Is Aspen bedding a good substrate?

[Barak666]

Well the tittle say it by itself.

The sphagnum moss is way to moist, so I will put something else, I was thinking of Aspen bedding, is it a good choice? Did it dry fast?

Do you recommend something else (while keeping in mind it is a "natural" look enclosure, so I'm not interested into Scott towel)

Thanks

Mathieu

[Stefan-A]

I have a strong dislike for aspen (both chips and shavings). It seems to stick to everything and if it's ingested, it doesn't seem that there's any chance of it softening up and becoming easier to expel.

Frankly, I still like dry leaves on peat moss the best. It looks fairly natural, the peat holds humidity okay and the dry leaves prevent the peat moss from sticking to food items. Here, it's important to keep an eye on the humidity, it can easily drop to 15-20% during the winter.

[Barak666]

Do you take green leaves, that you then dry, or you take already fallen dried leaves?

[infernalis]

I'm a fan of reptile bark, it's big and chunky, does not stick to food, holds humidity, looks nice and had a rough texture.

[guidofatherof5]

I use compressed aspen pellets. They fall apart when wet and make spot cleaning easy. If they are ingested they fall apart and pass easily.
I know the owner(Brent). He's a very nice person. I'm fortunate I can drive(20 minutes) to the business site and pick mine up.
Gentle Touch Products - All Natural Pet Litter and Bedding (http://www.gentletouchproducts.com/)
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/bedding_Quick_e-mail_view.jpg

[Stefan-A]

Do you take green leaves, that you then dry, or you take already fallen dried leaves?

Freshly fallen ones. They dry when I heat treat them. It'll soon be time to start gathering them, by the way. ;)

I have also used leaves that I have gathered just after the snow has melted in the spring. They work just as well. But I always heat treat them.

[Stefan-A]

I'm a fan of reptile bark, it's big and chunky, does not stick to food, holds humidity, looks nice and had a rough texture.
It's also expensive as hell. I was just shopping for reptile bark earlier today, it was about 1€/liter! That's about 17 times as much as unfertilized peat moss!

Next summer, I'm probably going to start making my own substrate mix.

[infernalis]

It's also expensive as hell. I was just shopping for reptile bark earlier today, it was about 1€/liter! That's about 17 times as much as unfertilized peat moss!

Next summer, I'm probably going to start making my own substrate mix.


US suppliers sell it a lot cheaper than that on ebay Stefan. I get it really cheaply.

[Stefan-A]

US suppliers sell it a lot cheaper than that on ebay Stefan. I get it really cheaply.
US suppliers are unfortunately not available. Add taxes and freight.

[ConcinusMan]

US suppliers sell it a lot cheaper than that on ebay Stefan. I get it really cheaply.

Agreed. In fact, I have a delivery from amazon.com coming any day now. I like the stuff, it doesn't need changed too often, spot cleaning works for quite some time, and it sure does absorb odor very well, and looks natural. I spent $36 total (including shipping) for enough to fill my 20 gallon, 55 gallon, and 10 gallon for months to come. Dang local stores want $10 for an 4 quart bag! I got 8 quart bags online for 5 bucks. I mix it with a little loose coconut fiber. However, reptile bark does stick to food and is dangerous to ingest. Not really an issue as I do not feed snakes on it, or I use a large feeding tray and watch to make sure no snakes swallow it. I found peat moss to be to fine and dusty. I don't like hearing my snakes sneezing to expel it from their nostrils. Coconut fiber looks about the same, without all the fine dust found in peat moss.

Aspen bedding is a great substrate. Snakes love it and it's practical. However, it doesn't really look natural at all. Looks more like the floor sweepings of a wood working shop.:cool:

[Stefan-A]

Dang local stores want $10 for an 4 quart bag! I got 8 quart bags online for 5 bucks.
So your local stores want about twice as much as our "local" online stores and you got yours at about half the price of what the online stores demand. Or at roughly 8 times the price of peat moss. :D

Then again, my math could be a bit off. It's midnight.

Peat moss is indeed fine and dusty. It being fine prevents it from causing impactions and it being dusty can partially be prevented by keeping the humidity high enough. It's best not to let it completely dry out, but of course it's not supposed to be moist all the time.

[ConcinusMan]

No, the pet stores locally want about $10 for a 4 quart bag. I got 8 quart bags online for $4.99. Even with the shipping, after ordering several bags along with some loose coconut fiber bricks, I saved about $30 over what it would have cost to buy those items in the local pet store. Also, online there was no sales tax. Buying it in the store is subject to 8.9 percent sales tax. I make a lot of purchases through amazon. I save a lot of money on certain items by purchasing online, in spite of shipping costs. Saved about 30 dollars buying online.

