Albino Garter snake FOUND IN NW OREGON!

[ConcinusMan]

I'm not quite sure as I cannot verify from the pictures but a kid found an albino snake in Oregon which they say is a garter snake. I gave the person a call and said IF it is a native garter snake (it would be a northwestern or concinnus) it would be the only one known to exist at this time and worth a lot of money. I told them I was a breeder and I could use it to continue the albino line. I hope they call me back!

Here's the pictures posted on craigslist:

http://images.craigslist.org/3ka3o13le5Y55W55R3a8n4b113085ce321bd6.jpg

http://images.craigslist.org/3k23m53l75Y05W35P3a8nd6a7f72896fb1e53.jpg

http://images.craigslist.org/3nf3kd3od5O65Q65Z4a8n28fff809c5b31f72.jpg

pics hotlinked for now. I will save them to my PC before the ad disappears.

[Snakers]

WOW! Looks like a North Western... GOOD LUCK! Hopefully when you visually sex it you will have a mate for it:p

[snakeman]

I'm not totally convinced its a garter.

[ConcinusMan]

It is. Just talked to the guy. I'm going to get to see it in person. He says it's already eating worms. He described the skin as basically pinkish, pink eyes, a single yellow unbroken stripe down the middle of it's back. He took it to a "pet store" and they said it's definitely an albino garter snake. Sounds like a Northwestern. He's bringing it to me Thursday evening.

He found it way out in the countryside near a river. Nowhere near people.

Can't wait to see it. He says he won't let anyone talk him out of it (somebody offered him $40 and he laughed at them) and I'll get to see it soon.

So excited!

[Jeff B]

I bet he would be very surprised how much money he could get for it, if it is indeed an albino northwestern, he might be better off to take the money and run. I would give a pretty penny, and whatever I would give Scott would give $100 more, lol, and in the end it wouldn't matter because someone else out there might likely pay even more, lol. We already played that game a couple times this summer. Everyone has their price break point.

[ConcinusMan]

Oh I know, and I told him it was probably worth hundreds and that I probably couldn't afford it. I'm not playing any bull crap games with the guy. I just want to see it get into the hands of a good breeder, even if it's not me, so the bloodline can be preserved and of course, perhaps I could earn some favor in the process?

He's totally open to selling it. I told him I could get him in contact with people that would offer him the maximum possible dollar amount. He said "great!, see you thursday"

[MasSalvaje]

When you go see it Richard you should see if you can get better pics.

-Thomas

[ssssnakeluvr]

gee.....got a breeding group of northwesterns here...including an anery one. :rolleyes:

[Lance Portal Reptiles]

Im new here but i am from oregon and went to college for law enforcement, in the state of oregon you CAN NOT SELL, KEEP any native reptiles.

[ConcinusMan]

OK, I just got off the phone with the guy. Somebody offered him $2,000 and then didn't leave any way to contact him. Duh.

Somebody else that says he knows me (probably somebody here) played some kind of game on him and told him it's illegal to keep it and a bunch of other crap was said... well, that's not true. It's perfectly legal to keep native snakes in Oregon provided that they are a morph that is different than the native snakes in the area. For example, you can have albino king snakes or other morphs even if there are normal kings living in the area. Sure didn't take long for the idiots and bullshippers to start calling him. He'll be deleting his post soon.

One very interesting aspect to this, is that this snake was found very close to where my red stripe NW girl, and my blue anery concinnus were found!

Anyway, I'll be getting very nice pics posted and accurate measurement soon. Probably thursday or friday. He's agreed to let me arrange a "bidding war" and I think I'll do that right here. He also agreed for doing this, I can get 10 or 15 percent of the sale so back off, the rest of you, whoever you are, talking this trash to him.

Main thing is, I want this snake to get in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing, and preserve that albino gene! Wouldn't want it to die or get lost before having offspring! It is just a baby but apparently he's had it for 3 or 4 weeks and it is eating well and growing.

I'll keep you updated and post those pics soon. If it's OK with the mods/admins, I'd like to start a thread and have the bidding war here. I am undecided yet as to whether or not it should be a "silent" auction by email, or if it should be known to a bidder, how much the latest bid is for.

Any thoughts on this?

[prattypus]

I don't know... Not being a breeder, I don't know how much what I have to say matters, but I don't know if the "best" breeder is necessarily the one with the fattest wallet.

I know a good amount shows this guy that the breeder is serious, but setting up an auction, and taking a cut, seems to be monitarily motivated than anything else.

I know that's not how you are intendint the event to go down, that's just my perspective as a non-breeder watching this unfold.

I don't think I like the idea of this forum used to propagate a bidding war on a living thing- unusual morph or not.

I still dig your collection, though!

[infernalis]

I don't think I like the idea of this forum used to propagate a bidding war on a living thing- unusual morph or not.

Exactly.....

May not be my place to say this, but it will not fly here, that is not what this site is about.

[ConcinusMan]

OK, fair enough. Just facing reality here. Guy is going to sell. If you really believe this is motivated by money only, then fine. I'll do what it takes to ensure there are no doubts and take nothing, and prove I took nothing if that is the attitude. The money I was talking about taking was a token. I can do just fine without it. It's not about money at all. That's not why I'm doing this. I'd like to see any one of you have it. I don't want to see the gene lost. That is a very high concern of mine.

