We need...

[KITKAT]

... a legislative forum. We have two or three states that are working to pass legislation right now that could affect garters if they are identified as rear fang snakes.:mad:

[Boots]

Hi KitKat,

Can you please give more information on what you are suggesting, and maybe we can create a new section that fits the bill if needed.

Jason

[KITKAT]

Right now, there is a bill passing in IOWA that will decimate the reptile fancy. An almost identical bill is also being heard in OHIO. I have info on the next hearings in committee on the Ohio bill, and would like to have a herp law section where those who are watching such concerns can post info.

Testimony for the Ohio bill will be 8:30 AM on May 2, for example, and I can also post the room number and a few comments on what to wear, what to say if you want to testify against the bill, and etc. We also just need warm bodies in opposition, so testimony is not the only reason to attend. I am doing this from memory, but I think the room number is 116.

One of the concerns with the bill is language that requires licensing to own rear-fanged snakes.

[Volksdragon]

Oh great, Ohio too?

[Sid]

South Carolina is currently working in the direction of a law against the public keeping what they term "dangerous species". At present this is intended to be any large constrictors and all venomous. I'll do some more research on what is happening here and post an update soon.

My concern is, if they pass on this, where will it stop? Will all reptile keeper finally be forced to stop what we are currently enjoying?

Sid:mad:

[KITKAT]

Ohio, Iowa, and now S. Carolina. And meanwhile, the ARs have a bill in California that is frightening to me... it will outlaw or practically speaking, shut down, ALL breeding of dogs and cats. No matter how ethical the breeder. No matter whether it is someone who shows purebreds.:mad:

The whole strategy is to seperate us into little groups and then take each group out one at a time...:eek:

[drache]

I heard about the pit bull issue in California, and it sounded so kooky to me that I thought it was some kind of hoax, or paranoid raving
after what you're saying, I'm now thinking it might be true
I cannot find any site on the internet, that will give me clear information on what's illegal to keep in my state. From what I heard, it's all boids, hot snakes, monitors, iguanas, and probably then some.
I didn't even notice when exactly these laws shifted from applying only to the five Borroughs of NYC, to encompassing all of NY state.
I am certain that there are tons of people keeping these animals who aren't even aware that their pet has become contraband and they themselves criminals.
If I can't find it by looking, how would they know?
I really want to know where one can view the specific laws. I'd like to know whether it's all boids, or just the big ones, for example.
I think this is totally nuts anyway. (insert rant here)
Sorry, here I go preaching to the chorus again

[Cazador]

Hi Rhea,
You'll probably have to contact the New York State Department of Environmental Conservation. Here's a link to their website:

New York State Department of Environmental Conservation - Protecting NY's Environment and Managing its Natural Resources (http://www.dec.state.ny.us/)

Here's a link to the Fish and Game Agencies for the other 49 states for everyone else:

States Fish and Wildlife Departments (http://www.lib.washington.edu/fish/fandg/fandglist.html)

Rick

[drache]

Rick
that is a fabulous site
it's got a gigantic subject index of a ton of stuff I want to know about
way cool
thanks
I need to really peruse it more, because so far I've not found anything pertaining to laws governing the keeping of animals
there are links to legislative data bases
I've gone through this before to the point of tears
perhaps I'm not good at navigating the internet
or it's my English
it's not usually a problem though . . .

[Cazador]

Rhea,

I'd just call your regional DNR office and ask your question directly. Maybe they'll refer you to a website, but it sure beats trying to navigate through the endless sea of links ;). Try this page for phone numbers:

Regional Offices (http://www.dec.state.ny.us/website/about/abtrull3.html)

Rick

[adamanteus]

I think certain controls, if well thought out, are a good idea. Certainly in the case of dangerous animals. I feel that the keeping of "true" venomous species should be controlled, and also certain pythons and the Anaconda. That said, I think a blanket ban on all venomous species is folly....the bite of many venomous species is no more threatening than a bee sting.

