Dried out scales on back?

[MlizGr]

I'm not sure what's going on with St. George, but I noticed 3 scales that looked all dried out on his back a couple of days ago. It hasn't grown, hasn't changed, and I'm really not sure what it is. Has anyone else seen this before?

Also, his belly scales seem to be cracking some, which has me concerned. It's almost as though he's got two layers of scales on his belly, and the top one is cracking off. Is this signs of a previous shedding gone wrong? I tried to let him soak in a bath for half an hour and seeing if they got loose, but there really didn't seem to be any change.

[guidofatherof5]

May I suggest a stay in a warm, humid shed box, followed by running warm water.
If there's a retained shed it should come off.;)

[MlizGr]

Hm. I've never designed a shed box. All I'm looking for is warm and humid? I think I can manage that. How long should he stay in there before the warm water?

[guidofatherof5]

Hm. I've never designed a shed box. All I'm looking for is warm and humid? I think I can manage that. How long should he stay in there before the warm water?

If you use a warm wet towel I would wait until the towel gets cold. I even warm them up a second time.
Many times the warm water spray isn't even necessary after the shed box.
This should let you know if it is a retained shed.
Best of luck.

[MlizGr]

I'm guessing it's not a retained shed, though I must say, St. George handled being in the bucket with damp paper towels floating in warm water very well. I'd shredded the paper towels and he'd been digging through them. Might have to try that with dry paper towels in his tank later.

Anyhow, I uploaded a photo to try and show what's going on. The black circle is an attempt at showing the 'cracking' of the top of the scales, which seem almost to be a crease in the scale? The red circle is where one of the scales had mostly peeled away to show the underpart of the scale, and is now black and slightly wrinkled, similar to the scales on the back. I don't think it's scale rot, but since I've never seen what that looks like in person I can't be completely sure....

Garter Snake Gallery - Help? (http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/showphoto.php?photo=8622&cat=500)

[guidofatherof5]

It's very hard to see what's going on with that photo.
Did anything come off using the shed box?

[Tyrel26]

I may be crazy (ok I am crazy) but that looks more like a snake belly than a back...lol

[MlizGr]

Yes, that is the belly. That's where the bent looking scales are and he now seems to have one of the same, wrinkled black scales there. And sorry for the quality of the photo. My nice camera broke a couple years ago and I haven't got the money to buy a new one yet. Nothing came off after the shed box.

It doesn't look like mold, doesn't seem to smell like rot should or anything... They just look kinda like leaves that have shriveled up from lack of water, only they're black. The only new one is the one on his belly, where one of the cracked ones had peeled a couple days ago. Could it just be he's lost the top part of the scale and what I'm seeing is the dried up underscale or something? Do I want to treat it somehow just in case or should I wait and see how he handles a shedding first?

[ConcinusMan]

Actually, what you're describing sounds like scale rot. The cause is the snake being in contact with constantly damp and/or dirty substrate and a subsequent bacterial infection. Think clean and dry when it comes to whatever the snake is sitting on. Keep the substrate dry and clean. Scale rot tends to make scales "shrivel up" giving them a shrunken dryed-out look. I suggest you sanitize the entire enclosure, hopefully it is a non-porous enclosure. If not, then get rid of it and get one that is non-porous, keep the snake on dry paper towels and change daily, and treat the snake for the infection. A weak iodine solution works pretty well for skin infections.

Here's an example:

http://img1.photobucket.com/albums/0903/SerpentLust/PIC00001.jpg



What is Scale Rot? (http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-scale-rot.htm)

[MlizGr]

Well darn. I was sure that the paper towels being changed every time he pooed and a weekly cleaning of the tank would be enough to prevent that... Ah well, off to look up how to treat scale rot then.

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah, well I'm not saying it is scale rot I'm just saying it sounds like it. Also, it's possible that the bacteria infected the snake before you got it and so the cause may not be your husbandry or the enclosure. Once the infection gets a foothold, correcting the damp or dirty conditions isn't enough. You need to kill the infection on the snake too. And, sanitize the enclosure often, until you are sure it's gone. The affected scales may or may not return to their original state. Likely some scarring or disfigured scales will remain but they should improve and not spread.