At the same time, I want to do right by the person who found it and get it sold for the highest price any one of you, or other garter breeders is willing to offer. I wanted to do it here because of who is here. Perhaps this is not the place but I want the same group of people to have a shot. I only asked the guy for a percentage so he would know my intent to get the highest price is genuine. Really, you guys, I don't really need the money that bad, and I'd do this even if it was for NO money.:cool:

So then, I value the input. How do you think I should proceed?

[Snakers]

OK, fair enough. Just facing reality here. Guy is going to sell. If you really believe this is motivated by money only, then fine. I'll do what it takes to ensure there are no doubts and take nothing, and prove I took nothing if that is the attitude. The money I was talking about taking was a token. I can do just fine without it. It's not about money at all. That's not why I'm doing this. I'd like to see any one of you have it. I don't want to see the gene lost. That is a very high concern of mine.

At the same time, I want to do right by the person who found it and get it sold for the highest price any one of you, or other garter breeders is willing to offer. I wanted to do it here because of who is here. Perhaps this is not the place but I want the same group of people to have a shot. I only asked the guy for a percentage so he would know my intent to get the highest price is genuine. Really, you guys, I don't really need the money that bad, and I'd do this even if it was for NO money.:cool:

So then, I value the input. How do you think I should proceed?
How about you mention Scott F.???

[ConcinusMan]

Already been mentioned earlier in this thread. He's also already been notified. I have had regular dialogue with him the past few days about other matters. I am awaiting his response on the matter of this albino.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I can't believe someone offered him 2k for that snake. In fact I don't. I mean, it's cool and all, but it's just another albino and it's not even very colorful! The fact that he says they left no contact makes me suspicious that he made that up to try to hype up how much the snake is worth. It's not worth $2k.... Many WC new albino garters have sold for a lot less than that. If there is any person who will shell out that kind of money, it's probably going to be Bill Minnick, who now owns the piebald eastern.

[ConcinusMan]

I hear you. Perhaps you're right. But I did want to offer it up to breeders that most of us know of, and just see how high it goes, if it goes high at all. No biggie.

The fact remains that once it is confirmed to be an albino Northwestern, it will be the only one. As far as value goes, that's up to the people who care to make offers. I just know that I expect that I won't be able to outbid anyone else who might like to have it.

[Jeff B]

I hear you. Perhaps you're right. But I did want to offer it up to breeders that most of us know of, and just see how high it goes, if it goes high at all. No biggie.

The fact remains that once it is confirmed to be an albino Northwestern, it will be the only one. As far as value goes, that's up to the people who care to make offers. I just know that I expect that I won't be able to outbid anyone else who might like to have it.

If there is one there could be more, and if not there will be produced in time, so I think I would just wait.
First things first is it definately a northwestern and not an albino checkered or some other more common albino that someone let go out there, I haven't seen good pics.
It's getting to be a circus show when someone finds something, not sure I even want to partake.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

It's getting to be a circus show when someone finds something, not sure I even want to partake.

Ditto!

[ssssnakeluvr]

same here..... :(

[ConcinusMan]

I'm not even sure what that means but I assume you still want to see a pic? He's in shed now (figures)

http://a.imageshack.us/img203/2760/img0371ws.jpg

[guidofatherof5]

Rough looking little scrub.
Looks like it has a few missing scales.
I'm sure it will look better once it sheds.:)

[Snakers]

also looks a little thin...........

[mustang]

nice snake

[Jeff B]

Interesting looking snake, its hard to tell from the pic but looks like it may have a paradox area, or is that just dirt?
It would be nice to see some pics from strait above on a darker background, and closer head shots, belly and side shots, ect.
Thanks for sharing Richard, sorry if I sounded negative, its an exciting find no doubt, and we all appreciate you sharing it with us, maybe what I really meant to say is that I personally am not going to go all crazy in the excitement of trying to aquire something new and offer or spend a rediculous amount of money on an animal that may not prove out or may die on me, it's just hard for me personally to justify rationally. I think I personally will just be patient, and if the right opportunity arrises for me to get into a project like that one weather it is this year or in 4 year from now, it isn't going to make or break me either way. So the bottom line is I would put in an offer (although no one has contacted me to even have that opportunity...yet) but I won't get into or partake in a bidding war with other breeders (circus-step right up ladies and gentlemen and let the bidding war begin and if you all end up hating each other by the time it's over who cares theres money to be had) , I guess that was really my point.

[ConcinusMan]

I guess I shouldn't have said "bidding war" anyway because there hasn't been much interest. I still haven't seen it personally but this guy only sent me a few really crummy pics, that one being the best. Snake does look rough and that area you referred to is like a snow, stripe missing there and very faded from there toward the tail. That "dirty" area is missing scales too, some kind of old injury there.

I'm sure the snake needs some TLC right now and he's not necessarily getting it.

Thanks for the better explanation of where you're coming from. Now I understand why some responses were so negative.

I simply want anyone who is interested and intends to preserve the gene to make an offer. Highest one goes. PM me. I think the snake needs to go and get better care soon. Who knows, if offers are low enough, I might just end up with it after all and that wouldn't break my heart.

