New substrate?

[gregmonsta]

I was considering giving one of these a go .... any thoughts?

FinaCARD Maxibale Plus 30 Litres 100% Paper Pellets [Finacard+30pp] - £22.00 : Finacard, Quality Animal Bedding (http://www.finacard-uk.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=22&products_id=109)

Earthly Enterprises Ltd (http://tenburyweb.co.uk/shop/product_info.php?products_id=28&osCsid=6be0fd7028cb029d694d0031a6fc16f5)

[infernalis]

I just looked at both and cannot find any sound reason not to try it.

Good luck and let us know how it works out.

[guidofatherof5]

Looks good.
My only question would be if the material had been printed on before it was recycled. Some inks can be dangerous.
Just a thought.

[gregmonsta]

The ecopetbed is cut into larger flakes from what I can find out ..... but the finacard is free postage so .... for the price of ecopetbed+postage, I could get the finacard with the kitty litter :rolleyes: .... choices, choices.

With the finacard ... would anyone see an ingestion risk? (not that I'm not always present at feeding times)

[gregmonsta]

Looks good.
My only question would be if the material had been printed on before it was recycled. Some inks can be dangerous.
Just a thought.

Both sources claim non-recycled, cardboard factory excess possibly containing coloured card with non-toxic ink.

[infernalis]

Steve - I read the data over, the cardboard is pre-consumer... No ink.

Greg, Any substrate is a risk of ingestion.. I have lost snakes from swallowing, aspen, carefresh, coconut, etc..

I just saw a post on another forum where a snake regurgitated a sheet of paper towel.

[gregmonsta]

Steve - I read the data over, the cardboard is pre-consumer... No ink.

Greg, Any substrate is a risk of ingestion.. I have lost snakes from swallowing, aspen, carefresh, coconut, etc..

I just saw a post on another forum where a snake regurgitated a sheet of paper towel.

:rolleyes: I thought that (after all a piece of fish was enough to badly impact my greedy Xena a couple of years back), but to err on the side of caution I'm considering trying the larger flaked package first to see how it behaves .... I might just cut up a piece of cardboard and do some testing with the size of fish I usually present to the beasties.

[Stefan-A]

Using paper pellets right now. Mold loves it and it smells. It also seems a bit dusty. It gets slightly softer in water, but it doesn't get mushy, so it's still a risk if ingested. Fortunately the pellets are heavy enough that they won't stick to food easily.

Why do all substrates have to be crap?

[gregmonsta]

I've been quite happy with carefresh so far to be honest but, like the paper pellets, it does mould quickly when it gets damp and every second batch or so it does smell quite 'stale'. It's also quite expensive as I'm paying around £20 for 60L .... this cardboard option promises approx 200+L for less.
I always present the food on the repticarpet but they do like to take food 'for a walk' every now and again.
The only problem with ingestion I've had was with aspen. I've seen smaller bits of carefresh swallowed with no ill effects.

Like I said, I'll be giving this cardboard stuff a shot and we'll see how it does. I can imagine it to be dust free (then again carefresh claims this .... and it isn't) and very easy to spotclean.

[mustang]

iv used zoomed aspen (high quality stuff NO chunks of little bark like peices in it), carefresh, and flukers colored aspen (the black color) allthough the aspen isnt as high quality(some chunks not many) its a little cheaper and its colored the color i want for the perfect tank project (thats still going on thats always running into problems) but when zoomed makes black high quality aspen ill be sure to get some ...christas is coming and checker's wishlist is on mine :) ,well everything but freedom :P

[guidofatherof5]

I've been very happy with the compressed aspen pellets made by Gentle Touch Products:
Gentle Touch Products - All Natural Pet Litter and Bedding (http://www.gentletouchproducts.com/)

[ConcinusMan]

If I'm not mistaken, that stuff just swells and falls apart when damp. That just wouldn't do for me. I need something I can dampen to slowly release humidity, still retain it's integrity and shape, and not mold even if kept damp for long periods. I suppose everyone has their preferences based on availability, price, and practicality in their specific situation. For me that would be reptibark/coconut fiber mixture. As far as swallowing goes, I wouldn't want my snakes swallowing any substrate, "safe" or not, and so I take measures to be reasonably sure that doesn't happen.

