Bob Mason's thoughts on my 3-stripe polymorphic concinnus

[ConcinusMan]

I wrote to Robert T. Mason of Mason Labs about the curiosity of my "dimporphic" (as I call them) T.s. concinnus, which produce both 3-stripe and regular single-stripe T.s. concinnus.

This is what I said:

I am revisiting an old curiosity which I looked into back in the early '90's. In Clark Co. Washington and even areas along the Willamette and Columbia river junction in Oregon I can find 3 stripe T.s. concinnus. Especially in the Salmon Creek, WA watershed I can find both types, the triple stripe version being less common. I've even produced litters from both types that were caught in the same population. There has in the past been doubt on my part that they are "pure" but there's no other sirtalis' anywhere near where I find them. Also, single stripe parents from that population still produce some 3 stripe babies and they do retain their lateral stripes into adulthood. Same goes for 3 stripe parents; the offspring are of both types. So, I came to the conclusion that this is just polymorphism, or more appropriately dimorphism.

Now I have people doubting me when I tell them that they are pure T.s. concinnus and that no crossing of subspecies has been done on my part and it's highly doubtful any crossing occurred in the wild.
Has any research been done on this particular subject? Any theories or thoughts you might have on why this seems to happen in this particular area would be welcome.


------------------------------------------------

Robert T. Mason, Professor of Zoology wrote back and said:

I don’t know of anyone who is studying this but it is certainly something that PNW herpetologists have been aware of for well over a century. My own opinion is that you are exactly right. This seems to be just a polymorphic trait that is interesting as to when and how it occurs, but one does not have to invoke crosses with other species to explain it. A comparable phenomenon is the extensive variation in color patterns in our local T. ordinoides.

It’s nice to hear that you have been breeding T.s.c.’s. That would probably constitute you as the local expert.

Best regards,

Bob Mason

_____________________________


Honestly, I don't think it's as complicated as the polymorphism seen in northwesterns. It's just a simple gene that gets turned on of or off like a switch, I suppose. Some babies have it turned "on" others "off" but they all (snakes from the area where 3-stripes occur) carry it, and can pass it on. Being how it's not as common as the normal single stripe variety, it may even eventually prove to be recessive but that's just speculation at this point. All I know is, my 3 stripers are concinnus, just a little different, and still very attractive and desireable snakes to have around. Other than the extra stripes, they are every bit what I would expect from a concinnus as far as behavior and disposition goes.

They're just "special" is all.:D

I love them.

[Spankenstyne]

For what it's worth there are also (or were) some pure concinnus being kept in Eastern Canada that were also showing both single and 3 stripes. I believe the same person that produced JSI's beautiful examples has/had produced both. It's an oldschool guy that hates crosses & hybrids.

[ConcinusMan]

Really? That's good to know. You see? It's not like I made them up.:p

Yeah, for a snake first described as "stylistically congruous" there really is still some surprises and morphs within their genes.

I'm still blown away at the variety of different colors/patterns exhibited in the T.s. concinnus population I visited this year in Oregon. We're talking 3 or 4 distinct morphs and "in-betweeners" concentrated in a 3/4 square mile habitat area. Very cool.:D No 3-stripe there.:cool: Just cool colors and patterns variety.

But those are different than the one's we're talking about, of course.;)

[ConcinusMan]

I finally yesterday purchased the "Reptiles of the Northwest" Alan St. John. Lone Pine publishing 2002. Excellent book which goes into great detail about garter snakes in my area.

Under the subject of Oregon Red Spotted garters, I find this:

..."One uncommon color morph lacks the red markings, instead having a white or bluish-white dorsal stripe, side blotches and head"

I think they're talking about my blue/green anerythristic morph there.

http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/1947/anerys054large.jpg

Another, caught yesterday and temporarily detained for a few days for photos:
http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/5414/herptrip017large.jpg

In addition to that description, the book also states:

"The most typical examples are found in Oregon's Willamette Valley, whereas those from the surrounding areas often have some characteristics of the fitchii subspecies"

My 3 stripe concinnus are an example of that. They do look somewhat similar to a fitchii. NOT found in the Willamette Valley, but instead, this morph is found in one of the "surrounding areas".

3 stripe adult concinnus pictured here, with a very "fitchii-like" look to the head, and well defined lateral stripes, but this concinnus morph is found far from any fitchii population.