[Lance Portal Reptiles]

Bad idea try to sell this....

ORS 498.022 Purchase, sale or exchange of wildlife prohibited. Except as the State Fish and Wildlife Commission by rule may provide otherwise, no person shall purchase, sell or exchange, or offer to purchase, sell or exchange any wildlife, or any part thereof. [1973 c.723 §77]

I dont know if its worth the risk to you and the person you sell it to... and are the people in the "bidding war" aware that their breaking Oregon law? IMO, it sounds like this would do more harm to the garter hobby then good, just food of thought.....

[guidofatherof5]

I don't care who gets the snake as long as it's going to get proper care, soon.
Richard, I'm sure you told him but does the guy with the snake know how to care for it before he gets rid of it?

[Jeff B]

Well I am not at all interested in breaking any Law, or even being an excessory to breaking a Law, because I would guess that that law you cited would apply to the guy living in Oregon, since it is an Oregon state law. So that pretty much takes me out of the picture, but I would assume if someone creates CBB offspring from that snake the Oregon Law would no longer applicable.

[ConcinusMan]

"Except as the State Fish and Wildlife Commission by rule may provide otherwise"

As I stated before, a rule does provide otherwise. You know what though? nevermind. Quite frankly I still don't understand everyone's negative responses. Just forget it. Someone who isn't necessarily me is just going to have to take this snake and see to it that it has offspring and breed with the goal of making more albino babies. Isn't this how albino garters got into the hobby? Oh sure, the snake could be released (before or after that happens) but I think it's chances of survival aren't very good at all.

It's funny how people pick and choose when fracturing the law suits their purpose, and then turn around and quote laws in a different case. Quite frankly I'm disgusted with the response. We have a species here from which no albinos have ever produced, and none have been found in recent history. Here an albino presents itself and this the response?:rolleyes: Someone even said "I think I'll wait". Wait for what? laws to change or another albino to surface under the same circumstances? If that is the case, there is nothing to wait for. Never going to happen or if it does, it's going to happen just like it happened right here.

There are two popular species I can think of right now(can be found in OR or WA) that could have entered the hobby one way, and one way only. By illegally collecting and subsequent captive breeding/exporting. And yet, people openly, publicly, and willingly buy and sell them. As far as I know, there has never been a legal way to buy and sell these snakes, being how they only occur where collection and sale falls under the same laws you guys are quoting. CB babies are for sale in places near and far. BTW, the law applies to any offspring of WC snakes, so for example that means ALL of your pugets are descended from illegally collected snakes and like I said, there's a few other garters in the same situation. You may or may not be breaking your local law by having them now, but the law had to be broken in order for you have them available in the first place.

I mean, if we're going to get really picky and start quoting laws, and start complying with those laws, let's kiss a few species goodbye and eliminate them from the hobby entirely.:cool:

[ssssnakeluvr]

I am interested....however have little money to spend. I probably (as far as I know) am the only person working with ordinoides at this time. I have 4 of them, all unrelated (one is all black). if the price is right (and I can make some payments depending on the price) or the person is interested in a trade I can do something. hopefully either way the snake gets to someone that can help it out.

[ConcinusMan]

We're pretty much in the same situation. I'm interested too but have little to spend. You're not the only one working with ordinoides. There are several others including myself that are interested in this snake AND are working with ordinoides, all of them pretty much broke.

The person who found this snake has no interest in the hobby or keeping snakes so I'm guessing a trade isn't going to happen.

Meanwhile, I'm just going to concentrate on getting this guy to give up the snake asap so it can get proper care. It doesn't look like it's in the best of health.

[ssssnakeluvr]

it does look a little thin...but still saveable. good luck!!!! keep me posted!

[Odie]

I am interested....however have little money to spend. I probably (as far as I know) am the only person working with ordinoides at this time. I have 4 of them, all unrelated (one is all black). if the price is right (and I can make some payments depending on the price) or the person is interested in a trade I can do something. hopefully either way the snake gets to someone that can help it out.
I'll "add" 100$ to your bid :D

[ConcinusMan]

Please, no bidding here. If you want to make an offer, then PM me.

[snakeman]

Fish and game does'nt give a rats *** about garter snakes.

[Tyrel26]

Quote "Fish and game does'nt give a rats *** about garter snakes."

Most intelligent thing Ive seen in this thread lol. True its their job to protect wildlife but very few will make an effort to do something to save one or 2 snakes; but I wouldn't flaunt the snake/info of the capture or sale in front of them.

Before someone else posts a law, call up you local fish and game office and tell them you seen a guy purposely kill a garter in his yard. if you plan to sit outside and wait for them to show up you may wanna pack a lunch lol

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I am interested....however have little money to spend. I probably (as far as I know) am the only person working with ordinoides at this time. I have 4 of them, all unrelated (one is all black). if the price is right (and I can make some payments depending on the price) or the person is interested in a trade I can do something. hopefully either way the snake gets to someone that can help it out.


I've got some ordinoes... a few "atratus phase" adults and two blue phase young ones...Originally I was considering taking a crack at getting this snake (right when the post was first made) But I saw that it's a T negative albino and they aren't really my thing... T negative removes too much of the color for my taste... If I took that snake and bred it with mine the only things I would get are some really bland colored white/yellow specimens... However if someone were to breed it into some of those reds... that could be interesting! This snake is not for me, but if it were a T Positive I would probably attempt to acquire it because I looooove them and you can do some really interesting things with T positives!

