Feeding with Xenopus

[hjelte]

Hi all! Sorry for not being active on the forum for some time, I´ve been helping out my girlfriend moving to her new apartment, you know how it is:rolleyes:
ANYWAY I was thinking-It´s kind of a drag that I can´t feed my garters frogs since I´m sure they would love it. I know that it´s a matter of parasites when collecting from the wild and I won´t play with that. And of course they are protected here in Sweden.
But I came to think about the xenopus frogs Xenopus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenopus) (African clawed frog I believe) wich are readily available in petshops. They are kept in the same tanks as the feederfish wich I sometimes offer my snakes as a treat, and I know for a fact that they are captive-bred so I´m thinking that parasites should be the same as with the fish(?)!. They seem to be the perfect solution in that they can be put in the waterbowl just like feederfish and as far as I know they aren´t poisonous. Have anyone else considered this as an option or is this a bad idea? Feedback please! :confused:

[GarterGuy]

I have actually fed Xenopus to a southern hognose snake that I was raising with out any detrimental affects. I would imagine they would be fine (yet rather expensive) to feed to garters as well. Maybe as a special treat!:D
Roy

[hjelte]

yeah exactly my thought, as a treat after shedding or something like that:) That´s great to hear, it is such a good workout for them as well to hunt for food.

[Stefan-A]

While we're on the subject, what about Bombina orientalis and Cynops orientalis? If I remember correctly all three species (yes, also Xenopus laevis) should secrete some form of mild poison.

[hjelte]

:) well I´ve actually kept them both! I´m sure the bombina as well as the newt secretes poison but I have no idea as to wether the xenopus does or not. I can´t find the info anywhere.

[Stefan-A]

I've kept all three. :)

I googled a bit, found this:

Entrez PubMed (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=3227042&dopt=Citation)


Xenopus skin mucus induces oral dyskinesias that promote escape from snakes.


African clawed frogs fed to American water snakes induced yawning and gaping which slowed ingestion and facilitated the frogs' escape without inducing flavor aversion. The peptide and/or indolealkylamine contents of the frog's poison glands caused the effect because frogs with purged glands did not induce these behaviors and rarely escaped. Poison gland mucus, applied orally, elicited similar oral movements. The frog's clear lubricating mucus was inactive. As several compounds in the poison glands have known neuroleptic properties, the oral behaviors may be induced by neural mechanisms reported to govern neuroleptic-induced orofacial dyskinesia in schizophrenics.

[hjelte]

Aaarggh....bummer...BUT! What about the dwarf-frog then, the "cousin"? Do some detective-work for me Stefan! :D You seem to do it well!

[Stefan-A]

Can't be arsed. :p

[hjelte]

:D lol. Well anyway, isn´t all anurians toxic in some way or another? I mean, it doesn´t seem like something you can get around no matter what type of frog you use to feed. And apparently the hognose which Garterguy fed clawedfrogs to didn´t seem to be affected. Hmm...this is tricky....

[Stefan-A]

That's what I've read too, most frogs are allegedly poisonous, but I have no idea how poisonous they are. Which is why I was interested in knowing if C. orientalis and B. orientalis are ok. :)

[hjelte]

well it´s a difficult subject...I mean...the only way to find out is probably by trying and feed them to the snakes, but that could mean seriously risking the health of our animals. But I found this article....wait..gotta google....:)

[hjelte]

well it´s a difficult subject...I mean...the only way to find out is probably by trying and feed them to the snakes, but that could mean seriously risking the health of our animals. But I found this article....wait..gotta google....:)



http://www.bioone.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1893%2F0005-3155(2004)75%3C58%3AFAPHBO%3E2.0.CO%3B2


There! Seems like hammondii digs ém!

[Stefan-A]

It would seem that Xenopus is safe to use. :D Apart from the parasite issue, but I wonder how big a problem that really is with captive bred animals.

[hjelte]

yeah exactly! There shouldn´t be a greater risk than in using guppies and such. I think I am going to give this a go later this week.

[Stefan-A]

Can you get your hands on a Xenopus that size? The dwarfs don't belong to the same genus.

[adamanteus]

It'll be interesting to hear how you get on. Still seems like a pretty expensive option to me though, unless Xenopus are a lot cheaper in Sweden than they are in the UK!

[hjelte]

I believe so yes. Here in Norrköping there are 4 different pet-shops which all carry xenopus. But I take it that the dwarfes wouldn´t be of any danger either...or what do you think?