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/3229/dscn0713large.jpg

[ConcinusMan]

There is one other variation I find in the same area as the anerythristics. I don't know what else to call it, other than "florescent orange". A typically normal looking snake but with a very unusual bright shade of orange that has a florescent "glowing" quality to it. Very pretty. Also, one of rarest encountered variations in my personal experience. (I've only found 3 out of hundreds of snakes observed, over the course many herping trips) I was lucky enough to find one yesterday. Sorry it's blurry, I'll get better one's later but you can definitely see what I mean about the color. Very pretty!

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/4615/herptrip010large.jpg

Just goes to show you that concinnus populations can be polymorphic too. Especially in NW Oregon outside of the Willamette Valley.
http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/3140/herptrip014large.jpg

Another forum member that lives in my area has an adult pair of these and will be attempting to produce 2011 babies with this bright orange coloration.

One thing not mentioned in the book is that snakes outside the willamette valley or in the northern extreme of the valley, snakes tend to have dark heads or mostly black on the top of the head instead of a colorful orange head. And in Clark, Co. WA, turquoise "lips" and throat are the trend.

http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/7102/dscn0476medium.jpg

Many variations are typically dependent on where they are found but as I said, the population where I find anerythristic snakes has many different morphs within the same population ranging from very blue anery's, black and white anery's, florescent orange, hypoerythristics, normals, and widely varying patterns (polymorphism) but no "fitchii-like" snakes at that location.

[ConcinusMan]

" Especially in NW Oregon outside of the Willamette Valley."

CORRECTION: it should have read ...AND outside of..

[BUSHSNAKE]

hmmm very interesting to say the least...the "on off" switch makes alot of sence

[mustang]

wow is all i have to say (i am amazed im able to idenitify polymorphism and string morphs together in sentences now......my correct english is gettn shot to hell :) )

[ConcinusMan]

hmmm very interesting to say the least...the "on off" switch makes alot of sence

just think of it as homozygous and heterozygous. Both the "normal" single-stripers, and the significantly different 3-stripers, carry the trait and some of the offspring will be homo for the 3-stripe trait. The rest would be the popular and familiar dark single-stripe morph. (hets for 3 stripe)

Like Jeff said:


lol, you guys take yourselves way to seriously, lighten up, it's just garter snake breeding, not rocket science or national security. I'm going to breed her and we will see what we get, may be something pretty, might be something ugly, or may even end up just being average, pretty simple stuff. If it makes something pretty then we can try to figure out the how and why and characterize the inheritance.

I do take it somewhat seriously and it's just a dang inheritable trait for the 3-stripe "fitchii look" but still just T.s. concinnus when you come down to it.:cool: Like Jeff said; not rocket science.:cool:


wow is all i have to say (i am amazed im able to idenitify polymorphism and string morphs together in sentences now......my correct english is gettn shot to hell :) )


GOOD!:D You will go far young Skywalker...

[ConcinusMan]

For what it's worth there are also (or were) some pure concinnus being kept in Eastern Canada that were also showing both single and 3 stripes. I believe the same person that produced JSI's beautiful examples has/had produced both. It's an oldschool guy that hates crosses & hybrids.

JSI's ??? :confused:

So, I'm wondering, what is it with nobody wanting the 3 stripe babies? I've only heard vague references about them not being "pure" or whatever. I'm sure the reasons vary from person to person. People bought up all the single stripe babies but I've sold very few of the others. I've even been very up front in telling people that the single stripe babies will likely produce both types and that they carry the same genes as the 3 stripe ones, so it can't be that they are afraid of getting the 3 stripe gene in their breeding bloodlines.(unless they just think I'm BSing them.)

Any thoughts? I'd like to hear some opinions or your own reasons for shying away from the 3 stripe babies. Are they not good looking snakes? Are you afraid they aren't "pure"? Do you just like the single stripe look better? Let's hear it.

At any rate, I think I'll leave those out of my breeding plans for 2011 and just concentrate on producing anery's next year. I did have a lot of requests for those but didn't have any litters this year.