[guidofatherof5]

Before someone else posts a law, call up you local fish and game office and tell them you seen a guy purposely kill a garter in his yard. if you plan to sit outside and wait for them to show up you may wanna pack a lunch lol

Garter snakes in Iowa are afforded no protection.
It's a shame. People can do what ever they want to them.:mad:

[ssssnakeluvr]

I'll "add" 100$ to your bid :D
hmmmm....then the bid is $100 now :rolleyes::cool:

[ssssnakeluvr]

Fish and game does'nt give a rats *** about garter snakes.
unfortunately thats true pretty much anywhere...... my friend at the reptile rescue and I were here in Salt Lake City checking out a garter snake den.... they are protected by law here, reptile dens. pointed out the destruction of the den to a wildlife officer....just blew us off. no snakes were seen at the den last year and 1 lone male there this year... :(

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

hmmmm....then the bid is $100 now :rolleyes::cool:
I'll add a playstation 3 to that bid! :p

[infernalis]

Fish and game does'nt give a rats *** about garter snakes.

Same thing here, They claim Easterns are protected, yet my next door neighbor chases them around on her riding lawn mower and that is perfectly "acceptable".

[ConcinusMan]

Fish and game does'nt give a rats *** about garter snakes.

Exactly. In fact, some years ago, they were in my house. They took two rubber boas but the concinnus stayed. They said that they appeared to be well cared for and they flat out told me they aren't concerned about garter snakes in the least bit so yeah, on paper it's illegal, in reality, not enforced. I even knew a kid who's dad worked for fish and game. He had pet garters.


hmmmm....then the bid is $100 now

I'm not so sure. I don't think odie understands how bidding works. Somehow he thought he was helping by bidding $100 and doesn't expect to actually pay that out. So far that would be the only offer. I'm trying to confirm whether or not his bid is serious. Seems like everyone and his mother who was even interested in the snake at all is backing out one by one. NOBODY besides odie has suggested any offer at all and I'm not even sure he is serious about it. I don't get it. You can't tell me not a soul is interested in starting a line of albino ordinoides and yet tons of people were going "ga-ga" over a simple red striped individual. Unbelievable.

[ConcinusMan]

Quote "Fish and game does'nt give a rats *** about garter snakes."

Before someone else posts a law, call up you local fish and game office and tell them you seen a guy purposely kill a garter in his yard. if you plan to sit outside and wait for them to show up you may wanna pack a lunch lol

They wouldn't care here. You can anything you want to snake in your yard, especially a garter snake. They wouldn't even respond to a call like that.

[ConcinusMan]

Sorry odie. I guess this guy thinks he's gonna get rich or something. He says $100 isn't enough and he'd rather keep it. Might as well kiss this albino goodbye. He knows nothing about caring for them or breeding for the albino gene. So frustrating when idiots are the people who find these.

[otis lee]

i gave $100 for this wc albino! but i wont get rid of any for that price...
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b318/otis1976/stuff061.jpg
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b318/otis1976/stuff055.jpg

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah, blah blah. Means nothing if it doesn't at least produce one litter of hets. Preserve the new morphs/albinos, whatever. I still think that as unimpressive as this albino ordinoides may be, it could hold the key to future morphs.

Your snake is definitely awesome. All is lost if offspring are not produced and nobody follows up on producing more snakes with the gene.

It just seems like nobody but me gives a darn about this albino ordinoides. As if it's being looked at as "nonsignificant". I beg to differ. It's very significant. I want to see that gene passed on and experimented with by dedicated breeders but nobody seems to care. It's kind of sickening to me.

I'm going to ask this guy if he'll at least consider joining the forum and letting us guide him to the ultimate goal of producing 100% hets from this snake before it dies.:cool:

I said it before, it's not about money. I just have a feeling that this snake is important, or at least future breedings from it's descendants are important and could change the breed to be a little more interesting and appealing to the hobby. Ordinoides are far underappreciated for the most part and now an albino surfaces. We already know of melanistics. Lets work with the albino and melanistics, high reds, whatever presents itself and create something different!

Call it a hunch, but money paid or not, spectacular or not, this snake seems important to me. Not exactly important to me personally, but important for the future of this species in captive breeding efforts. More than anything I want to see this snake produce hets and those hets used for future breeding!

[Lance Portal Reptiles]

i dont know man, but when when people break laws to get a new morph into the hobby, makes us all look bad and know one whats to be part of it... Look at all the -press we have had this year. I think your wrong about them not caring...its not a $5 WC garter....its one that is worth alot in the long run and their looking for things like this...come on...it was on CL!!!! you dont think they saw this and are most likey reading this post.... Things like this get into the hobby from the "blackmarket" style sales...not the open market.

[ConcinusMan]

uh huh. Sure.:rolleyes:

[Jeff B]

Laws aside, enforceable or not, I personally don't work with ordinoides for various reasons, so not real motivated to buy a snake that I don't even have anything to breed it to, and quite frankly I don't have the time or space to start a whole new project right now, unless I can plug it into an existing project, so someone else will just have to put their money were their mouth is. Best of luck, I hope it all works out Richard, and I hope we will all be lucky enough to see more of them produced by whomever.

