W.t.f

[Snakers]

kingsnake.com Classifieds: FLORIDA'S FINEST GARTERS, RIBBONS, AND WATER SNAKES! (http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=23&de=777069)
Seriously who ever collected these garter snakes needs to get a real job, stuff like this p****s me off, collecting a load of wild animals just to make cash!?

[Snakers]

bump, i really want someone else to look at this

[adamanteus]

It happens all the time. It really should be made illegal.

[Snakers]

It happens all the time. It really should be made illegal.
Thank you! People like this is what ruins species and the eco-system its self

[adamanteus]

Don't get me started on people 'harvesting' like this, just to turn a quick profit. In the UK this is illegal. All our domestic species are protected, some more than others, but is illegal to collect and sell any of them.

[Snakers]

Well I can understand taking in a snake from the wild as a pet but this is jut overdoing it!

[ConcinusMan]

I've seen that lots of times on that site. I mean, how is this not illegal? Look, I might not be totally innocent (not saying I'm guilty either) but that's a bit excessive. Sounds like this guy just rounded up every snake he could catch and put them all up for sale.

It would be one thing if a few were collected to be sent to improve bloodlines for established breeders, but gathering all you can to sell as pets to make a few bucks is pretty sickening.

Florida actually allows this?

I looked into it and found this directly on the Florida Fish and Wildlife Commission website:


"Florida requires permits for wildlife possession, exhibition and sale."

Wildlife Not Requiring a Permit


The following species do not require a permit for personal possession as long as no other Rule or Statute applies. Examples include, but are not limited to, rules for Threatened or Endangered Species:


Reptiles, amphibians (nonvenomous native species that are not listed as endangered, threatened, species of special concern, or otherwise regulated; nonvenomous nonnative species not listed as Reptiles of Concern)

It doesn't say whether or not a permit is required for this person to do this but it sounds like it's perfectly legal. Somebody needs to close a loophole if one exists, otherwise, it's open season for collecting and selling native snakes that are not endangered.

[Snakers]

I've seen that lots of times on that site. I mean, how is this not illegal? Look, I might not be totally innocent (not saying I'm guilty either) but that's a bit excessive. Sounds like this guy just rounded up every snake he could catch and put them all up for sale.

It would be one thing if a few were collected to be sent to improve bloodlines for established breeders, but gathering all you can to sell as pets to make a few bucks is pretty sickening.

Florida actually allows this?
Florida is actually laid back compared to most states.

[Ameivaboy]

I dont understand the big deal- on the one hand - yes it sucks to be pulling animals out of the wild- on the other- where do you think your snakes came from (or the snakes that produced yours) ? Sort of hypocritical.

[Snakers]

I dont understand the big deal- on the one hand - yes it sucks to be pulling animals out of the wild- on the other- where do you think your snakes came from (or the snakes that produced yours) ? Sort of hypocritical.
Yeah but we didn't pull out 100 snakes at once from an area

[ConcinusMan]

Also found this: http://myfwc.com/docs/RulesRegulations/68A-60011PossofWildlifeinCaptivityPermitReq.pdf

So, I'm not really clear if this is legal or not. I keep finding references to possession, but nothing specific to collecting for intent to sell.

[GARTERKID]

this isnt nothing NEW i know of at least 3 people of the top of my head that do this all from florida they dont actually catch the snakes them selves they send out what they call thier hunters.They catch everything from turtles to snakes it really is just not rite and the worst part is that abot 60% of all those large lots die before even being sold its all about the money to these people so they dont care for them or put out money to feed them yes its wrong but it happens very day mostly in florida and south carolina their just isnt a law saying its illegal but their should be.
You will see many many of these adds on KS look at this mans add (jeff schofield) He has about 30 wc gravid females up for sale $25 each thats a shame depleting the wild like this werever he got these from its garter population is totally ruined.

[Ameivaboy]

Yeah but we didn't pull out 100 snakes at once from an area

But your snakes are either from this, or the snakes that produced your are.
Which makes you and everyone else a part of the cycle.

