Clumsy baby

[kibakiba]

As most of you may know, I have a baby northwestern named Tiny. The first couple days I had it, it was skittish and scared like any snake would be when its first caught. A couple days of just letting it settle in and feeding the others it got used to my hand and would follow me around and slither on me. I finally got some branches in their tank and tin was the first to check them out. The only problem I have is Tiny is extremely clumsy and I'm not sure if there's something wrong with it. Another problem I have is Tiny hasn't eaten, it's been almost 3 weeks, I figured it'd eat when its hungry but it's starting to look pretty thin. My boyfriend thinks I'm worrying too much but Tiny is a little joy and I want it to be okay. I'll feel better with someone on the forum telling me whether or not Tiny is normal or not. I have absolutely no experience with actual babies.

[guidofatherof5]

I wouldn't worry about the clumsy thing right now.
Not eating takes precedence.
What has Tiny been eating?

[Odie]

Got any Pic's :)

[HazAnga]

well... my first babies of my life has been this past year... and one of them used to have and still could have a problem with deciding which way is up. I havn't seen it do anything the past week or two but I would see it curled up with a few of the others and it was upside down. Put it into the cage, went upside down, put it into the water dish, decided to go upside down... it was very odd, but it seems completely fine and healthy flicking it's tongue and all. I will add that i believe it could of been the runt of the litter but even then.

[kibakiba]

Tiny hasn't eaten at all yet and I only have a picture from when I first got it, it seems to have grown an inch or two even though it hasn't eaten. I've offered both cut up worm and some fuzzy parts that I typically offer the ones who do eat and its all I have to offer them. All it does is slither onto my hand or tries to crawl up the tweezers.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/Tiny.jpg

[guidofatherof5]

Are you able to get any guppies or even small Mollies?
Flopping fish in the bottom of a small container can turn a non-eater into and ravenous eater.

[kibakiba]

Not until October, and even then the chance is very slim. We cant afford to buy much, we cant even buy pinkies. Well, that is, if my mom doesn't screw our budget up with buying Snakey and Mama a larger tank. I think what they have is fine for now and we can barely afford that alone. If I can talk her out of "helping" me with the snakes I can probably get some guppies, the only problem with it is the only pet shop near us that we can go to is expensive. It's worth trying though.

[guidofatherof5]

You won't need many if you also place worm chunks on the bottom. More than likely your snake will grab the worms long before the fish. 6 guppies should do and hold you for awhile.
Best of luck.

[Odie]

Have you tryed little slugs :)

[kibakiba]

There's no slugs around, unfortunately. We went on a hunt for tiny nightcrawlers so it ould have wiggly food and slugs or small frogs bu the frogs and slugs seem to be gone. :( I'm hoping the guppies will work, if not I'll have to hope it'll take food from me soon.

[drache]

I hope the little guy eats for you soon

[kibakiba]

I hope (s)he does too.. He's a little joy and I love how tiny he is. Too bad if he does eat he'll get bigger... But hopefully when he does he'll keep his tameness, I love how he just slithers right up into my hand and hangs out with me :D

[Mommy2many]

You could also try the salmon. My babies love the salmon.

[kibakiba]

I'll write that down for my mom. She's going grocery shopping tomorrow, she was going to get a little bit of tilapia to see if any of the snakes would like it, but I'll have her pick up a little bit of salmon, too. :) I think my snakes are spoiled... Here I am going out on a limb to find a bunch of different foods to feed them. I've already got my concinnus eating very small fuzzy bits that were left over and now possibly fish ;) Anything i try feeding tiny the others are sure to try and grab some too.

[HazAnga]

well I would deff try the guppies thing when you git a chance, my smallest baby, who is a runt for sure will only eat guppies, no fresh caught fish, worm, pinkie parts... nothing... so unfortunatly... I'm stuck there for now. He is growing slowly but the guppies work.

[Mommy2many]

Good luck and just keep trying! I know other members use tilapia but mine have never really taken to that as much as they appear to love the salmon. As a special treat, I will get the sockeye salmon (more expensive and very red in color) but they also like the cheaper one just as well:D

Maybe try getting a small snail from the fish store. He might surprise you!

[kibakiba]

I'm getting 10 guppies tomorrow and I'll put a few in a dish and put some pieces of worm, tilapia or salmon to see if he'll eat the guppies and a few pieces of something else :) Our pet store doesn't hold snails usually. :( I will buy one if they do have them though.

[Tyrel26]

update?

[kibakiba]

We weren't able to get guppies today, we forgot our debit card and only had 15 dollars on hand. The place advertised a sale on all fish, reptiles and all feeder supplies like mice guppies and whatever else and when I went to get some guppies she told me in a really snoody voice they weren't on sale and it was 2 dollars per guppy. That seemed absurd so I didn't get any. How much do guppies usually cost? All of their supplies were more expensive than the place I go to, a 20 gallon reptile tank with a sliding screen top was 90 dollars. The same one at the place I go to was 50 dollars rounded up a bit. Their mice were even worse too... 5 dollars for 3 pinkies, 3 dollars at the place I go. And that was a "sale". Anyways, Tiny hasn't taken anything yet but on Monday we'll be going to our usual place to buy a few guppies and some pinks for the adults and my concinnus. I haven't tried the salmon and tilapia yet, I haven't had time. Tomorrow is feeding day so maybe Tiny will find tomorrows menu appetizing... :P Its cut up worms, pinky, salmon and tilapia. Sounds yummy to me! ;)

[Mommy2many]

That pet store sounds like the ones I am forced to use here. The fancy guppies are $2.00 each. You need feeder guppies, if they offer them. They are not the same. Also, our pinkies are 3 for $5.00. Can't get them any cheaper unless I order from a supplier off the internet and then pay extravagant shipping charges. I can get the salmon for maybe $7.00 a pound at the gracery store, or get nightcrawlers at Walmart at 20 for $3.00. Slugs are free in my yard.