[ConcinusMan]

Thanks for words of support. Unfortunately the fate of the gene and any future breeding is out of my hands and rests with someone who doesn't have clue- the person who found the snake. If he can't get way more than it's worth, then apparently he intends to keep it and I know where this is going. The snake will likely decline and die before having offspring.

Another opportunity lost. Just like we lost albino concinnus some years back. Same scenario. Not one found before or since.

[BUSHSNAKE]

it happens:(

[Snakers]

well I rather have someone end up with it and not breed it then to let it wind up in the wrong hands and die....

[ConcinusMan]

I'm pretty sure it already is in the wrong hands. Dude doesn't have heat or lighting and has never kept snakes before. I'm going to give him a call and see if he'll join and stay active in the forum. maybe we can save this snake and change his mind about getting it bred in the long term even if he still has it.

[Mommy2many]

As said before, too bad it's the "uninformed" that find these amazing animals. I would hope that this snake has a chance at a decent life but the odds do not sound so good right now. Richard, please let us know what happens to it if you find out.

[Snakers]

I'm pretty sure it already is in the wrong hands. Dude doesn't have heat or lighting and has never kept snakes before. I'm going to give him a call and see if he'll join and stay active in the forum. maybe we can save this snake and change his mind about getting it bred in the long term even if he still has it.
now that's an idea:)

[mustang]

maybe you have to give him matearials (lighting ect) loan him one of ur snakes and let him facilitate the breeding if he thinks youll steal his. hopefully its a male and you can breed it to one of your females and keep most if not all the babies.

"but you must teach him the ways of the thamnophis"
in other words if he wants the blue pill bind him to a chair shove the red pill down his throat lol

[guidofatherof5]

maybe you have to give him matearials (lighting ect) loan him one of ur snakes and let him facilitate the breeding if he thinks youll steal his. hopefully its a male and you can breed it to one of your females and keep most if not all the babies.

"but you must teach him the ways of the thamnophis"
in other words if he wants the blue pill bind him to a chair shove the red pill down his throat lol

You have way too much free time and watch way too many movies.:D

[mustang]

actually i dont all i watch is funny stuff and syfy lol

[Mommy2many]

Love the Syfy!

[mustang]

warehouse 13, eureka, have, and sanctuary rule! (parents took away tv thank god for my netbook and syfy rewind!)

[guidofatherof5]

Love the Syfy!

You are off my Christmas list. Their movies are terrible(as in bad)

[Mommy2many]

Off the Christmas list? Really?

Syfy movies are bad. I don't deny that. But are cheap entertainment for the weekend when nothing else is going on. Beats "Swamp People" which I had the misfortune of watching the other night:eek:

Also, after about 12 hours of "American Pickers" (my husband's idea of entertainment), I'm game for almost anything!

[guidofatherof5]

Off the Christmas list? Really?

Syfy movies are bad. I don't deny that. But are cheap entertainment for the weekend when nothing else is going on. Beats "Swamp People" which I had the misfortune of watching the other night:eek:

Also, after about 12 hours of "American Pickers" (my husband's idea of entertainment), I'm game for almost anything!

Very good explanation. You are back on the list.;)

[Mommy2many]

I'm so happy!:D

[mustang]

you are off my christmas list. Their movies are terrible(as in bad)
the shows are betterthan moves escpecially eureka and warehouse 13....warehouse is on next!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ConcinusMan]

Anyway... jeez.. what happened here? Nevermind.

So, I'm hoping he'll do that and perhaps get bit by the thamnophis bug and stay and join the community. I can think of no better way to salvage the situation since he insists on keeping it.

[Snakers]

You are off my Christmas list. Their movies are terrible(as in bad)
LOL!!!! Yeah all there movies from my prospective seem pretty low bugget, Meaning I don't think the spent more than 10 bucks on a costume..ever..

[Mommy2many]

I have to admit, I was watching this weekend. It seemed to be the Weather Disaster type movies. A few weeks ago it was the alligator-crocodile type movies. I'm sure all of those killer snake movies will be on again soon!

[Snakers]

Beats "Swamp People" which I had the misfortune of watching the other night:eek:
Man, who doesn't like watching rednecks?:D

[mustang]

Man, who doesn't like watching rednecks?:D
"oh come and listen to a story 'bout a man named Jed
Poor mountaineer barely kept his family fed
Then one day he was shooting for some food,
And up through the ground come a bubbling crude
(Oil that is, black gold, Texas tea)

Well the first thing you know old Jed's a millionaire
Kin folk said Jed move away from there
Said California is the place you oughta be
So they loaded up the truck and they moved to Beverly
(Hills that is, swimming pools, movie stars)

Well now it's time to say goodbye to Jed and all his kin
They would like to thank you folks for kindly dropping in
You're all invited back again to this locality
To have a heaping helping of their hospitality
(Beverly Hillbillies, that's what they call 'em now,
Nice folks Y'all come back now, ya hear?)