I tried peat moss. I don't like it. Damn dust gets on the glass, and if you keep it damp it starts smelling awful really fast. Coconut fiber looks about the same, but doesn't have the dust clogging my snakes nostrils, and it is nearly impossible to get it to mold, even if it's kept damp for some time. I use a little mixed with the reptile bark. Helps with absorbing wet feces and such.

[Stefan-A]

No, the pet stores locally want about $10 for a 4 quart bag.
$10 / 4 liters = $2.50 / liter, divided by the rate, which is about 1.287 and that comes to roughly (rounding upwards) 2€ per liter, or twice as much as I'd have to pay.


I got 8 quart bags online for $4.99.$5 / 8 liters = $0.62 / liter divided by 1.287, which comes to about 0.5€, which is half of what it would cost me, but also half of 17 times the price of peat moss.



if you keep it damp it starts smelling awful really fast.You're doing something wrong, I've never had a problem with smelly peat. In fact, that's the only substrate I've tested so far, that didn't get smelly fast.

[ConcinusMan]

OK, mr. math, so how is it that you still think it's expensive for you? I think it's quite reasonably priced the way I got it online, for what it is. I just think if you want something natural looking, you can't beat coconut fiber and/or reptile bark. Peat moss, at least what I get around here is only slightly cheaper and it's garbage as far as I'm concerned. The coconut fiber is a bit more expensive but a better value. Of course, value is just an opinion. I don't give a damn how cheap peat is, I don't want to use it, tried it, it's crap and so the low cost doesn't matter if it's not what you need or want.

I must have screwed up somewhere, talking about two different substrates. I went back and checked my purchase. It was $4.79 for a 8 (dry) US quart bag (that's roughly 8.8 of your liters) for reptile bark.

Coconut fiber bricks, 3 pack which expand to create 24 liters of substrate, cost me $9.85. (pet store charges around $18) Shipping costs are hardly significant enough to be worth mentioning.

Math gives me headache. I'll let you figure it out. I still think there might be a problem with your currency conversion because, while it's not cheapest substrate I can get, it's certainly not expensive to me. I'm not rich by any means but I still don't think that it was unreasonably priced.

[Spankenstyne]

I use Aspen and find it works great, it's a good choice. Lots of ways to go about it that will work, we all seem to have our preferences but to answer the original question I know of many others that use it and swear by it as well. I tend to use the chip these days for many of my snakes.

[Stefan-A]

OK, mr. math, so how is it that you still think it's expensive for you? I think it's quite reasonably priced the way I got it online, for what it is.
How do you think it's reasonably priced? Don't you have a forest industry? :D I'm just saying, considering the quantities of bark produced as a byproduct of the forest industry, it should be significantly cheaper than it is.


I just think if you want something natural looking, you can't beat coconut fiber and/or reptile bark.
None of the substrates look natural. Peat, bark, aspen chips, paper towels, ultimately they all look wrong.

Grab a camera, go to where you find garters and take photos of the ground in a few dozen random places. If I were to look for a genuinely natural looking substrate for example for Vipera berus in this country, and exluding areas where there is significant undergrowth, the ground would most likely either be sandy soil covered by pine needles, or humus covered by leaf litter.


Math gives me headache. I'll let you figure it out. I still think there might be a problem with your currency conversion because, while it's not cheapest substrate I can get, it's certainly not expensive to me. I'm not rich by any means but I still don't think that it was unreasonably priced.
CBA and no there isn't.

[kibakiba]

You guys argue so much! You both give ME a headache :rolleyes: What's cheap for Richard isn't cheap for you, and what you like Richard doesn't like. To him reptile bark and coconut fiber looks natural, to you it doesn't. You're both 2 different people, you have 2 different opinions. Sheeesh quick bickering like a married couple.... ;)

[Snakers]

You guys argue so much! You both give ME a headache :rolleyes: What's cheap for Richard isn't cheap for you, and what you like Richard doesn't like. To him reptile bark and coconut fiber looks natural, to you it doesn't. You're both 2 different people, you have 2 different opinions. Sheeesh quick bickering like a married couple.... ;)
LOL! I see your points!

[infernalis]

At least we all agree that Aspen sucks.... ;)


I buy my reptile bark from a vendor that has flat rate shipping, so when I order I get 6-8 bags and 2-4 of the coconut fiber brick 3 packs.

