PICTURES- Hypo Checkereds!

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Guys, I had NO idea my female albino checkered was gravid. NONE! Matter of fact, when I brumated my snakes this year I did not even attempt to pair her other than putting her in with my hypo male (who is also the father to a clutch that I am still expecting)for ONE night. She has remained fit and trim the whole season and today I discovered while on poop patrol that I had a surprise clutch of babies. It's a small clutch, and two of the albinos went into the freezer because they were severely kinked.... these were the first kinked babies I have ever had! There was also a stillborn albino and I have one normal baby that is a runt, stumpy and with an undersized head. We will see about him... But the good news is that I have One healthy normal, Two healthy albinos (meaning that my male hypo is surprise het for albino) FOUR healthy extremely bright hypo's and one hypo albino. One of the kinked babies was also a hybino...

BUT all in all this is a fantastic surprise and the little ones are just stunning. The hypos are SO much brighter than my male was as a baby that I am wondering now if my female albino isn't contributing something as well. I will have to examine her more closely, the only reason I have her is because she has much more yellow/orange areas than most of the albino checkereds... and I noticed a similar effect between the hybino and his normal albino siblings.

Now I am just so anxious to see what is going to come out of Marcy! She is already so bright and green herself, I can only imagine that her babies in hypo form are going to be phenomenal. My male is only an 09 and I am surprised that he was able to get the job done so well!

Here are the babies!

Here is the darkest headed hypo with his normal sister... look at the difference!
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll86/aSnakeLovinBabe/021.jpg

here are the four hypo's
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll86/aSnakeLovinBabe/024.jpg

This little girl... I am keeping!!

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll86/aSnakeLovinBabe/017-2.jpg

Here's a normal albino
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll86/aSnakeLovinBabe/031-2.jpg

And here's the Hybino! It is a male, so I will also be keeping him. It's almost impossible to tell in pictures, but take them outside and it is clear as day. This is like taking the contrast on an albino up an extra notch, he is much more orange than the other two, and of course he has the same weird head patterning and labial markings that they all have!

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll86/aSnakeLovinBabe/029.jpg

And for fun, here are labial comparisons... the top two are normal (notice the uniform labial markings) and the bottom two are hypo's...I know the picture didn't come out quite so well, but you can recognize all of the same features on the labials if you have a good eye for detail.






http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll86/aSnakeLovinBabe/035.jpg



I also sexed everyone and here is what I came up with:

2.2 hypos
0.2 albinos
1.0 hybino
0.1 normal

I am keeping a female hypo and the male hybino, meaning that once they are ready and feeding, I will have available 2 hypo males, 1 hypo female, 2 albino females and 1 normal female. Anything that is not albino, is 100% het for it. Hypo is a dominant trait, breeding a hypo to a totally normal snake will result in hypos and normals right off the bat. I had great odds here! And to think I wasn't even expecting these....

[ConcinusMan]

Awesome! can't wait to see them. Apparently, one night is enough!

[otis lee]

congrats!
really looking foward to seeing them!
i'm one of the ones that thinks the hypos are just a light phase dom normal that pops up from time to time.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

congrats!
really looking foward to seeing them!
i'm one of the ones that thinks the hypos are just a light phase dom normal that pops up from time to time.

I used to think that too. after you see these, you won't think that anymore!!!! Yes, the trait is dominant, but it's a lot different from normal, it alters both coloration AND pattern, particularly the facial pattern.

[guidofatherof5]

Congrats Shannon.

[mustang]

cool! lets see some pics i better checker will stare at the screen for a while lol

[ConcinusMan]

And drool on the keyboard.

[otis lee]

hay now its been a hour or five!!!!!

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah, where's those pics? Oh... ooops. just remembered I never posted pics of my last litter. They are few but huge. I'll get right on that.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

thread has been updated with pics :D

[otis lee]

wow! think its time to invest in a few of those! granites too...thank u very much for showing me/us the light(color lol)!

[Selkielass]

Gorgeous!

[Snakers]

very nice babies! Man, that one you are keeping is blueeee

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

very nice babies! Man, that one you are keeping is blueeee
haha... actually she's quite green! The camera washes it out... she is lime green with fluorescent yellow stripe! She males me drool... :o

[mustang]

those granite like ones have wierd patterns on their head! like steves yellow one!

[otis lee]

the side markings are also diff..