Also, I feel that the keeping of even extremely dangerous animals should not be excluded, merely well controlled. If a person can show that adequate care can be provided and that all reasonable precautions have been taken to prevent an accident, they should not be denied the opportunity to keep and study an animal.

I know it can be hard to police, but I believe that a blanket ban is a bad idea.....people will still keep these species, but the trade becomes illicit, and therefore more dangerous.

[Stefan-A]

Restrictions, even when well thought out, are usually impossible to enforce. In the end the methods used to control become completely arbitrary and that defeats the purpose of having any kind of restriction. In my not-so-humble opinion. For example, how do you define such a thing as "reasonable precautions"? The authorities lack the expertise to make that kind of decision and reptile hobbyists are the ones that are supposed to be controlled. Who makes that decision?

The mere fact that animals reproduce makes them impossible to control or limit. Needless to say, I'm against restrictions in most matters, I think they punish honesty and reward dishonesty.

[Snaky]

In Belgium (actually the Flemmish part of Belgium) we have a lot of restrictions. And this means a lot of interpretation.

It's forbidden to have a venomous snake, unless you have a certain permit ( not gettable in most cities, because you'd have to match a lot of conditions and eventually the persons around you and the city itself decides if you get it ). But what is a venomous snake? There is no exhaustive list anywhere. Well, let's take for example a garter snake :) . So in 1 city a garter is a venomous snake in the other it isn't. Everybody will probably laugh about this, but it just an interpretation like another. Everybody knows that you can have a reaction if a garter chews on your hand for too long ( I don't know exactly what/how unless I look it up, but it does not really matter here ). That is enough to say that they are venomous for some cities.

You can believe the discussion here about poisson dart frogs:D

[drache]

Rhea,

I'd just call your regional DNR office and ask your question directly. Maybe they'll refer you to a website, but it sure beats trying to navigate through the endless sea of links ;). Try this page for phone numbers:

Regional Offices (http://www.dec.state.ny.us/website/about/abtrull3.html)

Rick

Thanks Rick
Good lead
After a mere two calls, it actually got me the voicemail of the agency that supposedly has the answers. They haven't returned my call yet.
The question I have is of course this: if it is so difficult for me (really trying) to find out which animals are legal, why should someone bother who has no clue that there even are laws.
There were tons of boids and monitors for sale at the expo and frankly, most of the vendors don't really know the laws either. I'm sure they don't get asked much either. Who the hell is gonna know whether I got a ball python at home, unless there is a complaint. Oops, gearing up to rant again - sorry.

[GarterGuy]

Yeh, we just had the direrctor of the Fish and Boat commission (who regs. herps in PA) speak at my herp club last week going over the changes to the regs. that went into affect this year. A lot of it is good stuff and made to protect threatened species here, like the box turtle and timber rattlesnake. We (the herp keeping community in general and the herp club specifically) had a hand in what got done with the regs. If you love the hobby and the critters, make sure that you're heard. They said that when they were working on the regs. they had no idea the number of people there were in the herp keeping community...they actually got over 1.5K letters sent to them about the upcoming changes.
Some of the changes that really affected stuff was that you can only have 1 native herp in your possession and if you had more last year, you need to get permits to have those additional animals. They also did some clarafication on "native" animals to not affect different colour morphs and subspecies that are not from the state. Only bad thing is, if it is a colour morph of a subspecies or species from PA, it must be a captive bred animals. Example, you couldn't have an albino eastern gartersnake (T.s.sirtalis) unless you had paper work saying it came from a breeder. Also, you can't buy Fla. blue easterns either, unless they're captive bred (I actually asked him that question, since I was possibly looking to get some). Like Rhea said, it's really hard for them to regulate this stuff (they're not going house to house looking for herps), but they did say if they "hear" of someone who has a large collection of herps, they may come a knocking. Me, I'll follow the regs. and make sure I can legally keep all my critters.
Roy

[Cazador]

The question I have is of course this: if it is so difficult for me (really trying) to find out which animals are legal, why should someone bother who has no clue that there even are laws.
Who the hell is gonna know whether I got a ball python at home, unless there is a complaint. Oops, gearing up to rant again - sorry.

