Self maintaining tanks???

[fish_4_all]

I have read a lot about keeping an enclosure clean, both here and online. I have seen a lot of frog enclosures that are no fuss no mess enclosures with dirt, plants and many other things in them that is rarely actualy cleaned out. I realize a snake is messier but why couldn't it be done with a garter enclosure? Sterile soil that is only fertilized by the snakes droppings, safe live plants, live plants in the water area for taking up waste and other self maintaining techniques that basically eliminate the need to clean very many things short of the glass once in a while and maybe a major component clean up every couple years?

Is it more a worry of possible molds and bateria growing and such or is just a LOT of work to try and get it just right? Is there other major concerns over this that I am not thinking about?

[Stefan-A]

If you pick up a copy of The Art of Keeping Snakes by Philippe de Vosjoli, there's quite a bit in there about "bioactive substrate systems", which is more or less what you're talking about there.

It is possible to do. However, sterile soil is not possible to have but that doesn't matter, because you definitely want bacteria in it. If you have the right type of bacteria in the substrate, they'll take care of breaking down the feces. Unless you are flooding the enclosure with feces or carcasses, there shouldn't be a problem with harmful bacteria and the amount of nutrients available in the environment will limit the amount of bacteria and competition would favour those specialized in that type of environment.

As with aquariums, the bigger the enclosures are, the easier they should be to run and maintain. The biggest problem would probably be too much humidity, which would cause problems with mold and increase the risk of various infections.

As some of you may know, I ran a three month (IIRC) test last winter in a relatively small (70 litre) enclosure, that housed my viperine snakes. The substrate was a mix of peat moss, sand and leaves and the plants I used were pea plants (for practical reasons). The surface was covered with a layer of dried leaves. During this time, I made a few observations:
- The feces were broken down very quickly. They'd disappear virtually over night.
- The plants sucked all the excess moisture out of the soil. Presumably, they did the same with the nutrients.
- The roots made the substrate very compact. Unlike with ordinary substrates, there was almost no loose material that could have been accidentally ingested. When I ended the experiment, the substrate was lifted out of the enclosure in one solid piece.
- There was virtually no dust, even when I let it dry out towards the end.
- It was very low-maintenance. Didn't need to do more, than water the plants once a month.

[zooplan]

I´ve never cleaned my outdoor enclosure.
Once in a while watering when it´s hot and dry in the summer,
weekly feeding when the weather is fine and weeding very few times in a year, that´s all needed maintenance.

[fish_4_all]

That sounds like what i want to do. Would be a larger enclosure or obvious reasons. Thank you for the input. I love plants and having living plants in a stable enclosure with a Garter would be really cool.

[Stefan-A]

I´ve never cleaned my outdoor enclosure.
Once in a while watering when it´s hot and dry in the summer,
weekly feeding when the weather is fine and weeding very few times in a year, that´s all needed maintenance.
You need to post more about your outdoor enclosure.

[zooplan]

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/enclosures/3741-outdoor.html

Yes, I have to think about an update:o

[suklaamumina]

If you pick up a copy of The Art of Keeping Snakes by Philippe de Vosjoli, there's quite a bit in there about "bioactive substrate systems", which is more or less what you're talking about there.

Sounds interesting.. Do you know if you can get that book somewhere in Finland? I tried looking in libraries, but no luck (as I expected...) :/

[Stefan-A]

Sounds interesting.. Do you know if you can get that book somewhere in Finland? I tried looking in libraries, but no luck (as I expected...) :/
Yes, you can get it here: The Art Of Keeping Snakes (9781882770632) - Philippe De Vosjoli - Kirjat - BOOKPLUS.FI (http://www.bookplus.fi/kirjat/de_vosjoli%2c_philippe/the_art_of_keeping_snakes-4524479)

I get practically all my books from there.

[MasSalvaje]

If you pick up a copy of The Art of Keeping Snakes by Philippe de Vosjoli, there's quite a bit in there about "bioactive substrate systems", which is more or less what you're talking about there.

It is possible to do. However, sterile soil is not possible to have but that doesn't matter, because you definitely want bacteria in it. If you have the right type of bacteria in the substrate, they'll take care of breaking down the feces. Unless you are flooding the enclosure with feces or carcasses, there shouldn't be a problem with harmful bacteria and the amount of nutrients available in the environment will limit the amount of bacteria and competition would favour those specialized in that type of environment.

As with aquariums, the bigger the enclosures are, the easier they should be to run and maintain. The biggest problem would probably be too much humidity, which would cause problems with mold and increase the risk of various infections.