[ConcinusMan]

haha... actually she's quite green! The camera washes it out... she is lime green with fluorescent yellow stripe! She males me drool... :o

'cause you like lemon-lime treats?:p

[Jeff B]

congrats on the babies.
that hypo looks an aweful lot like a granite to me, but just not as broken up as usual.

[i_heart_sneakie_snakes]

Gorgeous babies. I really like those light boys. Bet my little Failte would too ;)

[Spankenstyne]

Congrats on the babies. Looks very "extreme" sort of hypo looking. They're amazingly light. I've had some similar hybino looking ones but my "hypos" certainly aren't anywhere near as light. Examples here in mine, the flash sort of makes it less obvious than it is in person but the wild type on the far left in the first pic and the top middle one in the second are what I mean.

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj267/spankenstyne/Thamnophis/tmbabies1bjuly2010.jpg

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj267/spankenstyne/Thamnophis/tmbabies1ajuly2010.jpg

[MoJo]

Gorgeous babies! Congratulations.

[BUSHSNAKE]

Sweat!

[ConcinusMan]

OK shannon, I've made my choice. I'll take one of the hypos. Female preferably. They're beautiful.

[mustang]

Congrats on the babies. Looks very "extreme" sort of hypo looking. They're amazingly light. I've had some similar hybino looking ones but my "hypos" certainly aren't anywhere near as light. Examples here in mine, the flash sort of makes it less obvious than it is in person but the wild type on the far left in the first pic and the top middle one in the second are what I mean.

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj267/spankenstyne/Thamnophis/tmbabies1bjuly2010.jpg

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj267/spankenstyne/Thamnophis/tmbabies1ajuly2010.jpg
hey checkers brighter than that (he looks neon after he sheds!) but normally between sheds he looks lighter (ill post pics for comparison after i eat hold on)

[Snakers]

hey checkers brighter than that (he looks neon after he sheds!) but normally between sheds he looks lighter (ill post pics for comparison after i eat hold on)
eat quick!

[mustang]

eat quick!
here you go * bbbuuuurrrpppp*
http://i787.photobucket.com/albums/yy158/JJmustang/IMG_2003.jpg
http://i787.photobucket.com/albums/yy158/JJmustang/snake.jpg

[Snakers]

That is pretty light....

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Congrats on the babies. Looks very "extreme" sort of hypo looking. They're amazingly light. I've had some similar hybino looking ones but my "hypos" certainly aren't anywhere near as light. Examples here in mine, the flash sort of makes it less obvious than it is in person but the wild type on the far left in the first pic and the top middle one in the second are what I mean.

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj267/spankenstyne/Thamnophis/tmbabies1bjuly2010.jpg

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj267/spankenstyne/Thamnophis/tmbabies1ajuly2010.jpg

Those are nice snakes! The really bright one looks like my big girl marcy. Very pale and really green! Not hypo.... but top notch specimens nonetheless!

[Snakers]

Shannon, hows the knew hypo eastern doing?

[mustang]

That is pretty light....
ill take a pic after he sheds if hell do it soon, and i remember(ill try my best)

[Spankenstyne]

Interesting. I've wondered if it's just a colour variation myself. In person or with better lit pics they look more like what I see posted online as "hypos".
Here's the dad as a baby for example, which also is a better representation of what a few of the babies look like (or did before they went to new homes last weekend):
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj267/spankenstyne/Thamnophis/marcianus1ajan1509.jpg

Here's one of Jeff's hypos for comparison/example
http://gartersnakemorph.com/images/hypocheckered.jpg

It doesn't really matter to me, I wanted the nicest examples of wild type when I got the original male but it's interesting to try and figure it out. It seems to only manifest in a few of the green babies and a few of the albinos also take on that "hybino" look. I do have one of each look in the albinos left so I'll maybe start a new thread for some comparison shots later. At the very least it could be helpful for people to see what we're looking at for different colour phases and possible hypo types in checkereds.

