where,s best

[PINJOHN]

for a number of years now i have had a dream [more of a fantasy really] of coming to America and spending the whole time herping for garters this dream has been further fuelled by the threads i read from members who go out and come across unusual coloured snakes and ones of large size and so forth.
this got me wondering about which part of the USA is the most prolific that is to say which state or area has the most species/sub species occurring in it.
i am sure that quit a few of you will be arguing for your state so lets keep it a clean fight no gouging, biting, or hitting below the belt, [ and please keep the stories of your herping adventures coming in ]

[guidofatherof5]

I think much depends on the time of the year. This year at the Ranch we had a cool Spring and went right into very hot Summer. During the Spring I had a large number of snakes but once the heat hit they were gone. As Fall arrives they will be coming back towards the den under my deck(I hope).
I was out herping on Sunday looking for T.s.parietalis(Red Sided Garter snakes) and didn't see a single one. Once again the heat was playing a part in that. I think Spring and Fall in any good garter snake herping area is best.

[BUSHSNAKE]

The west coast from Wasington down to California starting with fitchi then into pickeringii, concinnus, infernalis,atratus,elegans then down to hammondi and i forgot about ordinoides

[Odie]

Being from Oregon, this realy hurts, California :o

[Selkielass]

Michigan has a nice variety of garters and almost garters- Easterns, Butlers, ribbon snakes, Dekayi, ring-neck snakes, Eastern Hognose and a number of less garter like snakes.
DNR - Michigan's Snakes (http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10370_12145_12201-61219--,00.html)
Many may be legally collected in small numbers. (Up to 6 total. see above web page.)

These people; index (http://www.teamreptile.com/index.html)
Have done camps and educational programs on reptiles in the past- if you contact them they might be willing/able to act as herping guides. (It seems to have been what their camps were about.)

Windsor/ Canada is a short drive away with a relatively open border, and Ohio and Illinois are only a few hours drive away- may the right contacts and you might be able go go herping for Chicago garters, then Catch a show in Chicago itself. (Chicago is a pleasant 5 hour drive from Detroit.)

[kibakiba]

Never forget the ordinoides! They are wonderful garters. So beautiful :D So are the concinnus, and all the other garters... :D

[ConcinusMan]

Western Washington and Oregon have T.s concinnus, T. ordinoides (in great many variations) and T. elegans. The east side (desert side) of those two states has T.s. fitchi mostly

Oh, and let's not forget about the Puget sound area. You know what's around there.

I am curious though, where in the USA can you find the most species/subspecies of garter snakes in one place. I wonder.

[New Mutant]

Is Kansas a good place for garters?

[guidofatherof5]

Here's the range of T.sirtalis and its subspecies as described on page 263 of "The Garter Snake-Evolution and Ecology by Douglas A.Rossman, Neil B. Ford and Richard A. Seigel
I've seen some beautiful high red parietalis's come out of Kansas.
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/tsp_range.jpg

[ConcinusMan]

There it is again. That L.A. area range for T.s. concinnus. It doesn't exist. Never did, so why do keep finding this on maps I wonder.

[Mommy2many]

It appears to me that you guys out west are the lucky recipients of the most variations of the garter species. I may be wrong...

[ConcinusMan]

We could perhaps even have the most variation in a single species (or even the same population of that species). (T. ordinoides)

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

I spend most of my time herping in Humboldt and Del Norte Counties in NW California.

Concinnusman ain't joking about T. ordinoides variation. The Northwesterns in Northern Humboldt are really dull, whereas the ones in Del Norte County come in yellow stripe, white-stripe, orange-stripe, peach-stripe, red-stripe; with black, brown, gray, red, and burgundy backgrounds; with or without patterns or stripes; and with or without red or orange dorsal and/or ventral flecking. Many also mimic the patterns and colors of local T. elegans and T. a. hydrophilus. I hear you get blues further north...

Also, we have various morphs of the Mountain and Coast Garter clade (T. e. terrestris has been absorbed into the T. e. elegans sub-special clade, but at present, the Humboldt sample is still anomalous.)