[MlizGr]

While fancy guppies are generally bigger than feeder guppies, and prettier, they're also a lot more expensive. You should be able to buy feeder guppies for 20 cents or so. And the nice thing about guppies is they are air breathers, so if you stick a male and two females in a bowl of dechlorinated water and keep them fed you'll get about 20 babies from each female every month. It takes a while for the fry to get big enough to feed to your snakes, but if you have the room I feel it's worth it. Just be sure to crush the food very fine when there are babies and they should do just fine.

[guidofatherof5]

You're right on your price.
5 for a dollar at my local pet shop.

[Tyrel26]

they charge 1.99 each here for feeder guppies...I told them they were nutty!

[MlizGr]

Post on craigs list that you're looking for some cheap guppies. Trust me, anyone who breeds them should have more than a couple extras. The first litter is cute, maybe only 10 or so, and it's so exciting to watch them grow. And then suddenly each female is dropping 20 at the same time... yeah. I used to have to hunt down friends with fish who'd eat the extras when I thinned out my collection when I bred fancy guppies. Especially the males, which are smaller and should be easier to eat for your little one.

[kibakiba]

I did ask for feeder guppies, they said they had an extremely large stock of feeder guppies and I did tell her that I had some baby snakes that needed some feeder guppies. We're getting more worms at Fred Meyers, they sell them depending on weight but I normally get anywhere from 20-30 really large ones for 3 dollars. They aren't for the snakes though until I get them eating a better diet, it's hard to tell really what they've been eating! Mine eat fruit scraps, egg shells and all of that and they actually eat some of the food that's for my crickets and that's high in calcium so I'd assume them being healthier. I wanted to buy bulk pinkies but I can't afford the shipping or buying $80+ pinkies for a low price. The tilapia and salmon didn't cost too much but we only got a little in case they wouldn't eat. The lady at the store was also nice enough so give us a little extra for free just so I could feed my snakes. She said they must be extremely pampered to have someone buying some fillets for them ;)

[kibakiba]

Well, it was dinner time here for the snakes and all of them stuffed themselves so much they wouldn't eat another bite and guess who ate? Tiny! He ate one small piece of worm. He was looking extremely skinny and sluggish today. I hope he'll keep eating. I did kind of "harass" him with the worm, I followed him around with it until he got mad and bit it. The first time he let go and the second time he fought with it before swallowing it.
You can see the little bulge that the worm made in his belly, and how thin he is now. He never looked so twiggy until today.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/Tiny_ate.jpg

[Mommy2many]

Aaawww, how old is he? He really is "tiny" What a cute baby!

[Mommy2many]

The lady at the store was also nice enough so give us a little extra for free just so I could feed my snakes. She said they must be extremely pampered to have someone buying some fillets for them ;)


The guys at the fish dept. always ask who's getting the salmon. They look at my kids because I don't order a large amount. I always tell them they can give me the not so best piece. You should see the look I get when I tell them it's for my snakes and not my kids! Priceless! Of course then they ask what kind of snakes, etc...

[kibakiba]

Tiny is 3 weeks old, I'm pretty sure he wasn't more than a couple days old when I caught him. He still has his little belly button, it's so adorable. The woman that gave us the fish hated snakes but she was really nice about giving us the free salmon, all the babies and Mama love it. That's all they wanted. They rejected the worms and ate the tilapia too. Mama even pushed Snakey away while she was pigging out on salmon ;) She's possibly pregnant and Snakey hasn't learned to not bother the "fat" woman while shes eating cause she's gonna eat it all! Haha. He gave me a loo like "Take this woman out of here... I want to eat those worms! she wont even let me near them :("

[guidofatherof5]

Tiny is looking good. You might keep with small meals for awhile.
Sometimes snakes that haven't eaten in awhile gorge themselves, only to throw it back up.
I think small scale meals let their digestive tract get kicked back in gear.
Great job getting Tiny to eat.
Let's hope you'll be wanting a name change soon.;)

[Mommy2many]

Yeah for your snakies wanting something easy to find and feed! Makes going thru the winter alot less stressful!

[kibakiba]

Yes, I figured I'd keep it to one very small piece every other day with the other snakes would be good until he starts putting on some weight. I'm not sure if I'll change his name, Runt's not so "runty" anymore, she's pretty big now but I'm going to keep her name the same. Once Tiny starts colouring up I'll probably think of a new name to match. They're born grayed out, I'm really curious to see what Tiny will look like :D

[guidofatherof5]

They're born grayed out, I'm really curious to see what Tiny will look like :D

Remember, we want updates so we can watch, Please.

[kibakiba]

Of course I'll update you! When he sheds he should have a little colour at least. Either way, I'll post more pictures when he does. :D

[kibakiba]

Well, Tiny has stopped eating and is looking extremely skinny and he's been a lot more lazy. I'm worried about him and I hope the little one makes it. He doesn't particularly like me anymore, after harassing him with food more than once but he was doing pretty well with eating when I was feeding the others. He rejected all attempts of feeding today. I wish he would come to his senses and realize how tasty the worm, fish and pinky is.

[guidofatherof5]

Best wishes to Tiny.

[kibakiba]

Thanks Steve, maybe he'll eat tomorrow. He's such a little sweetie. Any time I hold him he curls up and sleeps in my hand.

[Floof]

My first thought when I read through the beginning of this thread was to separate him from the others in case he was being "bullied" out of the food, or just wasn't being given the opportunity to eat before it was all gone.

Not sure if that idea's still applicable, though. I'm sorry to hear Tiny has stopped eating again. Hopefully he'll make another turn for the better and decide food is good again... My fingers are crossed for the little bugger. Best of luck!!

