New to garters, not so new to snakes. Hi there!

[Floof]

Hello! My name is Taylor. I'm 18, a resident of northern Utah, and, of course, a reptile lover.

I've been keeping snakes (mostly corn snakes) for about 3 years now. Right now, I have a modest "collection" of three bearded dragons, a Corn snake, and a San Diego gopher snake.

I've always been fascinated by garter snakes, but have never kept one, in large part because of the whole fish/slugs/earthworms thing (frozen mice are just so much easier), but have decided now that I am definitely going to get a garter snake (or two). Probably not until next October, when the local expo comes around again, but it's never too soon to start researching, right? Which is why I'm here! :)

While I'm posting, I have one question. Can someone clear up the cohabitation issue concerning garters?? I know it's a big no-no with other snake species, for reasons ranging from disease transfer to cannibalism to the big one, STRESS, but it seems cohabbing is an accepted and even common practice in Garters. What makes them different?

I don't plan on cohabbing garters, due to my established beliefs concerning the same with other snake species, but I want to understand exactly why such a normally taboo practice is so widely accepted with just this one genus... So can anyone clear this up for me?

Thanks, and I look forward to learning all I can from the great, knowledgeable Garter keepers this forum has to offer!

[Stefan-A]

Welcome aboard.

Regarding the diet, mice can be included in it. Some even feed them that exclusively, although I'm not convinced that is a good idea.

Cohabitation depends on the species of garter snake. There are a few species that have had recorded instances of genuine ophiophagy and I personally have had two attempts at it. Feeding accidents are not uncommon and some of them do lead to the death of one or both of the snakes. The obvious recommendation is also to avoid housing snakes of disparate size together.

Stress doesn't seem to a big issue with garters, unless you're mixing sexes. There's some basis for the claim that non-garters can't be cohabitated, but it's not as simple as saying that they can't be cohabited and garters can. Natural population densities among garters are some of the highest in the snake world, which makes them quite well adapted to cohabitation. Sexes probably shouldn't be mixed unnecessarily, because contant courtship by the male can be a source of stress for the female. Among some snakes, there is male combat over females, but not garters. In the wild, any stressed animal can leave the situation on its own, but not in enclosures.

Having said that, there is no real need to cohabitate garters.

[guidofatherof5]

Welcome to the forum from the T.radix Ranch in Iowa, Taylor.

It sounds like your future garter snakes are going to have a good caregiver.

[Mommy2many]

Welcome to the forum! Good luck with your research. You've come to the right place!

[Selkielass]

Welcome!

[Floof]

Thanks for the warm welcome, everyone!

And thank you, Stefan, for the explanation! So, to clarify, the reasoning is that cohabbing doesn't cause the same excessive stress, and that garters are more well equipped for communal living?

Also, thanks for the diet information; I was aware they could be fed mice (if you can get them eating them; might be difficult when the options are either WC or neonate too small to take a pinky...), but not aware that a diet of strictly mice may not necessarily be totally healthy for them. I'll have to get some silversides for the freezer when I get my garter(s), then!

[Stefan-A]

And thank you, Stefan, for the explanation! So, to clarify, the reasoning is that cohabbing doesn't cause the same excessive stress, and that garters are more well equipped for communal living?
That's the gist of it, yes.

[ssssnakeluvr]

welcome to the forum!!! I live in Magna and have a number of baby garters left over from the expo available.... :D

[Charis]

Hello & welcome from Idaho! Don does have some great looking babies! If I had just a little more space, one or two might have come home from this last WRE. ~ Charis, A.K.A Tavia on CS.com

[infernalis]

http://www.thamfriends.com/mat.jpg

[gregmonsta]

Greetings :D

[Odie]

Hi, from Oregon, Taylor :)

[Floof]

Don-- So that was you at the expo! You have some GORGEOUS snakes. You're my first stop at next year's expo, for sure. Can't get anymore snakes for now, though!

Charis/Tavia-- Hey, I know you! Great to see another CS.com'er here! :D

[ssssnakeluvr]

Thanks!! the Pugets were the biggest thing at the expo!! everyone loved them! could have sold 50 babies the first day! come on by me table next year!! will have a bunch! if you want some babies later this year or so, send me a pm....have a nice group left over, can make you a great deal!

[Floof]

Thanks!! the Pugets were the biggest thing at the expo!! everyone loved them! could have sold 50 babies the first day! come on by me table next year!! will have a bunch! if you want some babies later this year or so, send me a pm....have a nice group left over, can make you a great deal!

