No garters...

[Kali]

Hi there,
Like the title says, no garters here.
A member of another forum advised me to come here, as you guys seem to be the ones that can help me.
Yesterday I collected a snake from the garage of a friends (completely freaked out) mother. Apparantly it's probably some kind of Natrix, maybe Natrix maura.

It's not legal to keep certain Natrix species, so I'd like to find out which one I have here.

Is it allowed to post a pic for you guys to take a look at? And if so, where? Is The lounge the place for that or should I just do it here?

Thanks in advance.

[Stefan-A]

Welcome aboard. :)

Go ahead and post the picture. You can either post it here in this thread, or some suitable thread in the Lounge. Or if you can't find one, start a new thread there. The Garter Snake Lounge - Garter Snake Forum (http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/garter-snake-lounge/)

[infernalis]

http://www.thamfriends.com/mat.jpg

I'm sure no one would mind if you just post your photograph in this thread.:cool:

[guidofatherof5]

Nice to have you on the forum.
Looking forward to seeing this snake.

[Kali]

Ok thanx. :) Here goes then.
So like I said, found in a garage. When I got there, and looked at it closely, it started hissing enormously. I have corns, kings, milks and hognoses, none of them hiss like that :D
But he didn't try to tag me at all, just wanted me to go away.

The first two pics are without flash, but with indoor lighting (was dark outside when I got home with him), the third is with flash, and I think that one gets the closest to his actual color.
He seems to have some bumps and bruises and a few damaged scales, but they don't seem to bother him much. I'm keeping a close eye on him just in case.

The only Natrix in Belgium is Natrix natrix, and to my (very) untrained eye this doesn't seem one of them. The head is different no? In any case, he would be very far out of his range and habitat where I found him.
Somebody suggested Natrix maura (viperine snake).

I hope you can help me here. If I know what he is, and it's not illegal, I might just keep him :D

[Stefan-A]

It looks more like Natrix tessellata to me. I'm certain that it is one.

Unfortunately I don't have the appropriate literature with me at the moment, but you should have at least two Natrix species in Belgium. It's difficult to find reliable distribution maps for European snakes.

[Charis]

Hi Kali! Welcome! This is Tavia on CS.com

[Kali]

Ah Stefan, again proof of how little I know about this :)

Hi there Tavia! Thanks for the tip!

[guidofatherof5]

Beautiful snake.

[drache]

welcome to the forum, and congrats on your lovely find

[Kali]

Thanks he sure is nice.
I'm just hoping I'll be allowed to keep him, but I'm starting to doubt it.
More restrictions here on keeping european snakes than in neighbouring countries unfortunately.
But we'll see, I'll find out.

[gregmonsta]

Greetings :D

[Odie]

Hi, from Oregon, Kali :)

[DIRK]

It looks more like Natrix tessellata to me. I'm certain that it is one.

Unfortunately I don't have the appropriate literature with me at the moment, but you should have at least two Natrix species in Belgium. It's difficult to find reliable distribution maps for European snakes.


Yes, that isn´t Natrix natrix, this is natrix tesselata

[Kali]

Thanks very much everybody.
At least now I know what I'm dealing with. :)

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Natrix teselatta! I haVe two of them!

[Stefan-A]

According to Reptiles and Amphibians of Europe, there should be a small satellite population in western Germany, not far from the Belgian border, but like I said, it's difficult to find reliable distribution maps. I wouldn't rule out the possibility that your snake is a stowaway from a region where they occur naturally. It could also be an escaped pet, but that's the least likely option in my opinion.

[Kali]

You mean stowaway like crawled in somebodys trunk or something?
Where I found the poor critter, was in Antwerp, houses all around, no water area's in sight... yet he is not thin or anything. Thats why I thought he must have escaped a viv somewhere...

[Stefan-A]

You mean stowaway like crawled in somebodys trunk or something?
Or crawled into a cargo pallet or a container, yes. There's no telling when it had arrived and it wouldn't look skinny for a long time even without food. If this snake was found in Antwerp, it has probably had a bit of help getting there. It may well be somebody's pet, but I still find that a bit less likely, than it being a stowaway.

[Kali]

Ok thanks :)

[Stefan-A]

I still want to emphasize that reliable distribution maps are damn difficult to find and that there are sources that mention Belgium as being part of N. tessellata's range.

[Kali]

Could very well be. Anyway I found out N. tesselata is on the Cites law and is protected, so can't keep him :( (if only it had been maura, then it would have been ok)
So I'll be bringing him to a rescue center, they'll know what steps have to be taken with him.

[Stefan-A]

Are you sure it's CITES listed? I can't find it in any of the appendices.

[Kali]

Well I admit I just supposed. I found on a Dutch website that there you can't keep them. It's mentioned in the BUDEP (not completely sure what that is :)) as a species you're normally not allowed to keep (unless special approval), this because of CITES.
The law in the Netherlands and in Belgium is different concerning snakes, but CITES is the same, so I concluded the rest. Was I wrong?

Anyway I'll go and ask my curator (work in a zoo), he should have the nessecary sources to be sure about this.

[Kali]

Hi there,
I got this sweet email today wishing me a happy birthday from the garter snake forum. And I remembered I never updated this thread.

Apparantly I am allowed to keep a tesselate! Yay!
Laws here are so confusing and not always logical. I was told that in this part of Belgium, the only Natrix I cannot keep is Natrix natrix. It might be different in the southern part, as they have other laws. (For as small as we are, we are a federal state...)
The official range of tesselata might cross the borders here and there, but it's not considered to be a local species so there you go.

He has been eating very well. Live fish at first, dead fish after that, and this week he ate a fish scented fuzzy mouse. I heard that mice are a good food for them too, is that correct? It would be easier for me, as I breed my own mice for the other snakes, but if he needs stuff that's in fish and not in mice, I'll have to keep providing him fish of course. Just want to make sure here that I'm treating my little guy well here :)
Thanks for any answers!

[Charis]

That is one question you are likely to get different answers to. Some people do feed only mice and say they have more nutrition than just fish. Other people argue that garters naturally eat a more varied diet than other snakes and should be given a variety. I'm sure there is merit in both sides of the debate. So it's up to you to decide how much of what to feed, that and whatever the snake will eat, some of them can be picky.

[Stefan-A]

He has been eating very well. Live fish at first, dead fish after that, and this week he ate a fish scented fuzzy mouse. I heard that mice are a good food for them too, is that correct? It would be easier for me, as I breed my own mice for the other snakes, but if he needs stuff that's in fish and not in mice, I'll have to keep providing him fish of course. Just want to make sure here that I'm treating my little guy well here :)
Thanks for any answers!
I'd stick to (frozen/thawed) fish, but that's just how I would do it. I am suspicious when it comes to feeding animals things that they wouldn't normally eat. Natrix natrix would be a bit different, because rodents do make up a part of their diet, but N. tessellata and N. maura are primarily and almost exclusively fish eaters.

[Kali]

And if I feed him F/T fish, do I have to add a vitamin supplement? I heard that with frozen fish, some of the vitamins break down.

[Stefan-A]

It doesn't have much of an impact, but it doesn't hurt to use supplements.

[ConcinusMan]

But overuse (overdose) of some vitamins does cause harm. In some cases, overdose is more harmful than a mild deficiency. Supplements really aren't necessary if your snake takes a varied diet including whole fish and/or rodents.