[kibakiba]

He's not being bullied and I have separated him to see if it'd help but he seems to reject the food more when he's not with his buddies. They all seem to like him and he follows them around and sleeps with them. He's a weird little snake. :p I've also tried feeding him in separate containers, with different food, with my hand, with some tweezers, etc. I feed them all by hand so no one gets left out, I absolutely will not feed the babies with a dish because I don't want any fights breaking out. My adults are the only ones who I really trust with eating together because, well, they always do. The babies, namely Snap and Ember, try taking food from the others after I give them a piece and they don't get one right away, I cant imagine what would happen if Runt or Tiny tried taking one of "their" pieces of food.

[Floof]

Good to know that he's not bullied. And that's a very interesting observation--at least to me... I've always believed housing any snakes, garters included, together was bad (not an unfounded belief with other species), so evidence of a snake doing better when housed with others is intriguing to me. Maybe I have to rethink my opinion, at least concerning garters!

As for getting Tiny to eat... Let me say first, that I have NEVER dealt with garter snakes. I have, however, worked with nonfeeders in a couple other species (rodent-eaters, and always big enough for at least a whole pinky), and I have a few ideas for you that worked for them and may just work for you.

First is to leave the snake overnight in a tiny tub with the prey item. The smaller the enclosure, the better. If you can find one small enough that the snake has to lay on top of the prey item, that's even better. I had a sand boa at one time that, much of the time, wouldn't eat unless I trapped him in such a small tub that he had to coil twice, one coil on top of the other, to fit inside. This put him in such close quarters with his pre-killed mice that he would eventually give in to temptation and eat it. Or maybe he just wanted it out of his way... Who knows, really; the point is, it worked for him!

There's also assist-feeding. In other species, this is considered among the last resorts (right before force-feeding and lizards). Basically, this entailed holding the snake (gently!!) behind the head and working the head (or smallest end, I guess, in the case of a slice of filet or a chunk of worm) of the prey item into the snake's mouth. Once it was in their mouths, they'd often just start eating from there.

You might also try a form of scenting. The main "scents," at least with corn snakes, are tuna water, chicken broth, "braining," and even lizard scenting. Not sure chicken broth would have an effect on a garter since they don't exactly eat birds (AFAIK, anyway). However, tuna might work. Braining is basically exposing the mouse's brain fluid... In a larger snake, you would poke a hole in its head; in such a small snake as Tiny, maybe cut a pinky head in half?

Then is lizard scenting. It's effective in corns because they're known to eat anoles and the like as hatchlings in the wild. Not sure if the same rule applies for any age garter, but I do know the Northwesterns that ranged through where I lived in WA were plenty big enough to eat the native Alligator lizards, so maybe it would work. If you do want to try lizard scenting, all you really need is a bit of shed skin. You could easily walk into a pet store or call up a friend with a pet lizard and ask for a chunk of shed skin... Or, if they're really nice, take a piece of tilapia or something and rub it on the lizard itself while you're there...

I'm not sure if any of these would work for a garter snake, but they might be worth a try. My fingers are crossed for the little guy/girl. :)

[kibakiba]

I have nothing to keep him in overnight, the container I had is occupied by my crickets and their hundreds of babies. I've tried the assisted feeding and tomorrow when I feed I'll have some salmon on hand. The times he did eat a worm, it had been mixed with tilapia and salmon. Since garters in my area don't eat lizards ( lizards don't live where I am) That wouldn't work for me. I know a lot of different scenting techniques, that's how I got my babies on pinkies. I had a pinky part in one part of my finger and a worm behind it, guarded by my nail and they took the pinky :)

[Floof]

Well, fingers crossed he goes for salmon-scented worms again!

About the lizard thing--if you think about it, CB corn snakes never see a lizard, and, chances are, their ancestors for several generations back have probably never so much as smelled a lizard, either. Through the northern chunk of their range (they go as far north as New Jersey), there aren't exactly lizards around, either. Yet they all instinctively know lizards are their natural prey, sometimes even to the point of refusing to eat until a lizard (or something smelling as such) is presented to them.

My point is, there doesn't have to be lizards in the area the snake originated from for it to have the natural instinct to see them as food... If you have access to a lizard to scent the food with, it is still worth a shot... :)

Like I said, though, that idea was just from observations of wild Northwestern garters in one small chunk of their range. I could easily be way off...

[ae88weaver]

How exactly do you feed the worms? And how long are you going to feed them before serving them to the gang? I think that sounds like a wonderful idea but I'm clueless on what to do... I'm clueless on all this stuff actually so any advice on anything would help :D

[ae88weaver]

[QUOTE=kibakiba;143602] We're getting more worms at Fred Meyers, they sell them depending on weight but I normally get anywhere from 20-30 really large ones for 3 dollars. They aren't for the snakes though until I get them eating a better diet, it's hard to tell really what they've been eating! Mine eat fruit scraps, egg shells and all of that and they actually eat some of the food that's for my crickets and that's high in calcium so I'd assume them being healthier.

^^ sorry i forgot to put the quote that made me ask... I really am clueless and new to this hehe:p

[Selkielass]

Lots of websites like this one; European Night Crawlers, Fishing Worms, Fishing Bait, Turtle Food, Lizard Food, Snake Food, Frog Food, Live Bait, (http://www.wormguys.com/page/1383091)
Have information on raising your own earthworms and nitecrawlers. Giving really nutritious, calcium rich food to feeder animals before you give them to your reptiles helps ensure good nutrition for your reptile- I've heard it called 'Gut loading'.

I haven't managed to achieve the right temperature/conditions for either Canadians or back yard earthworms to thrive in captivity.