The ones you've posted are absolutely amazingly light looking

[Snakers]

Interesting. I've wondered if it's just a colour variation myself. In person or with better lit pics they look more like what I see posted online as "hypos".
Here's the dad as a baby for example, which also is a better representation of what a few of the babies look like (or did before they went to new homes last weekend):
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj267/spankenstyne/Thamnophis/marcianus1ajan1509.jpg

Here's one of Jeff's hypos for comparison/example
http://gartersnakemorph.com/images/hypocheckered.jpg

It doesn't really matter to me, I wanted the nicest examples of wild type when I got the original male but it's interesting to try and figure it out. It seems to only manifest in a few of the green babies and a few of the albinos also take on that "hybino" look. I do have one of each look in the albinos left so I'll maybe start a new thread for some comparison shots later. At the very least it could be helpful for people to see what we're looking at for different colour phases and possible hypo types in checkereds.

The ones you've posted are absolutely amazingly light looking
Those two snakes look identical!

[ConcinusMan]

Still don't know why they're called "hypo" at all. If you mean hypomelanistic, they're not.

[Jeff B]

Chris, yours looks like a light color phase just like my "hypo", as I stated on the Reptile Radio show it was sold to me as a "hypo", but I'm not convinced that is the best way to characterize it, and I personally feel the term "hypo" is grossly overused and misused in the reptile hobby. "Hypo" is generally refering to hypomelanistic and personally I don't think it should be used unless it is a grossly reduced melanin and has a ghostly look and is a simple gene with clearly proven inheritance pattern over a couple generations, but that's just my oppinion. Now thats not to say that Shannon's or your snake or my snake aren't a color morphs with inheritablility and designer breeding potiential, they are color morphs either way.

[Spankenstyne]

I agree completely Jeff.
It's why I also have tended to use parentheses with "hypo". Mine was bought as just a normal Checkered but obviously the colour really caught my eye at the time as something special. It's really a lot more noticeable in person when compared to normal "wild type" looks than most of the pics available show with these lighter ones, but still not what I'd say is hypomelanistic. It was when checking online and comparing to other pics that I saw repeated reference to hypos, your pic just happened to be one of them, but there were others & all with the same look.

I haven't ever really been convinced it's hypomelanism at work but without having seen anything like Shannon's before just tended to go with what's been put forward but with the note of some doubt. In discussion in person I always make mention of my belief that it's more likely a light colour phase.

Shannon's pics are more what I would expect to see as hypomelanistic in these guys & deserving of the label. That said there does seem to be something at work with these other lighter green ones we have & may be some slight form of hypomelanism but I don't think they really should be labelled as hypo, especially with ones like what Shannon has posted. Those to me are hypomelanistic.

It also brings to mind the red radix where some of the different reds have red scales, and some have both red scales and red skin.
While these lighter ones do have lighter green scales than normal, they have that extra light neon green skin, while Shannon's have both the extra light skin and scale colour along with a reduced dark patterning.

At any rate after these pics Shannon has shared I'll only be referring to mine as "light colour phase" from now on lol.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I don't consider them hypo.... I consider them to be Pastel. It does the same thing to these garters as it does to the ball pythons... lightens up the background color and intensifies the contrast. I simply call them hypo because that's what they were named and I don't want to confuse people into thinking I have a new/different morph. Here at home, I refer to them as the pastel's. Maybe I will just say screw it and start calling them pastels. When you have a clutch of animals born and half look like that, and half are clearly normal, you are dealing with some type of morph regardless of what it's called. You breed one to a normal animal and you get half that come out looking like that. There is really no gray area... they either are one, or they're not... just like the pastel ball python... and that's really all of the criteria I need to know that it's a morph of some type. I don't consider these to be just a natural variation, just as I don't consider granites or albinos to be natural variations. Sure they all originate from the wild, but natural variation describes the different color phases and slight variations that you see within a clutch of normal animals... not a gene that clearly alters physical appearance to a great extent and that can be accurately reproduced.

[Snakers]

I don't consider them hypo.... I consider them to be Pastel. It does the same thing to these garters as it does to the ball pythons... lightens up the background color and intensifies the contrast. I simply call them hypo because that's what they were named and I don't want to confuse people into thinking I have a new/different morph. Here at home, I refer to them as the pastel's. Maybe I will just say screw it and start calling them pastels. When you have a clutch of animals born and half look like that, and half are clearly normal, you are dealing with some type of morph regardless of what it's called. You breed one to a normal animal and you get half that come out looking like that. There is really no gray area... they either are one, or they're not... just like the pastel ball python... and that's really all of the criteria I need to know that it's a morph of some type. I don't consider these to be just a natural variation, just as I don't consider granites or albinos to be natural variations. Sure they all originate from the wild, but natural variation describes the different color phases and slight variations that you see within a clutch of normal animals... not a gene that clearly alters physical appearance to a great extent and that can be accurately reproduced.
Well stated...

