Another snake den being destroyed

[ConcinusMan]

I just got back from a Dr. appt and on the way home I noticed huge piles of earth and bulldozers parked not far from my house, which just happens to be the nearest place to find NW garter snakes. It's an abandoned small aircraft airport on the edge of a wooded area. It looks like they just got started but there's still plenty of the area still intact but it won't be for long. Typically this time of year, masses of NW garters can be seen gathering and breeding just feet from where the bulldozers are parked. The entire area will be destroyed and replaced by a commercial development. There is no place nearby for the garters to go this winter because the area is surrounded by old and new development (buildings, parking lots, streets)

Earlier this year I found this handsome T. ordinoides at that location along with a few others:

http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/7/gedc1487.jpg

I'm off work today and it's sunny and about 62 F. I'm going out the door right now to see how many I can save. The question is, would it do more harm than good, to relocate the snakes to a different population? or should I adopt out any I manage to save from the bulldozers? There's not a lot I can do to save the population but if I can save a few I think it's worth a try. Wish me luck. I'll report back soon.

[guidofatherof5]

Best of luck. The T.radix Ranch is open for any adoptions.

And they call it progress.:mad:

[Stefan-A]

The question is, would it do more harm than good, to relocate the snakes to a different population?
What would the intent be behind a relocation? What would the payoff be? Even if this population is doomed (that is still uncertain, by the way), the right thing to do, is to leave other populations alone. Unless it's a severely isolated population and already displaying signs of severe inbreeding, introduction of new individuals can really only do harm (depletion of resources, spread of pathogens etc.) and just it's not just worth the risk. When in doubt, non-intervention is the safest option.


or should I adopt out any I manage to save from the bulldozers? There's not a lot I can do to save the population but if I can save a few I think it's worth a try.I don't suggest doing more than getting those individuals in immediate danger out of the way.

[zirliz]

Those poor snakes :(
I'd recommend just moving those in immediate danger

[indigoman]

Let me know if there is anything i could do to help.

[tennfan56]

How did it go?

[ConcinusMan]

I just got back. I did find 8 garters. 3 of them are babies. I found two gorgeous male orange stripers too.

The entire population is in immediate danger. The bulldozers were hard at work as I was collecting snakes. As I was saying before, I've already seen the plans for that property. It will be a commercial center and parking, leaving no empty space. There will be no habitat left and there is no adjacent habitat for them to flee to.

Evergreen airport is the location:

Abandoned & Little-Known Airfields: Southwestern Washington State (http://www.airfields-freeman.com/WA/Airfields_WA_SW.html)

Arial view of the area:

The green patch you see with the airplane symbol is the patch of land where the snakes are found. They are absent from the rest of the empty space. All of the empty space will be developed, including the green patch. All adjacent empty lots are unsuitable and already "for sale" or "for lease". Where would you suggest the snakes go? Immediate danger? I think so.

http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/880/airportn.jpg

I do agree that I shouldn't release them to another population but at the same time I saw an opportunity and felt compelled to do something.

Now, I have 8 northwestern garters that I'm sure would have been dead by years end and certainly wouldn't have any suitable place to live next spring.

I don't want to keep them or release them. Anyone willing to pay shipping for freshly WC northwesterns can have them. Please make it fast if you want them. I don't have room and I'll be keeping them in shoebox tubs for the time being.

[MlizGr]

Poor things. If St. George wasn't the kind who would eat other snakes I'd take one or two of them in. Good luck finding them homes!

[ConcinusMan]

Here's a quick snapshot of the group I gathered from that location.

http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/2669/flicker015medium.jpg

I honestly don't understand Steve's magic powers of taking care of so many snakes but I won't question it. I'm sending him some snakes for sale and I'll be including this group of snakes in that shipment so all is well. They won't suffer the fate of the bulldozer and they won't have to struggle for survival in the cold, in the absence of their traditional winter home. I know it isn't much in the grand scheme but these 8 snakes will not be homeless this winter.

Well worth an hour of my time to go gather them.