[hjelte]

It'll be interesting to hear how you get on. Still seems like a pretty expensive option to me though, unless Xenopus are a lot cheaper in Sweden than they are in the UK!

Yeah well I´m only interested in using them as an occasional snack just to get some variation to the pinkie-diet they are on now. The frogs are about 75 SEK wich I have no idea how much it is in english pounds:)

[Cazador]

Hi guys,

I was just reading through this interesting thread. I think the threat of parasites is going to be severely reduced if you keep them in captivity. You could also drop some Flagyl into the tanks with your brood stock. As Stefan's pointing out, Xenopus laevis gets pretty big pretty quickly, so any froglets that aren't fed in time could be frozen and saved for later. The smaller the meal, the easier and quick it would be swallowed. I'm also impressed at how large the tadpoles are, but they're definitely small enough to be eaten. If you choose to feed Xenopus, I'd do it sparingly, since garters and Xenopus haven't co-evolved, or adapted to one another's defenses, being geographically separated.

Rick

[GarterGuy]

I also had to use the dwarfs for the hognose as well and didn't see any real difference....they both went down and stayed down with out any worries. As far as Bombina...these guys are REALLY toxic, even to the point where I've heard of people who've handled them having a reaction to there secreations.....think the same can go for the (Cynops...think that's the species...not as good with newts)newts as well. Don't know if I'd risk it.
Roy

[hjelte]

Ok well we all seem to agree on that this shouldn´t mean any serious hazard for my snakes so I think I´m going to go for it as previously stated. I´ll be sure to keep ypu updated and I will film it as well to show you how it went down! (no oun intended):)

[Stefan-A]

I also had to use the dwarfs for the hognose as well and didn't see any real difference....they both went down and stayed down with out any worries. As far as Bombina...these guys are REALLY toxic, even to the point where I've heard of people who've handled them having a reaction to there secreations.....think the same can go for the (Cynops...think that's the species...not as good with newts)newts as well. Don't know if I'd risk it.
Roy
I wouldn't risk it either, but I hadn't heard of anybody getting reactions. I certainly didn't get any. People also say that you shouldn't keep Cynops with fish, because the secretions will kill them, but back in the day when I kept them together (didn't know any better), that certainly didn't happen.

I guess you really are supposed to avoid everything in nature that's red & black. :D

[sschind]

Since most of us here are into more than just snakes, why not set up an aquarium and breed your own xenopus. I have not looked into it but I think they are fairly easy to breed. Seems all they need is a temperature fluctuation to start the mating ritual. They you would have access to tadpoles and young frogs and you could probably sell off a few youngsters to the pet shops here and there. I have been given a half dozen adults and if I have a pair I am thinking about trying it myself. If anything comes of it I will keep you posted.

Steve

[hjelte]

Great idea! I´m so happy that this turned out to be a good idea, seeing as frogs make up such a big part of wild garters diet.

[KITKAT]

When you dump the water from your Xenopus tanks, PLEASE dump it first into a bucket and add bleach, then discard it.

Xenopus carry a virus which will attack and kill tree frogs and other native frogs in your waterways.

[sschind]

Thanks for the reminder KITKAT.

the chrytid fungus is the main culprit in the deaths of 1000s of amphibians around the world. Clawed frogs are carriers of this fungus but are immune to the effects.

[hjelte]

really? I had no idea...hmm...I have to check this with some frogowners on a swedish forum to see if this is something necessary here in this country. I have no idea but we could have different watersystems (hope you understand what I´m saying) thanks for the pointer!

[Stefan-A]

I'm not sure, but I think sewage treatment usually includes chemical disinfection.

[hjelte]

yeah I´m guessing we have the same system in Sweden as you guys in Finland Stefan, so I don´t think that this should be an issue really.

[adamanteus]

I'm sure this is also the case in the UK.

[hjelte]

yeah I would believe we follow the same EU directives but of course I´ll try and look it up.

[KITKAT]

Thanks for the reminder KITKAT.

the chrytid fungus is the main culprit in the deaths of 1000s of amphibians around the world. Clawed frogs are carriers of this fungus but are immune to the effects.

Ah... that's it! I forgot it was a fungus... but yes, it is having a huge effect on the world's frogs!

[sschind]

I'm not sure, but I think sewage treatment usually includes chemical disinfection.

True, but there are those who may not dump their wastewater down the drain. I know several people who use there discarded fish tank water for their plants. Obviously you wouldn't want to do that with bleached water but the warning is still valid.

[Stefan-A]

Indeed it is valid.