[guidofatherof5]

How exactly do you feed the worms? And how long are you going to feed them before serving them to the gang? I think that sounds like a wonderful idea but I'm clueless on what to do... I'm clueless on all this stuff actually so any advice on anything would help :D


A lot depends on the size of the snake. Babies can eat baby night crawlers or chunks of cut crawlers.
For my newborns I have to cut the chunks as small as possible. Sometimes I even have to crosscut the chunks to make them smaller.

[kibakiba]

Feeding night crawlers is easy, they eat whatever they live in pretty much. I keep mine in newspaper shreds that's damp and kept in the fridge and add organics in and lots of high calcium things, like eggshell bits, calcium enriched foods and bone meal. As for feeding them to your snakes, well Steve said it all. :D You can feed them within a few days I'm sure, I only use one worm per feeding, so most of them are in there for 1-6 weeks before being eaten.

[guidofatherof5]

I only use one worm per feeding, so most of them are in there for 1-6 weeks before being eaten.

Can you tell me what that's like.:D
One worm, Wow.
I go through 1000 a month + pinkies.
My kids make fun of me, reminding me of the time I though having 30 snakes was a lot.:D

[kibakiba]

I use other foods too :P I only have 6 snakes, the adults eat the babies left overs and all of them prefer salmon and tilapia, so one is good enough for me :P I only feed worm because of Tiny, he wouldn't take salmon or tilapia but if I mixed it with worm, he ate it.

[kibakiba]

He ate a tiny piece of worm that had been in a dish with salmon and tilapia. I had to hold him and push it to his face to get him to eat, but he finally did. He's looking so skinny anymore. I'm scared to hold him sometimes. Anyways, after eating a piece he got to snuggle up to my hand and relax for a little bit.

[guidofatherof5]

He ate a tiny piece of worm that had been in a dish with salmon and tilapia. I had to hold him and push it to his face to get him to eat, but he finally did. He's looking so skinny anymore. I'm scared to hold him sometimes. Anyways, after eating a piece he got to snuggle up to my hand and relax for a little bit.

Glad to hear he took in something.:)

[Floof]

He ate a tiny piece of worm that had been in a dish with salmon and tilapia. I had to hold him and push it to his face to get him to eat, but he finally did. He's looking so skinny anymore. I'm scared to hold him sometimes. Anyways, after eating a piece he got to snuggle up to my hand and relax for a little bit.

So glad to hear he ate again for you! Sounds like salmon and tilapia does the trick for him. Now, hopefully he'll keep it up... :)

[kibakiba]

Tiny ate on his own today! I got some tiny live nightcrawlers in a glad container and scented them with salmon and he took one of the worms and a piece of salmon from my finger! He made short work of the worm and he's all nice and fat now! Hopefully he'll keep to it, I squealed with excitement when I saw him eating haha :D

[guidofatherof5]

Great news, Chantel.
Good job on trying some different things to get Tiny to eat.
Keep us posted and how about a photo?

[kibakiba]

Thanks! I also had a slug in there just in case he might want that, but he rejected it and Ember decided to eat it instead ;) I might try gathering more slugs or snails if I can find them, all the little ones heads perked up when I had the slug in my hand. Next month we're going to get a little tank to put some guppies in, it seems like a good idea since tiny does seem to enjoy moving food. The worm he went for was moving around a lot.

Here's a picture of Tiny's stuffed belly!

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/tinystuffed.jpg

[guidofatherof5]

Keep shoveling it in.:D

[kibakiba]

I let him eat as much as he wanted to, he rejected everything else. Luckily I have more baby night crawlers for feeding day on Tues. :D

[kibakiba]

I think Tiny has realized that food is absolutely delicious... :D


http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/SDC11133.jpg

[guidofatherof5]

That's a happy looking snake;)
Keep up the good work, Chantel.

[kibakiba]

Indeed, he napped on one hand while I fed the others with my other hand. I'm so happy he's eating. I'd be crushed if I lost him, he's such a little love. :D

[guidofatherof5]

Indeed, he napped on one hand while I fed the others with my other hand. I'm so happy he's eating. I'd be crushed if I lost him, he's such a little love. :D

I know how you feel.
I got my smallest Thamnophis ordinoides (Northwestern Garter Snake) to eat tonight. I was able to find one slug in my backyard. I had offered cutup night crawler and she refused it.
When I offered the slug it was gone in the blink of an eye.
It feels so good to get a non-eater eating. I think I will go look for a few more slugs.

[kibakiba]

yeah, I offered the live tiny night crawlers, a slug and some salmon. Tiny got a bit feisty with the feeding container haha. I scented the worms with salmon and I guess the salmon touched the side of the container. Tiny was attacking it for a while before realizing there were no worms or salmon there. :D

[RedSidedSPR]

My self caught garter didnt eat for two weeks after I caught him, but when I offered him fish, he ate them with little hesitation. I can relate to not being able to afford guppies, but you could try supplementing rosy red minnows as long as they are not in too much water or it will wash off. Even if you dont supplement, it might get hem/her eating.

[RedSidedSPR]

Oh.. you already got him eating. Sorry:D

[kibakiba]

Yeah, he's a big piggy now :D
I have another non-eater but I'm working on different methods of feeding. He just may have eaten the worm I left in with him last night. He really doesn't like me, but he'll get used to me after I get him eating ;)

[ConcinusMan]

Oh.. you already got him eating. Sorry:D

Also, these are "land locked" northwesterns. Not a creek, stream, lake, or pond for miles. These guys are definitely slug/worm eaters.

Real tough to get northwesterns to change food types, in spite of all the tricks we have up our sleeves, especially with the one's that only want to eat slugs. I could bury a small piece of night crawler in slug slime and guts and they will eat around it if they don't want worms.

Good luck Steve!

