Checkereds Brumation temp?

[HazAnga]

I'm just wondering what would be the ideal brumation temperature for checkered's, I know you guys all say between 50-55 but I've also heard that they can also go like 10 degrees less then average temp and shorter light cycle.
And how long should be a good length of time to brumate them? They will be going as soon as beginning of december because I'm going to be moving into my appartment by then and I'd rather not start them and have to move them during.

[Stefan-A]

Ideal would probably be the temperature they'd experience in the wild.

I have an article somewhere that stated that temperatures as low as 4 C (about 40F) can cause neurological damage in checkered garters.

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakesies08/article-u-garters2b.jpg

[indigoman]

Holtzman et al.,1989 [7 weeks is the shortest period of brumation and it stimulated sucessful breeding. however they state in the wild some area populations may not brumate more than a few weeks.

[HazAnga]

So around 10 degrees C, is the ideal temp? And having a water bowl is needed, and only maybe 2 months of brumation is needed.
Do I have all this correct, or no?

[indigoman]

Only talking on my experience just a cooling down and just natural light with 5o f. the minimum.

[Stefan-A]

So around 10 degrees C, is the ideal temp? And having a water bowl is needed, and only maybe 2 months of brumation is needed.
Do I have all this correct, or no?
Without accidentally turning it into a science, I'd say 10-12 C would be okay for this species. Maybe someone who actually keeps this species could give his or her opinion.




Useless, barely relevant trivia: European adders in southern Finland don't retreat to their dens before the maximum day temperature of the ground drops to 10 C.

[HazAnga]

well so far without the weather getting too bad the cold room has only gotten to be 55.7 and a max of 57.2, but i had opened the room for a short bit while looking for something. So I'm hoping that in 3 weeks that it'll be colder so I can put them in there, they haven't been fed for a month or more (still active) but I'll only plan to brumate them for a couple months I think at most.

[guidofatherof5]

Sounds like a plan.
Buy a postage scale and keep a log on the weights.
If you see too big a weight loss or they appear to be losing too much weight you may have to pull them earlies than 2 months.

[HazAnga]

What can be classified as too much?

[zooplan]

At least when you´ll recongize weight loss by sight.

[guidofatherof5]

For my radixes I usually see only a 10-15 gram loss over a 2 month brumation.
This is with an average weight between 175-220 grams.

[ConcinusMan]

Holtzman et al.,1989 [7 weeks is the shortest period of brumation and it stimulated sucessful breeding. however they state in the wild some area populations may not brumate more than a few weeks.

Or at all;)

[HazAnga]

that is true, but I want to try it, at least for a month or so.
and I weighed them November 8th and they were 65.4g, 91.1g, and 92.2g (females were heavier) I've turned off all heat sources and just left a couple florescent uvb bulbs on, they git the heat of the room which at the high might put them at 20 degrees Celsius during the day, but at night the whole room gits to be a low of 17.7 C. could that be cold enough for them and not need to brumate, they havn't eaten in a while.

[guidofatherof5]

Keep us posted as things progress, Nick.

[jamromhem]

I also have a checkered. I have never brumated her, but I did save her from my swimming pool. (and as such am from the area of their habitat) The winters there would usually at the coldest (night temp) be in the high 40s and the day temps in the mid 50s. so 50-55 sounds reasonable for them. and 1 1/2 - 2 months is about the length of a good winter.. So i would think a normal brumation period for them to be about 5-8 weeks.

I hope this helps some. It is from my experience in the area they naturally range and not from actually brumating mine. She has never asked to :P

[HazAnga]

lol ok thank you, that does help.

[ConcinusMan]

So it does sound like just cooler temperatures and shorter days for about 2 months should probably do the trick. I doubt that a full-out deep refrigerated, traditional brumation wouldn't be necessary to get checkered's to breed.

[HazAnga]

Well, I did git things set up and everything is running smooth, as some may know i brought the garters out of their short slightly cooler brumarion. And the past 2 weeks or more they've been mating (usually seen after lights go off. My females are eating again, but my male is not interested at all. I understand he's taking care of business, but how long can this last for. And how much longer will it be till I might be able to finally git him to successfully eat?
Another question, what's a rough estimate of a gestation period do they have? 2, 3 months? When should I be putting the ladys in a different bin for birthing?
Rough time when I put them back together was about a week and a half into December.
Sorry for the long post.

P.s. the viv setup is working good and no problems with high humidity or wet substrate.

[guidofatherof5]

He should stop courting after the female becomes gravid. As long as she's sending out pheromones he'll stay after her.
I've seen gestation as short as 65 days and as long as 100 days in my radixes. I think some of it is whether there is a warm place for her to rest. It's just my opinion but I think the warm temps speed the development along and shorten the gestation time.
Have you witnessed a lockup?

[infernalis]

. It's just my opinion but I think the warm temps speed the development along and shorten the gestation time.

I feel the same way Steve. I notice that gravid moms spend a bit more time basking than non gravid snakes.

[HazAnga]

I havn't actually seen the "lockup" because that part is almost always facing away from the front. But I'm sure it's going to happen, and I'm hoping that he stops courting them soon so he'll eat... it's been a long time since he last ate. He doesn't look sick at all he looks perfectly healthy but i just want him to eat soon.

[guidofatherof5]

I havn't actually seen the "lockup" because that part is almost always facing away from the front. But I'm sure it's going to happen, and I'm hoping that he stops courting them soon so he'll eat... it's been a long time since he last ate. He doesn't look sick at all he looks perfectly healthy but i just want him to eat soon.

What you want may not be what he wants at this time.
The man's working. He'll eat when he's good and ready:D