Meet the gang!

[kibakiba]

I figured it's by nice to show off my little garters... They aren't flashy or colourful, but they are awesome :P

Snakey
The picture is a bit blurry, but it was the best pic I could get of him... He's a little too curious for his own good ;)

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/Snakey.JPG

Runt
Runt's named that because he's 2 months old and still not as big as Snakey was when he was that age. He's tiny, it just doesn't show on the picture

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/Runt1.JPG

Mama
The pig of the pack haha. She can down a fuzzy and look for more the next day! She didn't want her picture taken unless I got her good side ;)

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/Mama.JPG


Maybe one day I'll have a few more to show...

[drache]

not flashy or colourful?
but I think they are
quite beautiful

[guidofatherof5]

Great looking snakes.
An appropriate use of the word "Awesome":)

[kibakiba]

I don't mean that they're ugly in any sense, just compared to some garters they aren't as colourful, but I do agree that they're beautiful :) I wouldn't trade them for a more colourful snake... All snakes are beautiful to me :D

[adamanteus]

Gorgeous snakes.

[Flicker]

Sweet!!!!

[guidofatherof5]

I wouldn't trade them for a more colourful snake...

The sign of a good snake owner.:)
Your snakes are in the right place.

[kibakiba]

Well I would hope they were in the right place! I'd be sad to give them to anyone else... unless I couldn't take care of them properly, I guess. But even then I would need to find someone worthy of owning my snakes ;)

[kibakiba]

Well, Mama calmed down a lot. Enough to fall asleep in my shirt. When she woke up she decided to "thank" me for feeding her... By pooping in my shirt and taking off! :mad: Isn't that so sweet? You can tell she really appreciates the constant flow of pinkies:rolleyes:

[guidofatherof5]

When she woke up she decided to "thank" me for feeding her... By pooping in my shirt and taking off! :mad: Isn't that so sweet? You can tell she really appreciates the constant flow of pinkies:rolleyes:

Once my daughter Gabby was letting her snake lucky crawl through her hair. Gabby has a lot of hair.
I told her she shouldn't do that as Lucky might decide to poop in her hair.
Gabby didn't listen and Lucky pooped in her hair.
Dad knows what he's talking about.:D

[kibakiba]

Haha, Mama likes sleeping in my hair also... I hope I'm lucky enough not to have snake poo in my hair! I cant imagine it being a good contitioner ;)

[Faunaofthenorth]

the first snake looks quite similar to my sirtalis annectans...is it??? or are you not sure

[Spankenstyne]

Those are beauties!

[ssssnakeluvr]

they are ordinoides

[kibakiba]

I've only ever ben told that they're common garter snakes or easterns, but it's hard to tell with all the different kinds :P All I can say is they were caught in Washington state near Granite Falls :)

[Faunaofthenorth]

oh ok that clears it up ha, they sometimes can look quite similar

[kibakiba]

Yeah, it kind of explains why I don't even know what they are ;) I know there are ordinoides here, but somehow it doesn't seem like they are. I had that red and brown garter that looked like an ordinoides, but I think that these snakes are just the common garter snakes :) Runt may be different, as he's got a different look to him than the common garters I've seen. I can add some more pictures if anyone wants to help identify them! Snakey is about to shed, so I'd have to wait until he's done for his picture. I don't want to disturb the grumpy boy :D

[ssssnakeluvr]

"common" garters are easterns, nowhere near where you live. those are definitely ordinoides.

here's 2 of my ordinoides

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g302/ssssnakeluvr/DSCF4011-1.jpg

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g302/ssssnakeluvr/DSCF4010-2.jpg

[ConcinusMan]

The only other garter snakes that might be found in that part of Washington are so different than those that we can rule those out. Northwestern garters (Thamnophis ordinoides) are the most common garter snake in their distribution range. Highly variable even within the same population. (polymorphism)

Here's a sampling of them, all found in the same location in SW WA:

http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/5274/gedc1462.jpg

[Faunaofthenorth]

yea i only, i was only comparing the similarity in the redstriped ordinoides that you had with the coloration of my annectans, they do look quite similar but obviously not an annectans, does anyone else have an annectans???

[Stefan-A]

"common" garters are easterns, nowhere near where you live.
Unless you drop the " ".

[kibakiba]

The snakes we find here are always called "common" garters. It may not be the actual name, but they are "commonly" found, thus the name. I know Easterns aren't around here, but a pet shop worker did tell me Snakey was an eastern garter when I first caught him.

I wouldnt mind having an annectens, they seem like cute little guys... But then again I'd like having every garter in the world because I love them all :D But I'm happy with my pretty little snakes :)

[ConcinusMan]

An eastern garter in a western state. Now that makes sense. Pet store workers:rolleyes:

Always consider the location of any wild caught garter snake and then go from there when attempting to ID. Location rules out most garter snakes in the U.S. There's only a few T.sirtalis subspecies in Washington and they look nothing like that. Labial scale counts on your snake rule them out too. That only leaves one other garter snake in Washington.

[kibakiba]

Yeah, I don't pay attention to pet store workers, but I said that I've been told that, and people seemed to get snarky about that ;) I had a wandering garter up by my house once, I didn't think they came up to where I live and I had never seen one before in my life. I wish he didn't escape :( He was a cutie.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

An eastern garter in a western state. Now that makes sense. Pet store workers:rolleyes:


*ahem*

*cough* assistant manager of a large pet supply store *cough*

when customers come into our store they leave with the correct info. Sometimes... they leave a little overwhelmed (or even angry) at just how much stuff that cute little baby turtle actually needs :rolleyes:

no worries though... most "pet store workers" are morons.... I enjoy visiting other stores and correcting their entirely false information.

[kibakiba]

Most are because they dont have any knowledge,they just assume ;) The place i went to said a 10 gallon tank is big enough for a garter to live its full life, but the 20 gallon I got is getting too small for mine... I want a 75 gallon tank :D

[ConcinusMan]

Most are because they dont have any knowledge,they just assume ;)

And some just make sheet up so they seem knowledgeable.

@ Stefan: Seriously, many garter snakes are called common garter snakes. Somehow somewhere, it seems that somebody got the idea that this only applies to eastern garters. Even the Washington Dept of Wildlife lists species found in the state. "Common garter snake" is on the list. If it's a T. sirtalis, it's a common garter snake, regardless of subspecies. I still think it applies to garter snakes in general.

[kibakiba]

Yeah that's what I meant by assume :P

Common Garters here are the typical black with 2 tan side stripes and 1 stripe on the top that's either red or white, and I've seen a few with a light blue one.

[ConcinusMan]

I tend to think of the term "common garter snake" to apply to any garter snake. I don't take it as a name for any particular garter snake. I take it as a descriptive term. No matter where you live, if there are garter snakes, and they are common, well... 'nuff said.

To me, easterns are just that. Eastern garter snakes. Common garter snake is just a laymans term for those that recognize a snake as a garter snake but don't really go any further with the ID. That's why latin names are so important.

kibakiba, for sure, your snakes are a species that is the most common around that location you mentioned. Sound's reasonable to call it a "common garter snake". However, for the purpose of clarification you should refer to them as "Northwestern Garter Snake" or Thamnophis ordinoides. It's actually not necessary to spell out the first name since all garter snakes are Thamnophis. "T. ordinoides" or just "ordinoides" or "northwestern garter" will do just fine, and everyone here will know what snake you're talking about.;)


Yeah that's what I meant by assume :P

Common Garters here are the typical black with 2 tan side stripes and 1 stripe on the top that's either red or white, and I've seen a few with a light blue one.

I think it's really cool that you recognize those details and share them with us. When I was first learning about garter snakes, I had seen very few first hand and thought that all garter snakes were black with light yellow stripes. Those were northwestern garters in my neighborhood. I think you'll find out, as you travel around and see them in different places, one form or another is more common within a population of snakes. Just 2 or 5 miles away in a different northwestern garter population, they could mostly be tan with white stripes. Or mostly brown with white or yellow, but there's always some variation even in the same area, and you have seen that. Good observation.

So now, if you're still in the place where you found those northwestern garters, get yourself out to a pond, lake, or wetland and you might find a T.s. fitchii. (Thamnophis sirtalis fitchii, or Valley garter snake) It will be fast and colorful with red spots on it's side. They should be in that area. Or not.

[ConcinusMan]

yea i only, i was only comparing the similarity in the redstriped ordinoides that you had with the coloration of my annectans, they do look quite similar but obviously not an annectans, does anyone else have an annectans???

I agree, they do look similar but only if a northwestern happens to have similar colors. But annectans is a T. sirtalis and as such, has certain key traits common to all sirtalis. Northwestern garters also have their own key traits and their limited range really helps with I.D. They have a dinky little head for the size of their body and "no neck", and upper labials are 6, sometimes 7 (often 6 on one side 7 on the other). Any T. sirtalis in the northwest have offset heads and never less than 7 upper labials.

Anyway, it's easy to tell T. ordinoides apart from any sirtalis, including T. sirtalis annectans, if you look at more than color.;)

[kibakiba]

The pond was dried up and the owners of the area dug up the area, it's now very dry here. I've only seen those 3 colours of snakes here but the blue ones are totally gone. My friends dad had 10 garters and he paid me 60 dollars for a blue one once. He said they were extremely rare. But I haven't seen anyone with a northwestern garter with a blue stripe.
When I was a kid I think one of my dad's workers caught a valley garter snake and let me hold it for a while... Until it bit me and I started crying ;) I've always been interested in snakes, they just scared me when they bit :p

Have any of you seen the blue northwesterns? they look exactly like a regular garter here(black with tan sides) except the blue colour :)

[kibakiba]

Mama has literally transformed within a week. When I feed her she doesn't strike, she gently takes it, as if she was worried about biting me... She's calm and greets me when I walk by the tank, something Snakey usually did, and Mama only when she wanted food. And when I hold her she happily sits on my shoulder calmly for quite a while. Tonight she slithered right into my shirt and wont come out :p Looks like I'm whipped and she'll have her way... Pooping in my shirt or not ;)

Snakey's days away from shedding now... I'll try to get a picture of him when he's extra vibrant :D

[ConcinusMan]

Very cool. Looking forward to that.