If it is scale rot, it doesn't look serious at this point. Catch it early, treat it, and the prognosis is good.

[MlizGr]

Mmm. I suppose that's possible. Yay for catching it early though! I'd hate to have my first snake keeping experience end horridly...

[ConcinusMan]

Your attention to this small detail and spotting this as a potential problem suggests to me that you are a fine snake keeper. Keep it up, and learn more as you go and I'm sure you'll have many years to come with healthy snakes in your care.

Yeah, I would sterilize the enclosure. Extremely weak bleach solution left in contact for 15 minutes, or perhaps hydrogen peroxide, then a thorough rinse will kill any bacteria on the surfaces.

As far as the snake goes, a few drops of iodine in warm water.(just enough to give the water a little bit of color) submerge the snake's body in the solution for couple of minutes at least twice a week. Be extremely careful not to get this solution in the snakes nose or mouth (keep the head out) because it is poison if ingested, snorted, inhaled, whatever. But it is very effective against just about any kind of skin infection. Rinse thoroughly, dry the snake, then put back in sterile enclosure. A few weeks or perhaps a month of this, should halt this and put an end to the infection.

It does look like this is just barely getting started. Shouldn't be too difficult to "nip this in the bud" and prevent it from spreading.

Oh, and it doesn't necessarily have to be damp substrate. The bacteria can thrive under those belly scales with other moisture other than high humidity. Can't hurt to remove the water dish and only offer water for a few hours every day while treating this.

I know it sounds strange given garter snakes habits of being somewhat aquatic and spending time in or near water, but it's extremely important in captivity to keep the substrate dry and humidity levels moderate.;)

[Tyrel26]

I had a snake once that took on that dried leaf look to a few scales, they even felt dry and crispy; I have also seen this on wild snakes. After she shed the scales were back to normal and they never took on that appearance again.
When was the last time this snake shed? If you think it will shed soon you may want to hold off on any treatments until after the shed to see if its just damaged scales rather than something more serious.

[ConcinusMan]

Not bad advice. Like I said, I can't really tell from the pic and we're not sure at this point if it actually is scale rot. Could be nothing.

[Tyrel26]

Well in my case it just seem to be damaged scales that were fine after a shed, however if after a shed the problem is still present (assuming it isn't retained skin) you will want to follow the steps richard listed.

Any potentially harmful treatment should always be a last resort or only used when you are certain its necessary.

Could you possible burrow a camera to get some pics? If not, are the scales in question crispy or soft or moist or some combo of those?

[MlizGr]

I've only had him a little over a week, so no idea when his last shed was. He doesn't seem to have any cloudiness to his eyes though, so I don't think he's getting close to a shed. I took out his large soaking water dish and gave him a much smaller one for the time being after cleaning out his tank. In terms of feeling, the scales feel pretty much like his others, perhaps a touch softer? They also feel lower than the other scales when I run my thumb along his back.

On another forum someone said their vet suggested using melafix for minor cases of scale rot. It's a naturalistic antibacterial medicine that's used for fish with fin rot and the like. I'll probably use that for his bath until I'm completely sure what he has, since it is antibacterial, but shouldn't be dangerous. I'll be careful to keep his head out of it anyway, just in case.

[ConcinusMan]

Any potentially harmful treatment should always be a last resort or only used when you are certain its necessary.


That is also good advice. Actually the iodine thing was suggested because it's good for killing any skin infection even if it's not your typical bacterial scale rot. Also, as long as it is used on the skin only, and not ingested (rinse thoroughly) it is perfectly harmless.

The medicine for fin rot, or whatever it was called might not be affective whereas the iodine is all but guaranteed to work.

But hey, you haven't had the snake very long at all. Is this WC or did it come from someone else.. from captivity?