Additionally, Northern Humboldt is in an intergrade zone between T. s. infernalis and T. s. fitchi.

Forty-five minutes inland, we have the Oregon Garter (T. a. hydrophilus.)

Other herps found throughout the many habitats of this bioregion include:

Northwestern Ring-necked Snake
California Kingsnake
California Mountain Kingsnake
Pacific Gopher Snake
Northern Pacific Rattlesnake
Rubber Boa
Sharp-tailed Snake
Western Yellow-bellied Racer

Northwestern Fence Lizard
Northern Sagebrush Lizard
Oregon Alligator Lizard (ssp of E. multicarinata)
Shasta Alligator Lizard & Northwestern Alligator Lizard (ssp of E. coerulea)
Skilton Skink

You can go to HumboldtHerps.com (Natives) for the list on amphibians...

April and May are the hot months for sightings, but you can see kings, gophers, racers, and rattlers active into summer, especially near shaded watersheds during the day, and out and about in the morning and early evening. Oregon Garters are active all summer long. Valley Garters are summer-active only in the upper mountain lakes and ponds. Rubber Boas, Ring-necks, and Sharp-tails are best found in April and October.

[ConcinusMan]

I have spent time in N cali and also got to do a lot of herping. Where you are is no doubt an excellent area for all kinds of herps, including garters. One that really stands out in my memory is catching some huge and fugly T. elegans near some cold-running rivers. Man those things did not appreciate being grabbed one bit. A big one would almost always just bite the heck out of me, draw blood and the musk? OMG!

That's one garter (in those counties) that always produced a reaction when I got bit. I mean, they drool a lot and break the skin.

[guidofatherof5]

I spend most of my time herping in Humboldt and Del Norte Counties in NW California.

Concinnusman ain't joking about T. ordinoides variation. The Northwesterns in Northern Humboldt are really dull, whereas the ones in Del Norte County come in yellow stripe, white-stripe, orange-stripe, peach-stripe, red-stripe; with black, brown, gray, red, and burgundy backgrounds; with or without patterns or stripes; and with or without red or orange dorsal and/or ventral flecking. Many also mimic the patterns and colors of local T. elegans and T. a. hydrophilus. I hear you get blues further north...

Also, we have various morphs of the Mountain and Coast Garter clade (T. e. terrestris has been absorbed into the T. e. elegans sub-special clade, but at present, the Humboldt sample is still anomalous.)

Additionally, Northern Humboldt is in an intergrade zone between T. s. infernalis and T. s. fitchi.

Forty-five minutes inland, we have the Oregon Garter (T. a. hydrophilus.)

Other herps found throughout the many habitats of this bioregion include:

Northwestern Ring-necked Snake
California Kingsnake
California Mountain Kingsnake
Pacific Gopher Snake
Northern Pacific Rattlesnake
Rubber Boa
Sharp-tailed Snake
Western Yellow-bellied Racer

Northwestern Fence Lizard
Northern Sagebrush Lizard
Oregon Alligator Lizard (ssp of E. multicarinata)
Shasta Alligator Lizard & Northwestern Alligator Lizard (ssp of E. coerulea)
Skilton Skink

You can go to HumboldtHerps.com (Natives) for the list on amphibians...

April and May are the hot months for sightings, but you can see kings, gophers, racers, and rattlers active into summer, especially near shaded watersheds during the day, and out and about in the morning and early evening. Oregon Garters are active all summer long. Valley Garters are summer-active only in the upper mountain lakes and ponds. Rubber Boas, Ring-necks, and Sharp-tails are best found in April and October.

Great rundown. Thanks for taking the time to post it.;)
Great variety in your area.

[PINJOHN]

i echo steves thanks to all who took the time to list their local garters , to say it was very interesting is a massive understatement . but please dont forget to let us know about your herping adventures. for those of us in europe and even i suppose American enthusiasts who live in big citys these tales are the stuff of dreams, so any memorable trips or even ones you might be planning would be really appreciated

[ConcinusMan]

Well, I only have two garters where I live but the one sirtalis is t.s. concinnus so if you're only going to have one that is a wonderful one to have. Of course T. ordinoides can be found almost anywhere whereas concinnus are kind of limited to certain habitats near water or wetlands. The thing about the ordinoides though is one population is never the same as another, even if it's only say 5 miles apart. One area can have mostly dull boring one's and another area can be mostly brightly colored yellow, red, or orange striped. Kinda fun to go around to different areas and see all the variety of patterns and colors in this single species.