[Snakers]

"oh come and listen to a story 'bout a man named Jed
Poor mountaineer barely kept his family fed
Then one day he was shooting for some food,
And up through the ground come a bubbling crude
(Oil that is, black gold, Texas tea)

Well the first thing you know old Jed's a millionaire
Kin folk said Jed move away from there
Said California is the place you oughta be
So they loaded up the truck and they moved to Beverly
(Hills that is, swimming pools, movie stars)

Well now it's time to say goodbye to Jed and all his kin
They would like to thank you folks for kindly dropping in
You're all invited back again to this locality
To have a heaping helping of their hospitality
(Beverly Hillbillies, that's what they call 'em now,
Nice folks Y'all come back now, ya hear?)
Steve's right, you do watch to many movies.......:D

[Mommy2many]

I have to say I am pretty good at dialects but I had to wonder if he was really speaking english at times.

And I don't know if we really need reality show about the hunting and killing of an animal. Seemed a bit brutal most of the time. IMO.

I'm not against hunting, fishing, trapping. I just don't think it needs to be on TV as entertainment.

I probably opened up a big ole can o'worms, huh?

[ConcinusMan]

The president is on live. Turn on your TV. The war in Iraq is done. We're pulling out.

[Snakers]

I have to say I am pretty good at dialects but I had to wonder if he was really speaking english at times.

And I don't know if we really need reality show about the hunting and killing of an animal. Seemed a bit brutal most of the time. IMO.

I'm not against hunting, fishing, trapping. I just don't think it needs to be on TV as entertainment.

I probably opened up a big ole can o'worms, huh?
Yes that is true, I hunt occasionally my self , I fish alot but im a catch and release person, And I do agree with you it doesn't need to be on TV especially for a young 6year old flipping the channels.

[Snakers]

Oh yeah I should of stated I'm a catch and release guy when my snakes aren't hungry:D

[Mommy2many]

Oh yeah I should of stated I'm a catch and release guy when my snakes aren't hungry:D


Me too!
I like to fish and do the catch & release as well. I have never hunted but would do so if the need arose for food and survival. If I have other options, I take them.

I hunt all the time for my snakes.
I agree that no child needs to be flipping thru the channels and watch some alligator get shot 15 times (as in the other night with Houdini)

[ConcinusMan]

C'mon guys. You're derailing the thread. ;)

[Snakers]

Me too!
I like to fish and do the catch & release as well. I have never hunted but would do so if the need arose for food and survival. If I have other options, I take them.

I hunt all the time for my snakes.
I agree that no child needs to be flipping thru the channels and watch some alligator get shot 15 times (as in the other night with Houdini)
that did take some time for one alligator

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

i dont know man, but when when people break laws to get a new morph into the hobby, makes us all look bad and know one whats to be part of it... Look at all the -press we have had this year. I think your wrong about them not caring...its not a $5 WC garter....its one that is worth alot in the long run and their looking for things like this...come on...it was on CL!!!! you dont think they saw this and are most likey reading this post.... Things like this get into the hobby from the "blackmarket" style sales...not the open market.

I am happy to say, that here in California, despite some of our strict wildlife laws, native albino herps are free for the taking with a standard fishing license. There is no restriction because albinism is usually a detriment to surviving in the wild, as in: "Look at me! My camouflage is great for hot, white sand beaches or (Ha!) snow..." If other state's laws differ (and they do,) it just goes to show how screwed up perceptions of the herp world really are. It would be nice to have some objective uniformity. Yes, hardly policed... Ask your typical fish n' game guy, and he don't know squat about garters! I work at a national park; even their herp data is outdated or incorrect.

[ConcinusMan]

And I can tell you that in Oregon, even native herps, if albino, or other unusual morph, (different from the usual natives) they can be freely kept, traded, imported, and exported to and from Oregon without restriction, paperwork, or license as long as they are not a "species of concern" or on any threatened or endangered list.

I can also safely say that very few Washington wildlife enforcement officer is going to know the difference between a native garter and a non-native or one morph from another because they simply don't give a darn. Unless it's very apparent that you're catching tons of local snakes and selling them, It's not likely that you'll get their attention. They really aren't concerned with local folks keeping a few garters as pets. Seriously. They have better things to do with their limited resources. I've dealt with them before. They let me keep my garters but took my 2 rubber boas. Their main job and concern is fish and game animals and even then, facing budget cuts and laying off officers, they can't even keep up with that.

[ConcinusMan]

I've been emailing back and forth with this guy and when I suggested he join the forum and learn and hopefully keep that snake alive, he showed no interest at all and said "well i gess its gunna die then if no one will put up 200 sorry man" In a previous email, he said "well this guy offered me $600 so I guess I'll go talk to him"

What a hemipene. Can you believe that? He doesn't even care that the snake is in less than good health and doesn't care if it lives or dies. Why is it that it seems like it's always people like this that find these things.

[Stefan-A]

What a hemipene. Can you believe that? He doesn't even care that the snake is in less than good health and doesn't care if it lives or dies. Why is it that it seems like it's always people like this that find these things.
I can believe that. 95% of all people are hemipenes.

[Stefan-A]

I can believe that. 95% of all people are hemipenes.
No, scratch that. It's 99%.

