? "imho"?

[ConcinusMan]

"In My Humble Opinion" or Honest opinion. What is that substrate you're using? Looks wet. Planted viv's, at least the way you've done there, are terrible idea for snakes. So is only one choice of hide. The conditions needed to keep the plants alive are not good for the garters and visa/versa. One or the other will likely get ill and/or die.

You could do a lot better for the snakes AND have a natural looking "planted" home for them that looks better and is much easier to keep clean and dry is all that I'm saying.

That doesn't look good for the snakes at all. As I was saying in another thread about aphids...


Aphids won't harm garters directly. More concern is to be had about the conditions that would allow aphids to thrive in the vivarium in the first place.

[HazAnga]

Ok. Well I've only just set it up. From for now I'm letting it dry out I agree it seems too wet. But it should be dryer tomorrow, I'm wanting to add some fir chips which will help some and add some texture to it.

[ConcinusMan]

You never answered as to what the substrate is. cyprus mulch is terrible, so is potting soil. If you're talking about gardening fir chips, the kind for landscaping, don't do that either. Honestly, your snakes are way better off on plain old dry newspaper than they are making them spend a day on that wet stuff or any of the others I just mentioned.

The current setup is a recipe for disaster and invites skin infections, scale rot, and respiratory infection.

[HazAnga]

I've gone by what the book "The Art of Keeping Snakes" and I believe fir chips like for orchids. What I have there is just plain Jane soil, not pitting soil, then some peat moss mixed in. All something the book mentions, with lava rock at the bottom.

[ConcinusMan]

Does anyone else here agree with me in the slightest? will you please tell this guy? He's watering his substrate because there's live plants directly in it. Furthermore, he plans to add worms to the substrate. Potting soil is a terrible substrate but "plain old dirt" is even worse! I explained very nicely in a PM but I'm not getting through to him. This is very bad for the snakes.

If you want to use fir bark, use the kind for reptiles. That's fine. And keep it dry for cryin' out loud. The kind for gardening is NOT recommended for reptiles.


I've already dealt with 3 know-it-all teenagers that wouldn't listen to me this year. All of their snakes died or got critically ill. If I have to say "I told you so" one more time this year, I'm going to be sick.:(

[ssssnakeluvr]

I agree.... if you want plants in the cage, put them in a pot. dry substrate is fine, I use aspen lately. putting worms in the soil isnt a good idea...if the snakes don't eat them, the warmth of the cage (to keep the garters warm) will dry the soil and kill the worms fast. they need cool temps to stay alive (thats why walmart and bait stores keep them in fridges). a good sized water dish that the snake can soak in should provide enough humidity for the snakes. too much can cause serious skin infections and even death.

I am not sure about this book, the art of keeping snakes. I need to look it up and read it.....but, you need to remember every different species of snake requires different conditions.....what works for one snake may kill another.... many are specialized and need specific diets and conditions.

[guidofatherof5]

Too much humidity should be avoided. In nature they well try to keep dry when they can.
I agree that a different substrate should be used.

I don't know the book but I doubt if they had garter snakes in mind when they wrote it.:confused:

Is this the book?
Amazon.com: The Art of Keeping Snakes (Advanced Vivarium Systems) (9781882770632): Philippe de Vosjoli: Books (http://www.amazon.com/Keeping-Snakes-Advanced-Vivarium-Systems/dp/1882770633)

[ConcinusMan]

The substrate and environment he has created there might not be so bad for the snake on the cover. Spends most of it's time off the substrate and needs high humidity.

Anyway, I haven't read the book myself and so I can't judge the validity of the content but anyone can write rubbish and publish it. Something to keep in mind. The multi-layered vivarium substrate that Haz described to me in a PM sounds great for live tropical plants and maybe a few frogs but not for messy garters and certainly not for snakes or other reptiles that spend their time on the bottom. Also, there's better materials these days to use in that type of vivarium. The art of creating a living vivarium with just the right conditions for the plants and a few tropical amphibians, no need for changing substrate, and perhaps a waterfall is a beautiful thing. It's just not good for terrestrial reptiles and certainly not good for checkered garters. If you want to create something like that go for it. It's very rewarding when it works out. Just choose different inhabitants. Not snakes.

I've made a lot of mistakes keeping reptiles over the years. I've killed or made ill my fair share of animals. I live, I learn, and I don't repeat the mistakes. I only hope that I can keep others from making the same mistakes.

With all that said, PLEASE read the care sheet. Very accurate info in there. Can't go wrong if you follow it.

Garter Snake Care Sheet - Caresheets (http://www.thamnophis.com/caresheets/index.php?title=Garter_Snake_Care_Sheet)

[HazAnga]

I have read the care sheets. I understand them, and as long as this "multi-layered" substrate goes to my plan, which it will. The snakes will be perfectly fine.
the two plants I have in there do not need alot of water, a little water poured into the tube that leads to the bottom of the cage, will not moisten the top layer of the substrate. allowing the top substrate to stay dryer for the snakes.

[ConcinusMan]

OK, don't listen. I've done all I can.

[HazAnga]

I don't see the problem if it's dry?