[ssssnakeluvr]

The pond was dried up and the owners of the area dug up the area, it's now very dry here. I've only seen those 3 colours of snakes here but the blue ones are totally gone. My friends dad had 10 garters and he paid me 60 dollars for a blue one once. He said they were extremely rare. But I haven't seen anyone with a northwestern garter with a blue stripe.
When I was a kid I think one of my dad's workers caught a valley garter snake and let me hold it for a while... Until it bit me and I started crying ;) I've always been interested in snakes, they just scared me when they bit :p

Have any of you seen the blue northwesterns? they look exactly like a regular garter here(black with tan sides) except the blue colour :)

several people on here had blue northwesterns a few years ago.....got them from "Bob", a goon that was catching and selling "cool blue garters" on kingsnake.com. most were puget sound garters, but some were northwesterns. I haven't seen any recent photos of these snakes. not sure if they survived....Bob sold some crappy animals

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah, I do hear that the blue northwesterns occur in the south puget area. Same place as pickeringii. Weird huh? must be a local advantage to the blue.

[kibakiba]

I don't live anywhere near puget sound. I live in the Lake Stevens/Granite Falls area :P I believe that's pretty far from there. I feel bad for those snakes that guy caught... Maybe I'll see another blue northwestern one day and will be able to catch it, they're so pretty :D

[ConcinusMan]

You're still in Puget garter territory.;) Could be a blue puget you are seeing. And that is not far from puget sound at all. Well, technically Possession Sound, which is really just part of the greater Puget sound area.

You're not far from Everett. That area is known for blue pugets too. I'd say that the blue stripe garters you are seeing are most likely T.s. pickeringii. Less likely that they are northwesterns (T. ordinoides)

I can't find it right now but there's a pic out there with a guy holding a handful of blue pugets, caught near Everett. I'd be willing to bet money that if I were there, it wouldn't take me an hour to find and catch one.

[kibakiba]

I lived in everett for about 3 years, and I've only found the little "common garters" around there. Around here the blue guys looked just like Mama and Snakey... From the pugets I've seen they're all blue, correct? These had tan sides and pugets have blue sides.

[ConcinusMan]

Some variations of Puget sound garters that might be found in your area. They will probably be either blue, or greenish. They are typically larger than your "common" northwestern garters, have bigger heads for the size of their body, get much larger than northwestern garters, and normally are only found near water where there is an abundance of amphibians to eat. Northwesterns can be found far from water and do not require a good source of amphibians nearby.

Northwestern garters are small and highly variable within the same area. Pugets tend to be pretty much all the same in their area.

Puget sound garter T. sirtalis pickeringii:

Pierce County blue pugets:
http://www.californiaherps.com/noncal/northwest/nwsnakes/images/tspickerigibunchdp.jpg

King County puget:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2527/3993963175_4fef5f999a.jpg

Red phase puget typically found in extreme N washington and into Canada:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3353/3433343310_d1e66e49a4.jpg

So, NO. they are not always striking blue snakes;)

[kibakiba]

Well I had known that there were different morphs of them :) I hadn't seen the white one, though. But none of those look like the ones I had caught. Imagine Mama with a sky/light blue dorsal stripe, that's what it looked like. I can try to get a better picture of her if she decides to rest while I handle her. Her sides are a tan/light brown, which is what the blue snakes I found looked like. What I meant with the blue comment was, their dorsal stripe and sides are blue (or white), they look to be the same colour, right? The ones here are differently coloured :) Although I could understand that perhaps it was a different puget type? Another thing is, the pugets in the picture have such vibrant black colouring, the ones I had found varied from a slightly dull black to sort of brownish (like Mama). The one my friends dad had was pregnant and it was a deep brown with a blue stripe and tan sides :)

[ConcinusMan]

Well I had known that there were different morphs of them :) I hadn't seen the white one, though. But none of those look like the ones I had caught. Imagine Mama with a sky/light blue dorsal stripe, that's what it looked like. I can try to get a better picture of her if she decides to rest while I handle her. Her sides are a tan/light brown, which is what the blue snakes I found looked like. What I meant with the blue comment was, their dorsal stripe and sides are blue (or white), they look to be the same colour, right? The ones here are differently coloured :) Although I could understand that perhaps it was a different puget type? Another thing is, the pugets in the picture have such vibrant black colouring, the ones I had found varied from a slightly dull black to sort of brownish (like Mama). The one my friends dad had was pregnant and it was a deep brown with a blue stripe and tan sides :)

I'm a little confused but pictures help. The "white" puget you are referring to is not actually white. It's more of a yellow/greenish color. Only the stripes and face tend to be blue or greenish on pugets. The basic background color is always black or very dark. Side stripes and back stripe are always the same color. Northwestern garters have highly variable background color and the 3 stripe version (many only have a back stripe) usually has the side stripes a lighter or different color than the back stripe, like the one's you already showed us.

Deep brown with a blue stripe and tan sides does sound like a northwestern garter. A "common" garter in Washington State. actually, the most common reptile in the Pacific Northwest.

[kibakiba]

It shows up as white for me, bright colours put a strain on my eyes so most of the time its a little distorted for me ;). But the blue garters I had found do look like the snakes I have in my care :)

[ConcinusMan]

Pics. more pics. Get your tail outside and catch some of your local garter snakes and show us some pics. Would love to see them!

[kibakiba]

I've been looking around, no snakes in sight :( Hmm... Are there any pure black garters that would be in this area? My mom found one in early June that was pure black (according to her, she has bad eyes) I caught a glimpse of it and it wasn't normal. Hadn't thought about it 'til now. Perhaps if I wake up early enough I'll take a few laps around the field and see if I don't fond a couple snakes. The only problem with that is I might get attached ;)

[ConcinusMan]

With the warm weather, you can be in the right place at the wrong time very easily. In the place I go where the garter snake population is about to bust, go mid morning on a sunny day about 70 degrees... Nothing. Go in early morning when the sun is just starting to shine... nothing. not a single snake.

Go between 6pm and 8pm on a sunny day with a high of 80 or so, and you are practically tripping over them in the same area where I found nothing at other times of the day. Go figure. :rolleyes:

[kibakiba]

Ahh now I know when to go for when I need a new buddy for the day when Mama is doing nothing but pooping on me ;)
... Though they may not welcome me as a friend and end up pooping AND musking on me.. :( Hah.

[ConcinusMan]

They are just testing you. Some of my favorite and most loved garters musked very much and squirmed, and some even bit when we first met. Those turned out to be the tamest and nicest, and most wonderful pets I have now. Just took them a month or two, and several feedings to come around.;)

[kibakiba]

Oh it was like that with Mama, she HATED my guts it seemed haha, but now she's probably the tamest garter I've seen. She loves to sit on top of my head, on my shoulder, in my shirt, on my legs... And she is even gentle with taking food from me even when its from the tweezers. She won't take it from my fingers, she'll come up and look like she'd take it but then she examines my fingers and backs off. She's such a sweetie :)
She even appears to try to give me kisses, she comes right up to my lips and taps her nose on them and backs up a bit haha.

[kibakiba]

I got quite a few shots, Snakey's just too adorable.. Too bad he thinks the camera is something to cuddle with.
I got a couple of snakey, one of his shed, him and Mama being frisky.... Lol. and one when they were being extra cute, they were laying with their faces looking at each other. Unfortunately 1 moved when I took the pic ;)

[guidofatherof5]

Garter Snake Math
Most of the time, frisky snakes = baby snakes:D

[kibakiba]

Well when I had caught her I thought she was pregnant, she was the biggest garter I had ever seen :P So I named her Mama. Her and Snakey... Got "frisky" in early june, but Mama doesn't seem to be pregnant, she's not big in any sense besides her being the female :P If she did have babies, I'd give them a couple meals and let them go in the field. That's where I caught my snakes :) And speaking of big, it's time to give snakey a big meal :D he's skinny since he didnt eat for 2 weeks... He rejected everything so maybe now that he's all shed he'll eat something now.

[kibakiba]

Snakey took a pinky and Mama took 2 pinkies and a night crawler. I swear she's insane with eating. She seems to be begging me for more food right now ;) Runt was given cut up night crawlers, but he didn't take any I think he's about to shed, though.
Runt musked me the other day... My moms dog tried jumping up on my knees and it scared Runt so bad he musked and pooped on himself and me :( Poor little guy.

[guidofatherof5]

Good news on the eating:)
Bad dog, bad dog. On the jumping.:D

[kibakiba]

Yeah ;) she hates the snakes and is scared of them. She didn't know I had Runt I guess. Usually she'd be as far away as possible. That or she was jealous that I was loving on Runt instead of her and she wanted to get my attention ;)

Mama is so mean. I looked at the water dish today. She pooped on it, no different than the other days except the fact I'm scrubbing and scrubbing and it WONT come off! I've used soap, a little bit of diluted bleach, a scrubbing sponge, an old unused toothbrush.... It's as if she ate superglue and pooped it out!

[guidofatherof5]

Wow, I've never heard of tough poop before.:D

[kibakiba]

Haha, I got it off after soaking it for 30 minutes in hot water. Shes been having some pretty tough poop since she ate the fuzzy. I don't mean she has constipation, I made sure she was fine with that but she doesn't seem to have trouble going at all. It just gets extremely rock hard. I was hoping feeding her a night crawler with her pinks would maybe make it less hard, who knows. We'll see in a couple days. It seems like she's doubled in size over night :D She just seems.. Longer and her head is larger. Or maybe it's because I've been handling Snakey more since he's not grumpy anymore. He nipped me the night I fed them ;) I tried feeding him a worm but he wouldnit take it, so I gave it to Mama and then he decided to steal it, so I took him out and held him while she ate the worm, without washing the wormy smell off my fingers. He pinched my palm pretty hard. I only got one little prick that drew blood but that hurt! Haha. He hasn't bit me since the first month of owning him which is over a year. I jokingly said i wouldn't feed him for 2 weeks if he ever did it again. It seems like he heard me... He coiled up and put his tail over his head, Haha. It was so cute.

[kibakiba]

Guess which little one shed today? He's all pretty and soft! His stripe is still looking slightly brown, I wonder if it'll stay that way. Mama's stripe gets brown if she's getting close to shedding. I thought maybe his was like that because he was close to shedding, but nope! Maybe it'll turn whitish when he's older. I've never seen a snake around here with a brown stripe :) here's a couple pictures of him.

This one shows how tiny he is in comparison to my hand.
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/TinyRunt.jpg


Here's him slithering on the big snakes tank :P He got introduced to them... They weren't very welcoming.
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/Runt_Shed.jpg

Snakey tried getting frisky with him, not sure if it was a "welcome to my tank! I really like you!" or maybe Snakey just didn't get any with Mama so he decided to pick on Runt. Mama was looking at him with that "if you come any closer I WILL eat you!" type of look. I took him out after that, I didn't want to risk him getting hurt.