[kibakiba]

I agree, many people are a hemipenes... That kid is stupid for saying that. People like that make me sick. Hell if I found that snake I'd give it to a member here who's responsible enough to take care of it free of charge just to make sure it has a good home. Ugh.

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah, I've tried and tried with this guy. I tried appealing to his sense of decency and invited him to join and all that out of concern so that the snake could at least be well cared for, even if he keeps it and he doesn't seem concerned about that at all. He so far hasn't shown any signs of compassion or caring for the snake. Not even a little bit. All he did was get hostile and start talking a bunch of junk about how I am trying to BS him out of the snake for less money. The highest offer was $100 and I think that's more than fair but all he's concerned about is more money.

[Stefan-A]

Sounds like he doesn't understand game theory, either. He can accept a price that's been offered and earn $100, he can keep the snake and earn $0, or he can gamble. Either way, only one of his options is a guaranteed win.

[ConcinusMan]

That's funny you say that. Apparently I understand "game theory" even though I never heard of it before now. I did just tell him that he could gain $100 and the snake would be well cared for or he could insist on keeping it and probably have it die on him. I also said in that scenario nobody wins. He loses, snake loses. Apparently he'd rather do that because he has some paranoid delusion that I'm trying to con him.

He's had it for quite some time without heat or lighting and from the looks of it, not really feeding it enough and he's not even interested in learning about caring for it properly. He really doesn't know how to take care of it. That's why I say it probably won't make it if he insists on keeping it.

I told him if that happens he gets nothing AND the snake dies. Lose-lose.

All he did was blab off some reference to someone else willing to pay $600. I don't believe a word of it.

[Stefan-A]

If somebody offered $600, why the hell didn't he take it? It's 6 times the second highest bid. If it's a bluff, it's a bad one. Nobody who only offered 100 is going to match that bid. They might go up to 200, maybe 300, but not 600.

Anyway, that snake will probably kick it soon enough and it'll be one more hideous albino I won't have to look at.

[ConcinusMan]

Nevermind what it looks like. I'm more interested in preserving the gene and seeing if it can be used in combination with other genes to produce something in the future that isn't "hideous"

Imagine a snake like my red stripe girl, or flicker... but albino. I know you wouldn't like that stefan, but I certainly would.

[Stefan-A]

Just saying that I'd first and foremost consider it a senseless loss of a snake's life.

[Spankenstyne]

Imo nobody offered him $2,000 or even the $600, he's trying to play Richard for more money.

Appealing to Richard's sense of compassion for these snakes with comments about just letting it die when he clearly knows how badly Richard wants to see it live. When he didn't bite with a better offer after the $2,000 but "oh darn they forgot to leave contact info" then didn't bite on the "a guy offered me $600" comment he eventually comes back with the "gee nobody will even give me $200 for it, guess I'll let it die"...

I hate to say it because I believe your heart was in the right place but Richard you hurt your bargaining position by telling him off the hop how rare and valuable you believe it to be. He probably thinks you're some big rich breeder trying to lowball him out of a one of a kind animal & sadly he's just seeing dollar signs. Imo make him your final offer and be done with him.
It sucks but at the end of the day it's his decision and sadly it looks like it will be the senseless loss of a snake's life. Who knows after not hearing from you for a while he might realize it's his only offer

[ConcinusMan]

I never indicated to him that the snake was valuable in the realm of what he's asking. I did tell him it's the only albino of it's species (T. ordinoides) that I know of and I'd like to see it well cared for and produce offspring.

I already told him that $100 is the final offer and he's lucky there's any offer at all with the attitude that the snake is just money. That's when he said "well i guess its gunna die then if no one will put up 200 sorry man"

Anyway, I'm not quite ready to completely wash my hands of the whole thing. Let's see how he responds to the latest emails I sent.

[JungleTrunk]

I had an albino garter snake that my cat brought to me on my porch about a year ago that looked JUST LIKE this one except it was sub adult size. It was in bad shape, very thin and it's intestines were falling out and dried up (from my cat) and it ended up dying. I thought it was just something someone released and nothing too special, I just felt bad for the little guy. I live in NW Oregon so it could of very well been the same. There are probably more out there. It could very well NOT been a Native NW too. There are LOTS of people around here who release things into the wild that don't belong like the creek I went for a swim in then realized someone released aligators in it... aligators in oregon.. come on. People release non native animals in the wild all the time so I wouldn't be surprised. I'm just saying...

[JungleTrunk]

I wouldn't breed this as a Native species until you know FOR SURE it is. You could really mess up the lines if you do and it's not. I can't say it enough, there are a lot of people who release non native species and do weird stuff here.

[guidofatherof5]

Richard,
what is the status of this snake? Has the guy been taking care of it?

[Thamnophis Man]

Who the hell would even pay any kind of money like that if they don't even know the health that it is in? Even if I wanted it as bad as $600 or $2000, I wouldn't give him anything over $100 unless it was Scott, Jeff, or Don, or any of the other well known breeders. He sounds like the type of person that would take your money and if the snake shown up dead or anything he would just take the money and run.

[ConcinusMan]

I wouldn't breed this as a Native species until you know FOR SURE it is. You could really mess up the lines if you do and it's not. I can't say it enough, there are a lot of people who release non native species and do weird stuff here.

