Trout Chow Feeding?

[guidofatherof5]

I have been thinking recently about finding a premixed food to feed as a supplement to regular feedings of night crawlers and pinkies. I have also wanted something that troubled eaters (guppies only) would eat. I've been fooling those eaters by overloading the feed dish with worm pieces and very few fish. This has worked but guppies are expensive and aren't always available when I need them.
One of our new members(PINJOHN) got me brainstorming on this idea.
I've been feeding my snapping turtles a multitude of thing and Trout Chow is in the mix. I got thinking about the Trout Chow. It is fish based and seem to work well on my turtles.
The brand I'm using is Purina- Grower 500 Here's what I found out about it.
I tested a few water soaked pieces out on a couple young radixes and they seemed to like it. I can imagine this wet meal being mixed in with worm parts.
What are your thoughts.




Purina Mills Aquamax Grower 500 is a floating, extruded, nutrient dense complete fish feed for carnivorous (animal eating) fish such as trout, bass, yellow perch and red drum.

Product Form: Extruded floating particle - 3/16" x 3/16".

Feeding Directions: See bag for specific feeding instructions.


GUARANTEED ANALYSIS
Crude protein (min)

41.0%
Crude fat (min)

12.0%
Crude fiber (max)

4.0%
Calcium (Ca) (min)

1.65%
Calcium (Ca) (max)

2.15%
Phosphorous (min)

1.15%
Sodium (Na) (max)

.40%



Ingredients: Fish meal, dehulled soybean meal, ground corn, poultry by-product fish meal, fish oil, wheat middlings, flash dried blood meal, pyridioxine hydrochloride, menadione dimethylpyrimidinol bisulfite, choline chloride, DL-methio-nine, calcium pantothenate, Lascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), thiamin mononitrate, biotin, folic acid, cholecalciferol, riboflavin, nicotinic acid, dl-alpha tocopheryl acetate, vitamin A acetate, ethoxyquin (a preservative), zinc oxide, cyanocobalamin, mangaous oxide, ferrous carbonate, copper sulfate, zinc sulfate, calcium iodate, calcium carbonate, cobalt carbonate.

[Selkielass]

I don't know about the soybean meal, ground corn and wheat middlings... But then wild mice would likely be gut loaded with lots of grains so it might not be a bad thing at all.

[guidofatherof5]

I don't know about the soybean meal, ground corn and wheat middlings... But then wild mice would likely be gut loaded with lots of grains so it might not be a bad thing at all.


Along with all the other junk(plastic,wood,etc.):D

[guidofatherof5]

I did some checking on the ingredients listed. Here's what I found.

menadione dimethylpyrimidinol bisulfite
MENADIONE DIMETHYLPYRIMIDINOL BISULFITE (http://chemicalland21.com/lifescience/UH/MENADIONE%20DIMETHYLPYRIMIDINOL%20BISULFITE.htm)
pyridioxine hydrochloride(vitimin B6)

Choline Chloride is a complex vitamin that is added as an important nutrient in poultry, pig and other animal feeds. It is normally supplied as a 70% solution in water which is suitable for applying to cereal for addition to animal feed.

DL-methio-nine
DL-Methionine is an essential amino acid which must be supplied to the body through protein intake. DL-Methionine is necessary for the body to make SAMe. The body combines DL-Methionine with ATP, which in turn produces SAME. SAMe is directl active in 40 biochemical processes and involved indirectly in many more.
calcium pantothenate(Vitamin B-5)

Thiamin mononitrate-(Vitamin B1)

Biotin-is a water-soluble B-complex vitamin (vitamin B7)

Folic acid-also known as vitamin B9 or folacin

Cholecalciferol-is a form of vitamin D, also called vitamin D3 or calciol

Riboflavin-also known as vitamin B2

Nicotinic acid- or niacin, the water-soluble B vitamin

Dl-alpha tocopheryl acetate-vitamin E acetate

Zinc oxide-as a source of zinc, a necessary nutrient (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nutrient)