I'm sure if I had as many snakes and as much surface to cover as you do, my preferred substrate might just be different.;)

[zooplan]

A friend had offered dust free wood chips for woodchip wallpaper, that works fine for is ball pythons, but its too small for my Garters, if I don´t want to change to a off cage feeding routine.

[infernalis]

I really like cage liner "carpet" for babies. I can keep an eye on them better, they can't burrow with it but it does tend to get little white (poop) spots all over it quick.

[zooplan]

I´ve wondered about those carpet too, but it looks not really comforable for my snakes to me. Is it easy to crawl on those carpet?

[infernalis]

The babies seem to move around on it just fine Udo.

[ConcinusMan]

I really like cage liner "carpet" for babies. I can keep an eye on them better, they can't burrow with it but it does tend to get little white (poop) spots all over it quick.

Same here. For the first few months, I used liners for my litters. It need not be barren however. I scattered moss around on top of it, keeping some of it moist. Like you see here:

q_7oq17j7v0

[New Mutant]

I've been using paper towels and really like them (they're cheap and very easy to clean), but Luke has started burrowing in between layers and not coming out for days. I'm looking for a substrate or combination of substrates that's easy to keep clean and clean out of the cage and that they can either burrow in safely or not burrow at all.

[ConcinusMan]

I use this:

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/images/Categoryimages/normal/p_261602_15848.jpg

And I mix it with a little of this:

http://lh4.googleusercontent.com/public/o_b1Al6E6C759dAYLAA9TVfjn5p9_or18KUHouTdvekLraldGH HWxZ5KjB9PxS74lOMJRV3RbItrGSyMbkzn_y9SE2pDWlIo3uhw mFm6jW264ZdJFHTW2jAgSr9frS_yZvw2ChfsjQ

I keep it about 2 inches deep. It take a very long time for it to become soiled to the point of needing replaced, and it makes snake poop/urates odor disappear.

My snakes burrow into it all the time. It's also nice that you can keep an area of it damp to raise humidity. It won't mold or stink and dries quickly.

I purchase it online much cheaper than a pet store.

[New Mutant]

Is it easy to clean out without spilling it on the floor? I keep my snakes in my bedroom, which has long carpet. If it spills and gets in the carpet, how easy is it to clean up? I like to keep my room clean, if only to make my mom happy.

[guidofatherof5]

I like to keep my room clean, if only to make my mom happy.


and remember when Mom ain't happy, no ones happy.:D

[ConcinusMan]

Tell me about it.:rolleyes: ^^^


I really like cage liner "carpet" for babies. I can keep an eye on them better, they can't burrow with it but it does tend to get little white (poop) spots all over it quick.


Me too. I do scatter moss on top of it though, for a little cover and to maintain humidity.

[gregmonsta]

Quick report. Started using this - ECOBED CARDBOARD BEDDING (22 KG) (http://www.gjwtitmuss.co.uk/horse-bedding/pid3562/cid358/ecobed-cardboard-bedding-20-kg.asp?utm_source=googlebase&utm_medium=pricecomp&utm_campaign=GoogleShopping)
last week.

The majority of the cardboard pieces are a good size and therefore ingestion risks are minimal. Does not stay stuck to food easily and falls off as soon as it reaches the mouth if it does.
My boys are still happily able to burrow through it.
Spot-cleaning is fantastic!!! Urates/fecal matter shows up brilliantly. Moisture is sucked out by the cardboard and the affected pieces are a breeze to spot/remove.
Absolutely no dust.
Excellent value for money!!! The bag is massive and will last the rest of the year for sure. Not bad for £13 delivered.
This is here in Britain but I'm 100% certain you'll find similar products in other countries. This is used in (was developed for) stables for horses first and foremost so that might help any search efforts ;)

[Stefan-A]

Any experiences with cannabis (hemp) bedding?

Those of you who have seen my videos on YT may have noticed that I'm back to using newspaper. I'd use bark, but the stores that have it, only have it in pathetically small particle sizes.

[gregmonsta]

Any experiences with cannabis (hemp) bedding?