I am very fortunate in that the litter born this year to my red stripe girl take anything. Worms, fish, pinkies, anything. Very lucky. I fully expected worm/slug eaters only. Mom is WC and won't touch anything but worms, occasionally slugs, no matter how hungry she gets.

[kibakiba]

I got squirt to eat a while ago, but I've been too busy to post. He'll only take live tiny night crawlers in his water dish. If I put them in a food dish, he wont take them, and, he wont take them if I'm anywhere near him. He's a shy little one.

[guidofatherof5]

Shy or not. Eating is a good thing. Way to go Squirt.;)

[kibakiba]

Indeed, I had got a picture of him eating once... He tried wolfing down two worms at once. He's a silly little guy.

On the topic of food, I cant find the safe fish list for garters, but is sockeye salmon okay to feed them? We got a pound and a half of it the other day (for human consumption) and I'm running low on fish for my babies. I was thinking of cutting a little slab of it off to keep for them, but I don't know if it's safe.

[guidofatherof5]

Here you go:
http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/husbandry/6654-safe-fish-list.html

[kibakiba]

Hmmm, I cant seem to find "sockeye salmon" on either list. Unless, of course, I'm overlooking it, which is a possibility... I am blonde... :D
I guess I just wont feed it to them, I don't know much about fish, and I don't want to risk harming my babies... They'll have to make due with worms until we can find some regular salmon and tilapia.

[guidofatherof5]

A good safe way to look at the situation.;)

[ConcinusMan]

Sockeye is pretty much the same as most any other salmon caught in WA and so it's listed under "Salmon, wild caught WA" and I'm sure that's what you have since runs were up 260% this year over last. Heavy PCB contamination in all wild WA salmon but also mercury although at lower levels than many fish. Let's put it this way, it's not recommended safe for an adult human (175 lb man) to consume more than one serving (a few ounces) per month. PCB's are known neurotoxins. (bad for the nervous system) Any salmon species in WA, OR, or CA is going to have significant amounts. Wild pacific salmon is #16 on the list of the most contaminated fish. It's ridiculous to harvest and sell that poison especially considering that all pacific salmon are threatened or in danger of extinction.

I won't even eat one serving of wild pacific salmon a year, much less give it to my snakes. Farmed atlantic salmon, farmed rainbow trout, wild alaskan salmon, or tilapia are much safer.

[kibakiba]

Indeed. The salmon I had originally was farmed, and the coho was wild caught. I don't give the snakes much more than 5 small pieces of coho in the dish. Tiny also wont eat anything but coho, or something that has coho on it, scenting doesn't work for him.

I'll have my mom look for some farmed fish next time we get groceries. There was farmed trout at the place we went but I couldn't remember if it was safe or not, and since I don't like it, I didn't bother.

[ConcinusMan]

What kind of trout I wonder? Steelhead, which is the same fish as rainbow trout after it's been out to sea, tastes wonderful. Like very mild salmon. Farmed steelhead is OK to feed to your snakes. If they don't have it, ask for it and they might be willing to order some with their next shipment.

Keep trying other fish. Tiny will eventually eat other fish, trust me. Usually when they first start out eating or they start after a long fast, they get stuck on one particular fish at first but eventually, that changes.

[kibakiba]

It was steelhead. For me, trout tastes nothing like salmon. My taste buds are just different and I'm really picky. I'll write it down for my mom. I hope Tiny will take to a different fish. The coho we got was a tiny slab of it for 8 dollars and I don't want to pay that if I can pay less for healthier stuff. It seems like the coho is the most expensive of all the fish at the stores.

[ConcinusMan]

And farmed steelhead tastes nothing like trout. It tastes like salmon but is cheaper and those are the reasons why people buy it, at least that's why they buy it in my area. The farmers know this, and even feed the fish something that makes their flesh pink so it looks like salmon too.

Your taste buds aren't necessarily "different". The fresh water version of steelhead, which is rainbow trout definitely tastes like trout. It tastes like salmon only after it's lived in saltwater and has become steelhead.;)

[kibakiba]

I mean, both rainbow and steelhead taste disgusting to me. Regardless of where it's been. It tastes watery and bitter to me. So I'm sure that my taste buds are pretty different.

[ConcinusMan]

Another thing I like about using steelhead is that it doesn't smell like fish and so won't stink up your house like salmon does when you are preparing to feed it to your snakes. Heck, it barely has any smell even when you're cooking it.

[kibakiba]

Then the snakes wouldn't like it :p They always smell the fish when I walk into the room with the fish and the cutting board and start rubbing their noses on the glass and begging. It's really cute. If I don't have the salmon in with the tilapia, worms and pinky parts, they don't seem as interested and they don't eat as much. Each f the babies get at the very least 5 pieces of food. Ember, since he's so big, gets to have 5-10 pieces. It barely makes a bulge in his stomach if he only has 5 regular sized pieces. If he doesn't get fed enough he starts attacking his sister and Tiny. He did that yesterday, Snap just finished swallowing a piece of pinky and Ember randomly charged at her and bit her head... And after feeding all of them I held Tiny for a little bit and when I put him back, Ember bit him also. I washed my hands of the fish before picking Tiny up, so he didn't smell like food. He's been acting very strange lately.

[ConcinusMan]

Most of my concinnus' like the steelhead better than silversides, even though the steelhead doesn't smell fishy like the silversides. They don't seem to like tilapia much but they eat it so yeah, I noticed that too.