Only have to order substrates about 2-3 times a year for all the snakes I have...

Math aside, (I do agree with Stefan, he found what works for him and he likes it. ) I have tried substrates from other sources like garden shops, and have always been disappointed with dirty crap substrates that are better suited as mulch.

[ConcinusMan]

You guys argue so much! You both give ME a headache :rolleyes: What's cheap for Richard isn't cheap for you, and what you like Richard doesn't like. To him reptile bark and coconut fiber looks natural, to you it doesn't. You're both 2 different people, you have 2 different opinions. Sheeesh quick bickering like a married couple.... ;)

LoL. I love it. You know what, I'm really starting to like kibakiba.:D She's very cool.;)

You know what, I like what you said but don't interfere. I'm quite enjoying the argument.:p I like arguing with Stefan. Don't mess it up for me.

I have a feeling if we were to meet and spend time together we would argue for hours, and at the same time, enjoy it, and each others' company.

I could say his snakes are ugly fuggly. He would say mine look like they evolved on a Christmas tree. We would both be right and that makes everything OK.:D

[Spankenstyne]

At least we all agree that Aspen sucks.... ;)




Oh now it's ON! :eek:;)

[ConcinusMan]

No, aspen does not "suck" not at all. What made you think that we "all" think it sucks, Wayne? I just don't use it personally. It does not "suck" at all.

Now, peat moss and baked leaves sucks bigtime. That's right Stefan, I said it. Oh, it's on now:p

Let's not forget that these arguments are a matter of keeper taste and cost, and availability. What's more important is our snakes comfort and health.;)

[Spankenstyne]

I thought he was just kidding? I mentioned using and liking Aspen, I figured he was joking with the winky face in there.

[Stefan-A]

No, aspen does not "suck" not at all. What made you think that we "all" think it sucks, Wayne? I just don't use it personally. It does not "suck" at all.
It does suck. It gets moldy quickly, it doesn't absorb anything, it doesn't hold humidity, it doesn't soften up when it's ingested and it sticks to everything except feces. And it's dusty. Much more so than peat.

[Barak666]

Well, the opinions seems to diverge. It thinks I will use a mix of coco peat and bark on almost all the ground surfaces but few inches before the water I will put a piece of driftwood (2,5"-3" in diameter) to retain the soil and between the log and the aquarium, I will put some river pebble. On the soil mix, I will try a floor covering plant.

Today, I will take a look at the below average pet-shop we have here to see if they have these products at a reasonable price.

[infernalis]

It does suck. It gets moldy quickly, it doesn't absorb anything, it doesn't hold humidity, it doesn't soften up when it's ingested and it sticks to everything except feces. And it's dusty. Much more so than peat.


1. I have had a few snakes over the last few years DIE with aspen inpaction... It does not breat down and the slivers will puncture soft tissues inside the snake and cause medical problems if not death.....

2. I have had cages grow blue/green mold (with big scary hairs) all around the water bowls because Garter snakes like to swim and slosh water all over the floor of the cage.... Bark/eco earth does not mold like that.

3. One of my snakes never left an intact single piece shed on aspen or crefresh, but as soon as I switched him over to a substrate that holds humidity (bark/coconut mix) his sheds came off in one solid piece.


If those conditions are acceptable to you, then please just buy aspen....

[gartermorphs]

I use bark and eco earth for my normals and carefresh for my albinos!

[Barak666]

Well I just arrived from the pet-shop and they only have the zoo-med Repti Bark at 15$, first I find it expensive (as every thing they sell there) and it is write on the bag 100% fir bark, I always think that confiner bark (and conifer in general) was not good for reptiles... :confused:

So I might order something else via internet, it will be least expensive...

I plan to mix this coco husk (http://www.leevalley.com/en/garden/page.aspx?p=56694&cat=2,51603&ap=2) and this coco coir (http://www.leevalley.com/en/garden/page.aspx?p=59422&cat=2,51603&ap=1) Do you think it will make good substrate?

Thanks all

[infernalis]

Looks good to me...

[Flicker]

Nobody even talked about rabbit alfalpha pellets... Are they too lowly to be considered? I've decided to upgrade to them from my "paper towel" substrate.... which has been working fine, but isn't too lovely.

Rabbit pellets are pretty darn cheap when you get them at the feed store and are easy to clean up, and will disintegrate internally (or so I've read on the care sheets) so are safe.

I suppose they would be prone to mold if left too moist? and they don't look "natural" but I can't think of any other issue with them.