[ConcinusMan]

First sign that shedding is near with those snakes is the belly. it starts to turn gray/milky before you see signs on the upper parts. I have noticed that WC males tend to take a bit longer before they will eat. They are already quite thin, being males, and so you might have some concern with the not eating thing. Not to worry. The thing to watch for is the skin. I mean, if it gets kinda lose and starts to fold near the area where the lateral stripe is, or would be, then it's time to start getting concerned.

So far, judging from the pics you have provided, they look OK. Those last two pics, if male, he looks OK to me. Not at all critically underweight.

You do have to watch out with any garter when they're hungry. If you've been handling their food, you can pretty much expect to get bit. Just don't jerk back or overreact. Give them a minute to realize they can't swallow your hand. They'll let go on their own. Their rows of teeth are quite delicate. Don't want to do something that could cause mouth injury.

[kibakiba]

Runt is presumed male, I cant tell. He's too tiny. He may be female,though. As time goes on his tail seems more taper-y. He's a troubled eater since he gets spooked so easily. I cant feed him more than 2 pieces of nightcrawlers with them. I keep a dish with cut up nightcrawler in it if he wont take them from me. He doesnt always eat them, but at least I'm trying to feed him. He's kind of a shy eater. Gotta have his little log over the dish or he's too scared to eat. That or he'll snatch one and then quickly drag it to his hide. Maybe that's just his comfort zone when eating. He knows that there's nothing around to spook him in there :)

I know having wormy hands can cause a snake to bite. I was half expecting him to "omnomnom" on my finger, but he went for my palm. I didn't jerk back, as I know it could hurt him it just made me tense up a bit.

[ConcinusMan]

Try that with a 3.2 foot concinnus! My big girl nailed me on the palm once or twice while feeding. She draws blood.

[kibakiba]

Ouch! My mom got bit by a garter and it made her bleed pretty bad. That's why she used to hate garter snakes. She's actually held Mama, who she was deathly afraid of and let her slither around on her hands.

[guidofatherof5]

Tell Mom I'm proud of her.:)

[kibakiba]

She said thanks ;) maybe I'll have to sort out getting her a garter of her own :P

[kibakiba]

Oh and, Runt isn't underweight, I don't think. He was literally a runt when I caught him. He was only 3.5 inches when I caught him. I think he'll always be pretty small :)

[guidofatherof5]

Good things come in small packages.;)

[kibakiba]

Indeed they do. The only problem with this package is he's scared to eat :( tried feeding him the way I do with Mama and Snakey, with tweezers. He had none of that :P Spoiled little snake gets to eat from a dish while the others have to "beg" for food ;)

[guidofatherof5]

All that matters is he's eating;)

[Selkielass]

re: scared to eat.

I just had a breakthru with Abby!
She's been eating well, but only with a lot of coaxing and teasing, and even then her feeding response was weak and tentative- she would strike at the food, but not latch on, or latch on and then immediately let go. Privacy didn't help unless the food was moving on its own (Guppies and worms) and moving to a dark feeding container resulted in her just curling up in a corner.

Well, I went thrifting and yard-saleing yesterday, and I brought home a tall herp tank with artificial foliage, heater and cave. Spent the afternoon cleaning and sanitizing it, then combined her old rock, coconut shell water dish and lid with the new equipment, and after she was introduced, she spent the evening exploring her new 'Jungle'.

Offered her pinkies today, as she was hiding in the foliage, and she immediately struck it hard and fast, and downed it in seconds! I offered her another, and she took it nearly as quickly. Because I had it in the dish, I offered her the nightcrawler, and she even downed that!

Being tangled up in the silk plant seems to make her feel secure in a way the hides never did. Perhaps runt would feel more secure striking out from a bit of dollar-store greenery also?

[mustang]

nice snakes

[kibakiba]

his little tank has 2 plastic plants and his hide in there :) I got him to eat most of one of my baby nightcrawlers... he's nice and fat now ;) He's asleep in my hand right now. It's so cute!

[kibakiba]

Mama is slithering backwards quite a bit today, is that normal? She's been doing it a little the past few days but I didn't thing anything of it, but i was letting her sit on my desk and she started slithering backwards and then she slithered onto my legs, turned around and slithered backwards up to my stomach. I've never seen her do that before. She slithered backwards when I put her in her tank again. She's eating fine and acts normal, just slithers backwards sometimes. Maybe I'm overreacting but I haven't seen a garter snake do that :P

[Stefan-A]

My wandering garters use that slithering backwards routine to get out of your grip when you handle them.

[kibakiba]

I wasn't holding her when she was on my desk or on my leg, or in her tank. She does pull herself backwards if she doesn't want me handling her, but this was her just... freely slithering backwards.

[Stefan-A]

I'm not talking about pulling backwards, I'm talking about freely slithering backwards.

Nevermind.

[kibakiba]

I mean it in a different sense but :P I didn't have my hand anywhere near her and I wasn't planning on moving her unless she got close to the edge. but again, I had never seen her do that so it made me curious.

[ConcinusMan]

My ordinoides and concinnus do that but usually only after they've grabbed a mouth full of food and don't want it to get stolen by the others. Sometimes the backward slithering goes all the way up the wall!

[kibakiba]

Haha, I've seen snakey do that when I fed him a pinky. He went up the tank and almost out of it. Maybe he was trying to trick me into letting him out of there :P She hasnt gotten food in about 4 days... She's been staring at my fingers hungrily lately ;)

[ConcinusMan]

That's a good thing. That's how you earn their trust and they come to think of you as their provider. That's how a "tame" garter made. That's how it starts.

[kibakiba]

Indeed. She's very tame now, its just easy to tell when shes hungry, she sees me near the tank and rushes out to see if I brought pinkies... There's a little glass that I use when I thaw the pinks, she goes over to it and stares at it. Haha, she's such a pig :)

[kibakiba]

Mama's acting strange today. She's very skittish for one, she never really flinches or gets spooked when I take the top off, but today she got really scared when I opened it to change their water. When I picked her up around an hour ago she was breathing really fast and every third or fourth breath she took a big breath, enough to puff herself up a little bit. She also occasionally looked like she ate something, like pushing it down. I put her back in the tank because I thought maybe I had stressed her out but she appears to be doing the breathing thing still. Snakey's been trying to mate with her a lot also... He chased her around the tank for an hour. I took him out about 20 minutes ago and Mama came out to rest on top of the hide. When I put Snakey back she just sat there and let him slither on top of her. He doesn't seem so into her now. Other than the breathing and skittishness she's acting pretty normal, not as curious as she normally is, though. She just sat around on my hand when I held her. I got some pictures of the little bit of friskiness and runt when he was eating earlier today. He's more trusting of me now, he actually ate from the tweezers today.


Ignore the camera flash, sweetheart...
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/FriskyAgain2.jpg


Noooo... Leave me alone darn it!
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/FriskyAgain.jpg

Smile big for the camera! :D
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/Smile_.jpg

[ConcinusMan]

Honestly, what you described sounds like she's about to have babies.:eek:

Don't be one bit surprised if you find a litter any day now.

[kibakiba]

She seems too small to have babies! Should I put her or Snakey in a different enclosure? I don;t have anything suitable to really put them in :/ Snakey could go in Runts tank, he seems to enjoy the company haha.

It's really hard to believe that Mama would be pregnant, but would be fitting of her name ;). But really, she hasn't really gained any weight at all, at least she doesn't look bigger. All mothers probably wish they didn't get bigger when they were pregnant ;)

[ConcinusMan]

Well, it could also be that the female is just ready to breed. Ordinoides can breed at different times of the year. In the wild some breed in very early spring, others in fall. Basically they can breed any time of year and sometimes to multiple males. The sperm is held until the female is ready to ovulate, then she becomes gravid. That's one of the reasons you can't count on babies a certain number of days after breeding. I have had small females that didn't look gravid but dropped a couple of babies anyway, say 2 or 3.

[kibakiba]

That makes sense. So, should I just leave both of them in there for now?

[ConcinusMan]

I see no reason to separate them. If babies happen to appear, separate those from the big ones.

[kibakiba]

Will do :)
They've been sleeping all day... Mama is coiled up on top of poor little Snakey... She uses him like a pillow all the time, haha poor guy.

[kibakiba]

Mama's been sitting in her water dish for 20 minutes. She's a bit more calm today and seems to be wanting attention, she's rubbing her nose on the glass and when I put my hand in the tank she slithered over and coiled up in my hand. She's so cute :)

[kibakiba]

Tonight was feeding time for the adults, Snakey at two pinkies! Mama was extremely skittish, she didn't eat anything and if it moved slightly it scared her out of her wits. I wiggled the pinky and she took off and smacked against the glass :( I held her for a little bit and she just kind of laid there limp for a while, she didn't slither around very much but she was interested in my web cam ;) I was showing her to my boyfriend and she came up to the web cam and stuck her nose in the lens. Poor Mama. At least Snakey has his belly so full he can't barely move :P

[guidofatherof5]

Tonight was feeding time for the adults, Snakey at two pinkies! Mama was extremely skittish, she didn't eat anything and if it moved slightly it scared her out of her wits. I wiggled the pinky and she took off and smacked against the glass :( I held her for a little bit and she just kind of laid there limp for a while, she didn't slither around very much but she was interested in my web cam ;) I was showing her to my boyfriend and she came up to the web cam and stuck her nose in the lens. Poor Mama. At least Snakey has his belly so full he can't barely move :P

I can tell you know your snakes. That's good for all of you.:D

[kibakiba]

Yep ;) both Mama and Snakey enjoy attacking their "daddy" on the web cam. Runt doesn't so much but Mama and Snakey are all over it. The little camera whores :D

[kibakiba]

Well today's attempt to feed them in a different enclosure failed. I've been trying to get them to eat in a cardboard box I have so that they wont eat their shavings when I feed them things like worms. If i dont I have to keep bothering them with tweezers to pick off the shavings so they don't swallow them. They really hate that and Mama hisses at me a little when I try to with her. Maybe she doesn't understand that its harmful for her to eat... Lol. Anyone have any tips to help get them used to eating in the box rather than in their tank?

[guidofatherof5]

It's all just training. I'm rehabbing a Bull snake that was never given any social time. All it knows is that when someone gets into the enclosure it must be feeding time. It's taken a few month to break the training. He now has learned that there is more than just food time.
You might try something other than a cardboard box. Something more clear may keep them calm. A dark box might mean sleep to them.
A plastic shoe box style feeding enclosure might work better.
Best of luck and keep us posted on your success.

[kibakiba]

It's an open large box :) they gobble stuff down fast so I dont see any point in leaving them in there for too long, its large enough that they cant escape, too. Next feeding I'll keep it near me while their in there just in case one of them develops a plan to go on vacation :P

[ConcinusMan]

It can be frustrating to get babies to eat the first month or two. Sometimes they are freaked out by your intrusion and won't eat, or for any number of reasons, won't eat.