Oh, BTW, that arial photo of the airport? The entire area within the picture's frame, which is now residential and commercial developments, was undeveloped forested and/or farmland as late as the early 1980's.:eek:

I mean, it was the "boonies". It was countryside with barns and livestock when I move here in 1977. It's now heavily urbanized and the main road went from a 2 lane country road, to one of the busiest traffic-congested 5-lane roads in the county. The only reason this empty space (and the pocket of snake habitat) exists now is because the airport didn't close until about 4 or 5 years ago.:cool:

[Selkielass]

Man, this group has been on my mind all night long- I'm glad they'll be finding refuge on the Ranch. Those two big orange stripes are very pretty- I wish I could say I'd take one in, but we really can't afford any more mouths to feed.

[infernalis]

Glad it's panning out.

[ConcinusMan]

Thinkin' 'bout keeping one of those orange stripe males.:rolleyes: They are very pretty. All of them are nice and calm and don't mind handling too.

I kinda like that white 3-stripe one too. Pretty cool.

At any rate, can't keep every cool looking snake I find. If I keep any, it will be just one.

[Stefan-A]

The entire population is in immediate danger.
Judging by the map, it seems to me that the population has been doomed for a long time now. Is it in immediate danger? No. Immediate would be when it's in danger of being eradicated within the next few seconds, minutes or hours.

Just out of curiosity, what are the methods by which ordinary citizens can influence land use over there?

[ConcinusMan]

Judging by the map, it seems to me that the population has been doomed for a long time now. Is it in immediate danger? No. Immediate would be when it's in danger of being eradicated within the next few seconds, minutes or hours. And days don't count I suppose? Like I said, the bulldozers were hard at work and I took a look this morning and they've made a lot of "progress" in destroying that small patch of habitat. From the looks of it, it will all be gone within a day or two. Anyway, why all the critisism? Just curious. I mean, what's wrong with I did? I think I saved those 8 snakes from certain doom so what's the problem?


Just out of curiosity, what are the methods by which ordinary citizens can influence land use over there?

Well, I can tell you that this entire situation with the airport closing was at least in part influenced by citizens. When the area was rural, having the airport there was no big deal. But the last few years it was open, businesses and residents had airplanes buzzing just feet overhead. And twice, airplanes crashed. Once into heavy traffic, and once into a commercial building. In the late 70's and early 80's airplanes crashed into trees and empty fields. Those are gone now and the only place for a plane to go down is into developed and populated areas.

I'm not saying that airplanes crash here all the time, or often, but the main reason for closing it was airplanes coming in to land, or take off, barely clearing power lines and buzzing right over people's homes.

For the most part however, I'd say we don't have any say in the matter. My house was just annexed to the city recently. Of course, I don't have any choice in the matter and now the city quotes to me what I can, and can't do on my property. Before, I could burn debris and park an RV on my lawn if I wished to. Can't do any of that anymore. RV's must be parked on "improved surfaces" and there's no burning in city limits.:cool:

Oh, and those [insert plural expletive here] fined me for cutting down one of trees in my own yard. Apparently, you need a permit in the city. Ridiculous.

[guidofatherof5]

If a citizen went before the City Council or other governing body with a request to halt construction because of Garter Snake habitat being lost or any other animal habitat being lost they would be laughed at.
Progress comes before them.
Noting that if it involved an endangered or Fed. protected species you may get them to look but only if it was substantiated buy a Government agency.

[ConcinusMan]

I got news for you. They wouldn't be laughed at, they would be ignored, which is pretty much what happens around here regardless of the reason for the request.

[tennfan56]

I really think what you are doing is great. In "immediate" danger or not, those snakes have no future in that area. And also if you save any more, I wouldn't mind taking a few in.

[ConcinusMan]

I'm going back then. It's not far and shouldn't take more than an hour or so. I'll see if I can find some more.

[Stefan-A]

And days don't count I suppose? Like I said, the bulldozers were hard at work and I took a look this morning and they've made a lot of "progress" in destroying that small patch of habitat. From the looks of it, it will all be gone within a day or two. Anyway, why all the critisism? Just curious. I mean, what's wrong with I did? I think I saved those 8 snakes from certain doom so what's the problem?
All the criticism? The main thing I've criticized, was the idea of relocating them to another population and you chose against doing it. By the way, population is a broad term, but I did mean a population that indeed has a significant level of reproductive isolation in relation to this population. That would mean a distance that is longer than a snake would migrate and drawing a limit at obstacles that they can't cross.

