A question about T. gigas

[Mexicofan]

Hello,

why no one is keeping and breeding Thamnophis gigas? Are they protected by law???

Who can tell me more?

[Stefan-A]

Endangered, no individuals on the market, too late to start collecting.

[ssssnakeluvr]

yes, protected by law and endangered

[Tendriana]

From my understanding they are "Threatened," but not yet endangered.

I live in Roseville, CA (Near sacramento) and recently found what I think is a T. gigas in my yard. Coloring-wise, it looks like a T. gigas, T. elegans elegans, or T. atratus zaxanthus. However, elegans' range is more mountains, and zaxanthus is closer to the coast. It is a juvenile, only about a foot long, and a little thicker than a pencil. I didn't know whether or not to leave him alone, but when I went inside and read that T. gigas are threatened, I felt uncomfortable leaving him out in our yard, which is large (1.5 acre) and very exposed/open. We are starting to have frost-nights here in Sacramento, and leaving him exposed to the weather made me feel uncomfortable, not to mention the copious hawks and predators in our area (not to mention our 3 indoor/outdoor cats). The pervasive tree-frogs that are around in the summer have disappeared, and there is no standing water nearby to supply him with tadpole/amphibian/fish meals. In fact, I'm somewhat surprised to have found him, and wondering now if he's learned to eat slugs or something like that.

We originally found him 10/19/10, hiding under a pot. I went inside to research what snake it was, and when I came back, he was gone. On 10/31/10 my dog ran out side and started woofing around our patio - and I saw the snake again sitting out on the concrete. This time I picked him up (He was mildly vexed, but didn't try to bite, nor released anything from his glands.) I brought him inside, put him in a 10 gal terrarium for now. I am planning to keep him over the winter, to give him a chance to grow. When he's grown a bit, and the temps warm up outside, I plan to release him. Currently in the 10 gal, I have a heating mat under one side, newspaper pellets as bedding, and a water bowl. I threw in some paper towels and a cardboard tube for hiding. Within a few minutes he had crawled under a towel on the warm side of the cage, and seemed content. This morning the small water bowl was pretty much drained, so I'm assuming he was drinking alot, or maybe the paper towels managed to soak some up. Tonight I'm going to stop by the petstore, pick up nightcrawlers and some minnows. Hopefully he will take to eating these, though I'm also willing to try the homemade frozen mix recipe I found online. Willing to do pinkies at some point - but right now he's just too small, and I'm squeamish about cutting up pinkie parts (I know, I'm a wimp, forgive me.)

My concern - being a threatened species, am I doing the right thing? I'm assuming there's some sort of legal prohibition against keeping threatened species - does anyone know what this would be? Again, I don't plan to breed/sell him (or her), and I don't plan on keeping him in captivity forever... Just want to give him a fighting chance for next year.

Also - although I'm PRETTY sure he's T. gigas, based on coloring and location, there's a small chance he's T. elegans elegans/ Mountain Garter Snake, as I've read there's a small population in Sacramento. Anyone know how to tell the juveniles apart? Obviously a full grown T. gigas will be MUCH bigger than an adult Mountain GS, but as this guy is very young, it's hard to tell. Gonna try to get a close pic of him tonight, to try to count labial scales.

Any advice will be much appreciated! If it seems like I can't get him to eat, and I'm worried about his survival, I plan to take him to Sacramento Zoo - they have a T.gigas there, and supposedly work with Fish and Wildlife to monitor these guys.

One decent pic of him: http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r297/tendriana/Stuff%20to%20post%20for%20other%20people/IMG_1824.jpg

Another from the front: http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r297/tendriana/Stuff%20to%20post%20for%20other%20people/IMG_1793.jpg

I sure need a better zoom camera.

Thanks!

[Stefan-A]

As usual, my recommendation would have been: Don't intervene.

[mustang]

lucky! i want to see one!

[Tendriana]

Stefan - You are probably right.


Robert - I posted two links to the only photos I've taken so far - I will post more as I take them! Again, I'm not 100% positive it's T. gigas.... just prettyi sure. :)

[Tendriana]

Came home tonight and checked in on my new buddy. He's VERY active, constantly tasting the air, and really not a fan of me getting my hands close to him. :) I managed to snap a few more pictures, and now I'm seriously wondering if it actually is a T. gigas... looking at his upper labial scales, #6 and #7 look Enlarged, and very similar in size. More like a T. elegans elegans. From what I read online, T. gigas tend to have a smaller #6 than #7. If he is an e.elegans/Mountain Garter... he's pretty low in elevation for his species, which are usually more in the Sierras. However, I did read that there is a small population in Sac.