I'm with Steve on this one. Try an escape proof plastic tub. (locking escape proof, tight fitting top, moist babies can scale walls, size doesn't matter, don't fall for that one) Just pluck them up and put them in there, bare tub, with small pieces of food. Keep them warm perhaps by heat pad on part of the bottom, and let them settle down in there for several hours or the entire day if necessary. I think you'll find that once they calm down and feel comfortable, the food will disappear.

You can't be in a hurry and keep moving them back and forth, so be patient. It took several tries to get my recent litters to eat. Do yourself a favor and don't use any particulate substrate. paper towels work fine if anything is used. If they are more willing to eat in their tank it's because they are settled and not feeling vulnerable. All the more reason to just line it with towels or something like that which is not a swallowing hazard then go ahead and feed them in there.

[kibakiba]

It's not baby snakes, it's Mama and Snakey... I can't afford to buy anything, not even a box of 3 pinkies for until next month, even then I probably cant afford to buy more than a little bit of food for them. Bills are too high. I have paper towels in the box and a couple paper towel roll things in there.
I like to pamper my snakes, they like to burrow in the aspen shavings and news paper stuff. It's easier for them to get to their water dish , it's not that high but they can just get right to it. That's the main reason I'm trying to get them to eat in a different area.

[flickerfriend]

his little tank has 2 plastic plants and his hide in there :) I got him to eat most of one of my baby nightcrawlers... he's nice and fat now ;) He's asleep in my hand right now. It's so cute!
Awwww your making me wish my wc wasnt so aggresive! i miss my snakies back in oregon :(

[ConcinusMan]

Nice Oregon Red spot you got there in your avatar Flickerfriend. Looks familiar ;)

[flickerfriend]

Nice Oregon Red spot you got there in your avatar Flickerfriend. Looks familiar ;)
Hehe thanks ^^ Thats a pic my mom (Flicker) took :)

[kibakiba]

Awwww your making me wish my wc wasnt so aggresive! i miss my snakies back in oregon :(

Some snakes calm down over time, some don't. That's one of the fun things about garter snakes. They all have their own little personalities :)
Of course, it's never fun to have an aggressive snake when you want to keep it. Mama used to be aggressive and would hiss and strike at me from time to time but any time I was going into the tank it was to feed her and Snakey or to change the water, so she slowly learned that I'm not going to hurt her. :)

[ConcinusMan]

Some snakes calm down over time, some don't. That's one of the fun things about garter snakes. They all have their own little personalities :)
Of course, it's never fun to have an aggressive snake when you want to keep it. :)

That first sentence is very true but I don't agree with the last one. I've had plenty of aggressive snakes such gopher snakes and king snakes that were hostile as heck. Sometimes I like a snake with a bit of attitude. :p Nothing wrong with that, and yes, it can be fun to have one.:D

[kibakiba]

Awww, but Richard.... I really love cute and cuddly snakes. Your a man, you like violent things. I'm a woman I like cute and cuddly things... Like ponies, kittens and baby garter snakes...:p

[ConcinusMan]

Hey now! I hate violence. I just like it when snakes with attitudes continue to be themselves in captivity, in spite of my "I love you and will care for you always" response to them. I just want them to be comfortable, well cared for and content. If they are being themselves, and that includes a bit of nipping, striking, and downright nastiness, than I wouldn't want them to go changing for little ol' me.

I always have the choice to release them, or otherwise make them absent from my life. That's a choice everyone has when keeping snakes. Hopefully everyone's choices have the snake's best interest in mind no matter how "mean" that snake is.;)

Don't be so quick to judge. I am a sensitive and caring man who hates violence and has a hard time coming to terms with war and hate. I don't relate to it one bit. I love my snakes because they are so elegant, prefect, and beautiful, even if they are mean!

[kibakiba]

Well, striking nipping and otherwise biting is violent :P But I so understand liking them having attitudes ;) it was cute when runt thought that he could get the best of me when he bit my finger. He held on for quite a while and I just sat there smiling cause it was funny how much he was trying to swallow. The tip of my finger is about 4 times the size of his little head but he still tried to swallow it all. After a while he let go of it and ran for his hide, probably humiliated that he couldn't be big and tough :D
I don't much like real violence. My boyfriend and I are gamers so I do the video game violence stuff but I cant even handle real life violence. I've had enough of it in my lifetime to know to avoid it completely. I can tell you're sensitive and caring by the way you talk about your snakes ;) and how attached you are to the little ones.
Sssspeaking of snakes, Mama and Snakey are sleeping right next to each other and her head is rested on his. It's so cute. They're the cutest couple ever.

[ConcinusMan]

It's not violence per se... they just don't know any better.. afterall.. they are only huma.. oh wait. nevermind. :p

[kibakiba]

Hah ;). I know they don't know any better... Snakey's not a little meanie to me usually, but he's bitten me 3 times. 2 broke the skin and you know what happened ;). Like I said, all part of the job.

[ConcinusMan]

That's odd. I've never had a garter that continued to be mean. They've always settled down for me.

[kibakiba]

Yes, that's how it's gone for me. Mama was... Uhh.. a... Your ringtone :D
Hahaha. Now she's the sweetest little garter I've ever had. She's getting pretty fat too. I haven't fed her in a week and she's gaining weight anyway. Shes my little chubby, chubby chubs!! Haha, I think if she could read she'd go for my neck. Runt still strikes at me sometimes but I know he's really young and to him I'm a serious threat, but I do provide food, shelter, water and warmth ;)

[ConcinusMan]

Yes, that's how it's gone for me. Mama was... Uhh.. a... Your ringtone :D
Hahaha. Now she's the sweetest little garter I've ever had. She's getting pretty fat too. I haven't fed her in a week and she's gaining weight anyway. Shes my little chubby, chubby chubs!!


Hmmmm.... prego perhaps?

[kibakiba]

Well she did have that incident with Snakey when she spun him around and all (if you don't know what I'm talking about I posted it on the Found of youtube thread, first video I posted there) I wouldn't be surprised if she was. I was disappointed a while ago since they did mate in late June and she wasn't pregnant. The only problem is that she would probably give birth late and I'll have to surrender all my worms to the little ones for a few months ;)

[ConcinusMan]

Oh, I see. I would say it's very likely she's gravid if you witnessed a mating. Just because the mating happens doesn't mean she'll be gravid right away. In fact, she could save the sperm and ovulate a year or more later. Thats one of the reasons you can't really predict when northwesterns will have their babies, based on the date of copulation. Dang girls can hold off and ovulate later when they feel like it. It is thought that the sperm can remain viable for several years.

[kibakiba]

Yeah, I read about that. But with how fat she's getting it makes me wonder. Pretty soon she'll be python sized at the rate shes growing :rolleyes:

[flickerfriend]

could you post a piccy of mama? some of the other members may be able to tell.

[kibakiba]

Her and Snakey don't like me right now. I'm pretty sick, or as my boyfriend says... I'm a sicko ;) But anyways, they wont even come near my hand. If she was she'd just be... I don't know, I think I caught them at it a week or 2 ago. If I weren't sick they'd probably let me pick them up, but only Snakey has let me so far. In a couple days when I feel better I'll be taking some pictures of all of them :D

[guidofatherof5]

Her and Snakey don't like me right now. I'm pretty sick, or as my boyfriend says... I'm a sicko ;) But anyways, they wont even come near my hand. If she was she'd just be... I don't know, I think I caught them at it a week or 2 ago. If I weren't sick they'd probably let me pick them up, but only Snakey has let me so far. In a couple days when I feel better I'll be taking some pictures of all of them :D

Sending prayers your way for a
speedy recovery.

[kibakiba]

Aww, thanks Steve! The stomach part isn't as bad now, it's the fever I'm battling with right now. The last time I checked, about an hour ago, it was 105 :eek: I haven't had a fever that high since I went to Red Lobster 10 years ago and got food poisoning from mozzarella sticks :D

[guidofatherof5]

105 is pretty high. A cool shower or bath may help.
Much higher and I would be very concerned.
Please be careful.

[kibakiba]

I've been taking fever reducers and that helped my 104.5 last night pretty quickly. It doesn't help that I heat up and cool down so quickly, because I've been wrapped in a blanket for the past 3 hours. If it does start shooting up again I'm going to take my behind to the hospital. Mostly because I have a spider bite also and if it's not the stomach bug, it's the bite.

[Selkielass]

If it might be the spider bite, Benadryl (Or the generic equivalent) should help with swelling and itching- reducing the swelling is often enough to allow improved blood flow so the body can take care of things itself.
Don't ignore danger signals, of course, but benadryl and warm compresses or warm soaks in soapy water (Yay hot baths!) can be very soothing and help things to clear up on their own more quickly.

I'm a beekeeper and I often have to deal with multiple annoying but not life-threatening bites and stings.

Another thing that really helps- If the sting or bite is fresh, meat tenderizer really does help denature the proteins in the venom. A slice of papaya will do the same, but enzyme based meat tenderizer is more concentrated and easier to keep on hand. (Tho the salt in it kinda sucks.)

[kibakiba]

Ouch! I couldn't put anything on this except witch hazel. I have severe allergies so I do tend to take things like benadryl on a frequent basis. It's not really itchy, ever since I got it it's been very sore. It's getting a lot better, though. It's starting to look more like "normal" but the skin is still... Yeah. It's really gross.

[ConcinusMan]

Wait sec. I lose track of who's who now and then but let me get this straight. You got bit by a spider, the wound is infected and you're running a high fever? Jeez, last time I had a temperature that was 104.7 I was hallucinating (from the high fever) I told you before, if you get a fever from that bite, or infection, (red and very painful) go to the hospital immediately!

I'm betting you did get infected with staph from the spider bite. Happens nearly every time. Once you develop a fever from the infection reaching your blood you need to hospitalized ASAP! No time to waste. Still wondering what the heck you were doing at home in that condition. It's life threatening. Heck, you can die from fever alone as high as it is.

I see your last post was the 21st. I'm hoping you got admitted to the hospital and that you recover. Hope you're OK.

[kibakiba]

It's all healed up, Richard ;) I had the flu also and I have an extremely weak immune system, so I get sick easily and I get pretty bad. But the bite is 100% healed I just have a little bit of a scar. I've had 2 of these before, this one was just the worst. I haven't had the fever for 2 days and I feel good, last night I was too hyper to sleep, without having any sugar or caffeine. That's really rare for me... Especially after being sick. Oh, And I didn't have hallucinations from that high of a fever. My body is probably used to trippy states as I've had to take hallucination causing Adderall.