Cyanocobalamin-is an especially common vitamer of the vitamin B12 family

mangaous oxide-a major source of manganese

ferrous carbonate, copper sulfate, zinc sulfate, calcium iodate, calcium carbonate, cobalt carbonate-a source of these minerals

[mb90078]

I did some checking on the ingredients listed. Here's what I found.

menadione dimethylpyrimidinol bisulfite
MENADIONE DIMETHYLPYRIMIDINOL BISULFITE (http://chemicalland21.com/lifescience/UH/MENADIONE%20DIMETHYLPYRIMIDINOL%20BISULFITE.htm)
pyridioxine hydrochloride(vitimin B6)

Choline Chloride is a complex vitamin that is added as an important nutrient in poultry, pig and other animal feeds. It is normally supplied as a 70% solution in water which is suitable for applying to cereal for addition to animal feed.

DL-methio-nine
DL-Methionine is an essential amino acid which must be supplied to the body through protein intake. DL-Methionine is necessary for the body to make SAMe. The body combines DL-Methionine with ATP, which in turn produces SAME. SAMe is directl active in 40 biochemical processes and involved indirectly in many more.
calcium pantothenate(Vitamin B-5)

Thiamin mononitrate-(Vitamin B1)

Biotin-is a water-soluble B-complex vitamin (vitamin B7)

Folic acid-also known as vitamin B9 or folacin

Cholecalciferol-is a form of vitamin D, also called vitamin D3 or calciol

Riboflavin-also known as vitamin B2

Nicotinic acid- or niacin, the water-soluble B vitamin

Dl-alpha tocopheryl acetate-vitamin E acetate

Zinc oxide-as a source of zinc, a necessary nutrient (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nutrient)

Cyanocobalamin-is an especially common vitamer of the vitamin B12 family

mangaous oxide-a major source of manganese

ferrous carbonate, copper sulfate, zinc sulfate, calcium iodate, calcium carbonate, cobalt carbonate-a source of these minerals

I would be more concerned about the soybean and cornmeal, they are listed 2nd and 3rd on the list, meaning there is more of those ingredients in it than everything else.

[kibakiba]

Personally, I wouldn't try it. I'd rather get various edibles for garters and chop them up in a dish to provide a varied diet at once, but my snakes will eat anything (except Runt, he'll only eat night crawlers from a dish). They aren't troubled eaters, and Mama will take probably anything since she has a seriously voracious appetite. Hope it all goes well for you, Steve.

[ConcinusMan]

I don't know about that Steve. I wouldn't try that myself. You can't go wrong with "pure" foods such as fish (whole or fillet meat) worms, pinkies, etc.

My first instincts, and believe me, my end stinks, :p is that the ingredients don't sound very good.

I don't even like the idea of supplements that are listed. If the food was good, it wouldn't need supplements IMHO.

I know you think I "wear it like a badge" but I rarely fed supplements to those garters I had that lived "an exceptionally long time". If the food is right, there is no need for that stuff. They certainly do not need any grain ingredients.

I wouldn't do it. Probably wouldn't hurt them in the short term, but I would stick to the basics. Just plain old safe fish, pinkies, worms, etc.

Can't go wrong with feeding essentially wild garters on food they've been eating since garters were "invented".:cool:

[guidofatherof5]

Thanks for all your input. I by no means am going to impliment this with my snakes I just wanted the forums opinion.
I posted it as "food for thought":D
Thanks again.

[Kevinh583]

I would pretty much agree with the others about it not being the best food source. But I would also never feed a pet dog or cat commercial processed pet food. In my opinion it is always best to feed animals a biologically appropriate raw food diet.

That being said I don't see any problems using it occasionally if/when other food items run out as long as it is not a large part of their diet. There shouldn't be anything in there that a garter snake can not digest even if the nutrient ratios are not ideal. I would basicly treat it as a junk food item for snakes. A person wouldn't want to make mcdonalds meals a dietary staple but the occasional cheeseburger won't do much damage. A visual inspection of fecal matter after a trout chow meals should give you clues as to whether there are any serious digestion problems going on.

[guidofatherof5]

I would pretty much agree with the others about it not being the best food source. But I would also never feed a pet dog or cat commercial processed pet food. In my opinion it is always best to feed animals a biologically appropriate raw food diet.