[infernalis]

I don't see a problem, but others may. ;)

[Spankenstyne]

It does suck. It gets moldy quickly, it doesn't absorb anything, it doesn't hold humidity, it doesn't soften up when it's ingested and it sticks to everything except feces. And it's dusty. Much more so than peat.

It's worked fine for me as one of my main choices of substrate for more than 20 years. I've had hundreds of snakes and lizards live, eat, poop, & have babies on it without a single problem, and *knock on wood* I've never had a case of impaction to this day. I also switched to the chip more often in recent years.

It's a matter of using what works for the cage conditions.

Aspen is a good choice for a dry substrate, you don't want to use it for humid cages.
For this particular application with the huge water area involved you would probably find it to be a pain to maintain and not ideal.
Yep it can get moldy if it's left wet and ventilation is limited. I find it quite absorbent, which is probably why it gets moldy, it's holding moisture ;). It quickly dries up feces, again by absorbing the moisture, and is easily spot cleaned. I don't find it particularly dusty, but who knows different brands and sources could certainly be different.

I will say that Peat is a fantastic substrate for humid enclosures, but equally terrible for dry ones. If left to dry out it becomes incredibly dusty, a couple of breeders I know have lost animals to nasal cavity blockages from letting the peat get completely dry. One was a Chondro and the other a Blood Python so there might be some sort of physical contribution there as well. Others have anecdotally made claims too but these two cases I know of and trust the results.
I've never had a problem with Peat though, and use it for my Rainbow Boa enclosures and many of my humid hides for other snakes and have for years, but I never let it get completely dry. When it gets dry it's horribly dusty and seems to coat everything with a fine layer of dust.

Mathieu it sounds like you've made your decision and imo it's a good one, there are a lot of options that will work and everyone has their favourites.

[ConcinusMan]

Well I just arrived from the pet-shop and they only have the zoo-med Repti Bark at 15$, first I find it expensive (as every thing they sell there) and it is write on the bag 100% fir bark, I always think that confiner bark (and conifer in general) was not good for reptiles... :confused:

So I might order something else via internet, it will be least expensive...

I plan to mix this coco husk (http://www.leevalley.com/en/garden/page.aspx?p=56694&cat=2,51603&ap=2) and this coco coir (http://www.leevalley.com/en/garden/page.aspx?p=59422&cat=2,51603&ap=1) Do you think it will make good substrate?

Thanks all

Fir is safe. It's pine and cedar you want to avoid. Don't use garden center bark as it has splinters and often has pine or cedar in it. Always use 100% fir bark. Coco coir is what eco earth is made of and it's safe to swallow and can be found much cheaper in a garden center than a pet store. You could mix with coco husk but don't let them swallow it! I just prefer to use fir bark instead.

[Spankenstyne]

Just to also add (because I didn't type enoug already lol)...
A little caution with absorbent substrates that are good at holding moisture. If they dry out and are ingested (go in dry) you run the risk of them absorbing body moisture and expanding while in there. Enough of it and you can see how that could create problems.

If using something like Peat or Sphagnum you'll need some dry places as Stefan mentioned with the leaf litter suggestion & Jeremy mentioned elsewhere to avoid scale rot situations.

[Barak666]

Thanks all for the information. As I said, I will try coconut coir and husk. Even if it might be wetter near the aquarium I find driftwood to cover most of the place into the enclosure and what is left as ground will be eventually planted, so they will be able to stay dry if needed. I was thinking of placing some flat rock under the basking spot, is it a good idea?

I will probably receive my coconut coir and husk order at the end of the week or at beginning of next one, I will let you see once I change the substrate and fix the driftwood (hopefully very easy to find here) in place

[ConcinusMan]

Planted? bad idea imho for many number of reasons.

[Spankenstyne]

Thanks all for the information. As I said, I will try coconut coir and husk. Even if it might be wetter near the aquarium I find driftwood to cover most of the place into the enclosure and what is left as ground will be eventually planted, so they will be able to stay dry if needed. I was thinking of placing some flat rock under the basking spot, is it a good idea?

I will probably receive my coconut coir and husk order at the end of the week or at beginning of next one, I will let you see once I change the substrate and fix the driftwood (hopefully very easy to find here) in place


I put tile or flat rock as some of my basking spots. There are lots of ways to be creative.
You can get the coconut coir much cheaper and in larger bundles at Home Depot branded as "Beats Peat" and at Canadian Tire under another name (I forget the name atm) but it's all the same stuff. Sometimes referred to as "plantation soil".