Not personally, I see it getting mentions on another forum. Apparently it's very prone to mould when wet (someone even found a fungus attempting to mushroom in his) and it's quite coarse with pointy edges on the bigger stalk pieces.
Some rave reviews but I've seen more negatives to be honest.

[Stefan-A]

So it's suffering from the same problems as aspen. Terrific.

[ConcinusMan]

Never tried it but if you can keep it absolutely dry then I would give a try just once to see how it works out for you. I don't see any obvious reason not to use it other than it molds dang near instantly I hear. The product manufacturer says it's absorbant but I doubt that claim.

I don't know about this. I absolutely hate aspen and it seems to me that hemp would have similar properties.

[Stefan-A]

I absolutely hate the substrate issue.

[ConcinusMan]

Any chance you can purchase this stuff online or locally? ECOBED CARDBOARD BEDDING (22 KG) (http://www.gjwtitmuss.co.uk/horse-bedding/pid3562/cid358/ecobed-cardboard-bedding-20-kg.asp?utm_source=googlebase&utm_medium=pricecomp&utm_campaign=GoogleShopping)

Anything made of recycled newspaper or cardboard is an excellent choice and is economical.

[Stefan-A]

Probably. I can get flax bedding, too. At 13,90€ for a 20kg bale. And whatever other type of bedding they use in stables and places like that.

If I could only get my hands on heat panels, that would solve one major problem I have with picking a substrate.

[gregmonsta]

LANZO Herp Cages - Kunststoffterrarien (http://www.lanzo-herp.de/41622.html) these guys do heat panels ;)

[Stefan-A]

LANZO Herp Cages - Kunststoffterrarien (http://www.lanzo-herp.de/41622.html) these guys do heat panels ;)
Bookmarked.

[gregmonsta]

On another note their enclosures look really good ... I've been on a bit of a comparison spree now that I'm planning for what will happen in the snakeroom .... ahem .... spare bedroom in the future. I really like the look of these too -

HP TERRA - Fabrication et vente de terrariums et racks d'élevage (http://90plan.ovh.net/~hpterra/spip.php?article47)

uW0eKoM0LNg

English summary bottom of this page -

HP Terra range of vivariums, terrariums (http://www.rainforest-reptiles.co.uk/hp_terra.php)

After seeing your old thread again I thought twice about MS reptilien.

[Stefan-A]

After seeing your old thread again I thought twice about MS reptilien.
To be fair, once you've fixed everything that's wrong with them, they do what they're supposed to do. :D

But nothing can make them pretty.

[ConcinusMan]

Dang it. I finally find that site in English but every time I click a viv size to check them out, it goes back to whatever dang language that is.

Anyone know of sites in the US that sell these or something like them?

[kibakiba]

You can check online for horse stable substrate, I think that's what it's originally made for. I'm sure you can get that for pretty cheap, too.

[gregmonsta]

Dang it. I finally find that site in English but every time I click a viv size to check them out, it goes back to whatever dang language that is.

Anyone know of sites in the US that sell these or something like them?

It's just the same as the English summary on the French pages. Their full plastic mould vivs are just like visions/herpteks. I haven't seen the aluminium framed versions offered by any US company so far.
These are at quite a good price compared to the moulded products (which are usually prohibitive in cost to a budget like mine). I'm planning on saving up (mostly with any money garnered from breeding) and seeing what I can afford. I may go down the route of wooden vivs again but the properties of the plastic alternatives appeal to me.

[Mix]

Just to update on my own findings: I tried and tested the Megazorb (horse stable substrate), but wasn't really impressed.
It started out fine, but when I cleaned out there was quite a lot of dust at the bottom, despite being 'dust extracted'. It also got really easily stuck to food. So a nearly-full bag is being donated to my friend's horse.
After going back to coco humus, I started to worry that it also gets reeeally easily stuck to food, and picking the bits off isn't really an option. I like that it can be misted, but its absorption made me worry about it getting ingested.

I have come to a compromise: using 'herbi bed' pellets (compressed grass pellets, which seem similar to the cannabis pellets I have seen) on 2/3 of the floorspace, from the hot end across; then a sheet of slate at the cool, wet end, so as to avoid mushy or crumbled pellets. I have moss in front of the pool, which I mist, and the pool and cool hide sit nicely on top.
I have only been using this setup since getting the atratus, so it's only been three days so far, but I already prefer it. Plus it's so much easier to get the water pool out without getting tons of moss and coco dirt stuck to it.
I think this would also work well with reptibark instead of herbi bed.