Be very careful about keeping them from biting each others' faces/heads! They can bite each others mouth area and it will most definitely get infected. That wouldn't be good at all. In fact, it can eventually be fatal. Check them out thoroughly and make sure their "lips" are coming together correctly and check for swelling. After feeding them separately, spray their faces and bodies with luke warm water or put them in water to wash off the smell. It also helps if you feed all of them well and keep them separate for a while before putting them back together. Ember smelled fish on tiny, I guarantee it. That's the only reason he would have bitten Tiny. Ember isn't acting strange, he's acting like a typical concinnus at feeding time. Concinnus babies get crazy over fish and will fight! Ember shouldn't have been given a chance to charge at any of the other snakes because they shouldn't be together at all when they are still in feeding mode. I'm not telling you this to come down on you or make you feel bad, I'm telling you this to protect your babies.

Again, check their mouths from the underside of their heads and look for "lips" that don't seal tightly. If you see that, be honest and come back and tell me. The earlier you catch it and treat it, the better chances of healing it up before it becomes terminal. I have had it happen to my babies too. If caught early it is treatable in most cases.

[kibakiba]

He bit Tiny 30 minutes after feeding time. And I feed them all together mainly because I have 3 skittish snakes in the same enclosure that would freak out, musk and then not eat if I were to put them in a separate area. I've tried it. I feed them with my hands as a way to get them more used to my hand being inside the tank. Ember has been acting strange. I didn't just mean the fact he went all crazy after feeding time. He's usually calm and sweet, he lets me pick him up with no fuss and has never musked me since I got him. But, for the last 5 days he's been like Snap, spazzing when I pick him up, musking multiple times and he's bit me a few times, too. Nothings changed that could cause this, other than me exercising more, but I don't know if that would even matter.

About two hours ago before my nap I tried picking Ember up and he didn't fuss as much but he did strike at me, but didn't latch onto my skin or anything. He was fine with me touching him and moving him after a few minutes.

[ConcinusMan]

I know what you mean about them freaking out if you move them. I usually just get one off by himself, get him to take a bite while keeping the others away. Once he starts swallowing, that's when I pick him up and put him in separate enclosure. Seems to work fine, with biting incidents being rare. Should be very easy since you have way fewer snakes than I do. Ember might be going into shed soon.(turning cloudy soon) They often get cranky when the time is close. Does his colors seem to be a bit dull? sometimes I notice that before they turn cloudy.

Are you sure you're not keeping them too warm? They're acting like overheated snakes. The warmest spot shouldn't be over 88-90 degrees (that includes the surface of the substrate, not just the air) and the cool end really needs to be 70-75 and the whole tank cooled to 70 every night for at least 8 hours. The whole tank shouldn't be hot and it shouldn't be warm 24/7. I had a lot of babies this year and not a single one bites ever, even if they're cranky, unless they smell food on my hands. Sure, some of them spazz out and musk, but no striking or biting. Very common for a snake that doesn't normally bite, to bite if it's overheated. What about humidity? I mist the whole tank every morning, dampening the substrate. (it dries by the end of the day usually, but not before)

Keep watching for trouble around their mouths, even if you don't see anything now. First sign of their "lips" not sealing tight, or injuries near their mouths let me know (PM me) and I'll tell you how I treat it.

Looks something like this:

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y77/cally_dog/CIMG6194.jpg

[kibakiba]

I only have a 40 watt bulb on them. I do keep my new heater on at night only because if its off, it goes under 30 degrees in my room and their night time bulbs are only 25 watts. I'd say when my heater is on it's no more than 75 in my room. Ember doesn't look dull anywhere, in fact, he looks just as vibrant as he always does.
My mom thinks he's been spending too much time with his sister and her behaviour is rubbing off on him. It does seem like it, he used to be such a sweetheart. He has been hanging around with her more... Maybe they are secretly planning to escape from the tank... or drive me crazy!

[ConcinusMan]

I only have a 40 watt bulb on them. I do keep my new heater on at night only because if its off, it goes under 30 degrees in my room and their night time bulbs are only 25 watts. I'd say when my heater is on it's no more than 75 in my room. Ember doesn't look dull anywhere, in fact, he looks just as vibrant as he always does.
My mom thinks he's been spending too much time with his sister and her behaviour is rubbing off on him. It does seem like it, he used to be such a sweetheart. He has been hanging around with her more... Maybe they are secretly planning to escape from the tank... or drive me crazy!


Well, the 40 watt bulb doesn't say anything about the temperatures in their tank. 40 watt works fine for me in the summer when I run air conditioners to keep the house at 75 but I often have to go to a higher watt bulb in the winter when the house is much cooler. And I'm sure that your room doesn't go under 30 degrees F. That's below freezing. The temperature of your room isn't really what I'm talking about anyway but that does affect the heating you should use for your tanks.

I really don't think the two snakes being together causes one to "rub off" on the other. I have aggressive, mean, nasty garters in with perfectly tame ones. They don't rub off on one another. Your mom is obviously a good mother and what she said about that definitely applies to human children and other mammals, but in case you didn't notice, snakes are a little bit different from us.:p

Now, I know you're running space heaters to keep yourselves and the snakes warm. Those can make the air in a room very dry. Keep the heater far from the snakes, at least, don't let it blow in their direction. I used to burn wood in a fireplace for heat. The humidity in a 70 degree room heated by fire got very low. Too low for garters. Space heaters do the same thing. They dry the air, and make the temperature in room go up and down like a roller coaster.

Maybe this is why he's cranky. Too warm, too fast on temperature changes, or too low humidity. I mean, if you were too warm, too cold, up and down a dozen times a day, or didn't know what was coming next, it would irritate you too wouldn't it? Snakes or any reptile are much more vulnerable to temperature changes. We can handle that because we are warm blooded.

So you're using only heat from above? That's OK, and so is only heat from below. Just trying to get a picture of their heat situation. I might be able to send you something that can help you to be sure of the temperatures. I know that food for the snakes, food for yourselves, and keeping warm this winter are a priority and so, you probably can't spend anything on good, accurate temperature and humidity gauges.