[gregmonsta]

I think that when somebody wants a concinnus they will want the commonly accepted phenotype. When you look for them it's the 'one-stripe' characteristic that people key to, it's classic and sets them apart from other garters in the first place. It makes them special compared to the 'three-stripe' phenotype which looks more like a 'normal' garter.;)

For example, I would not have considered the three-stripe as a first buy because the original one-stripe is more appealing and what I expect from a concinnus. Whereas now I'd consider it because it's a curiosity .... but not a priority .... and you're too far away for me to consider shipping :rolleyes:

You'll have no probs what so ever with future anery groups though ;)

[kibakiba]

I quite like the three striped version of them, they are pretty and to me they don't look like a "normal" garter... What is a normal garter anyways? I've never heard of that species!:p Anyways, they are just as beautiful as the one stripes. Honestly, I think little Snap is an awesome looking little girl! She has just a tiny spot of red on her face and it just looks too cute.

[ConcinusMan]

That tiny red spot (almost as if someone applied a spot of blush makeup) along with the light colored belly and lateral stripes would be the traits mentioned in the book "Reptiles of the Northwest".

From the book:
"The most typical examples are found in Oregon's Willamette Valley, whereas those from the surrounding areas often have some characteristics of the fitchii subspecies"

Although the 3-stripe concinnus do appear to look very much like a fitchii, (valley garter) range separation and geographic barriers, along with subtle morphological differences between the two subspecies do distinguish 3-stripe concinnus from valley garters. If you see the two ssp. side-by-side and have experience with seeing both ssp from WA and Oregon, you just know. I mean, you can tell which-is-which (as if the location weren't enough) I don't know how to explain it. I've seen WA and Oregon fitchii and of course I've seen 3-stripe concinnus and I can just tell the difference. The color is different, and the definition of the markings (stripes and spots) is different.

The main thing is, there is a very limited area of the concinnus' range that includes where this dimorphic population is found. The majority of that limited area includes most of Clark County, WA and a little bit of adjacent Multnomah County, OR. That area is not considered the Willamette Valley. It's considered part of the Puget Lowlands. From Vancouver, WA to Longview, WA, dimorphic (3-stripe and regular) concinnus populations are fairly common. We can only speculate as to the reason why 3-stripe "fitchii-looking" concinnus exist in that particular area but that area has some unique geological history and it also to this day has a unique climate influence when compared to surrounding areas outside of the influence of the gorge which often channels air in from eastern washington (desert) causing snow or freezing rain in Portland/Vancouver when the rest of western WA and OR are raining. Think of it this way:

Take a look at that river separating WA and OR. It's like a channel cut deep through the cascade range. That channel, and any areas immediately east of the mountains, or west of the mountains is under the influence of a climate that is affected by that channel.

We call it the "east wind" in my area. In the winter, it can be brutally cold, channeling sub-freezing wind from eastern WA/OR into the area west of the mountains.(Portland/Vancouver) Go 5 miles north, south, or west, and that wind is absent. It could be 30 degrees, windy, and freezing rain in east Vancouver, WA or Camas, WA and at the same time, if I go 5 miles west along the river, to downtown Vancouver, or 5 miles north, it could be 10 degrees warmer and raining.

My point is, this area is one of the places that to this day, you can see the results of the Missoula floods. Who knows how this and the continuing climate influence affected garter snakes and their genetic inheritance.

And now for the geology:

The area was under hundreds of feet of solid ice which compressed the strata beneath the ice. Then the ice age ended and catastrophic floods followed.

You might have heard of how rounded huge boulders got scattered on an otherwise flat eastern washington.(the floods) but that's not the only place they exist. The boulders also exist in Western WA close to the river except that most of those boulders are buried. Not all of them though!

Take a look at these pictures I took. This is Clark Co. WA where the terrain drops off steeply in elevation when you approach the columbia river just east of I-205:

My backpack sitting atop a huge boulder. The terrain drops off steeply and is close to the columbia river.
http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/692/gedc1653medium.jpg

The entire drop-off point where the terrain descends steeply is strown with these huge boulders. The rock itself was formed by enormous pressure from ice. When the ice age ended, the biblical proportions of water and sheer force, smoothed them to a rounded appearance and moved many of them hundreds of miles until they were deposited here.

Just a few feet away I find this. Very interesting. It clearly shows the layering created by pressure under ice. These rocks were formed right where they stand, and then later separated by freeze/thaw and then upturned by flood water.

http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/7696/gedc1658small.jpg

I know I got off on a tangent about geology but this is relatively recent geology and it has a direct effect on the snakes we are talking about!