[Stefan-A]

Planted? bad idea imho for many number of reasons.
Up for another argument? :D Start naming some reasons.

[infernalis]

He has a cunning plan.......

[Stefan-A]

He has a cunning plan.......
It is as cunning as a fox what used to be Professor of Cunning at Oxford University but has moved on, and is now working for the UN at the High Commission of International Cunning Planning.

[Snakers]

I think it would be cool for live plants! And yes I have seen Stefan's live plant tanks, I think I may try it but seems to me like a lot of work.

[Stefan-A]

I think it would be cool for live plants! And yes I have seen Stefan's live plant tanks, I think I may try it but seems to me like a lot of work.
That was a short experiment and a half-assed one at that.

[Snakers]

Honestly, I like watching the arguments between you and C-man(yeah that is what I'll call him)

[Snakers]

....But back to the real conversation I use paper towls when the snakes are young and full of poop, one its easy replaceable, two its not ridiculously priced, and three.....it works, and then when the snakes get "older" I switch over to horse bedding pellets that are absorbent, which is essential with snakes(especially garters) and I can spot clean, so I don't have to worry about doing a full tank cleaning every week.

[Snakers]

Maybe I'm wrong though, I have never tried any other substrates, but I see what people mean about aspen, every time I walk into petco i see the reptile cages covered in mold, it's absolutely disgusting and maybe im overreacting here but abusive to those snakes at those stores

[ConcinusMan]

Honestly, I like watching the arguments between you and C-man(yeah that is what I'll call him)

Thanks. That will do. Beats the heck out of "conman":p

Of course, you could just call me "Richard":rolleyes:

[Spankenstyne]

It is as cunning as a fox what used to be Professor of Cunning at Oxford University but has moved on, and is now working for the UN at the High Commission of International Cunning Planning.

Hrmm...That's cunning.

[ConcinusMan]

Literally laughing out loud. *hurts my gut*

[Barak666]

Up for another argument? :D Start naming some reasons.

I would like to hear them too, the pro and the against arguments, more info I got better decision I can make.

[ConcinusMan]

Maybe later. Are you seriously that shortsighted that you can't think that far ahead and come up with plenty of reasons on your own? Of course, you could just go ahead and do it, and find out the hard way. From a maintenance and cleaning standpoint alone, it's a nightmare.

[Barak666]

Maybe later. Are you seriously that shortsighted that you can't think that far ahead and come up with plenty of reasons on your own? Of course, you could just go ahead and do it, and find out the hard way. From a maintenance and cleaning standpoint alone, it's a nightmare.

Je te trouve à la limite de l'irrespectueux!

My dragon enclosure is fully planted and I don't have any problems yet with that. So I would just like to know why it would not be the same with a garter enclosure.

I don't care if you don't want to answer, in that case just write nothing instead of being rude.

I'm on this forum to ameliorate my knowledge, I'm not agressive or rude, so I would like the same from others.

Thanks

[ConcinusMan]

Ok, my opologies. I'll try not to be rude. With that said, with all due respect, a dragon is not a garter snake. Garter snakes will usually trample the plants, not to mention poop all over them, and garter snakes will get ill if the humidity is high, or the substrate damp. Garter snake feces are particularly nasty, watery, and full of bacteria, and substrate will have be changed fairly often, and kept clean and dry. That's nearly impossible if you want to plant your enclosure. If you like the look, what's wrong with something like this as an alternative? You can add more, or use less plants, and there's a wide variety of them available (I get them at dollar tree)

http://a.imageshack.us/img801/4008/dscn0814.jpg

This is not planted and requires no soil or planters for the roots because there are none. Watering and damp areas don't happen, The plants are fake, do get trampled and severely soiled with feces. I just take them out and wash them, change the substrate and put everything back. I'm just saying if you plant real plants, it's going to be a PITA.

[Barak666]

Thanks, it is a lot more pleasant to read as answer ;)

What do you use to wash your plants?

Would it work if I use plants in pot, so they can be easly remove to rinse them with water (it is sure that if I have to wash them with bleach or another chemical, I will forget the live plants)? I'm stick on live plants cause I like their ability to purify the air and absorb odours.

[ConcinusMan]

You could and I've tried keeping live one's in pots but it's hard to hide the pots as the snakes are always digging them up, knocking them over, trampling the heck out of them, etc. Still a major pain in the...

But anyway, I just wash them in hot water with a dab of hand dishwashing liquid, then a good rinse.