genetics

[PINJOHN]

hi i recently had an opportunity to purchase a female san francisco garter snake [tetrataenia] i passed on the opportunity on two counts the first was that i could not afford it, the second was the concern that i heard that they are not
as robust as they should be due to their limited genetic diversity her in Europe.
the above facts did not stop me drooling over the idea of owning some beautiful but healthy san frans.
my knowledge of genetics is woeful, so my idea such as it is, would be to breed the female san fran to a male melanistic eastern, my theory [and thats all it is] is that he would bring the required vigour to the young, but being recessive he would not pass on his genes; and thereby stop the young from being intergrades then i started thinking well if he does not pass on his genes perhaps he might not pass on the required vigour thats needed and perhaps they would still be classed as intergrades it was at this point i developed a thumping headache, this heavy thinking cant be good for your health, im off to get some aspirin your input would be appreciated but please use words with not to many syllables [ remember my headache ]

[Stefan-A]

my knowledge of genetics is woeful, so my idea such as it is, would be to breed the female san fran to a male melanistic eastern, my theory [and thats all it is] is that he would bring the required vigour to the young, but being recessive he would not pass on his genes; and thereby stop the young from being intergrades then i started thinking well if he does not pass on his genes perhaps he might not pass on the required vigour thats needed and perhaps they would still be classed as intergrades it was at this point i developed a thumping headache, this heavy thinking cant be good for your health, im off to get some aspirin your input would be appreciated but please use words with not to many syllables [ remember my headache ]
Half of the genetic material comes from each parent, no matter what.

I know I'm repeating myself here, but they wouldn't be intergrades. They'd be hybrids. An intergrade is not a mix of two subspecies belonging to the same species.

Naturally, I wouldn't like it if someone even tried to cross a T. sirtalis tetrataenia with a T. sirtalis sirtalis (melanistic or not).

[infernalis]

No disrespect mate, but that's not even close to a good idea.

I have heard it "through the grape vine" that "someone" is trying to use Thamnophis Infernalis to accomplish this goal.

At least that way you would be working with animals that are so close to each other that most likely it occurs naturally in the little bit of California habitat that is left.

[zooplan]

T.s.tetrataenia´s should not be bred to any other specy nor subspecy!
Yes, some breeders tried that in Europe, forced by the fact, that ´tetrataenia was told to be the same as ´infernalis for a while some years ago. Because the limited number of avaliable California red sided breeders were inbred too the only success of this experiments were some lost branches at the pedigree ! No serious breeder like to cross in hybrids, and all breeders, who tried it or purchased some of the offspring were marked!
If San Francisco Garter Snakes are not grown and bred clean, they´ll lose any opportunity to refresh the natural populations later.

I´m sure T.s.tetrataenia will be extinct soon in all known habitats, if the government isn´t able to modify their enviromental policy!

[infernalis]

At least if they would allow T.s.tetrataenia in private US collections the species as a whole could carry on when that last tiny hunk of land is no longer able to sustain..

I have to concur with Udo, if nothing changes there will not be any T.s.tetrataenia left in the wild and the only remaining specimens will be the ones (in private collections) in Europe & other parts of the world.

[guidofatherof5]

At least if they would allow T.s.tetrataenia in private US collections the species as a whole could carry on when that last tiny hunk of land is no longer able to sustain..

I have to concur with Udo, if nothing changes there will not be any T.s.tetrataenia left in the wild and the only remaining specimens will be the ones (in private collections) in Europe & other parts of the world.

What's even more sad is the fact that the snakes on display in the U.S. zoos came from Europe(Amsterdam Zoo). The bloodline isn't any better for breeding over here.
I spoke to the person in charge of the captive population at the S.F. Zoo and he said that the Government was going to allow them to keep any injured snakes that were found.
Not the brightest news considering the injures usually come from lawn mowers.

[infernalis]

Someone once told me that there was money to be made (federal funding) by keeping them endangered.

Seems almost reasonable since under any other circumstances most people (present company excluded) would not give a rats behind about garter snakes....

Example, "animal planet" runs all kinds of shows to make us feel bad for whales, seals, dolphins, etc...

When was the last time they ran any specials that focus on tetrataenia??

[zooplan]

The captive population at the US. Zoos is down to 4 specimens !
They were purchased (with assistance of the Rotterdam Zoo) in 2005 from a Dutch private breeder, who quit breeding ´tetrataenia soon later.
The offer to use injured snakes for a breeding program brought nothing.
Since five years the zoos were not able to aquire one single San Francisco Garter Snake, no snake were bred and if they are not able to breed soon, there will be no disblayable T.s.tetrataenia in the USA anymore. It was very sophisticated to get the import permission in 2005!
I don´t think that there will come another occasion soon.

[guidofatherof5]

I think if these snakes were not snakes, had fur and cute little faces there would be more work done towards helping them.
It's bad enough they are snakes but Garter snakes! Nobody wants to help them.