This area (Where the Columbia river meets the Willamette river) is just different then most of the area within concinnus' range. And so, the snakes that remain here are different too!:D

As if that weren't thought-provoking enough, the area where I find the anery's and many other concinnus morphs is separated from the northern willamette valley by Portland's West Hills.(a mini mountain range) Yet another geological history and physical barrier separating the gene pool.

Fascinating stuff.:)

[kibakiba]

Yeah my mom said something about the little blush thing, but she said it seems like Ember may be too girly, he's stealing all his sisters blush and using it for himself ;) Seems a lot like a valid statement since he's so red and she's very white with little red bt both are extremely beautiful how they are.

[ConcinusMan]

Just thought I'd share another email I got from Robert Mason yesterday:

MY INQUIRY To Bob Mason, Professor of Zoology, Oregon State University:

If there's any garter one garter snake species that is studied the most, I guess it would be Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis. One quick question:

(regarding the mystery of where first year baby garter snakes T.sirtalis ssp. spend the winter) Have you guys figured out where the first year babies go? I ask because I never see very small snakes when concinnus' emerge. I see youngsters (probably no more than a year old judging from their size) in late summer and fall, but never in the spring where and when the adults emerge. I always wondered about that.



BOB MASON (of Mason Labs) Publications | Mason Lab (http://masonlab.science.oregonstate.edu/publications)

Robert T. Mason

Professor of Zoology

J.C. Braly Curator of Vertebrates

Chair, Biology Program

3029 Cordley Hall

Oregon State University

Corvallis, OR 97331-2914

His reply:

You have hit upon one of the great mysteries of garter snakes and especially the T.s.p. in Manitoba. I estimate that there are somewhere around 250,000 baby garter snakes born in just our little region of Manitoba, and yet each spring there isn’t a single baby in the dens! Where do they go to survive -50 degree temperatures for several months?? All kinds of theories abound including going down ant nests, gopher holes, freezing at the bottom of ponds, etc. However, no one can ever come up with the proof. Here in Oregon we do see young of the year hibernating with adults but that is just under cover boards, small holes and the like. So, this isn’t as much of a mystery. I don’t know how to help you find them in the spring. I think you just have to flip a lot of old boards and tin!

Thanks for writing.

Bob

[Stefan-A]

Well, if they're anything like our vipers (whose babies rarely spend the winter with adults), they might be in and under tree stumps, roots, railroad banks, hummocks in marshlands, stony hillsides, grassy hillocks and stony soil.

Partially quoting a 1967 article on Hibernation and seasonal movements of the viper, Viperaa [sic] berus berus (L.), in southern Finland

[ConcinusMan]

Well yeah, I see adults even in winter when it's quite cold, basking on top of warm rotting stumps so I'm sure that's why they are so concentrated in a fairly densely forested area in early spring. I just never see babies until shortly after or during the birthing season. Surely they don't reach adult size so fast?(by their first winter/spring)

The snakes move out of the forest and into the surrounding open wetlands in late spring or early summer. My point is, yes, the adults definitely spend the winter in and around rotting stumps and root balls of fallen trees but I never see babies until late summer!

Oh, and BTW, I'm definitely going to check out that rocky area pictured above, first thing in the spring. Looks promising, and perfect place to find ringneck snakes.

[ConcinusMan]

Then I write back, replying to the last email he sent:

-------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for the quick response and input. It really means a lot to us that are not necessarily higher-educated, but are very interested in the subject matter. I always loved biology and sciences of all kinds since I was just a child. (I'm 40 now) In particular, I am fascinated by "herps" and the ecosystems that support them. I can tell you something that you may already know, but maybe you haven't observed first-hand. I believe that field observations from amateur herpetologists, or hobbyists can be valuable so here's my two cents worth...

I noticed that within, or near, [insert location here] in NW Oregon, I can observe T. ordinoides and T. s. concinnus adults emerging and basking on fallen rotting trees even when the ambient air temperature is barley 50 degrees F and it seems way too early in the season for reptiles. Sometimes I see T. ordinoides when it's only in the upper 40's around late Jan or Feb. (some of those T. ordinoides are already gravid) This is also a place where a great explosion of garter snakes (the ground and forest floor is just teeming with snakes) happens when the area gets it's first 70 plus degree days in the spring.