The main reason why I don't like the idea of catching animals "for their own good", is that it's very easy to do wildlife a disservice even with the best intentions. A second reason is that I have run into people, who use events like this as an excuse for catching animals, especially protected ones and keeping them as pets. I'm not suggesting that it's what you're doing here, but those who would do it, will without a doubt have a little lightbulb go off in their heads when they find out about this.

[ConcinusMan]

I understand then. I honestly don't think it would hurt a dang thing to move them a mile or two east to a more suitable habitat where other garters currently live relatively free of any immediate danger, however, there is a potential there to do the new population some kind of harm so no matter how slight that potential is, I'd rather adopt them out because there is no way for me to know if I did the new population any harm. It is my opinion, and I'm not the only one, (others have PM'd me) that all this talk of depleting resources and introducing pathogens is a bunch of garbage. Nothing personal toward you but I think I know the local snakes a bit better. You've never even seen one in the wild. If I were to move them, it would only be a mile or two east to a population that has only been separated in recent years by development. I also don't agree that the population was doomed simply because they are surrounded by development. They've been there, in that situation for more than decade and seem to be doing just fine on that patch of land. They have everything they need there to sustain a modest population. I've found small populations of this species in small empty lots in the middle of big cities surrounded by old development.

Also, I don't need a blasted excuse to collect a few NW garters. If I wanted to do that, I'd just do it. They are so dang common I could seriously collect a thousand of them and not even make a noticeable impact. Seriously. And in spite of the laws on paper, the State of WA doesn't give a darn one hoot if someone wants to scoop up a bunch of T. ordinoides and keep them as pets and certainly would give a hoot about me saving a few from this doomed location. They would have a problem if I was collecting hundreds or thousands of them and selling them off for profit but that is not the case here.

I think we can agree on two things here.

#1, those snakes would likely be dead or homeless within a few days, forced to cross streets and parking lots in search of cover. To make matters worse, it's nearly time to brumate. It's already beginning to freeze overnight in some areas and this morning was dang near at freezing when I got up. So, no dens or habitat, wandering around in hopes of shelter for winter is no place for a snake to be. Agreed?

#2 I could just let them die like so many others before and affect nothing. It probably wouldn't hurt a dang thing to let them die. The species is certainly under no threat of extinction. But it also won't hurt a dang thing to save a few and send them to caring keepers to live their lives in captivity. Agree?

Heck, I was going to go back today but we're having a very odd weather event. It went from dang near freezing this morning to hotter than heck very quickly, windy and extremely low humidity. Desert air is being funneled from the east side through the channel of the Columbia River Gorge. Bad time to find garters unfortunately. I do have the 8 of them. They are fine snakes and will make good pets. Just not for me. Lord knows I have enough snakes. I'm actually working on reducing the numbers a bit, at least for the near foreseeable future.

[kibakiba]

I would want one of those red striped ones, Snakey could have a twin! But I'm already having a hard time with the ones I got ;) Mama's chowing down on salmon like its going out of fashion and I doubt it'll last that long with her eating everything :rolleyes:

[ConcinusMan]

You know chantel, if you got out and found a place where there's a good poplulation density of northwesterns you could likely find a rainbow of different variations all in the same area, including red striped ones. However, the snakes I found at this location aren't red striped. I think the two you are talking about (both males) are actually orange. It's not red at all but a nice orange color. One of them, it's orange flecks in the stripe, the other, it's a solid orange stripe. I am tempted to keep the latter one but I'm not going to.

I've had quite a few people step up an volunteer to take some of these snakes but Steve stepped up first and I already told him I would send them to him. He'll have them this coming tuesday.

However, this isn't over yet. I'll likely return and perhaps find a few more before it's too late. The heavy equipment seems to have taken a break. No activity yesterday or today but I assure you, they will destroy this area and all the snakes with it very soon so I will definitely give it another try. If I only find one more, it will be worth that extra trip to save it.

Thanks everyone. I really appreciate the adoption offers. I was afraid I'd be stuck with them (I really need to cut down, not increase the number of snakes I have). It's good to know I can go back and rescue more, knowing that they will have homes if I do find more.

[kibakiba]

Snakey is orange but I say red just because it's easier. When he was a baby he was really dark red but it seems to have faded into orange. I would have volunteered to take some in but as you know the money issues and Mrs. Piggy eating everything. I love ordinoides.