Also, The snakes no longer mind the box for eating. Mama ate a large night crawler from a little bowl and so did Snakey, but he grabbed a larger one and it ended up crawling out of his mouth :( He didn't seem to want to eat after that. He coiled up in the hide I put in there. Poor little guy. First, Mama drags him around the tank, now his food crawls right out of his mouth!

[ConcinusMan]

Jeez, you had me worried. Are you sure it was just flu? seems an odd coincidence. the bite, and then...

But anyway, 104.7 was the highest fever I've ever had. It happened from onset to hospital in less than 24 hours and I was hallucinating.(brain was cooking) I was considering waiting a day being how it had only been one day of fever but the Dr. told me if I had waited, I could have died before morning. It was a simple spider bite like you described. The venom wasn't dangerous and it took about 4 days for the fever to start. Once the fever set in, I went to the hospital about 24 hours later and nearly died! The infection in the blood causes heart valves to swell shut.. 'nuff said.

Thing is, I had just gotten over a severe 15 day cold. Or so I thought. Then the bite, and infection...

Damn spiders. Been bitten before and after that incident. Friggen staph infection followed every time.:mad: At the very least, if I go right away, they have to cut that sucker open and let it drain, followed by huge shot of antibiotics in my as.. I was saying.:rolleyes:

[kibakiba]

I've gotten the flu many, many times. Probably more than you have in your lifetime and I'm 22 :P I'm fine now, I feel good. Probably a little too hyper for my own well being. I wouldn't want to go to the hospital anyways. I hate hospitals and I'd have a panic attack. I was crying when I had an ultrasound to check my stomach for problems. It's seriously scary for me. Besides, the bites on an awkward place and I wouldn't even show my boyfriend where it was. Not a good excuse but to me that's good enough as long as I'm feeling fine. Hell, I have a lot coming up, therapist, psychiatrist and school. Stress alone makes me sick. Which is why I'm awake... I see the T and P tomorrow... Funnn... Lol.

[ConcinusMan]

I don't know about that. Had flu two or three times a year up until about 17 years old. Really bad flu. Really high fever. After 17 (I'm 40 now) only had it twice and it was mild. Weird huh? No flu as an adult, even when other adults in the house were bad sick with it. Glad you're feeling better.

I know all about stress, I have strong benzodiazapines on hand for that. I have full out panic attacks occasionally. Seriously. I have bad episodes sometimes, requiring DRUGS!

I have to leave for work shortly. got off work at 11:30 last night. Didn't bother sleeping. Here I go again...:eek:

[kibakiba]

I know the panic feeling. I have adhd and I'm trying to find a perfect med for it for while I'm in school.

On a more scaly note... I just realized how closely my adult snakes are like my boyfriend and I :D Snakey is all over the place, hyper, crazy and strange... Like my boyfriend. And Mama is calm, chubby, cuddly and weird sometimes... Like me, Haha it's funny how much they're like us. Snakey's had to deal with his "dad" a whole year though... Mama doesn't know just how crazy it gets. Only I do. Hah. :D

[kibakiba]

Here's some pictures of Mama... :D I don't know if you can see it in these pictures but her belly is growing :) These were taken on Sept. 20, oddly enough, her belly is even bigger now(without food in it)

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/Mama_coiled.jpg

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/Mama_slither.jpg

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/Mama_watch.jpg

Enjoy! :D

[ConcinusMan]

Might want to consider the possibility that she is gravid. Too early to say but could be?

[guidofatherof5]

Nice looking snake, Mama is.
Yes, I enjoyed.

[kibakiba]

Well I did mark off the day I caught her mating with Snakey and if she is she'd probably be due around November.

[ConcinusMan]

Like I've said before, the number of days since mating means nothing with this species. She could have become gravid right away, or they can wait until a year or so after the last mating. Still, there's a pretty good chance she is, I would say.

[kibakiba]

Well, lets say she did get pregnant right away, she'd be due in November. You don't need to seem like a know-it-all on this. Her belly is getting bigger without her eating a whole bunch so it kind of seems like she is. Right? Sheesh.

[ConcinusMan]

Yup. I'd say she's probably gravid. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out. In fact, a rocket scientist probably wouldn't even have a clue about such matters.

If you get an opportunity to weigh her soon, do it. (in grams if possible) then weigh her about 30 days later. A significant increase in weight will all but confirm it.;)

[kibakiba]

I only have a human scale and I know she doesn't fit the 25 pound limit on it ;) No money to but a little scale for her, we're going to be spending the rest of our little bit of non-bill money on Tiny's guppies and we're buying a little tank to keep them in since I don't think Tiny would eat 5 guppies in just a day or two

[ConcinusMan]

No worries, Chantel. Visual and behavior observations (and you do seem to have very good observational skills) are enough to "know" if a snake is gravid, especially live-bearing snakes. You'll see her getting thicker, especially the lower 1/3 of her body.

Money or access to a scale doesn't matter as long as you love your snakes, you are knowledgeable of their needs, and can provide for their relatively meager needs. (food, climate and housing) Northwesterns are very hardy. They can do well and have successful litters even under less than ideal conditions. Your snakes look very healthy so I think you've been doing well for them.

I will offer some advice based on experience with northwestern garters. Do not provide bottom heat such as hot rocks or undertank heaters. The snakes are somewhat dumb and will sit on that bottom heat and "cook" the developing eggs within them. Even when they are gravid, it's better to keep them cooler than comfortable than it is to allow them to get too warm.

Also, do provide a regular day/night cycle. That is pretty important. Night time should have at least a 10 degree drop in temperature and night should be uninterrupted darkness. If they don't have a sense of day/night which includes appropriate temperature fluctuations, problems with appetite and hormones can occur and that can disrupt their natural biorhythms.

What I mean is, if you were a snake being kept by a giant, and you kept getting your nights interrupted and/or you room (cage) was too warm or too cold at the wrong times, you wouldn't feel very good about that, would you?

And now, she's likely gravid. Best "middle of the road" solution would be to keep her at nice warm from light above, daytime temperatures (80-85 on the warm end, 70-75 on cool end should be fine) but drop the temps at night. Keep it dark and cool at night. She'll sleep better and so will her babies.;)

Also, try to feed her right after she's fully warmed up early in the day. If not, then feed her near "bedtime";)

[kibakiba]

I wouldn't use a heat pad or rock on my garters, my friend rescues boas and one owner killed her snake by letting it sit on the pad all day and night, the whole snakes body was completely burned. My friend tried saving the snake but it was just too far gone. I also have the adult light on the babies because of the money problems but I have my heater near one side of the tank and I occasionally turn it on just to heat it up on that side (but not for long) They get the temperatures that I get naturally, and since this is their normal temp around this time I figure it's more "natural" besides the warmness from when the heater is on low. I usually feed her later in the day, she gets the babies left overs because I always cut way more than I need. Just that feeds her and Snakey. If we do happen to buy the guppies I'll get another lamp and light for them to have. It's rough times this year. Luckily my mom may get a job soon. Then the snakes get even more pampered because she loves them so much :rolleyes:

[guidofatherof5]

I have read many horror stories about heat rocks burning animals.
Using a rheostat will greatly reduce any chance of burns from under tank heaters.
Heat rocks also give the opportunity for escape since the cord as a rule goes out the top of the enclosure.
Now, with that being said I also don't know if the new heat rocks have addressed the over heating problems.
I used many under tanks heaters and so far have never had a problem. I hope this continues.

[kibakiba]

Around here the lamps and lights (that last 6+ months) cost a lot less than the rocks anyways, I wouldn't even risk using a rock though I find my lamps work just fine, even if I have to turn them off myself ;)

[ConcinusMan]

I have to tell you, I do use a heat pad for the babies which I bought in anticipation of their arrival. I knew I would have to heat plastic tubs somehow so I bought it.

However, this is not your ordinary reptile heat pad. Those in my opinion (I have one I don't use) get way to hot, especially if placed under substrate and are only really suitable for placing vertically on glass.

For $29 I bought a heat pad that is big enough to heat the entire underside of a 20 gallon long tank, and whats more, it doesn't get too hot, even sitting on carpet with a heavy tank on top, and that's because it isn't made for reptiles and yet, it's perfect for this purpose. It's better than the pads (and cheaper) made specifically for reptiles!

Here it is. I bought it at a garden center: (ignore the 20X20 thing. That's a bunch of bull, or it's a typo. It's a long rectangle for cryin' out loud)

Amazon.com: Hydrofarm MT10008 20-by-20-Inch Seedling Heat Mat: Patio, Lawn & Garden (http://www.amazon.com/Hydrofarm-MT10008--20-Inch-Seedling-Heat/dp/B000E3DDP2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1286499690&sr=8-1)

And you can even get a thermostat for it if you wish!

Amazon.com: Hydrofarm MTPRTC Digital Thermostat For Heat Mats: Patio, Lawn & Garden (http://www.amazon.com/Hydrofarm-MTPRTC-Digital-Thermostat-Heat/dp/B000NZZG3S/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1286499690&sr=8-3)

I like this solution much better than what I've seen for reptiles. If you must use a heat mat, this is the way to go. Tested and used by yours truly. It works great, and only gently warms the bottom. No hot spots!

[kibakiba]

I used a heating pad for Runt when she was in the plastic container before the 20 gallon. I kept it on low or medium through out the day, but kept it on low at night since it gets very cold here. Now its used to keep my crickets toasty.

[kibakiba]

Here's a couple pictures of Snap. She's so cute :D
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/Snapy.jpg

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/Snap.jpg

[guidofatherof5]

Snap is looking good.

[kibakiba]

Who knew? Garters are good at helping you study for your GED!
Here's Mama helping me study the math section. :D

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/SDC11134.jpg

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/SDC11136.jpg


Between her naps she gives me good advice, like "hiss", "-flicks tongue-" and pooping on my leg. :D

[guidofatherof5]

It had to be math, as garters are good at multiplying:D

[kibakiba]

Indeed, she knows multiplication well... As does Snakey... But this math is harder than just that, after a while she didn't want to help me anymore. :D

[kibakiba]

Well I got a new one... It's not surprising. My mom found a baby, probably not older than a month or two. He looks like Tiny, only three times bigger. ;) My mom made the mistake of giving him to me, and he had that cute little face that said "I'd like some food please..." and I couldn't resist taking him in. He's only a tad bit skittish if you move really fast around him but I was holding him for probably 30 minutes and he just hung out with me. :D I introduced him to his future tank mates and they all seemed to like him, they came up and "sniffed" him and slithered around him a little before he slithered under the log where Tiny was and coiled up with him. They look cute together. His name is Squirt and I'll have some pics of him maybe tomorrow. I'm going to let him get used to his new surroundings a bit.