Anyway, my point is, those rotting stumps and logs. That's where the snakes congregate in late winter or very early and cold spring. Maybe, just maybe, the warmth from the decomposing wood and the hollows within is where the little one's hide too? I know that rotting logs provide warmth and shelter for adults but maybe I'm just missing the babies. I can actually see water vapor rising from those logs in late winter, and on mild winter days, there's snakes on top of those rotting logs, even if it's pretty darn cold and cloudy outside!

Seriously, that place is something special. I cannot adequately describe what happens there in the first few days of 70 degree weather in the spring. In one particular area near the north border you can find thousands of T. ordinoides mating, makes the ground "come alive". I mean, it's the closest thing to the Manitoba dens I have ever witnessed. It only lasts a week or two before the spectacle is for the most part, over. A little while later, and warmer (usually) there are T. s. concinnus female adults zipping around the forest floor, with several males in pursuit, putting on quite a show for human visitors. These T.s. concinnus include hypoerythristics, completely anerythristic (black and white concinnus') Blue/green colored concinnus' that completely lack red, orange or yellow and basically look like blue/green puget garters but have concinnus patterns. Of course there are also normal concinnus' typical of Oregon's Willamette Valley. I've never seen such variety in color and patterns in wild concinnus' in just one place ever before.

Please look at the attached photo's of just three specimens that, in their color, represent at least 1/3 of the snakes found in that area. Amazing considering these are definitely T.s concinnus'. Oregon "RED" spotted garter snake? There's no red! There's no "typical" coloration at all. They are black and white or blue and black, bright orange, or something in between. These snakes I am showing you are found very close to and/or within the area, all within the same population. The first pic is actually an orange specimen, but a very weird shade of orange for a concinnus. The second pic is just... well, a picture is worth a thousand words. The third picture speaks for itself. Weird. Very blue, very weird but most definitely a Thamnophis sirtalis concinnus. I apologize for being perhaps overenthusiastic about a few garter snakes but these are just so astonishing to me!

__________________________________________________ ___________

Bob Mason writes back:

You hit the nail on the head again. I have always enjoyed talking and communicating with the “lay” herpetologists because they are a treasure-trove of information. Having advanced degrees is no substitute for a keen eye and enthusiasm! I share your enthusiasm and just love working with garter snakes. My father still says that I’m his boy that never grew up and he’s right! I think your thinking on the logs is very much on the mark. I wouldn’t be surprised at all if they were hibernating in the logs and maybe the young ones go deeper, or are just harder to see or whatever. Somehow, they come out in the “winter” and they can’t be far from their hibernaculum because when the cold returns they vanish. We see the same things down here in the mid-valley. You don’t see that in Manitoba as it is bitterly cold in the winter even in the thaw.
I’m actually very interested in your observations of the mating in the spring with T.o.’s and T.s.c.’s I have a student here now who is interested in working on the pheromones of both of those species and although they both occur here, we don’t have sites with lots of them. I wonder if you’d be willing to take us out in the field this early spring to see that spectacle??

As for the color morphs, the photos are spectacular and we’ve seen these morphs before. All I can say is that there is a great deal of color variation in both of these species. I might add that there is much more variation than what we see in T.s. parietalis in Manitoba even though there are far more up there in those populations. I don’t know of anyone who is working on this problem but it would be interesting to figure out what is going on. I’m afraid that is a bit out of my area but there might be a student who would come along and be interested.
And finally, just for the record. There is an amateur herpetologist down here that has worked in our lab and we’ve helped him out even though he is older than me and a retired school teacher. His name is Richard Hoyer and he is definitely the world’s expert on rubber boas and then more recently sharp-tailed snakes. He found some populations of sharp-tails with very long tails and he was convinced that they were a different species. We helped him with some of his studies and especially the statistical analyses he needed to do to prove his case. All the professional herpetologist said he was mistaken and all wet. Well, we helped him send some tissue samples to the molecular biology types and sure enough, they are definitely a different species and his work is now published. So, if he had listened to the pros, this work would never have seen the light of day and those two species were in the museum collections of virtually every major collection and all the west coast universities and none of us professors ever saw what was plainly right in front of us! The point is, keep up your enthusiasm and observations and you could be just like Richard!
Best wishes,
Bob