I have several thermometers, they are even accurately calibrated by the USDA since I work in a food production plant. They are like meat thermometers. They are great for measuring the temperature of a substrate surface when placed on the surface of a substrate heated from a heat pad below. They don't look great, but work perfectly for measuring the temperature of your substrate with a heat pad under the substrate. Surely, I can send at least one of them to you.

I don't have any humidity gauges or ambient air thermometers I can send at this time.

Surely, there's some forum members here that can do something for you and your snakes. Accurately measuring and keeping an eye on temperatures and humidity can reveal causes for behavior changes like you told me about. I think the crankiness is related to the changes.

Let's see what we can gather up for you.:D

Anyone? Does anyone have decent ambient air thermometers and/or hydrometers they can spare.

Chantel really cares for her snakes but could use a little help I think. That's what we are here for.

[kibakiba]

Steve has said that one of his more "unruly" radixes have become more tame after spending some time with the tamer ones. Or maybe I was just hallucinating when I read that. When it was snowing, if I had my heater off my room got so cold I could see my breath. I have noticed the air being a bit dry, I mist my room a few times a day to keep it from feeling like a desert. I cant make the heater not blow in the direction of my snakes, there's only one place that has room for it, which is directly facing my snakes, however, the babies are 5 ft. away and the adults are 6 ft. away from it. Both the babies and the adults are heated from above, but Squirt is heated from below on a heating pad, since he's being quarantined, and I'd like to work with him individually since he's very shy and nervous.
And as for the rollercoaster heat, it's hard to prevent that, but it actually doesn't irritate me when it happens, as I get sick a lot and get a lot of hot and cold rollercoaster feeling that don't last more than a minute and happen all day long. It's annoying when it happens, sure, because I cant do anything while it's happening, but I've learned to live with it. I know the snakes are different though. How much do humidity gauges and ambient air thermometers usually cost? We might be able to buy them if they don't cost too much, but since it's Christmas and winter it's hard to afford things. I wouldn't really feel right having people give me them, I'd feel bad not being able to pay them back. I guess if someone was willing to send them to help improve the life of my snakes, it'd be very greatly appreciated.

[ConcinusMan]

It's really not a good idea to have that heater so close or blowing in their direction at all. Not good. If you are going to buy the gauges, you'll have to price them at the store nearest you. I cannot say what they will cost in your area. Might want to put a large pan of water in front of the heater. This will help with humidity.

[kibakiba]

I cant have my heater anywhere else, or further away. If I do not have it in my room, my room is as cold as it is outside, even with the heat lamps and computer running.
What kind of store would have them? ... Other than a pet shop, I've seen some there but they are ridiculously priced and I will not buy from there.

[ConcinusMan]

I dunno? Anyway, that heater might be the cause of the crankiness

[kibakiba]

Ember was cranky a week or two before the heater and acted like Snap the whole time. I only got the heater on the 2nd. Ember was pulling his stunts when my real mom and my little brother were visiting for thanksgiving. You keep saying the heater is the problem as if I don't already get it. I can't change the fact that our furnace is broke, we don't have enough money to even get it looked at. If I leave the heater off and just have a blanket around me the whole time, my snakes would freeze. Sure, they can take cold temps but I have no plans on breeding them and I don't want to brumate them at all. I cant change what temperature my heater puts out, I have it on the lowest setting, it keeps things nice and warm, I keep it off on warmer days and at night when I'm exercising, I cant change how it goes... All my other snakes are acting perfectly normal, it's only Ember who is having the problem. I doubt if it was the heater, it would just be him and not everyone else. I can't work out somewhere else, I cant move my heater, I cant put a dish of water in front of my heater, and I cant move my snakes. Ever since I got the heater and the new heat lamps my snakes have been very active and seem a lot happier. The fact that my new heater is literally the "root of all evil" is pretty much putting unnecessary stress on me, we can't take it back and exchange it and its supposedly stressing Ember, so it's 40 dollars wasted that we cant afford to waste.

[ConcinusMan]

Nevermind. I try to help and all I get is a blast of ship lately.

[kibakiba]

Well maybe you should lighten the tone of you're posts, you always seem rude and accusing when you respond, have you ever thought that, that might be the reason?

[ConcinusMan]

Accusing? show me. Show me where I accuse. 'nuff said.

[Floof]

Er... Just an idea, but maybe you should get a thermostat to hook the heater to? If you put the probe in one of your snakes' enclosures and hook the heater to the output, it will be able to turn the heater on/off as necessary to keep the tanks at the desired temperature... You might have to suck it up and get a Ranco ($80 new and prewired from a company like Reptile Basics--Thermostats - Reptile Basics Inc (http://www.reptilebasics.com/thermostats/), unless you can find one used for cheaper) to assure you have enough wattage to run the heater safely and enough cord length to reach the enclosures, but spending a lot of money is the name of the game when you're trying to keep reptiles alive and healthy. A good thermostat is the safest way you can go to make sure your snakes aren't getting too hot or cold. Actually, you should already have a thermostat if you're using a heat pad on any of your enclosures, because a standard heat pad can exceed 140*F, more than hot enough to kill your snake. Just last week, I measured one that had been running for about 12 hours at over 160*F. That's getting near fatal even for my heat-loving cockroach colony, let alone a cool-climate garter snake.

On the thermostat and hygrometer subject, you can get small, inexpensive indoor/outdoor thermometers at stores like Walmart that measure ambient temperature at the unit ("indoor") and at a separate probe or sensor ("outdoor"). Some also measure humidity at either or both points. The most basic ones run $10, but they're worth the investment to be sure your snakes aren't being cooked, and, quite honestly, they're NOT a negotiable piece of equipment in snake keeping. Make sure whatever thermometer/hygrometers you get are digital, because the stick-on and dial types are all incredibly unreliable and inaccurate and not worth the money you'd be wasting on them.