[PINJOHN]

my intention with this post is to stimulate debate which is one of the purposes of the site i can assure you i had no intention of attempting any such thing , although i have kept garters for many years i have not got around to breeding my snakes for at least the last five years and when i did the purpose was to give the young away to anyone i could get interested in keeping garters, being on the site reading the story's and seeing the photos of broods raised by members has moved me to consider breeding at the very least my checkereds next year, any young which i dont give away will go to my local pet shop in exchange for dry goods, making money from my .hobby. interest. passion. has never been my scene and in saying this, its no criticism of any members who do sell their offspring which does after all allow the rest of us to get our hands species which other wise would be difficult to get. the purpose of this rather long winded discourse is to allay the fears of members who might have feared the worse
apology's to stefan for confusing my intergrades with my hybrids, and to keep the subject going, can it be argued that the fact that the melanistic father is unable to influence the offspring means that those babys that express san fran colours are in fact true san frans but with the ability to throw the occasional black snake, in other words the full san fran genes but carrying a separate group of genes in a piggyback manner

[Stefan-A]

I´m sure T.s.tetrataenia will be extinct soon in all known habitats, if the government isn´t able to modify their enviromental policy!
Short of relocating San Francisco, there's not much that can be done to keep them from going extinct in the near future.

[guidofatherof5]

I´m sure T.s.tetrataenia will be extinct soon in all known habitats, if the government isn´t able to modify their enviromental policy!

If our Government is their only hope, than they are probably doomed.

[mb90078]

I find it so hard to believe that nobody out there is breaking the law and breeding them. I understand that it's a completely niche pet, but it still boggles my mind that nobody is pumping fresh blood into the system (not that I am saying they should).

On another note, if the situation really doesn't improve at all, I would have to disagree with you guys about hybridizing. You might as well keep the genes out there, even if muddied, then for them to disappear altogether. The key is in representing them as they are, and not advertising them as purebreds.

[Stefan-A]

You might as well keep the genes out there, even if muddied, then for them to disappear altogether. The key is in representing them as they are, and not advertising them as purebreds.
For what purpose? And how would you know which gene is carried by which individual?

It's easier to just freeze a few samples.

[gregmonsta]

With the amount of care the breeders in mainland Europe have put into keeping studbooks/logging the groups sold from zoos/focusing on keeping breeding lines as far removed as possible - the important thing will always be to source snakes from different breeders. Hybridisation will throw up it's own issues and I don't think diluting the bloodline will achieve anything.
The most ethical thing would be to source different snakes from the established genepools/bloodlines.
Personally, I would source one from the Dutch bloodlines and one from Germany or the Austrian bloodline.
With the careless tendencies I've observed in Britain (ie - buying 1.1 to breed, people not knowing that garters come in species/sub-species as opposed to being morphs and hybridising without a second thought) I would only buy a British SanFran from a wholly reliable breeder (and only if the parent group was not a group of siblings).

[MasSalvaje]

Speaking on tetrataenia in the wild, I think we are looking at this problem from the view of pet owners and not what is necessarily the best for the tetrataenia population. Not to say that all points made are wrong on the matter but there are so many variables that frankly cannot be discussed here. It is not as simple as collecting a few specimens, getting them to breed, and then releasing them into the wild. The number one reason for population decline in the SanFran is habitat loss, until that problem is fixed (very unlikely), captive breeding would be uneffective. It doesn't do any good to keep captive tetrataenia to pump into the wild population if there is no where to put them. Moreover creating captive populations could possibly lead to even further drastic bottlenecking in the gene pool, making them more susceptible to declines in other areas in addition to the habitat loss. We are use to pairing off our snakes which is fine for the pet trade but in the wild a female will breed with multiple males every year and can use any or all of the males sperm to fertilize. That is a much more effective way of gene dispersal than any of us could achieve in captivity and exactly what the small population needs at this time to stay as strong as possible.

We shouldn't act on the matter just to say we are doing something. We need to make sure we are doing what is the very best for the species otherwise we might as well just do as Stefan said and freeze a few to use in the future.

-Thomas

[mustang]

i am doing my sci fair project over bp genetics ill either go back to garters or the venom project that got aproved but shut down by a&m (i have a friend whom owns venomous snakes now)

[zooplan]

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/general-talk/6564-restore-sharp-park-san-francisco-garter-snakes.html?highlight=sharp+park

[infernalis]

I'd tend to believe that considering the tiny piece of real estate that is left, that the gene pool is already weakening in the wild....

[ConcinusMan]

If San Francisco Garter Snakes are not grown and bred clean, they´ll lose any opportunity to refresh the natural populations later.

I´m sure T.s.tetrataenia will be extinct soon in all known habitats, if the government isn´t able to modify their enviromental policy!

CB San Fransisco garters will never be used to refresh natural populations anyway.:cool: The problem is, the remaining habitat can only support the snakes that are currently there. That is why there are no CB breeding projects to "save" the species. Adding more snakes will do more harm than good. The only way to increase their population would be to preserve current habitat and to restore historic habitat.

Of the populations that still exist, and are protected, their greatest threat is the water. The land is already off limits to development for many of the snakes, but they are already having problems with runoff from developed areas fouling up the water. One little screw up, one little disastrous spill and it could spell the end for them. Wouldn't break land developers hearts one bit I'm sure. In fact, I wouldn't put it past a few of them, to purposely sabotage the species.

Even for inbred struggling captive populations, introducing hybrids is the worst thing you can possibly do. If you do that to save them you are defeating the purpose since they will no longer be S.F. garters. They will be hybrids.

[infernalis]

PlToWqpsXbM

[zooplan]

If this project is successful in time, it will develop much more space for the snakes than the golf course itself.
It will unite Laguna Salada, Mori Point, Sharp Park and the valley behind as one vast habitat, where a lot of SFGS and Redlegged Frogs could survive!

[infernalis]

That would be very nice. ;)

[Thamnophis]

I had this year 39 healthy young from 1 female tetrataenia and most of them are still alive and kickin'.
This subspecies is a perfect animal for the terrarium.