[ConcinusMan]

Horse pucky

[Stefan-A]

I dont understand the big deal- on the one hand - yes it sucks to be pulling animals out of the wild- on the other- where do you think your snakes came from (or the snakes that produced yours) ? Sort of hypocritical.
Well, let's pretend that two yearling snakes, a male and a female, are wildcaught. The one who caught them intends to breed them. Two years later, the female gives birth to 20 babies and continues giving birth to 20 babies every two years. Half of those babies start giving birth at age 3 and give birth to 20 babies each, every two years. And half of their babies give birth to 20 babies at age 3 and so it continues.

How many snakes are there after 10 years? What's the wildcaught to captive born ratio?

[Ameivaboy]

They are still descendants of wild caught snakes. You can try to rationalize it all you want.
None of the captive bred animals would be available to anyone with out collectors doing what they do. I not saying it's right, but I understand it.

[ConcinusMan]

Taking a few and breeding them is one thing. Collecting as many as you can catch, year after year, is completely different and totally unnecessary.

Yes, somebody, somewhere had to catch the original wild stock that are now producing generations of CB snakes, and occasionally, new wild stock is needed to keep bloodlines strong. That is a fact we cannot avoid. What we can avoid is outright exploitation and overcollecting. In the case of Florida, if we don't like it, we'd have to petition the State to change the rules which would require passing a law. That would probably require a fight to achieve.

[Ameivaboy]

Everyone wants to avoid over collecting- even the collectors. If they wipe out where they collect, they have nothing to collect in the future. Hence these animals were collected after mating season. Any responsible collector does the same thing, and tries not to over collect in one area. This isnt good for them in the long run and they know this.

[Stefan-A]

They are still descendants of wild caught snakes. You can try to rationalize it all you want.
No, it's simple math. It does not matter if they are descended from wc snakes, what matters is the impact of each snake, whether it's wildcaught or captive bred.

Even if the point got across, I suggest doing the math just for fun. It's not a small number.


None of the captive bred animals would be available to anyone with out collectors doing what they do.
There's still an enormous difference in scale. If it was violence, it would be illustrated by the difference between slapping someone on the wrist and stabbing them in the face with a screwdriver.


I not saying it's right, but I understand it.
So do I. I understand it, but it's still unacceptable.

[ConcinusMan]

Agreed. By now it is pretty obvious to everyone that I have collected wild snakes but I do not do so with unscrupulous intent to make money. I take into consideration the impact on the population in every case, and the potential benefit to the hobby itself.

I made darn sure since anery concinnus are rather rare, that the population is dang near at a breaking point (and it is) and that no females collected were gravid. For one reason or another, many of the females failed to become gravid this year. For every one collected, dozens more, some gravid, were left alone. I took special care to make sure they weren't gravid due to the few that managed to become gravid this year. Now, I'm sure if I didn't care about the population and were out to make money, I could have caught and sold many dozens of them, including the gravid ones, and sold their babies I didn't do that. It's just wrong and would have had a terrible impact on an already low reproduction year for the anery's. Luckily, judging from all the yearling sized anery's found, last year was good for them, and those were for the most part left to become next year's adults for breeding in the wild.

Now there were some wild gravid normals collected, not necessarily by me, and many of their offspring will be sold. Those snakes are not rare, but plentiful, and only a few were taken. Again, many dozens more were left in the wild even though if I wanted to get greedy, I'm sure I could have sold them. This thing happening in Florida is downright unscrupulous exploitation and it's sickening. They don't seem to care about the impact at all. Only about the money.

I don't intend to collect any more wild concinnus for many years to come. A few snakes already in the hands of breeders; enough to provide a strong breeding group, is all that is needed for now, and that's the way it should be. It shouldn't go on year after year, selling as many as you can catch. That's terrible. I will admit however, that it might be necessary to borrow a few males for breeding in the spring, but once they have done their job, they would be returned to their wild homes.

[MasSalvaje]

They are still descendants of wild caught snakes. You can try to rationalize it all you want.
None of the captive bred animals would be available to anyone with out collectors doing what they do. I not saying it's right, but I understand it.

You are very wrong my friend. By your rational people that keep wild caught snakes and people that use wild caught snakes as a cash crop are one in the same.

I could be wrong but I don't see a response in this thread that says anything against wild caught animals. They are all against the reckless way some people collect to make a quick buck.