Robert T. Mason
Professor of Zoology
J.C. Braly Curator of Vertebrates
Chair, Biology Program
3029 Cordley Hall
Oregon State University
Corvallis, OR 97331-2914
ph: 541-737-4107
fax: 541-737-0501
masonr@science.oregonstate.edu

__________________________________________________ _______________

Of course, I accepted and I will take that student out there this coming spring.:D

[ConcinusMan]

Oops. Just realized he said "us" so I guess I'll be taking Bob Mason and his student out there to see the snakes emerge next spring. That should be fun. Garter snake herping with Robert Mason himself. Cool.

[Stefan-A]

Why does the name "Richard Hoyer" ring a bell?

[ConcinusMan]

Why does the name "Richard Hoyer" ring a bell?

Doesn't surprise me at all considering I've read that name in many articles, one specific thing I was reading about that involved him was the discovery of a new species of sharp tailed snake, which was mentioned in the email. Have you done any reading about rubber boas?

[Stefan-A]

Doesn't surprise me at all considering I've read that name in many articles, one specific thing I was reading about that involved him was the discovery of a new species of sharp tailed snake, which was mentioned in the email.
He's been mentioned twice on this forum before, apparently some of our formerly active members know him or know of him.

I could have sworn that I had seen that name in a profile here.


Have you done any reading about rubber boas?Practically nothing.

[ConcinusMan]

He's been mentioned twice on this forum before, apparently some of our formerly active members know him or know of him.

I could have sworn that I had seen that name in a profile here.



Wouldn't surprise me one bit if he has joined and/or participated in this forum.

Also doesn't surprise me that the name sounds familiar. I mean, practically all of us know who Robert Mason is, and Richard Hoyer has been working with him, or at his lab, for years.

[Electrokate]

That is all very cool. I breed mainly fish, have no degree but a lot of reading, and have found in certain areas the scientific community has no problem with lay people putting our hands in to contribute. Some are nicer than others though. I work mainly with killifish and reef tanks.
I live in SE Portland. I found some nice ordinoides and Concinnus in the area that is being restored where Foster meets Johnson Creek. It's good to see, and the city has school kids learning to do studies of herps and other animals in this spot. I hope people don't mess with the snakes.
I am guessing you will probably say no but I would love to come photograph the snakes this spring. But I understand if you want to keep this location secret. I would.
When I was new to garters I saw a HUGE black and blue garter near Chehalis. Intense sky blue. I thought it was a morph of ordinoides but now wonder. I watched her for a while, she was majestic and very pregnant. Hope her offspring are around. Am guessing she is not, the experienced herp people said they were all pretty heavily parasitized.
Kate

[kibakiba]

It was probably a puget garter snake. They are blue. I have seen blue ordinoides but they weren't ever really intense. Compared to a puget garter, it was really dull.

[ssssnakeluvr]

Why does the name "Richard Hoyer" ring a bell?
he is the expert on rubber boas.... he lives here in Utah, along with his son Ryan, who breed various mtn kings. you won't find them on this forum... or much on the internet anymore, had some legal issues here. Ryan has the website, www.rubberboas.com (http://www.rubberboas.com) has some excellent info on them!

[Stefan-A]

he is the expert on rubber boas.... he lives here in Utah, along with his son Ryan, who breed various mtn kings. you won't find them on this forum... or much on the internet anymore, had some legal issues here. Ryan has the website, www.rubberboas.com (http://www.rubberboas.com) has some excellent info on them!
Okay, thanks.

[Electrokate]

How far south does the Puget Sound garter go?
Thanks,
Kate

[ConcinusMan]

As the name indicates, they are never very far from the Puget Sound. Personally, I have never seen one as far south as Chehalis but maps indicate that is as far south as they go. I lived there for a couple of years and did a lot of herping but never saw pugets there. Had to get close to Olympia before I found any.

[ConcinusMan]

The time is near. Dr. Robert Mason and his undergraduate students are going to try to make it up here next week and meet with me. Weather should be favorable for herping. We'll be visiting the den site. What an honor. Can't wait.

Study Species | Mason Lab (http://masonlab.science.oregonstate.edu/index)

[Spankenstyne]

Very cool Richard, it's fun helping out on the research end.