[ConcinusMan]

This one you see with the nice solid orange stripe sure is a handsome devil and I thought about keeping him just in case flicker is too small or is otherwise rejected by my red stripe girl but this guy has a stubby tail unfortunately. I think that cuts down on his chances to be a successful suitor.

http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/2669/flicker015medium.jpg

They're all very calm and handle well though and I'm sure they'll make good pets.

[infernalis]

Stubby tails breed all the time ;)

[ConcinusMan]

Perhaps they do. No matter. I'm just going to make things simple and ship this group to Steve along with some others that were going to him anyway. If anyone wants to try and talk him out of some of them, talk to him.:p

[MlizGr]

If I was going to try and talk him out of one it would be that amazing albino he just got! Simply beautiful! I tell you, once St. George gets old and dies I'm gunna get a pair of the loveliest snakes I can find to take his place!

[Mommy2many]

Read back. I already have dibs on that albino. I think it falls under "East meets West":D

[MlizGr]

Haha! Rock paper scissors you for it?

[Ameivaboy]

If you get a bunch (like 5+) of the red/orange stripe ones shoot me a pm.

[Floof]

Poor snakes!! It's a good thing you're there to at least save some... Good luck on your next trip!

WOW, Northwesterns really do have incredible variation, don't they? I used to live on the coast of Washington, in the northern Willapa Bay/Valley area. Pretty sure the only garters native to the area are Northwesterns, and they ranged from very yellow, to very brown (much like the younger, duller snakes in your picture), to very dark, to "silvery" and even patternless powder-blue! (Yeah--I'm still really PO'ed at my brother for NOT catching those last two for me, lol!!!)

[Steven51587]

Still For sale i would pay cash tomorrow?? i Live in renton and i am willing to drive. My cell is 425-319-6050

[Snakeknot]

I'd take some IF I had anymore space! I'm all full up for snakes! Its a shame too as Bogo and Ruby have been so good to me that I now have a soft spot for garters of any persuasion.

My father was a wildlife conservationist before he retired. He'd be all up in arms about this if it happened close to him!

Wish you luck! Maybe they'll fail the perk tests OR SOMETHING and won't be able to continue.

Devon

[Snakeknot]

Have you tried contacting your local Fish & Wildlife Com.? Dens are USUALLY protected.

Devon

[ssssnakeluvr]

Have you tried contacting your local Fish & Wildlife Com.? Dens are USUALLY protected.

Devon
yea....right....... a friend at the reptile rescue and I met up with a wildlife officer here in Utah at a den site here thats being destroyed..... he didn't believe us.... did nothing to protect the den dens are protected by law here, but this is a garter snake den....they didnt do a darn thing. it's not a high profile thing like a rattlesnake den so they won't save it. I happened to see one lone male this last spring. :(

[guidofatherof5]

yea....right....... a friend at the reptile rescue and I met up with a wildlife officer here in Utah at a den site here thats being destroyed..... he didn't believe us.... did nothing to protect the den dens are protected by law here, but this is a garter snake den....they didnt do a darn thing. it's not a high profile thing like a rattlesnake den so they won't save it. I happened to see one lone male this last spring. :(

As if life isn't hard enough for garter snakes then we have creatures with superior intelligence and abilities refusing to help them.:mad:
Even in fields dedicated to the conservation of wildlife garter snakes are deemed not worth saving in most cases.
I'm embarrassed to be a human sometimes, many times.:(

[ssssnakeluvr]

i'm embarrassed to be a human sometimes, many times.:(

me too!!!!

[Tyrel26]

what was the final count on the snakes you managed to save from this area?

[ConcinusMan]

Only 7. The weather took a turn for the worse and stayed that way. I wasn't able to make it out there again. All 7 are doing well. One is still with me.

[Tyrel26]

is the site completely destroyed now?

[ConcinusMan]

is the site completely destroyed now?

Yes. It's been leveled and excavated. It's all bare dirt full of heavy equipment tracks. They've begun to construct a road right though the middle of it, then they stopped. Nothing is being done now, probably because of the weather.

[Tyrel26]

its a shame. the snakes you managed to save are very beautiful, its sad to think of all the ones lost. Well good karma for you for doing what you did.