[guidofatherof5]

Thanks great. Sounds like he should fit in nicely.
Please keep in mind implementing some kind of quarantine period for new arrivals.
It not only protects your current snakes but also protect the new ones.
I'm not trying to tell you how to raise your animals but I do know how much they mean to you and how much you want protect them.
A quarantine period helps protect them.;)

[kibakiba]

Yes, I wanted to but I really don't have anywhere to keep him that would be "snake proof" and I cannot get a new enclosure that he could stay in until next month. Even then I don't know if my mom would want to spend more money on tanks, or more places to keep the tanks ;) I cant fit another in my room, but maybe in my bedroom but the temperatures stay around 85-60 in the winter and I'm not sure if that would be suitable for a garter.

[kibakiba]

My mom and I decided to let my crickets go free and feel the wind between their wings. :p The enclosure they were in is being washed and readied for "Squirt" the new guy. I'll keep him in there for a while, a good quarantine time would be 3 months? He seems to be happy with the others, but he'll be fine in his own little pad... instead of sharing a room with 2(or 3) girls and a boy ;) :D

[guidofatherof5]

My mom and I decided to let my crickets go free and feel the wind between their wings. :p The enclosure they were in is being washed and readied for "Squirt" the new guy. I'll keep him in there for a while, a good quarantine time would be 3 months? He seems to be happy with the others, but he'll be fine in his own little pad... instead of sharing a room with 2(or 3) girls and a boy ;) :D

That's great news. 3 months will work just fine.
Squirt will do great and this way you can give him some one-on-one time. He'll like that.

[kibakiba]

Yes, he's pretty tame for a wild caught baby, usually they're pretty feisty, biting, musking and all round going crazy when you pick them up. He didn't musk or strike at my mom, and he calmed down even more when he was in my hands. He doesn't seem to enjoy being away from his friends, he's been trying to get out of the enclosure since I stuck him in there! But at least this way I can keep my others safe, while getting him used to me as well. I had a hard time telling Tiny and Squirt apart, luckily I remembered that Tiny had pooped on herself. :D

Tiny seems to have grown overnight, I thought she was smaller than Squirt, but he's only slightly larger than he is, and he looks to have missed no meals haha.

[gregmonsta]

They do grow like weeds when the mood strikes them :D

[kibakiba]

Indeed, I love thinking back to when Snakey was a baby (probably a year old when I got him, or less). It seems like yesterday... He's all grown up now and he's living with his girlfriend now... He doesn't like it when his mom visits him anymore. :( Haha.

[kibakiba]

I made some serious progress with Snap!! Shes been so calm for the last 20 minutes. I feel so happy I could cry. She usually "spazzes" any time I hold her, musking and pooping everywhere. When I first grabbed her 30 minutes ago, she did just that. She even bit me a little. I think after 10 minutes she got tired and rested in my hand. I softly stroked her back while she rested and it was almost like magic, after she started slithering around again, it wasn't panicky or super fast. She's even sleeping in my hand right now. she doesn't seem to mind me stroking her, either

[guidofatherof5]

Many of my snakes get used to being touched while they are out. It all just takes time and sometimes longer times with a few.
Sounds like Snap is beginning to trust you. Don't be surprised if Snap take a few steps back now and them. Instinctive behavior is hard to re-write and overcome.
I have some that stay sound asleep even after I've opened the enclosure. I reach in and rub their neck to get them up. Then they slowly raise their head with this "why'd you wake me " look.
For me, that's when I know they trust me.

[kibakiba]

I know, I had a feeling she'd still be jumpy and she is, but I'm holding her right now nd she's starting to calm down again. None of my babies are as tame and trusting as yours are, but since I'm not doing school, I have time to give each one of them at least 30 minutes of my time a day, if not more. Mama is the tamest and she'll probably get to come out for longer since she'll just sleep on me while I do my studies :) Snap seems to enjoy sleeping in my hand. She seems to know when I don't trust her not to fly off my hand when she rests and ends up trying to do just that. I try to show her that I trust her not to do anything by opening my hand while she's resting. She calms down faster and starts to allow me to touch her without her head jerking back or getting jumpy. Normally I don't handle the babies much, that think my hand just means food. Even Tiny, he doesn't want anything to do with me unless it's food, when he was the one that would slither into my hand and curl up. With Squirt being so new, small and jumpy, I dont hold him much. Instead, I hold my hand in his tank and let him inspect me If he comes on my hand I gently and slowly lift him up and it spooks him a lot less. Snap still thinks pooping will deter me from holding her... :D Haha, she presented me 2 big loads of poop.

[guidofatherof5]

That Snap is so giving.:D

[kibakiba]

Indeed she is, it smells of fish... that makes it even better...:rolleyes:

She got to sleep on my bed and have a nice long neck massage. :D

[kibakiba]

I made more progress with Snap, along with Tiny, Ember and Runt. :D Snap didn't freak out as much when I took off the top of the enclosure and picked her up. She was still a little wriggly and scared, but calmed down a lot quicker and seemed to feel more comfortable just falling asleep on me. She slept on my hand for about 10 minutes and I woke her up accidentally by rubbing her neck. I didn't think she would wake up but she looked up at me when I did then slithered around my fingers. She was so calm with me and less jumpy when I moved. The next one to get some love was Ember. He got really skittish and musked me when I picked him up, but I was talking to him in a soft voice, they cant hear me but it does seem to help them calm down. He stopped fighting with me and wasn't as fast with moving. He didn't let me rub his neck, it scared him a bit so I just let him slither around on me for 15 minutes before putting him back. After Ember was Tiny, who did not want anything to do with me but after a little talking and holding him softly, he calmed down quickly and didn't mind me touching him or picking him up to move him. I cant really rub his neck because he's so tiny. Runt didn't even fight when I picked her up and was extremely calm while holding her. She wrapped around my fingers a lot and didn't stop moving. She's not really calm enough to relax on me or sleep on me. Hopefully she'll calm down more with some extra work. :D

[ConcinusMan]

The not-so-calm ones do calm a bit with handling but it seems you've pretty much got a good picture of their dispositions. They will pretty much stay in character from here on out. The squirmy ones get good exercise with the handling you give them. It's good for them and builds their trust in you, but sometimes they just stay squirmy or resist handling, others are calm.

It's funny, snap and ember both were very calm and didn't mind me handling them one bit. I think they just instinctively react different to different handlers. In other words, those two like me better than you.:p

[kibakiba]

Well they are showing less squirminess now. Snap automatically didnt like me when I got them, Ember was a little sweetheart. Since I got them before I was in school, I handled them more, then once I started school I stopped most handling. I've since dropped out to get my GED because my school considered learning to be 15 hours of writing essays every day to be learning.:rolleyes:

Snap and Ember only seem to really like me when I have their favourite food. Snap, of course is learning to love sleeping on my hand and getting pampered with neck rubs. Maybe I can coax her to love me more by having food ready while I hold her, she'd be the princess of the house. :rolleyes::D


My boyfriend made a good point, though. Shipping them may have scared them enough to be less trusting. I know I'd have a hard time trusting anyone if I were put in a cold dark box.

[ConcinusMan]

Oh heck, it's not all that bad. Being in a tight and dark space like they are during shipping, actually helps them feel safe, and calms them. They're not like us. I do not believe that one unpleasant experience stays with them forever. They've likely completely forgotten about the shipping. Even if they haven't, they wouldn't blame the hand. They would become less trusting if they associated the hand with unpleasant experience. It takes more than once for that association to take hold. I don't really handle my snakes very much but when I do, they usually get fed too, and so, they associate the hand with feeding time, a pleasant experience. So, in spite of not much handling, most of them don't mind it one bit but it took time to develop the trust.

However, they are in a new environment with new smells. That can change their behavior until they grow accustom to the new surroundings and begin to feel comfortable. There is always an oddball or two that just don't like interacting with people and you can't force them to like it, they can only learn to tolerate it better. Still, snap is a female. I'm betting that she will become much calmer and tolerate handling better when she gets some more size on her. Concinnus' do that. Once they are big enough so that they are no longer on so many creatures' menu, they tend to be more confident and less flighty/nervous. My biggest girl (over 3.2 feet now) isn't scared of anything. She acts like she owns the world and is entitled to respect. I left the top of the tank open on purpose and she came out to explore. My pomeranians were in the room and she was curious of them and came right up to them to investigate!

[mustang]

ya snap learned quick....checker wont or ever has bit or musked me but he pooped a few times on my hand and never comes to my hand when i try to pick him up out of his cage...but hes stopped sprinting to get away....if he does get away its slowly and quietly...when im on the phone and he see's a window of oportunity.iv had him for about a year and 5 months now...i wish hed come to my hand but i doubt he ever will.....i think he accepts that when i pick him up, he's caught. and he has to wait a while before going back into the cage...but since i got a bed warmer i put him on a sheet of cage carpet on my bed and put a pillow (that has allready been warmed by matress) and he'll stay there for a long long time (i think he goes to sleep since his head was on the carpet and and he didnt bolt up when i removed the pillow....he came up all sluggish like i woke him up.)

[kibakiba]

Yeah, right. If you saw then when the box opened you wouldn't saw it made them feel safe. Just sayin'. Snap is most likely that oddball, or maybe she doesn't like Runt. Her and Runt get skittish around each other and they just recently started acting like that and now Runt freaks out when she sees or smells food. She's going to be moved into her own tank so she can feel safe. Maybe everyone will act better.

Robert, I didn't know that snakes had legs and could sprint... Mama likes sleeping on my bed also, my bed isnt warm but my whole bedroom stays around 70-88 degrees.

[ConcinusMan]

When you opened the box, all of the sudden, there was light from complete darkness. That frightens any snake, in shipping container or not.:cool:

[kibakiba]

It looked like they were freaking out before that and my room wasn't bright, I had been sleeping then they arrived and opened the box in my room... which had the lights OFF.

[mustang]

Yeah, right. If you saw then when the box opened you wouldn't saw it made them feel safe. Just sayin'. Snap is most likely that oddball, or maybe she doesn't like Runt. Her and Runt get skittish around each other and they just recently started acting like that and now Runt freaks out when she sees or smells food. She's going to be moved into her own tank so she can feel safe. Maybe everyone will act better.