There is no rationalizing needed you are comparing rotten apples to oranges. Do I or have I kept wild caught snakes? Yes. Do I still care about wild populations and do what I can to help out by planning very carefully what I keep and what I don't? Yes. Do I collect everything I come in contact with regardless of the repercussions on the wild populations and then sell them as fast as I can to make a buck without properly caring for the animals to maximize profit? No.

I also highly disagree with your statement that none of the CBB animals that we have would be here without collectors like this. Most CBB animals come from people who actually care about the animals and where they came from enough to start captive breeding from their very carefully cared for wild caught stock. They do not come from people who collect massive amounts of animals from the wild. Those people don't care enough about the animals or the ecosystems from which they were taken to put in the time and money needed to produce CBB animals. That is clearly evident by the cost of the animals they are selling.

-Thomas

[MasSalvaje]

Everyone wants to avoid over collecting- even the collectors. If they wipe out where they collect, they have nothing to collect in the future. Hence these animals were collected after mating season. Any responsible collector does the same thing, and tries not to over collect in one area. This isnt good for them in the long run and they know this.

You are wrong about that as well. They are in it for the now money. Get it while you can, as fast as you can, and figure something else out later. If they really wanted to be in this longterm they would invest more in proper care techniques and facilities.

-Thomas

[Ameivaboy]

You are wrong about that as well. They are in it for the now money. Get it while you can, as fast as you can, and figure something else out later. If they really wanted to be in this longterm they would invest more in proper care techniques and facilities.

-Thomas


I am referring to professional collectors who do take concern to not over collect in areas. I know this because I know a few collectors.

[ConcinusMan]

What Thomas said. ^^^

I totally agree.

[Ameivaboy]

You are very wrong my friend. By your rational people that keep wild caught snakes and people that use wild caught snakes as a cash crop are one in the same.

I could be wrong but I don't see a response in this thread that says anything against wild caught animals. They are all against the reckless way some people collect to make a quick buck.

There is no rationalizing needed you are comparing rotten apples to oranges. Do I or have I kept wild caught snakes? Yes. Do I still care about wild populations and do what I can to help out by planning very carefully what I keep and what I don't? Yes. Do I collect everything I come in contact with regardless of the repercussions on the wild populations and then sell them as fast as I can to make a buck without properly caring for the animals to maximize profit? No.

I also highly disagree with your statement that none of the CBB animals that we have would be here without collectors like this. Most CBB animals come from people who actually care about the animals and where they came from enough to start captive breeding from their very carefully cared for wild caught stock. They do not come from people who collect massive amounts of animals from the wild. Those people don't care enough about the animals or the ecosystems from which they were taken to put in the time and money needed to produce CBB animals. That is clearly evident by the cost of the animals they are selling.

-Thomas


Where do people buy their original stock? from wholesalers and pet stores which get their stock where?.......

I never said anything about collectors breeding animals.

[ConcinusMan]

I am referring to professional collectors who do take concern to not over collect in areas. I know this because I know a few collectors.

Without laws in place to stop them, there are dozens of uncaring unscrupulous collectors for every one collector that takes care.:cool:

[Stefan-A]

I am referring to professional collectors who do take concern to not over collect in areas. I know this because I know a few collectors.
Then we come to another problem with collecting (or hunting, fishing or any other intentional removal of wildlife) and that's how to determine what is sustainable. When it comes to some game animals, people are actually out there counting individuals and studying population trends every season, while people are starting to do similar things with fish. But it's very likely that nothing of the sort is done with herps and without that information, it's unfortunately quite impossible to say whether or not the professional collectors do in fact manage to avoid over-collecting. It's not as simple as only collecting where animals seem plentiful, they can for example be plentiful but in a steep decline.

[Ameivaboy]

Without laws in place to stop them, there are dozens of uncaring unscrupulous collectors for every one collector that takes care.:cool:


I dont know about dozens, but sure, of course there is irresponsible collectors who dont abide by bag limits and other regulations. They should most certainly be stopped. There irresponsible people in every part of society.

As for the company in question selling the wild caught animals- this company did not collect them themselves.

In fact I wouldnt be surprised at all if all those animals came from several different collectors.

anyways, I'm done with this thread. It's like an evolutionary biologist arguing with a priest over the validity of religion.... pointless.

Cheers!

[MasSalvaje]

Where do people buy their original stock? from wholesalers and pet stores which get their stock where?.......