It is a subadult. I'm sure it is a northwestern (T. ordinoides). Both the scales and the coloration tell me it's not any non-native albino commonly available for sale and it has 6 upper labials on one side, 7 on the other which is pretty common for northwesterns. It was found reasonably far out in the countryside. Northwesterns will not breed with other species, at least not with any native garter species found in it's range so no worries there. He's local so if I were to buy it (not going to happen) there would be no "showing up dead" or any of that going on.



Richard,
what is the status of this snake? Has the guy been taking care of it?

It is apparently still alive and that's all I know. I wouldn't know if he's taking proper care of it..

[Odie]

Hi, from Oregon, JungleTrunk :)

[ConcinusMan]

Forgive my oversight. Welcome Jungletrunk. Good to have another from the Portland, OR metro area.

I am very interested to hear any details you might recall of the albino you found. When, where, etc.

I now feel it's OK to reveal where this particular albino was found. It was found between the Willamette river near Champoeg State park and the town of Sherwood as the crow flies. Not very specific but that general area.

Seems that this area of Oregon, northward to the Columbia river is home to more than one very interesting and "new" garter snake morph.

I think next year I'll try my luck at Forest Park and see what I can turn up there.

[Floof]

I just came across and read through this thread. The new morph is awesome... But how horrible that such a disgusting person was the one to find it.

Has anything happened since with the albino garter? Any news? Or did the guy just fall off the map?

Here's hoping you have a little bit of good news to throw our way...

[ConcinusMan]

Oh hey now, we're not here to judge another person although being how we're all people, it's difficult to resist judging one another. This is not a thread to bash the guy who found it. Just expressing disappointment due to a lack of cooperation and similar goals.

This gives me an opportunity to clear the air after some time has passed. This not a new morph at all. Other albino T. ordinoides were found before this one, and it's not impossible to imagine another will found again. This one is simply the only one known in existence currently and so I may have got a bit passionate about it's discovery.

I'd love to see the T- recessive amelanistic allele make it into some bloodlines if any breeders choose this species to create with but that's the problem- practically nobody does.

You got me: wanting to make redder Northwestern's. You got a guy with an albino. Not many others looking to explore the potential of this species. If my goals and the guy with the albino... well... if we had some support, and a couple of breeders and commitment... I just think we could make something as awesome as an eastern "flame" and perhaps make an albino high red northwestern. It's not out of the realm of reality.

There are pivotal moments when minds with like goals get together and each happens to hold the key to greater creativity and possibly future garter snake morphs. This isn't one of those times. The guy holds the albino, for whatever his reasons are.

Myself and others familiar with this species and willing to pursue breeding projects are in no position to pay what this guy is asking. All we can ask then is support. Support like Flicker has given.

If someone wants to keep that 100% homozygous albino T. ordinoides all to himself without ever passing on that amelanistic gene... well that is true selfishness since he has to give up practically nothing but a successful mating with another captive female.

I know, seems simple enough and yet... I'm off to poke things with a stick since this doesn't seem to be going anywhere.:(

[HazAnga]

I agree that maybe you shoulda just told him it was something different and that if he has no intention on keeping it that you'll give him $50 and be on your seperate ways.
And as for this dummy who thinks he knows the laws of herping and reptiles etc... your ******** and need to do some more homework. Yes laws change from place to place, but as for the "they were illigally caught in the first place" comment. Well pretty sure that most places allow the keeping of native garters as long as a hunting licence is owned. Hence "herp HUNTING".
But that's my opinion.

[ConcinusMan]

No. I was totally honest with the guy. I don't tell someone that it's "something different" than what I think it is and certainly wouldn't tell him it's something I know it isn't.

It's a darn Thamnophis ordinoides. It's also the only albino t. ordinoides know to currently exist in captivity. I'd like to see it contribute to producing CB offspring. somehow this guy took that to mean it's worth a gazillion dollars.:rolleyes:

The guy is under the impression that he found the "fountain of youth" and that everyone is trying to take it from him for less than it's worth. therefore it gets hidden away, never to be utilized at all.:(

The harder you try to get cooperation, the harder the resistance. Not much I can do in that case I'm afraid. It's like trying to create peace in the Middle East.

[Floof]

My apologies for the harsh "judgment" of the man who found the snake. I guess I don't take kindly to people who would rather see an animal die than get less than what he thinks it's worth.

Regardless, it's truly a shame he still isn't cooperating, but it's at least good to know that other snakes like it do, or, at least, have existed, as it holds hope for this gene's likelihood to be passed on and cultivated.

Thanks for the update, even if there wasn't much to share on the matter.

[fish_4_all]

I am not getting into ethics, just posting what I found:
http://www.dfw.state.or.us/OARs/44.pdf
There is more info there. #56 discusses the sale of native and non native species.
Need more clarrification, call 503-947-6308, he is the one who told me the laws. All of them are pretty much exactly the same for Washington for those that want to know.

I hope the sanke is taken care of, regardless of by whom. If the one who found it will take care of it then great. If they don't intend on doing so then it needs to get to someone who will or be released.

As far as the rarity of them, my kids saw at least 4 albinos this summer. Where they westerns who knows, could have been checkered, reds or yellows. All of them live the exact same spot right by my house. If they catch one on a sunny day I will try to find out what species they are.