Robert, I didn't know that snakes had legs and could sprint... Mama likes sleeping on my bed also, my bed isnt warm but my whole bedroom stays around 70-88 degrees.
sprints, leaps , goes very fast in a short elapse of time, you know what i mean

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah, Amy (iowa albino) is all but blind. I think that all she sees is light/dark. Once, I was carrying him and walked into the kitchen which has bright overhead florescent light. He literally leaped out of my hand when we reached the light. That was long ago, but he just hates light.

If he's out and about (at night of course) in his tank and I flip on the overhead light, he leaps nearly straight up in the air. Pretty cool trick, being how he doesn't have legs. And when he lands, he gives his most impressive viper impression. Tramatizing for him, but so dang cool to see for me. I try not to do it to him but for some strange reason, when it does happen, seeing him leap and freak out always makes my day.:D

[kibakiba]

Lol, sounds like Snap when you wake her up. I simply touched her tail on accident when I was typing and she flew off my hand and onto my desk. Scared the poo out of me, it was unexpected and I thought she was going to hit the ground. Which could hurt her and it'd be a big risk if she did and moved because my chair wheel could easily smash her.

[mustang]

Yeah, Amy (iowa albino) is all but blind. I think that all she sees is light/dark. Once, I was carrying him and walked into the kitchen which has bright overhead florescent light. He literally leaped out of my hand when we reached the light. That was long ago, but he just hates light.

If he's out and about (at night of course) in his tank and I flip on the overhead light, he leaps nearly straight up in the air. Pretty cool trick, being how he doesn't have legs. And when he lands, he gives his most impressive viper impression. Tramatizing for him, but so dang cool to see for me. I try not to do it to him but for some strange reason, when it does happen, seeing him leap and freak out always makes my day.:D
parents love to screw with their kids

[kibakiba]

Not my mom. She likes to gross me out. Telling me about her friend who took her to a bar, kissing him and everything ... who she has "no" interest in. I really could care less what she does, I don't need to know about it. :rolleyes:

[ConcinusMan]

Lol, sounds like Snap when you wake her up. I simply touched her tail on accident when I was typing and she flew off my hand and onto my desk. Scared the poo out of me, it was unexpected and I thought she was going to hit the ground. Which could hurt her and it'd be a big risk if she did and moved because my chair wheel could easily smash her.

That kind of fall might stun a baby but don't worry. It usually doesn't result in injury. Small ones could easily take a fall of 6 feet, land smack on hard floor, and be fine. As for the chair, now that could be deadly.

[kibakiba]

Yeah, Tiny, when I first got him, isn't like my other northwesterns, he's extremely clumsy and doesn't "hang on" to me like the others. He's wrapped around my finger, sure but if he's just slithering around, if he gets to the edge, he just falls. Most of the time I'm really paying attention to him at all times to make sure that doesn't happen but if I look away once, he seems to be like a child and takes off. Needless to say, I looked away and he fell onto my leg and before I could grab him, he slithered off my leg and fell onto the floor. He's fine though, but he hasn't tried that stunt again.

[mustang]

mine blackmails me with embarrasing me in public

[ConcinusMan]

Tell me about it. I took my big 3.5 foot concinnus girl to petco yesterday. As I was showing her off to the clerk, she opened up and took a huge, smelly dump right there. I was so embarrassed.

[kibakiba]

Made more progress with Snap, she didn't even fuss much when I picked her up, she usually poops and musks all over me and acts like I'm killing her. She didn't freak out afterward either. She's hanging out and gets to watch Zombieland with her mom and dad for being so good. :D

[kibakiba]

ivD6LlKyeP4

Snakey wanted love, it was so cute that I had to get a video of it. He rarely does this but it sure is adorable when he does. :D

[guidofatherof5]

Very nice video Chantel
One of the reasons I love garter snakes is their curiosity in us and what we do. They look very comfortable with you.
Who was that on top of the camera?

[kibakiba]

That was Mama, she was sleeping on top of the camera, haha. I was holding her a little bit before Snakey came out out of the tank. After I grabbed the camera she moved onto it and started resting on it. Both her and Snakey have a fascination with cameras, any time one is near them they want to coil up on it.

[guidofatherof5]

How's Runt doing?

[kibakiba]

She's been less skittish and spending more time with Snap, who she used to avoid. I frequently find her and Snap coiled up with each other and she's started to eat again. She gets startled really easily still but as long as there's no sudden movements she's okay. She also doesn't like being handled too much, but since I know that she gets handled a bit less than the others. I only really pick her up if I'm checking her out and making sure everything is okay. Other than that, interaction is just feeding. She seems to be happier that way.

[guidofatherof5]

This may change for her as she matures. I think you are right by limiting her handling.
Keep up the good work.

[kibakiba]

I don't handle any of them too much. Crazy babies like Snap get held more often then not, but Snap really seems to enjoy it after being a drama queen for 10 minutes. :D All the others don't seem to mind it too much when I pick them up, but if they don't seem to want to be held, I leave them alone. Mama's the only one who doesn't fuss when I hold her a lot, but she's always been a good cuddly garter. She really loves lounging around on my shoulder, I think that's the only thing she ever does. ;)

[guidofatherof5]

Good for her and you.;)

[kibakiba]

Mama's such a tame cuddle bug. :D
She's watching Back to the future with me, she's happily sleeping in my hand and enjoying a neck rub. She;s been in my hand from the first movie, to now, half way through the second movie. I love how cuddly and sweet she is, none of my others would lay in my hand so calmly and watch movies with me.

[guidofatherof5]

Those special ones come into our lives. I have a number of adult radixes that are like that.
I do believe they enjoy the interaction.;)
Keep up the good work, Chantel.

[kibakiba]

Yeah, she seemed to enjoy it. When I had to move her she just looked up at me like "Hey! I was just getting comfortable!" then she pooped on me ;) That's one way I know when she's thanking me for the warm area. She did the same thing in my shirt a while back. It's always great to know that they really appreciate me keeping them warm.

[guidofatherof5]

Poop kisses:rolleyes::D

[kibakiba]

Tiny has a bit of a problem. He went opaque 4 days ago and left it 2 days ago. I was checking on all of them and I noticed his skin looked crinkly. Could he have retained his shed? He looks normal when he's straight, but if he bends it gets all crinkly. I got a picture of it and its a little bit hard to see, Tiny didn't appreciate me picking him up and checking him out.
http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/2903/sdc11270a.jpg (http://img716.imageshack.us/i/sdc11270a.jpg/)

[guidofatherof5]

Could be time for a shed box.
http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/husbandry/5014-cheap-shed-box.html

[kibakiba]

I tried something similar with Snap when she retained some shed on her neck. I don't have a 5 quart icecream container, but I have a popcorn bowl with a lid that I could use. Shortly after posting this I checked on Tiny in the middle of exercising and he got some of the shed off, but he's having trouble with it, so I'll go ahead and let him have some spa treatment ;)

[guidofatherof5]

Usually works like a charm.
Sometimes I have to run them under warm water and peel them if the shed box fails.

[kibakiba]

Yeah, so far it hasnt worked. He looks more crinkly, but Tiny is a lazy little one. He doesn't like me touching him to help him, but he doesn't seem to want to do anything himself. I checked on him just a minute ago and he was just coiled up under the cloth, which had gotten cool. I reheated it and put him in there again so hopefully he'll get it done, if not, time for me to help him. He'll probably struggle a lot.

[kibakiba]

Tiny ended up needing assistance, at first he was struggling and didn't like me helping,but the shed was stuck on his head. After a few warm soaks, he eased up and seemed to enjoy the help. He's relaxing in my palm now and his shed is all gone. :D
He might have some stuck on his eye but iI think I got it off

[guidofatherof5]

Do you see both eye caps in the old shed?

[kibakiba]

It came off in pieces and I know one eye came off separate from the heads part of the shed. I think part of the shed fell off my desk, I cant find all of it. Is there any way to tell other than looking at the shed? I know at first the reason I caught that it didnt come off of his eye is because it had a white ring around it. I don't see that now, and I gently tried peeling it off, but he's so tiny that I couldn't get ahold of it so i got my finger damp and let him rub his face against my finger. After that he stopped trying to rub his face against things and I no longer saw the white ring.

[guidofatherof5]

A warm damp cotton towel can be rubbed over the eye but it sounds like it might be off already.

[kibakiba]

He's gone to bed right now, all of them seem to hide around 9 pm, like they know its their bed time. I'll check on him tomorrow and rub a warm damp cloth on him softly just to make sure that it is off, I wouldn't want anything bad to happen to him. Better safe than sorry. :D

[ConcinusMan]

That's good news. You caught it time to get it off. Little snakes are great risk of death if they retain a shed too long. Lost a baby radix like that, and I nearly lost pingping to a retained shed although he died from unknown causes a while later.

[guidofatherof5]

He's gone to bed right now, all of them seem to hide around 9 pm, like they know its their bed time. I'll check on him tomorrow and rub a warm damp cloth on him softly just to make sure that it is off, I wouldn't want anything bad to happen to him. Better safe than sorry. :D

Your's are better trained than my:D Mine never want to go to bed. Turning out the lights mean more time to be out of the hides.
After lights out I do a couple security checks, I usually find most of my snakes out cruising(plotting).

[kibakiba]

Yeah, mine just know around 9 is when their dad gets home, and if its movie night one of them gets taken out to watch a movie. None of them like the scary movies we watch :rolleyes: Mama's the only one who doesn't fuss when I'm watching a movie, as long as I don't wake her up. Snap, if I have her with me, will tell me when she wants to be put back. She'll be all calm, curled up in my hand... Then she unleashes a big smelly load of poo on me. I love her so much... :rolleyes:

[guidofatherof5]

Then she unleashes a big smelly load of poo on me. I love her so much... :rolleyes:

That is true snake love:D

[kibakiba]

I spent a bit of time with my loves and had Mama laying on my bed with me when my back pain was acting up. She seemed to enjoy sleeping and relaxing on my blanket and getting nice long neck rubs. I want to get a blanket to cut in pieces for her so she can feel like she's living "the life" all the time, instead of only when she's on my bed. I'd probably have to replace it every day, though, because she loves having soft, pretty surfaces to smear her poopy behind on. :rolleyes:
After I put Mama back I went over to look at my babies and Snap was sleeping soundly under the lamp and looked up briefly before going back to bed... She usually doesn't like my big scary face staring at her... ;) Ember got all excited to see me and was rubbing his nose all over the glass. When I put my hand in the tank he was excitedly slithering all over my hand and through my fingers. It was such a cute sight, I wish I could have gotten it on video. Runt let me rub her neck for a little while while she was resting under her log, this almost never happens, as Runt is extremely skittish. Tiny was tucked away in her tree hole sleeping...