Haha! Understandably so--they were absolutely stunning!!! So were those Oregon Red Spotteds (my fave)... Can you say drool! And, will do! The moment I come up with money, space, and a way to convince the housemates to agree to more snakes, you'll be the first to know... lol!

[drache]

welcome to the forum
a little more about the co-hab issue
I do have a couple of garters that seem to do better in the company of others. I am thinking of one in particular who will strike at any movement outside the tank when housed alone, yet is mellow and to all appearances relaxed when housed in a group.
I believe that often in the wild, smaller animals that tend to be popular prey, also tend to feel safer in numbers, and that this could also be true for garters

[mustang]

welcome

[Floof]

Hello, Robert and Rhea! Thanks for the welcome!


welcome to the forum
a little more about the co-hab issue
I do have a couple of garters that seem to do better in the company of others. I am thinking of one in particular who will strike at any movement outside the tank when housed alone, yet is mellow and to all appearances relaxed when housed in a group.
I believe that often in the wild, smaller animals that tend to be popular prey, also tend to feel safer in numbers, and that this could also be true for garters

Interesting observation.. I was thinking last night that perhaps a baby garter would eat better when fed along side others (monkey see, monkey do), but the "strength in numbers" idea never crossed my mind. It's certainly interesting to think about.

I will never be remotely convinced that co-habbing is okay with non-Thamnophis snake species... But these "communal" garters have me changing my opinion about cohabbing Thamnophis already. lol. In any case, I guess I can't truly understand any of this until I've owned my own garters. So, we'll see what it comes to...

[radtad]

welcome to the group

[HazAnga]

Some may think I'm dumb... but because of housing issues I had. My male checkered and a female okeetee corn together in a 36"x18"x 18" tank for several months before then introducing 2 albino checkered females. Only till shortly after adding the albinos did I notice the corn seemed stressed and at that time seperated her. Took her a month to git her back to her old self but now have a male for her.
I had no problems with them (same size) untill I added the other 2 females. So that's my experience.

[Floof]

Some may think I'm dumb... but because of housing issues I had. My male checkered and a female okeetee corn together in a 36"x18"x 18" tank for several months before then introducing 2 albino checkered females. Only till shortly after adding the albinos did I notice the corn seemed stressed and at that time seperated her. Took her a month to git her back to her old self but now have a male for her.
I had no problems with them (same size) untill I added the other 2 females. So that's my experience.

I wouldn't be in the least surprised if the corn was stressed the entire time she was housed with the male checkered, and you only noticed when that stress was compounded hugely with the sudden addition of two more snakes (more "competition," in the corn's psyche).

My reason for saying this is snakes don't show their illness, stress, etc until it's a serious problem. If they showed these weaknesses when they first came up in the wild, they'd end up food in no time.. So they've evolved to hide them. In other words, the corn hid its stress from you (and any predators) until the addition of two more snakes had her... Well, the best way I can describe it would be panicking; imagine a human hyperventilating. A nervous breakdown would be the human equivalent of what point the corn was at by the time she was stressed enough to show it.

If you have her housed with the male corn, I bet she's still stressed... Probably even more so, since this is a male that will actually, actively breed with her (as opposed to a garter that wouldn't be interested), which presents another issue with cohabbing that exists in ALL animals (even communal species)--breeding too young, or too often. If she isn't large enough, breeding can potentially kill her through egg binding, and, if she's not in good shape, can take so much out of her (vitamins and nutrition) that she becomes emaciated (as well as being another egg-binding risk).

Really, corn snakes aren't made for cohabbing. They aren't communal in any way shape or form. They don't brumate together. They only come together for breeding, then they leave each other. The mothers lay their eggs and leave; they don't have anything to do with their offspring. Once the babies hatch and leave the nest, they avoid each other until they're ready to breed.

My point is, you should move the female into her own enclosure for her own good. Though cohabbing may work for your garters, it won't work for your corns. Even if you can't see the stress, it's there. Separate them. If you don't have room for another enclosure, or have some other reason you can't separate them, then get rid of one of them... Just get the female by herself before something horrible happens and it's too late.

One of my favorite quotes from the corn snake forum, concerning cohabbing: "It's not a problem until it's a BIG problem." And big problem, in this case, usually means life-threatening... Cannibalism, egg-binding, stress to the point of food refusal or chronic regurgitation... Etc, etc.

Sorry for the novel, but I really couldn't let it go. In the end, the decision is up to you, but I really hope you decide to separate the corns. It's in their best interest, even if you can't see the stress (yet).

On that note, do you have any pics? I love good quality Okeetee corns. Absolutely stunning animals.

[HazAnga]

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