[Mix]

Herbi bed started to mould - a very fine, pale white coating. Changed it immediately for carefresh.
Found carefresh for sale at 2.99GBP, whereas it normally costs around 5GBP. (sorry, the pound sign isn't working). This was in a store called The Range.

[PINJOHN]

have been looking at a new substrate [to me] for the tortoises called hemp bedding, the blurb suggests its great for snakes does any body have any experience with this stuff, i apologize if this stuff has already been dealt with,as i just didn't have the time to go through the whole thread

[ConcinusMan]

Hemp bedding is a horrible nightmare. That's what I keep hearing from snake keepers.

[gregmonsta]

Quick report. Started using this - ECOBED CARDBOARD BEDDING (22 KG) (http://www.gjwtitmuss.co.uk/horse-bedding/pid3562/cid358/ecobed-cardboard-bedding-20-kg.asp?utm_source=googlebase&utm_medium=pricecomp&utm_campaign=GoogleShopping)
last week.

The majority of the cardboard pieces are a good size and therefore ingestion risks are minimal. Does not stay stuck to food easily and falls off as soon as it reaches the mouth if it does.
My boys are still happily able to burrow through it.
Spot-cleaning is fantastic!!! Urates/fecal matter shows up brilliantly. Moisture is sucked out by the cardboard and the affected pieces are a breeze to spot/remove.
Absolutely no dust.
Excellent value for money!!! The bag is massive and will last the rest of the year for sure. Not bad for £13 delivered.

This is here in Britain but I'm 100% certain you'll find similar products in other countries. This is used in (was developed for) stables for horses first and foremost so that might help any search efforts ;)

Thought I'd update this -

I've been using it for a good while now and will be sticking with it for the foreseeable future. I'm not even halfway through the bag yet. (This thread goes back a good few months).

[Finacard]

I just came across this thread. We produce and supply Finacard cardboard substrate which is used succesfully for many small animal such as guinea pigs, hamsters, degus, rabbits etc etc. The main advantage is that it is very absorbent and virtually dust free.

We do not have any experience with using Finacard for reptiles.

If any one would like to give it a go, I will happily supply some Finacard foc. Just e mail me.

I suspect that it will work well where the enviornment is not moist.

[chris-uk]

Time to resurrect an old thread.

I've switched five of my vivs over to using Repticard (Repti-Card Maxibale (http://www.reptilebedding.co.uk/Repti-Card_Maxibale_17kg/p1685644_7865846.aspx)) and my first impressions are favourable. It's the same stuff that Greg was looking at from Finacard earlier in the thread, but it looks like the company have branded it up as a reptile bedding after getting good feedback and realising that there was an untapped market.

I like the look of it, it looks like leaf litter.
The snakes seem to like it and don't have problems burrowing in it (my normal checkered is burrowed somewhere and I have no idea where she is, the albino is easier to spot).
Spot cleaning seems to be easy, urates are easy to spot. The only trouble is that there's some bits of white card (certainly less than 1% of the whole volume) which can lead to false positives on the "Ah, someone's peed".
I'd be more confident that the card isn't going to make it into a mouth compared to aspen. The card is varied size but most pieces are big enough that they will fall off before getting into a mouth.
It's economical. A 17kg bale of card should last me for a while.

I'm not sure how often it will need changing, or how it will cope with damp from spilled water. But these aren't huge concerns and time will answer these questions.


Here's one of my infernalis on the Repticard, I think it looks quite nice.

8307
(Click to enlarge the photo)

[Selkielass]

This appears similar for the u.s. market.
AirLite Animal Bedding Manufacturer's Cooperative Inc Horse, Equine and small animal bedding (http://www.airliteusa.com/)

[chris-uk]

So after six months of using Repticard I'm moving away from it. I still have about a quarter of a bag but I won't be using it.
I don't change my substrate every week (closer to monthly for a full change) but I do spot clean daily. The trouble I'm finding with Repticard is that it stays damp and then starts to smell in my big girls viv. Part of this is the amount of urine the bigger girls produce, but the other contribution is that the three girls like to slither in and out of their water making the card damp.