Anyone else want to take a look at these pics and help me identify? His lateral stripes are there, but blend in very well to his pale yellowy-grey belly - no dark break between the laterals and belly.

http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r297/tendriana/Stuff%20to%20post%20for%20other%20people/DSCN0314.jpg

http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r297/tendriana/Stuff%20to%20post%20for%20other%20people/DSCN0317.jpg

http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r297/tendriana/Stuff%20to%20post%20for%20other%20people/thamnophis1.jpg

[mustang]

Stefan - You are probably right.


Robert - I posted two links to the only photos I've taken so far - I will post more as I take them! Again, I'm not 100% positive it's T. gigas.... just prettyi sure. :)
i ment in person:D

[Tendriana]

Ahh, got it! :)

Well, looks strongly that maybe the only one I've seen was at the zoo....

[mustang]

ya...

[kibakiba]

Wow, he is a beauty! I don't blame you for wanting to keep him, I would too! I love that orange-y stripe on him :D

[ssssnakeluvr]

orange stripe is more zaxanthus.... possibly mountain. I don't think it's a gigas....at that size his eyes would be bigger, would be a juvenile.... as garters get older, the eyes tend to be smaller in relation to head size...

[zooplan]

@Don Thats sounds like an educated guess!

Counting vertebral scale rows might give another hint,
two preoculars occur in all three species, two postoculars are described only for T.gigas.
There are not a lot of significant differences but the adult size.

[ConcinusMan]

As usual, my recommendation would have been: Don't intervene.

True. You should have just let the snake be. However, HOLY CRAP! GIMMIE THAT SNAKE!

That is definitely NOT a T. gigas.

@ Tendriana: That is a T. a. zaxanthus and I want it. PM me please. It will be worth your while.

Sorry guys, I really want it.:o

Here's another T. a. zaxanthus that is very stunning and I always admired this particular specimen:

http://www.californiaherps.com/snakes/images/tazaxanthusmt3.jpg

More info on the species:

Thamnophis atratus zaxanthus - Diablo Range Gartersnake (http://www.californiaherps.com/snakes/pages/t.a.zaxanthus.html)

[Tendriana]

Thanks everyone!

Kibakiba - Thank you - I agree, he's gorgeous! The little garters we used to find as kids down in southern california were never so colorful and pretty!

Don - Thanks for the info about eye size - good to know! I know the orange is often found in zaxanthus, but I've also read that you can find it on mountains and giants too (though on giants it's usually towards the northern end of their range, while the farther south giants have much less color.)

Zooplan - I want to count the verticals... but i'm still confused on exactly how to do it. Plus this snake is still super antsy and uncomfortable with being held, I don't want to stress him out by holding him down long enough to count. :)

ConcinnusMan - While at first I thought it was a zaxanthus as well, their range is NOT where I live - their range is much more towards the coast, whereas I live very close to the Sierras. Yes, there's a chance some stray zaxanthus's came all the way out this way. But I compared the zaxanthus vs. e. elegans vs. gigas Upper Labials and came to the conclusion that it's gotta be a elegans or gigas, definitely not Zax. My guy's 6th and 7th upper labials are enlarged - indicitive of elegans or gigas, but not zax. Also, zax internasals are longer than wide, and have pointed fronts... whereas my guy has wide non-pointed internasals, which again are elegans or gigas. Are you interested in zaxanthus in particular, or e. elegans as well? Your picture of a zax is BEAUTIFUL by the way!

[ssssnakeluvr]

with your info on the range, I would say mountain.... I think I have seen a pic or 2 with brighter orange stripes.... would love a couple for breeding :rolleyes: my trio isn't quite breeding size and the orange isn't quite as bright, but still, they are awesome snakes! :cool:

[ConcinusMan]

ConcinnusMan - While at first I thought it was a zaxanthus as well, their range is NOT where I live - their range is much more towards the coast, whereas I live very close to the Sierras. Yes, there's a chance some stray zaxanthus's came all the way out this way. But I compared the zaxanthus vs. e. elegans vs. gigas Upper Labials and came to the conclusion that it's gotta be a elegans or gigas, definitely not Zax. My guy's 6th and 7th upper labials are enlarged - indicitive of elegans or gigas, but not zax. Also, zax internasals are longer than wide, and have pointed fronts... whereas my guy has wide non-pointed internasals, which again are elegans or gigas. Are you interested in zaxanthus in particular, or e. elegans as well? Your picture of a zax is BEAUTIFUL by the way!