The reason I ask is because if it is WC there's a good chance it's just an old injury. If it's from captivity then it's more likely to be early stage scale rot. It's pretty common for people to make that mistake with garters - the mistake of keeping too large a water dish, or not keeping the enclosure dry enough. I'm not immune. I did make that mistake early on as a teenager and had some northwesterns develop a nasty case of blister disease. That species seems particularly prone to it.

Luckily, correcting the conditions and treating with iodine worked and they healed up nicely.:D

[MlizGr]

He's WC. I suppose older injuries do make sense. He's lucky he didn't get run over by the car that came by right after I scooped him up. Don't know what the silly snake was thinking, sunning out in the middle of the road.

[ConcinusMan]

Really. Silly snake.:rolleyes:

But seriously, I don't think snakes are so aware that they know it's a dangerous road. To them it's just a warm flat rock.;)

This is most likely just an old injury. I wouldn't worry about it. Just keep an eye on it. If nothing changes, then nothing needs to be done.

[MlizGr]

Alrighty. Though I'm still gunna be paranoid... I'm leaving for nearly a month next week, and while dad's agreed to keep an eye on him and I'm using the time to get him ready to burmiate so that his life is as normal as possible, I'm nervous about leaving him. But, I doubt he'd enjoy traveling to chicago with me as much as my dog will. So, minor antibacterial for this week, just in case and to give him an extra boost before I do leave.

Also, why do they always poo as soon as you clean their tank?! Not even a couple hours after I finish, almost every time I do it! GAH!

[guidofatherof5]

Also, why do they always poo as soon as you clean their tank?! Not even a couple hours after I finish, almost every time I do it! GAH!

That's just their way of saying thanks for all your hard work.:D

I think they are just trying to make it more their place. Scent marking if you will.
Of course, I have know proof that is what's going on. It just seem logical.

[MlizGr]

Well it doesn't do them any good. I just take the paper towel out, wipe down the spot, and put in new stuff. Annoying little thing. Hoping he'll get over that pretty quick.

[guidofatherof5]

Hoping he'll get over that pretty quick.

I wouldn't count on it.:rolleyes:
He knows how to pull your chain. :D

[kibakiba]

Mama had a problem like this a few months back, she was really old and raggedy looking when I got her. I figured she'd be fine after she shed (went opaque a day after I caught her) and she was fine. She has little bent belly scales and some scales that looked slightly ripped but with every shed she looks better and better. I wouldn't worry yourself sick, St. George should be fine. :) And They all love pooping on things you clean, like Steve said, they do it as a way to thank you ;)

[MlizGr]

Yeah.. I'm really greatful for the thanks.. Honestly. /sarcasm

[kibakiba]

Well they could be completely ungrateful... hiss, bite and musk you as a way of sarcastically thanking you for catching and locking them up in a little tank. ;)

[ConcinusMan]

That's just their way of saying thanks for all your hard work.:D

I think they are just trying to make it more their place. Scent marking if you will.
Of course, I have know proof that is what's going on. It just seem logical.

Another possibility is all the moving around. I mean, my big girls a pretty lazy. They'll just lounge around and bask all day, hardly moving from their favorite spot. (cardboard tube near the basking lamp) but if I take them outside for a little sun and exercise, they'll zip around the lawn for a minute or two, pause and then, you guessed it - Leave a present.

Obviously when you clean the tank, the snakes have to move. This might just be what stimulates them to "leave a present":confused:

[MlizGr]

Gah, I can't imagine taking St. George out ito the grass. When we go outside he's not allowed out of my hands. He's just too fast! If he took off I'm not sure I'd be able to catch him.

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah I can understand that but I have a huge, short lawn area and yes, my snakes move incredibly fast but not as fast as I am to cut them off from getting away. After a few minutes of trying, they get a bit pooped and start to settle down.

Simply handling them and allowing them to use your hands as a "treadmill" let's them get exercise too, so that will work. I just don't want my snakes getting too lazy and letting their muscle tone go to mush. That's particularly important if you're talking about big females that recently gave birth, or snakes you plan to breed.

[mustang]

I wouldn't count on it.:rolleyes:
He knows how to pull your chain. :D
YA checker does the same to me (the poopin thing)