That being said I don't see any problems using it occasionally if/when other food items run out as long as it is not a large part of their diet. There shouldn't be anything in there that a garter snake can not digest even if the nutrient ratios are not ideal. I would basicly treat it as a junk food item for snakes. A person wouldn't want to make mcdonalds meals a dietary staple but the occasional cheeseburger won't do much damage. A visual inspection of fecal matter after a trout chow meals should give you clues as to whether there are any serious digestion problems going on.

Good thoughts and advice. Thanks.

[Stefan-A]

Ca, D3, A, C, E, K, B1, B2, B6. B12, folic, nicotinic, pantothenic acids, biotin, choline, niacin, P, Na, Fe, Co, I, Mn, Zn, Se, Cu.

That is all.

[Jeff B]

Steve, there has been a lot of opinions and speculations thrown out to your idea, but no data or real answers. Why don't you run an experiment with controls, you never know the trout chow my yield better growth rates, increased fertility, better resistance to pathogens and disease, longer life expectancy. Run an experiment and you will produce real answers to your question with real data.
The main ingredient is fish meal after all, and the supplemental additives are a bonus if in moderation, which I am sure they are, overdosing isn't cost effective for a cheap food like that. I would think the bigger challenge would be getting a snake to consistently eat a prep food like that, but sounds like you had some takers. If you have a batch of babies try a few on trout chow and a few on your regular regiment and see if you notice any difference, may take a couple years, maybe you won't see any difference in which case the cost and convenience will still be a benefit. I like the idea and I might try the experiment myself too.

[guidofatherof5]

I'm not sure I have a couple groups to do this test on:D

[Selkielass]

Might be interesting to split a litter and raise similar groups on this diet, and on a more traditional diet, if only for a few months to see how weight gain and growth compare. 10-20 snakes is a pretty small sample, but still might yield interesting results.

(And you can immediately terminate the experiment if any negative effects become apparent.)

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I have heard of people feeding their snakes reptomin turtle sticks before... and I actually have stuffed minnows and guppies with these sticks as an extra nutritional supplement since stores generally starve their feeder fish. Last year out of curiosity, I offered a few of my red-striped ribbon babies some that had been soaked in water. To my surprise... they ate them plain.... I still would be cautious about feeding commercialized diets to my snakes.... but if steve is willing to test it out on some radixes I don't see much harm in doing so.

[ConcinusMan]

Steve is in a unique position to experiment with groups of radixes and collect the data and record observations (he's good at that) Far too many of us have few snakes, or highly valuable snakes and just can't do that.

I'm not saying inject them with radioactive material, feed them dog food, or anything like that, but reasonable and controlled dietary experimenting over a few years to see what happens would be a great contribution to the hobby.

[Kevinh583]

I think a study would be a great idea. There are very few studies being conducted on any kind of pet food because long term studies are usually very time consuming and expensive. Pet food suppliers instead simply use models to modify and approve nutritional content for food.

Some members of this forum are in the unique position that would allow them to conduct a dietary study with only a little extra time and money. A longer term study like that would be very interesting to hobbyists and even vets/scientists and long as the appropriate research protocol/methodology was followed.

[Jeff B]

I'm going to try it out on some scale, if they will eat it, but at this point I have sold all of this years babies, minus a handful of personal holdbacks for breeders, so I don't have any sample size worth documenting, besides I do enough of that at my day job, so my experimental part will be very small and informal. Even if some of us hobbiest try it and achieve some good positive informal results, then maybe someone who is in school or working in reseach, could have a good starting point to write up a real research project intended for publication, although at this point I am not sure if that garter snake nutritional optimization would exactly be a hot item with all the molecular work being more of a focus now, certainly it could be valuable and could be applied research to the hobby and the pet food industry, but not really important basic research, so funding may be a challege.

[Stefan-A]

Funding is usually a challenge in projects that aren't commercial.

Any experiment involving garters would be interesting, but organizing a decade-long double-blind experiment with a few dozen snakes would be a challenge.