[BUSHSNAKE]

Hypo doesnt always mean "hypomelanistic". Snakes that have an "overall" reduced coloration are usually just called "hypo"

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah, I know, just thought I would bring it up and thanks to Jeff, Chris, and Shannon for providing clarification. I think they're awesome either way and I look forward to getting one.

[Snakers]

is it just me or is every cb checkered het for albino? lol.

[BUSHSNAKE]

yes and so are corn snakes..ha ha

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

is it just me or is every cb checkered het for albino? lol.

this is generally true! sadly.... but I do have a pair of cbb adults that are supposedly not het for albino. Exactly why I got them in the first place.... we will see when Marcy has her babies! I should not be getting any albinos out of that breeding! And yes, Joe brings up a good point, hypo can mean reduced amounts of any pigments, not just melanin....

[BUSHSNAKE]

your phone is off nucklehead!

[ConcinusMan]

What the? I swear sometimes you say the darndest things out of the blue.

[Spankenstyne]

LOL! Love the random mid convo statements.

I think that pastel is probably the best interpretation so far. I hadn't even thought of it that way not being a ball python guy myself (but I know far too many that are ;) ).

I've been keeping some non albinos back to try and breed it out of them and propogate this pastel/hypo/light phase along with the more normal wild types. The albinos are very nice especially as adults but I prefer the more natural look.

[Jeff B]

Shannon, I totally agree pastel would be a better desciption IMHO, and again that is also a statement that I made on the Reptile Radio show as well, so maybe we should just make the change, what the hell?lol
I find it very interesting that you produced 1/2 offspring like that, and that there are no "inbetweeners" but I think it would be good to do some more breeding before you call in dominant, just to be 100% sure the other parent wasn't an unknown het which would yeild the same results, it's clearly an inheritable trait either way, but I would want to do the full homework myself, especially since it is a small sample size, just my 2 cents though.



Hypo doesnt always mean "hypomelanistic". Snakes that have an "overall" reduced coloration are usually just called "hypo"

I don't really see reduced coloration, I see increased color especially yellow like on a pastel ball python, plus the black is more intense, and also some slight pattern change too, having said that its possible that it is the apperance of increased color due to stripping an overlaid dullness or layer of pigmentation away, but I'm not sure I believe this is the case, but certainly more detailed science based lab studies would give real clarification, we are really just guessing.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Haha! Richard, Joe is talking to me... Because he is right my phone is off! It has been off for a few days... I'll call ya when it's back on and I'm not working!

[Spankenstyne]

Gotta love the written word eh? Haha... So am I mistaken, Do you mean the light type ones as being pastel while the ones in your original post here being an example of hypo? That's how I was understanding but now Jeff's post has me befuddled, do you instead mean the ones in the first post as being pastel?... It was a long day at work ;) what's left of my brain shut off hours ago

Either way I agree we're just guessing, more breeding should hopefully help clarify. For what it's worth I'm also seeing about half being the lighter ones I have with no tweeners in a couple of litters so far.

[ConcinusMan]

Wow, I really started something by suggesting they are not "hypo" and heck, I'm a newcomer to all of this. The people here that greeted me when I joined know this. But, it did occur to me, if the snake is "hypo" then it's "hypo" what? Hypomelanistic? can't be.. there are normal very black areas... hypoerythristic? (I have a concinnus that fits that description, it's spots are sort of yellow) No. No red on a normal checkered. Those just don't seem to fit so I don't think they are hypo anything.

Just different. Call it something else, but I wouldn't call it "hypo" either. I think I like "pastel" better. That is a better description.

You can call them "mud" as far as I'm concerned. I want one.:D

[Spankenstyne]

I think most of us have questioned the label of hypo all along, we're just going along with what has been put forward.
"Hypo" is usually referring to hypomelanistic unless stated otherwise.