As some of you may know, I ran a three month (IIRC) test last winter in a relatively small (70 litre) enclosure, that housed my viperine snakes. The substrate was a mix of peat moss, sand and leaves and the plants I used were pea plants (for practical reasons). The surface was covered with a layer of dried leaves. During this time, I made a few observations:
- The feces were broken down very quickly. They'd disappear virtually over night.
- The plants sucked all the excess moisture out of the soil. Presumably, they did the same with the nutrients.
- The roots made the substrate very compact. Unlike with ordinary substrates, there was almost no loose material that could have been accidentally ingested. When I ended the experiment, the substrate was lifted out of the enclosure in one solid piece.
- There was virtually no dust, even when I let it dry out towards the end.
- It was very low-maintenance. Didn't need to do more, than water the plants once a month.

So what was your verdict? Are you going to go large scale, more permanent with it, or was it just a one time thing?

I know I never have to worry about cleaning in my window well enclosure, just the occasional pruning the overgrowth. It has by far been the best looking and easiest maintained enclosure I have.

-Thomas

[Stefan-A]

So what was your verdict? Are you going to go large scale, more permanent with it, or was it just a one time thing?

I know I never have to worry about cleaning in my window well enclosure, just the occasional pruning the overgrowth. It has by far been the best looking and easiest maintained enclosure I have.

-Thomas
Right now, I feel like if I ever go large scale, it will have to be with a small arboreal species of reptile. Small size to keep down the volume of feces and arboreal to keep the animal well clear of the substrate. I can imagine it working perfectly well with something like climbing species of gecko or anoles. If I were to use it for snakes, I'd make sure the enclosure would be far larger than the minimum recommended for the species.

It worked great for the short time I used it, but having had time to think about it, I have no doubt that without a proper fauna of decomposers, I would have run into trouble sooner or later.

[ConcinusMan]

Right now, I feel like if I ever go large scale, it will have to be with a small arboreal species of reptile. Small size to keep down the volume of feces and arboreal to keep the animal well clear of the substrate. I can imagine it working perfectly well with something like climbing species of gecko or anoles. If I were to use it for snakes, I'd make sure the enclosure would be far larger than the minimum recommended for the species.

It worked great for the short time I used it, but having had time to think about it, I have no doubt that without a proper fauna of decomposers, I would have run into trouble sooner or later.
I was thinking the same things ^^^ Didn't want to sound discouraging so I didn't say anything but I just wouldn't try it. If it doesn't work out like it should, the health of your animal is at stake. I'd rather not take that gamble. Seems too high a risk for skin and respiratory infections.

[suklaamumina]

Yes, you can get it here: The Art Of Keeping Snakes (9781882770632) - Philippe De Vosjoli - Kirjat - BOOKPLUS.FI (http://www.bookplus.fi/kirjat/de_vosjoli%2c_philippe/the_art_of_keeping_snakes-4524479)

I get practically all my books from there.

Thanks :) I might buy it, since it's only about 15 euros.. But probably not before my entrance exams are over... I have way too much to read now anyway, when I think about it...

[Stefan-A]

It's definitely worth the price.

[RicMartin]

I agree that the idea of bio vivs for snakes make me too nervous to risk it, but I have been experimenting with bio tanks for guppies (the beautiful garter food) with many inches of sand, I add MicrobeLift, a bacteria combo that makes the water smell a tad sulfurish, but breaks down the wastes to the point that the plants can clear the water to a pristine point. I have both fast (I tream them often) and slow growing plants (ferns), plus that little green pond mini plant that floats & covers much of the water surface, providing some shade from the lamps. My grownd water clover & moss are just beginning to show here and there. Water changes are now about monthly (I started the tanks in 2009, when I got my first blue radix) and soon will be not even be every month. Yes, I know, I need pictures.
I'm getting there, I will post a flood of Picts this weekend, if I can scape my field of time traps.
Ric

[ConcinusMan]

Yes, but this sort of thing has been done with aquariums, and proven to work safely for decades. That's the entire idea of an under gravel filter. Sucking the water through a layer of sand and/or gravel at the bottom acts as a bio filter. Heck, I've even seen a sewage treatment plant that is completely biological. Sewage goes in one end and pristine, drinkable water comes out the other end. My point is, I wouldn't hesitate to use these methods in a fish tank because there are ways to monitor (test) the water, and the fact that people have been doing this forever. And really, if something goes wrong, what do you lose? a few inexpensive and replaceable fish.

If you're doing this with garter snake tanks how would you even know if it was unhealthy unless your snakes started getting sick? There's no water turning cloudy and you don't have all the testing kits that aquariums have to spot water problems before they become fatal.