I never said anything about collectors breeding animals.

You do have a point there about pet stores and wholesalers. However you implied that anyone that has a snake needs to in some way or another justify themselves because they are just as guilty as the collectors. I take offense to that. Out of the dozens of reptiles I have purchased not one of them was from a wholesaler and only 2 have been from a pet store (my very first snake, and a Xenochrophis from Petco that I felt sorry for). All of my reptiles apart from those 2 have been from reputable breeders, so please inform me as to where I am in need of any rationalization or how I have been a hypocrite in any way.

-Thomas

[ConcinusMan]

All the more reason to NOT make garters "popular" I like things just the way they are. We may be few, but we care what happens to the snakes. Some of the most awesome vacation spots on earth were ruined because they became "popular".. just an example.

[drache]

I would sure hope that the "grab and bag as many as you can to sell for a quick buck" people are the exception rather than the rule, but I actually believe that they must be rampant in a state like Florida
some undercover agents uncovered a sizable ring of wild-life poachers/traffickers right here in NY where the laws are prohibitive, with actual consequences
I don't imagine folks who are into poaching hold back any when there are no laws against it
Florida also seems to have an abundance of businesses that import crappy wc herps from all over the world
there are also some reputable people in that state, but they do appear to be in the minority
yes - at some point they all do need to be collected if we want to establish cb populations, but I doubt very much that that's what people have in mind who just throw them into a bucket or bag and haul them off to a petshop or expo vendor for the cash
on the other hand - I would also never take my cb babies to a petshop for sale, so I am equally guilty of giving them no other option than to buy cheap poached lots

[kibakiba]

I cant believe anyone would do that. Honestly they do need to get a job, it doesn't matter how you rationalize it, their just doing it for the money. For people like me, yeah I took snakes from the wild, but I brought them in because I wanted to give them a better life. I didn't even THINK I could make money off them, not one cent It was never a plan for me. It doesn't matter if someone is a "professional" and makes sure not to over collect, there's no need to collect more snakes. Not at all. Maybe a few once in a while, as Richard said, to keep bloodlines strong. People who collect animals and stuff them all into little tanks to be sold make me SICK. I personally wouldn't take snakes from the wild unless I had the intent of giving them a home. Maybe that person should get put in an over crowded cage and see how it feels to be cramped and having to crawl all over everyone. Geeez.

Even if I were to sell, say the babies produced from Snakey and Mama, I wouldn't do it for profit, since anything I would have made would go to getting them more food, or a new tank... Ugh, I cant even wrap my head around why you'd do that to poor animals just to make money. I cant understand it. I came from a family that literally wanted nothing to do with money, you were happy with what you had, maybe that's why i don't get it but still. To me its abuse. I hate anyone who abuses animals for any reason at all, even if its low scale abuse. I need to go bang my head on a wall...

Maybe I'm overreacting a bit but that makes me more mad than.. Almost anything.

[ConcinusMan]

You're not overreacting at all. I think you are genuine and caring, and my values are yours. Dammit Chantel, stop making me like you so much.:p

[kibakiba]

Hah :P I'm not trying to be likable, I'm expressing my anger and disappointment in... Idiots. Lol. I really hate seeing animals being abused like that, it makes me want to take them all and give them a good home. I live in a small trailer-ish house and I cant fit more than a couple tanks anywhere. Of course, if I get another tank to put Runt in, I'm moving him into my room so I can watch his cuteness before I sleep :D And give more room to the adults.

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah, I didn't say you were trying to be likeable. You're being yourself an being genuine. Like I said, quit being so likeable! :p OK, nevermind. To be yourself is all that anyone can do.;)

I can see you're already talking about more tanks and this , and that. you're hooked. face it, you're one of us. Garter addicts!

We have meetings like other addicts, but it's all about getting our fix of garters. we don't want to quit!:p

[kibakiba]

I guess I'd need to schedule a GA (garters anonymous ;)) meeting.... Ugh but I want them all! Their lovable, cute, and... At least Mama lets me cuddle her... So she's cuddly, who knows what the others might be like ;) I'm afraid that when she gives birth I'll just keep all the babies. I am addicted... Last month I almost bought a 75 gallon tank because I was planning on buying a Florida blue... Didn't work out in the end but Some day, some day.