I too, am aware of the range maps and saw that this could possibly be a T. elegans, (mountain garter) and I'm aware that if you're going by range maps, then the most likely candidate would be T. elegans based on the "sacramento area" locale where you found the snake.

So, now that we have collaborated, maybe it's safe to assume that it is a T. elegans (mountain garter) since you are close to the Sierra's. I've seen and caught plenty of T. gigas in the San Joaquin Valley to think that this is NOT a T. gigas. If it is, it's not very typical at all. The head shape, and eyes just don't quite fit.

And, no.. it doesn't matter to me what species it is since I have no plans to breed it. I simply find it to be an absolutely stunning natural garter snake morph. I don't care if it's a particular species or subspecies. I just know I like the look of it and would love to have it as part of my family. If you want to keep it, then of course, I support that, provided that it is not a T. gigas. If it is a T. gigas, then I suggest contacting local authorities for your final move regarding this snake so that the right thing can be done to return this snake to it's habitat.

Take your time and be sure of what it is. I'm just saying that I would really love to have it, T. elegans, or T. a. zaxanthus.

I am not far from "Mountain Garters" myself. Have you seen the Willamette Valley (Oregon) variation of the mountain garter? Simply stunning!

But yeah.. I can see where there would be confusion. T. elegans (mountain garter) subspecies:

http://fotosa.ru/stock_photo/Corbis_RF/p_2492623.jpg

Gorgeous snake!

[zooplan]

Zooplan - I want to count the verticals... but i'm still confused on exactly how to do it. Plus this snake is still super antsy and uncomfortable with being held, I don't want to stress him out by holding him down long enough to count. :)


Take a close up picture of the side/back, for the edge of the ventral shields to the vertebral stripe, than you´ll get all needed time for counting without stressing the snake.Both sides will have the same number of scale rows:eek:! Or put him in an empty glas tank and take a picture of the vent to count ventral shields and subcaudal scales.

[ConcinusMan]

Good advice. That's how it's done.;) Has anyone seen the "Willamette Valley" variation of the Mountain Garter Snake? Stunning! (pictured in the book "Reptiles of the Northwest")

I hope to have a pair someday.

[Tendriana]

Thanks everyone for the info. I'll try some scale counts tomorrow!

ConcinnusMan - I'm more and more sure every day that it's t. elegans. I will take him to the Sac Zoo just to be 100% sure he's not t. gigas. I think that for now I'll be keeping him if he's t. elegans. However, if at some point I think that I'd rather someone else care for him, I will definitely let you know! That picture of the subspecies you posted, it is indeed wonderful, and looks exactly like my snake, except mine's dorsal stripe is slightly oranger.

Thanks again everyone, I know where to come back to when I need more advice. :)

[ConcinusMan]

Well, shoot. I tried. That snake just makes me drool with envy, I want it so bad.

[mustang]

Well, shoot. I tried. That snake just makes me drool with envy, I want it so bad.
down boy:p

[kibakiba]

Men... Ugh. :rolleyes:

[zooplan]

I must be a lucky man, that I need not wonder about aquiring or adopt any of those wild caught or rescued snakes, because I´m living too far away;)
I really enjoy to grin, LOL or ROFL about those longing post :p !!!

[ssssnakeluvr]

I must be a lucky man, that I need not wonder about aquiring or adopt any of those wild caught or rescued snakes, because I´m living too far away;)


I really enjoy to grin, LOL or ROFL about those longing post :p !!!

well....guess we are even then......we are dieing over here to have tetrataenia ;)

[zooplan]

you should place petitions to legalize keeping CB ´tetrataenia
I would be happy if I´ll get permission to send some over the pond

[mustang]

Men... Ugh. :rolleyes:
men WHAT !?:rolleyes:

[ssssnakeluvr]

you should place petitions to legalize keeping CB ´tetrataenia
I would be happy if I´ll get permission to send some over the pond
Yea...love the idea, but would be an uphill battle....kinda like climbing a glass wall barehanded...the government here is a pain regarding this type of thing

[zooplan]

men WHAT !?:rolleyes:
ugh... you have never read Terry Pratched, did you?:D

how can I blow up this emoticon?