I only have to drive about 30 miles east through the columbia river gorge and you leave concinnus' range and start finding very pretty T.s. fitchii and if I drive about an hour north I run into blue pugets.

[kibakiba]

Ordinoides are never boring! They're all beautiful. Even Mama who's dull brown and cream, or Runt who's light brown and a bit darker cream... I cant say what Tiny is.. it's a newborn but... Ordinoides are all pretty. Pffft.

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah, yeah, I know. It's just that when you've seen them all your life, perhaps hundreds of thousands of them, you do notice that most are so... well... ordinary... while few others are just so extraordinary.

That's the thing with the species. So ordinary and yet so much potential for finding fantastic looking extraordiary individuals. Perhaps even "one of a kind" northwestern snakes out there. They are an underappreciated species for the most part. Great potential for finding and/or creating by captive breeding, some very interesting and unusual individuals.

Amazing looking or plain, they really do make awesome pets.:D

[kibakiba]

Indeed, I'm happy with mine. They've calmed down faster than my concinnus :P I got Tiny a week ago and it's already trying to slither on me at all times and never wants to go back in the tank. Runts always been skittish but maybe that's just how her personality is. Tiny and Ember are the tamest snakes I have, though Tiny is more tame than Ember. Rarely protest with getting picked up :D

[ConcinusMan]

It's good you notice these details. It's really up to the keeper to get to know each snake. That way they can know when something isn't right with them.

[Spankenstyne]

Here's a couple with the 2003 revisions in the Petersons field guide. You can see here they have fixed the concinnus range:

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj267/spankenstyne/Thamnophis/tr1a.jpg

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj267/spankenstyne/Thamnophis/tr1b.jpg

[ConcinusMan]

Here's a couple with the 2003 revisions in the Petersons field guide. You can see here they have fixed the concinnus range:

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj267/spankenstyne/Thamnophis/tr1a.jpg

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj267/spankenstyne/Thamnophis/tr1b.jpg

I think the concinnus range is dead on. That is the true range. Keep in mind they are a bit limited in the habitats they can inhabit within that range and so are confined to those habitats, namely waterways(ponds, creeks, rivers, lakes) and wetlands and rarely stray more than 1/2 mile from those watery habitats.

Also, for the most part, from what I've observed personally, the valley garter's range doesn't actually go right up against concinnus' range.(there are very few exceptions) For example, in southern Washington along the columbia river (separates OR & WA) Valley garters only occur east of the Cascade range so that separates the two subspecies ranges. The only exception that I know personally would be within the columbia river gorge, which cuts through the mountains. There, if you travel east through the gorge, fitchii range begins before you get to the mountains, and it overlaps concinnus range only slightly. And in Oregon, in spite of the valley garters name, it doesn't occur in the willamette valley that I've ever seen. That area is concinnus territory. Again, fitchii is mainly confined to the east side, which is a somewhat desert climate and so the range of fitchii doesn't actually touch concinnus range in the willamette valley. You have to go east and cross mountains (leave concinnus territory) and once you enter the rain shadow of the east side of the mountains, you start finding fitchii.

The map doesn't show the separation of concinnus and fitchii ranges but it does exist. Pretty darn good maps though, I would say.

[New Mutant]

I've seen some beautiful high red parietalis's come out of Kansas.


I saw one squished by the side of the road today while I was on a walk. It was barely recognizeable, but I saw some red scales on its side.

[guidofatherof5]

I saw one squished by the side of the road today while I was on a walk. It was barely recognizeable, but I saw some red scales on its side.


That's not the one I was talking about:D

[ConcinusMan]

D'OH!

Is this light-hearted humor from Steve, in the wake of tragic news?

There's hope for you yet!

:p