Hypomelanism can manifest itself in different ways than we'd expect. Look at Honduran Milksnakes, some of the hypos look pretty much normal with the black as dark as ever and all the bands and pattern there, it's the reds that seem brighter because of the lessened black affecting the red portions and the normal tipping. Here's an example of a hypo Honduran Milk
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:MB_rRGdtqw4WOM:http://pixdaus.com/pics/1257237711gBkmdyU.jpg

Then you have the Extreme end in them where the black is actually greyed out like here:
http://milksnakes.com/pictures/encyclopedia/hondurensis-extreme.jpg
Both pictures are hypomelanistic

So in theory it could be possible to manifest itself in a similar way with these guys and still have pretty much the same blacks in the pattern but the black tones within the olive portions being reduced making them look brighter & cleaner green.
I still don't believe that's likely the case, but just putting it out there to the point that we can't absolutely say no these aren't hypomelanistic just because they still have black patterns.

I do think that we're looking at something more along the lines of pastel as Shannon suggested. My confusion in the above post is in regards to which snakes Jeff means, is it the crazy light ones Shannon posted or is it the light green ones some of us have?
I do think the ones in the first post should be referenced as being different

[ConcinusMan]

I think most of us have questioned the label of hypo all along, we're just going along with what has been put forward.
"Hypo" is usually referring to hypomelanistic unless stated otherwise.

Hypomelanism can manifest itself in different ways than we'd expect. Look at Honduran Milksnakes, some of the hypos look pretty much normal with the black as dark as ever and all the bands and pattern there, it's the reds that seem brighter because of the lessened black affecting the red portions and the normal tipping. Here's an example of a hypo Honduran Milk
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:MB_rRGdtqw4WOM:http://pixdaus.com/pics/1257237711gBkmdyU.jpg

Then you have the Extreme end in them where the black is actually greyed out like here:
http://milksnakes.com/pictures/encyclopedia/hondurensis-extreme.jpg
Both pictures are hypomelanistic

So in theory it could be possible to manifest itself in a similar way with these guys and still have pretty much the same blacks in the pattern but the black tones within the olive portions being reduced making them look brighter & cleaner green.
I still don't believe that's likely the case, but just putting it out there to the point that we can't absolutely say no these aren't hypomelanistic just because they still have black patterns.

I do think that we're looking at something more along the lines of pastel as Shannon suggested. My confusion in the above post is in regards to which snakes Jeff means, is it the crazy light ones Shannon posted or is it the light green ones some of us have?
I do think the ones in the first post should be referenced as being different


Very informative. Good discussion. Thanks Chris.

And just to add something, this is what I call my "hypoerythristic" T.s. concinnus. In this picture, he is with snakes that have good red pigments, including a normal concinnus in the background, and that makes it very apparent how reduced his red really is. More of a yellow really.
http://a.imageshack.us/img59/5299/gedc1211.jpg

I call him "hypoerythristic" and what I would call "anerythristic" would look more like this since there is no red, yellow, or orange in the spots:

http://a.imageshack.us/img687/1562/dscn0523e.jpg

That one also happens to have the blue tint but not all anery concinnus have that. Also, some I would consider "anery" whether blue tinted or not, do have some bit of color to their spots but so highly reduced that it is all but absent.

(your "anery" snake, chris:)
http://a.imageshack.us/img59/7920/snakes022medium.jpg

So I guess we call agree that "hypo" can apply to any snake that has reduced pigments, regardless of which pigments are reduced.

[Spankenstyne]

You sir, are correct!

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Marcy Just had her babies! Sadly... it's not what I was expecting. I've got 1 hypo... 1 hybino (meaning she is het albino and she's not supposed to be!) 1 severely deformed hypo and a bunch of jelly..... At least I have two more healthy babies! I suppose these low fertility rates could be due to it being the male's first season. I have never had deformed babies before!

[Spankenstyne]

Sorry to hear that :(

[BUSHSNAKE]

Shannon are we sticking with hypo or are we gonna upgrade to "pastal"

[Spankenstyne]

and are we talking about the super light ones she posted here as pastel or the other light ones some of us have as pastel? haha

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

To Clarify- Okay fine I will start calling them Pastel's. but here is my disclaimer THESE ARE NOT NEW OR DIFFERENT THAN WHAT EVERYONE ELSE CALLS HYPO'S they are the same morph. Haha.

And the ones that I am talking about are the babies that I have just produced. I also have a really light one kind of like the ones you have (not related to my other snakes)

I am at work on my break so i cant really elaborate much further:cool:

[ConcinusMan]

Another hybino and another hypo, ummm... pastel *ehem* congrats!