I don't see where ConcinnusMan is being accusing. To be honest, I'm amazed and impressed that he's still here trying to help you when every one of your responses to his very good, reasonable advice is essentially a "SCREW YOU" and a slap in the face. Even if you don't mean it that way, it's even more upsetting to the people giving the advice to have it thrown back at them (whether it's because you "can't afford it" or any other excuse, true or no) than it is for you when someone gives you honest advice ("to keep your snakes healthy, you have to do this which happens to cost money"). ConcinnusMan has been MORE than accommodating, has stuck around to give you advice even though every little piece of it has been thrown back in his face, and has even tried to help you by trying to find supplies he can send you for free. He has gone above and beyond trying to help you out... And you turn around and accuse him of having an accusatory tone, something that, chances are, YOU read into his post completely on your own. Really, it's painful just to read this thread, and it saddens me to watch you take ConcinnusMan for granted and ignore everything he says.

[ConcinusMan]

"every one of your responses to his very good, reasonable advice is essentially a "SCREW YOU" and a slap in the face."

I thought perhaps I was being completely crazy for feeling like that's what was happening and perhaps I just have a perception problem. You see it too. Whew! I thought I was losing it.

[Floof]

"every one of your responses to his very good, reasonable advice is essentially a "SCREW YOU" and a slap in the face."

I thought perhaps I was being completely crazy for feeling like that's what was happening and perhaps I just have a perception problem. You see it too. Whew! I thought I was losing it.

Lol! Not losing it at all, unfortunately. I really am impressed with your patience in this situation. I've been following this thread since I joined the forum, and every time I open a "Clumsy Baby Update" email, I come very close to just unsubscribing because, honestly, it's painful to read. Unfortunately, when I start reading a thread, I'm compulsed to finish it and follow it until it dies. Even a thread like this, where just reading makes me exhausted, and I'm afraid to post because I know my advice will be ignored.

TBH, the thermostat thing first occurred to me a few pages ago when the temperature issue first came up, but put off saying anything about it because I expect her to automatically shut down and say "I can't do that, I don't have enough money" the moment I utter the word "buy," "purchase," or "cost." Whether or not the money issue is a real problem in her household, it is truly unfortunate for the snakes that she can't muster up a few dimes or, presumably, get a part time job, even if it's just dog walking for the neighbor, so she can do better by these animals SHE has insisted on bringing into her home and caring for. I'm starting to really see why even youngsters with high-income parents are heavily criticized for getting animals they can't pay for by themselves... Then you get a youngster who comes in whose parents, it sounds like, can hardly afford to feed the family, god forbid half a dozen or so pet snakes.

To the OP, I'm sorry if I sound at all "accusatory" in my post, because I am not being that at all... I simply have a bad habit of being brutally honest. I would like nothing more than to see you succeed and your snakes thrive, but that simply cannot happen if you refuse to go to any of the necessary expenses to keep them healthy.

[ConcinusMan]

Well, to be honest, I didn't know about her situation at the time I sold her the two concinnus babies or I might have thought twice about it. I had no idea that her house was so cold in the winter and her only source of heat was, well, much less than ideal.

I'm not saying that being not-so well off will prelcude me from selling snakes to someone but honestly, If I knew it would be such a struggle, I probably wouldn't have sent any at all at any price or gave them away for just shipping cost. She already had some WC northwesterns to keep her company, and they're tough as nails, even in cold or less than ideal conditions.

Still, even as the situation is, she's done a great job of taking care of them and the babies I sent are growing and thriving. That's better than if I had sent them to someone with tons of money to buy this stuff, but then they turn around and neglect them or don't care for them properly. As you know, babies go downhill fast if not properly cared for. She's had them quite a while and they are not only OK, but growing fast too.:cool:

[Floof]

No one can blame you for not intimately understanding your customer's situation. However, I am glad to hear she is doing well enough by them for the snakes to be thriving and growing. That proves that I was at least somewhat wrong in my perception of what her snakes' health must be like--throughout this thread, I'd come to start imagining all the negative possibilities, especially with the more recent development of one of the Concinnus becoming unruly for presumably environmental reasons.

Maybe garter snakes are different, but my knowledge of other snake species says most will go off feed or display some other, usually physical, sign of stress before they start developing "behavioral" problems from the same... So with Ember acting "strange" likely due to what's probably unstable temperature and humidity, I automatically jumped to the conclusion that he's likely not eating especially well, or otherwise not thriving.

It's nice to be wrong about things like that... ;)

[ConcinusMan]

I agree, they are probably uncomfortable at this time, as I already stated. Hot dry wind from a space heater blowing directly at them from 6 feet away is unacceptable. They'd be better off if they were allowed to get cold for the winter. Unless she's living in a closet, I just find it hard to swallow that she can't direct the heater away from them.

[kibakiba]

Yeah, saying "SCREW YOU" to Cman is worth it for the "f off" and "shut the f up" I got tyvm. I don't need jerks telling me I'm not taking care of my snakes properly, I make 700 dollars a month, all our mills take up 500 leaving 200 for food and the animals we have. A dog, a cat, a parrot and 6 snakes. We're over a few thousand in debt so screw off. I cant afford anything other than what we have. My snakes are acting fine now, I had already said Ember was acting fine that day and none of the others were acing like that. Geez.
Embers eating fine, pooping, active, etc, he just had a few weeks of being weird. it's not the damn heat. Squirts heating pad is low, it probably doesn't even keep him that warm.
I'm through with this.

[ConcinusMan]

Merry Christmas everyone!

[guidofatherof5]

I for one hope this is over.
I'm sure this isn't the way this thread should have gone.

[erinlovessnakes]

:Di am leann's daughter. my favorite animal is indeed a snake.