[HazAnga]

just because it's not setup just the way yours is doesn't mean it's wrong. I don't see the problem if i have live plants and the substrate doesn't git soaked, a little moisture won't kill them, I've sprayed their tank down in the past and had no health problems. I don't understand why your making such a big fuss over this just because i have freelancing plants in the tank. the soil/peat moss is fine now that it's dryer, you can't expect things to be perfect when you first set up a tank.
If you haven't read the book then you can't say anything against what I've done. I'm not the type of person to give a basic setup for a tank. I'm not gunna put any type of rug down, or aspen bedding, I'm sorry but it's too plain and gets really messy when when, in my experience. I'm trying something new to see how it goes. I'm not worried about any health problems like ConcinnusMan has mentioned like blistering or respiratory infections.

[guidofatherof5]

Nick,
Just keep in mind what too much moisture can do. You might also try potting those plants. That will allow you to keep them but lessen the moisture in the overall enclosure.
Just an idea.

[HazAnga]

well there isn't much moisture in the tank, the hygrometer in the tank is in the yellow around the 36% mark which is the average of what I've been keeping them at, and the plants honestly don't need much water or moisture or humidity... I've even read that pathos can grow as an "air plant" so only with sunlight and a light mist every now and then. and the other plant i have is a low moisture plant as well (hence why i chose them...)

[guidofatherof5]

I'm sure you will keep your snakes welfare in mind with all your decisions.;)

[ConcinusMan]

It's still dirt. Still bad. Dry or not.

[HazAnga]

yes, thankyou lol it's so fustrating when people don't trust in your decisions, my dad used to do it to me all the time... and now i don't have to deal with it no more... just a cranky pregnant women... lol

[guidofatherof5]

I don't think it has anything to do with trusting you.
Members are just making suggestions from their experiences to help you with your snakes.;)

[ConcinusMan]

It's not really about you Haz. Don't take it personally. It's about a bad decision that will effect the health and well being of the snakes. It's not really about who is making the bad decision, but bad it is. Not about trust either.

Think about what brought you here in the first place. Basically, it's a place to come and get good information and advice from experienced keepers so you can have happy, healthy snakes. So why would you not heed that advice? (rhetorical question)

[HazAnga]

but to be honest... i didn't ask for the advise on the setup i created... I'm not trying to be a **** or anything but I have thought up this idea for like the last month, done some googleing and everything. you say that the plants need the moisture and everything when truth is they don't really, the need some moisture and the layered system i've created helps with keeping the top portion of the substrate dryer and the bottom ever so slightly wet, enough to feed the plants what they need.
It is doable, how do you think snakes fare in the wild... the plants arn't potted there... and there's dirt, multch, grass, leaves etc... so what's the difference...???
it's just a confined and controlled version of what you would see outside, i will be adding repti-bark or something for the top to add a bit more texture to it.

[kibakiba]

Honestly, I say let Nick do what he wants, I think he's done enough research to know the risks of it and I'm sure he understands what you're saying to him, but in the end it is his decision and he's already set up the enclosure. If it were me in his position, I wouldn't want to take it all down after working hard to get it a certain way. And it is true that there's dirt in the wild, there's tons of buggies and icky stuff that can harm them, but some of them from the wild are pretty healthy. It is really controlled and I don't see a problem with how it's set up, especially if the humidity isn't high. 36% doesn't seem like that much and what would it matter if he misted it every once in a while to keep the plants from drying out? It'd be like misting the tank when your snakes are in shed. Honestly, I'm not saying this to be rude in any way and I wouldn't wish it upon him, but if something bad does happen, he would learn from that. Sometimes people just need to learn it from experience rather than learning from people telling them.

[ConcinusMan]

He's going to do what he wants anyway.

" It is doable, how do you think snakes fare in the wild... the plants arn't potted there... and there's dirt, multch, grass, leaves etc... so what's the difference...???"

There's plenty of difference and I'm done explaining it to you. Come back and whine about it when your snakes get ill, and perhaps I'll explain it again so you'll know why they are ill. I already told you. 3 times this year, I had teens that wouldn't listen, like you're doing now. Every one of them had their snakes either die, or become critically ill. Now I can only wait for it to happen a fourth time.

Now, what is wrong with doing something like this, which will not make your snakes ill? huh? looks just as nice, if not better:

http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/7564/dscn0813.jpg

You say you read the caresheets and understand them but you ignore the warnings about what NOT to do. Make no sense.

[kibakiba]

This whole thing is getting annoying, just drop it and let him do what he wants. I'm sure if he notices anything even slightly wrong, he'd try to correct it. You're being really judgmental towards a newer snake owner, who is obviously going to make some mistakes, you've made plenty of mistakes, too. I don't see a problem with his setup if he puts some reptibark on it and has a good way of getting the plants watered without soaking the snakes and raising the humidity a lot. I personally wouldn't use that type of enclosure because I'd probably end up having to searching for poop a lot and having to pull out the bark pieces, much like I do with the carefresh, but it seems like it'd be a bit harder with the bark.
your tone in your posts seems rude and uncaring, lighten up a bit. You're also acting like you're so high and mighty. If you know he's going to do it regardless of what you say, why would you keep posting about how he shouldn't? It seems pointless.

[Stefan-A]

Everybody just calm down.

All opinions have been registered and if anyone here has something to say about the other party, do it in private.

[HazAnga]

The way the substrate is supposed to breakdown the fecal matter. Look up 'Bioactive Substrate System'.
I'm done with this thread, Stefan feel free to lock this thread to stop any further disagreements.