[Snakers]

Marcy Just had her babies! Sadly... it's not what I was expecting. I've got 1 hypo... 1 hybino (meaning she is het albino and she's not supposed to be!) 1 severely deformed hypo and a bunch of jelly..... At least I have two more healthy babies! I suppose these low fertility rates could be due to it being the male's first season. I have never had deformed babies before!
New it.. Every checkered is het for albino:D

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

They are both girls. But the pastel from marcy's litter looks very different from my other clutch. In fact she is an exact clone of her father, a bit darker than the others. I am beginning to wonder if my female albino isn't actually pastel also. I mean my whole reason for owning her in the first place is because she has more orange and yellow concentration than any other albino I have ever seen... and the spots on her that would normally be black are much more crisply outlined.... My reason for wondering if she is actually pastel also is because all of the other pictures of pastel babies I have seen look like the female that was born today. I haven't seen any others like my brighter ones, but I have heard from a guy who breeds these things (he is actually the guy I got my male from) that he believes there is a super form, he emailed me and told me that the supers have extremely light heads and an even brighter coloration. I will have to talk to him about this and see what he thinks. The real problem is that a camera does not capture one vital thing.... the GLOW of a snake... any snake! So I can't even make accurate comparisons with pictures. The albino pastel female that was born today also is not nearly as contrasted/vibrant as the male.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

They are both girls. But the pastel from marcy's litter looks very different from my other clutch. In fact she is an exact clone of her father, a bit darker than the others. I am beginning to wonder if my female albino isn't actually pastel also.Slim chances, of course.... but not impossible. She's a young snake. I mean my whole reason for owning her in the first place is because she has more orange and yellow concentration than any other albino I have ever seen... and the spots on her that would normally be black are much more crisply outlined.... My reason for wondering if she is actually pastel also is because all of the other pictures of pastel babies I have seen look like the female that was born today. I haven't seen any others like my brighter ones, but I have heard from a guy who breeds these things (he is actually the guy I got my male from) that he believes there is a super form, he emailed me and told me that the supers have extremely light heads and an even brighter coloration. I will have to talk to him about this and see what he thinks. The real problem is that a camera does not capture one vital thing.... the GLOW of a snake... any snake! So I can't even make accurate comparisons with pictures. The albino pastel female that was born today also is not nearly as contrasted/vibrant as the male.

Either way, I definitely need to hold some of these animals back and figure out what the heck is going on here. I think that I need to hold back one of my possible "super" males and breed him to a normal female that is long term captive (which I have!). If I get all pastel's from that breeding, that will be a big help as to determining the exact way that this gene plays out. Is it incomplete dominant, like the pastel ball python? Or is it dominant, and simply has large amounts of variation between animals of the same morph, but no true super form? Maybe selective breeding for brighter pastels yields brighter babies and i got really lucky to get them so early on. Only time will tell.

[Jeff B]

To Clarify- Okay fine I will start calling them Pastel's. but here is my disclaimer THESE ARE NOT NEW OR DIFFERENT THAN WHAT EVERYONE ELSE CALLS HYPO'S they are the same morph. Haha.

And the ones that I am talking about are the babies that I have just produced. I also have a really light one kind of like the ones you have (not related to my other snakes)

I am at work on my break so i cant really elaborate much further:cool:

Hey you produce them, you can call them what ever your little heart desires sweetheart and you won't hear any complaints from me either way:D I personally don't really care as much what they are called.... as much as I care about what they do and how they react with other genes, ect, ect.
As with most nomenclature theres usually a lot of /təˈmɑːtoʊ/ (http://www.thamnophis.com/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_for_English) and /təˈmeɪtoʊ/ (http://www.thamnophis.com/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_for_English) or is a closer resemblence to this gene name type or this other gene name type, ect ect
It's all good discussion but we are just guessing and putting generic labels on things that we DON"T REALLY KNOW EXACTLY whats going on, we just know what we see, and sometimes we don't even see the same thing so can't even agree on that, lol:D

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

we managed to post at the exact same time... haha!

[Spankenstyne]

I think we're pretty much all in agreement. Only time & more breeding will tell what we're looking at, but as in my first reply on this thread I do think it's possible the extra light ones could be an "extreme" or "super" form of this pastel/hypo/uberwhatchamacallit which is why they look so different. I've held back some of the pastel looking ones including a male from last year and a female from this year so if all goes well within the next couple years I should also be able to help narrow down what we have here & see if we can replicate what Shannon has.