It's good that you're raising your concerns to them, Rhea. It shows that they need to make the regulations more accessible so that honest, law abiding citizens don't accidentally break the law because they're "unable" to determine what the law is.

On another note, I'd add that overly restrictive laws (and laws that can't be found) actually encourage people to "break" the law. For example, laws that require you to report, pay extra for keeping certain kinds of pets, and grant inspectors access into your home tend to encourage people not to report these species. I mean, who would want to allow a stranger to enter your home and tell you how you should live?

Rick

[drache]

On another note, I'd add that overly restrictive laws (and laws that can't be found) actually encourage people to "break" the law. For example, laws that require you to report, pay extra for keeping certain kinds of pets, and grant inspectors access into your home tend to encourage people not to report these species. I mean, who would want to allow a stranger to enter your home and tell you how you should live?

Rick

there is something rather big-brotherish about that image
and I'm a proponent of the idea that education is more effective than legislation

btw
in the case of NY the agency must be quite understaffed
they haven't managed to return my call yet
so I don't imagine raiding people's houses is high on their to-do list
next time I see a beat cop by the subway station, I'll ask what she knows about these laws - very curious about that one
see, the entire list of what I believe to be restricted animals in NY is essentially hearsay
also I do think, whether a particular animal lands on the list is most often determined by persons least knowledgeable about that species

[Volksdragon]

Somewhat related to this topic, I just found out that it's Illegal for pet stores in Ohio to sell Garter Snakes, as they're a native species and it's apparently illegal to sell a native species in Ohio. Don't know what other states this is true for.

[stonyloam]

Hay Rhea: This site might help you and other New Yorkers out: it is the Western New York Herpetological Society New York State's Native Reptiles - WNYHS (http://www.wnyherp.org/reptile-laws/new-york-reptiles.php)

[drache]

Hay Rhea: This site might help you and other New Yorkers out: it is the Western New York Herpetological Society New York State's Native Reptiles - WNYHS (http://www.wnyherp.org/reptile-laws/new-york-reptiles.php)

Yessss11111
that site has the info
it's just a simple and specific list, something one couldn't expect the government to come up with
thanks

[KITKAT]

Somewhat related to this topic, I just found out that it's Illegal for pet stores in Ohio to sell Garter Snakes, as they're a native species and it's apparently illegal to sell a native species in Ohio. Don't know what other states this is true for.

Not quite... it is more complicated than that.

1. You (or a pet store) may not sell a WC native in Ohio. "Native" is defined by a list provided by DNR.

2. You may posess for breeding, FOUR natives in Ohio... WITH a license. Current license fee is $45 and allows DNR inspection upon demand. The license also requires that you keep the official DNR provided record book, which records all acquisitions, sales, deaths, escapes, other losses, addresses and names of all buyers. This book may be inspected by DNR on demand.

I happen to know that PETCO has purchased a license for all of their stores in the state. I assume the central office must be keeping the record book. I also suspect Jack's Aquarium has done the same, based on talks with one manager.

3. You may posess for a pet, ONE native in Ohio... WITH a license. Current pet license fee is $10. I am unclear about inspection.

4. You may sell CB (captive BRED, not captive BORN) natives in Ohio... with the same license in #2 above.

5. You may posess an unlimited number of CB natives in Ohio with the breeding license in #2 above.

6. Captive Born reptiles are not covered in the language of the regulation.

Here is the website with ALL of the particulars:

Ohio's Reptiles: Lizards, Snakes & Turtles (http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/wildlife/Resources/reptiles/reptiles.htm)

All in all, it is not a totally bad law... but... their definition of "native" is rather annoying and overbearing, IMHO.

[garterman07]

as well if that goes any further why is it going to stop at reptiles....its going to go to invertabrates

a couple of my tarantulas and spiders are far more venomous than most snakes. and as it is i already had a pretty good scare with my rose now that it became an endangered spieces i have to make sure every thing is in perfect order or the feds take my little 8 legged friend that i have had for 8 years.