Damp card makes for smelly card fairly quickly, plus the card doesn't have a smell of its own like the wood-based substrates so the smell is more obvious.

So, after considering other options I've got a 12.5kg bag of Lignocel. I went for it because it is similar to the aspen I used before the repticard but has been processed in a way that makes it softer and it doesn't have sharp fragments - which means it's safer to feed on. I'll see how we get on with it, but having switched three vivs over to use it I'm liking it. Spot cleaning is easier because the crap is easier to see. Time will tell how it holds the damp.

[CrazyHedgehog]

ooooh, this looks promising, I did a search to look at it and found a review on rfuk.
Lignocel as substrate - A Review - CaptiveBred Reptile Forums, Reptile Classified, Forum (http://www.captivebredreptileforums.co.uk/review-books-products/49494-lignocel-substrate-review.html)

[chris-uk]

Yep, people that use it are generally happy with it. I have a few months before I'll know how good it is myself.

[gregmonsta]

I've stopped using cardboard in my main enclosures too. When using card that had been sitting for a while the slightest wetness caused a bloom of fungal growth.
I've had a preliminary 3 months with cocopeat now. Will properly comment on this substrate at a later date too.

[chris-uk]

The perennial search for the ideal substrate. :D There is no perfect substrate, but I'm learning that it's a case of working out which substrate has the fewest negatives.
I'll probably continue to use cardboard with some of my smaller garters, they don't get it so wet (and I have the remains of a bag to use up or bin).

[Stefan-A]

I've been using a 50/50 mix of coco husk and moss for the last 6 or 7 months. My only complaint is that it's a bit of a pain in the *** to spot clean, since it's like a carpet when it's dry. No other problems so far.

Been looking into straw pellets, but it seems that I'd either have to pay about €20 for small 20 liter (or was it 20 kg) bags, or €155-€350 for pallets of 500 - 1000 kg.

[guidofatherof5]

I'd go with the 1000 kg pallet Stefan.:D Better to have a little extra to work with.

[Stefan-A]

I'd go with the 1000 kg pallet Stefan.:D Better to have a little extra to work with.
Right, I'll just trick some of the local kids into carrying the bags up to my apartment and then I'll just store the stuff under my mattress. :D

[chris-uk]

Don't store it under your mattress. If it's good enough for the snakes it's good enough for you - throw out the mattress and sleep on it yourself.

[Stefan-A]

Don't store it under your mattress. If it's good enough for the snakes it's good enough for you - throw out the mattress and sleep on it yourself.

In that case, I probably won't need to use the bathroom anymore, either. I'll just need to spot clean.

[Thamnophis]

I use this bedding for a few years now and I do not think I will ever change it for something else.

http://www.kousebandslangen.nl/thamnophis/pics/terrarium05.jpg http://www.kousebandslangen.nl/thamnophis/pics/curver1.gif

[slipknot711]

right now i use about two inches of aspen bedding. wondering if it would be easier to use the carpet and then maybe on half of the tank only add maybe an inch or less of the aspen bedding. maybe this would keep my fear down of her eating on or near the aspen. even tho i babysit as she eats.

[Natrix]

Greg, I use a similar product. Back-2-Nature small animal bedding and litter (http://www.back-2-nature.co.uk/) I find it very good

[ConcinusMan]

right now i use about two inches of aspen bedding.

That's all I do.



wondering if it would be easier to use the carpet and then maybe on half of the tank only add maybe an inch or less of the aspen bedding. maybe this would keep my fear down of her eating on or near the aspen. even tho i babysit as she eats.

I wouldn't. Feeding them in place can be assisted by use of a sheet of cardboard placed in the tank to avoid substrate swallowing. Just place a new piece in at feeding time as a place for them to eat then throw it away. I've had problems doing like you described. Snakes tend to get under the carpet and sometimes pinned or even killed. Also you don't want to place cage carpet on top of bottom heat. 2 inches of aspen throughout the enclosure is much safer. Just don't put heavy objects on top of the aspen. Those go on all the way on the floor.

[slipknot711]

great thanks a bunch :)