I must have done something right yesterday at feeding time to have such calm babies. They're usually skittish and begging for food, or wont let me touch them if I don't have a treat for them. They are such silly little snakies. :D

[guidofatherof5]

It sounds to me like someone is spoiling their snakes.
Keep up the good work:D

[kibakiba]

-sighs-... Yes, I am guilty of spoiling them. I can't help it though, they are like my only friends that I can hang around with in real life. Ember and Snap are especially spoiled. Snap will only poop if I'm holding her, so I hold her a lot just so she can have the "honor" of pooping where she likes... And Ember really loves his pinky parts and worms, so meal time for him consists of a little fish, worms and pinky.

I want to spoil Tiny more, but he's a garbage gut kind of like your radixes, Steve. ;) He takes anything now, it used to have to be salmon scented, but he's taken pinky parts, fish, worm and a slug, eating all of it as if it were his favorite and looking for more.

On that note, I accidentally left the food dish in the adults tank and Mama is constantly looking at me, then at the food dish. She even coiled up in the dish and kept watching me. She ate a pinky and all of the left overs a couple days ago and is still super fat... I need to change her name to Miss Piggy.

[kibakiba]

I was giving the snakes some food today and... well lets just say it feels like my finger will fall off. I really enjoy interacted with them on a more personal level, feeding them by hand and letting them slither on me and wipe their dirty faces on me... But, both Ember and Snap are getting so big (Ember is about 13-14 inches and Snap is about 10-11 inches) that when they miss the food and bite me, they've been piercing the skin. I haven't really had an allergic reaction from them, yet. But after them I was giving Mama and Snakey a little snack to hold them off while they are in shed and decided to feed them by hand, too. I do this every few feedings so they stay used to my hand being in the tank and they appreciate how hard I work for them ;) Snakey got me a few times, but none of them broke the skin, and I was very cautious with Mama because she gets in a frenzy when she's got food near her. I understand the risks of feeding them with my hands and being allergic to their saliva, but honestly, it seems like the pain is worth the relationship I get from it and having them trust me more. It's only after they bite me and my fingers start turning red, swelling up and stinging as if a bunch of hot needles were pressed in my skin, that I almost regret feeding them like that. Mama bit me hard, it made me bleed and there are teeth marks in my fingers. I know she didn't mean to bite, but it sure did startle my boyfriend and my mom because it actually made me scream, I almost never make a peep if I get bit or scared other than saying "ow".

You'd think I would have learned not to feed them like that after the first few bitings... But I'd go an do it again once the swelling and pain dies down. :D

[guidofatherof5]

I know she didn't mean to bite

Yes she did. She just didn't think she was going to getting a mouth full of human:D

[ConcinusMan]

They really don't mean to bite you but are reluctant to let go once they get in a feeding frenzy. Like Steve said, they didn't know they were biting you. They thought they were biting prey (food) They'll bite anything that smells like food. They'll even try to bite glass walls and of course, each other.

I've never had much of a reaction from concinnus bites other than a little itching, and that's when a full grown adult draws blood and chews and drools in the wound. Any time a snake pierces the skin, it's good to let it bleed a little, or even squeeze to force a little bleeding. That helps to get the saliva out of the wound. No matter what kind of snake breaks the skin, you should disinfect as soon as possible. Peroxide or rubbing alcohol is advised. Never leave any snake bite untreated.

If disinfectants are not available, flushing the wound thoroughly with warm water or salt water is better than nothing. If any pain and/or swelling is present, it's usually caused by enzymes in their saliva, or simply from bacteria in their mouths. Flushing or disinfecting helps remove both of those causes of discomfort.

BTW Steve, I found the other hemostats I had stashed in my bathroom cabinet first aid kit. I noticed that the last 1 inch of them are exactly the same as the pliers I was using! One big difference though: the metal they're made of. No rust with hemostats.

Chantel, I would highly recommend that you "tong" feed the babies with a pair of hemostats from here on out. They're getting big and since you have a bad reaction, it's best that you avoid getting bit. It doesn't build trust with the snakes since they don't even realize what they are biting. They just know it can't be swallowed and eventually let go. Could be bad for their oral health too such as broken or missing teeth, and really bad for you if one of those little teeth break off in your wound.

It would only take a few stamps to send you a pair of hemostats. I have 3 pair. I don't need all of them. Will you use them if I send them? You just use them like pliers to hold the food. Once they bite, you just let go.

If you will use them, they will be in the mail tomorrow. Let me know and I will pay Steve's kindness forward to you. That will still leave me a pair for my snakes, and pair for my first aid kit.

[kibakiba]

No, thank you Richard. Steve offered me some last night. I think one pair would be enough for my 7 little pigs. :D

As for dis infecting, I know what to do and I do it. The reaction isn't as bad as it used to be, or I don't notice it as much. When I first got bit, it was only a small area on my thumb that had gotten bit but my whole hand turned purple and swelled up... 10 bites later, I've only gotten bit on my fingers, but instead of my whole hand swelling up, it tends to just be that finger. This time it stayed around the bite area.

I just hope the babies won't be afraid. I've used tweezers with them and they wouldn't have it. It scared them, Runt didn't seem to mind too much but Ember and Snap wouldn't go near them. Tiny saw them and musked all over as he fled behind a log.

They'd be good for Mama and Snakey, when I have a pinky with the tweezers they try to get my fingers instead. There's only about an inch and a half between me and the pinky. Luckily I haven't been bitten that way but there has been some close calls.


Also, I didn't mean that letting them bite me builds their trust, but since I started hand feeding them, all of them welcome my hand in the tank now, instead of staying away completely. All of them will come up to my hand and if I don't move it they'll even coil up on me. The only one who won't allow me to lift her up out of the tank after crawling on me is... Snap. If I do anyways, well I get a hand full of poop on it ;)

[ConcinusMan]

Hmm... you just must have got some oddball babies there. All the rest of the litters readily take food from the hemostats. Always have. It doesn't scare them at all. In fact, some of little boogers use them to climb up when I'm trying to feed them. Your two were always fed this way before I shipped them.

[kibakiba]

It might just be because they look different than what yours look like. They are probably a lot thinner than yours were and probably smelt different. I clean them after every feeding with soap and water and a little bit of alcohol and rinse them before and after feeding. They definitely didn't like them the first 2 weeks I had them. After a while I gave up on feeding them with the tweezers because they just took it from my fingers so much better.

[ConcinusMan]

Hemostats are hemostats. They all look the same. I used a pair of craft pliers that have the same exact tip as hemostats and then switched to actual hemostats. They didn't react any different, but I don't want to argue.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b9/Hemostats.jpg

[kibakiba]

I'm not trying to argue, I'm just saying what I thought might have been the reason that they didn't like my tweezers when feeding them. Either way, less bites is a good plus for me, I just hope that they won't be scared of it.

[ConcinusMan]

If they really are freaked out by them it will probably just take a few successful tries for them to get the clue that the hemostats are just part of feeding time. I have to fight them off of them. When I'm trying to feed one, the others are climbing up the hemostats. Annoys the heck out of me.:p

[kibakiba]

Indeed. I don't plan on giving up this time with them since I think it would be less of a hassle doing art and typing without bite marks in the finger that I use the most. Snap will probably take anything from anything, she goes wild if she even smells me bring the fish into my room. It's almost as if she's doing tricks for food. :rolleyes:

[ConcinusMan]

I was feeding Flicker a slug today and those concinnus babies are so darn fiesty, they just see another snake eating and they charge and try to steal it. They don't even like slugs but hey, the other snake had it, so they try to steal it.

[kibakiba]

Sounds like snap. She see's tiny eating pinky parts and then steals a piece and spits it out. She see's runt eating some worms and wants some, I give her some and she spits that out too.

[flickerfriend]

I was feeding Flicker a slug today and those concinnus babies are so darn fiesty, they just see another snake eating and they charge and try to steal it. They don't even like slugs but hey, the other snake had it, so they try to steal it.
Hey! those lil' babies! stealin' my friend flickers food!

[ConcinusMan]

Nope. He's too smart for them. He knows what they're up to and he always gets away. He's eating pinkies now by the way. That should fatten him up. I think i'll only brumate him for 6-8 weeks with my red stripe girl, then I'll bring them both out. He was pretty thin is why I didn't brumate him right away. I've been feeding him 3-4 big slugs every single day, and more recently, he's been taking pinkies. He's gaining weight now.

[kibakiba]

Here's the difference between Tiny and Squirt. I don't know if you can tell in this picture, but Squirts stripe is only 1 scale wide while Tiny's is 2 scales wide. When you see them in person it's easy to tell which is which because Tiny does have a noticeably larger stripe.

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/281/tinyandsquirt.jpg

[guidofatherof5]

Both are fine looking snakes.
They look healthy and happy.

[kibakiba]

Indeed. Tiny was very active in his picture and wouldn't stop moving. Squirt is still shy but maybe that will change now that he's in with the crowd. They were very welcoming to him and he seemed extremely happy to be in a larger, more decorated tank. It's almost as if him and Tiny love each other. They were sharing the tree earlier today. Looking at Squirt and at Tiny makes it seem like Squirt is definitely a male, his tail doesn't immediately taper and Tinys does. So maybe Tiny is really a girl.
Tiny acts more like a female(in my opinion) does because she's calm and enjoys attention, or at least tolerates it when she doesn't want it. Squirt on the other hand doesn't like being touched and is a bit jumpy. Today when I was going to be introducing him to the "big babies" he pooped and started biting me multiple times. Maybe in time he'll calm down. He could just be like Runt, who was the most skittish snake I had ever seen, but after leaving her alone for a month, she willingly comes up to my hand.


And later tonight, maybe tomorrow, I have a feeding video! I was feeding all my snakes today and I moved them all to Squirts old tank for feeding and put my webcam on it. I have to edit it into two parts, though. I thought I was pretty fast at feeding them but apparently it took 30 minutes. ;) I did feed them faster, though, with the hemostats. Sometimes feeding time is around an hour... Give or take a little while. :D

[kibakiba]

Snakey Started shedding shortly after feeding him and it was coming off in shreds and he had both eyecaps stuck on him. I was going to leave him to do it himself and get the eyecaps off when he was done, but he seemed to have given up. He was all coiled up under his hide. Anyway, I grabbed a warm damp cloth and rubbed it softly on his face and got the caps off and then I misted him a bit with warm water and put my fingers around the area he stopped shedding around and let him work himself out. At first he really didn't like the help, but after it started coming off in one piece he started to move faster and after the last bit came off he came into my hand and curled up a bit with his head facing me and his cute little tongue flicking as if he was thanking me. So cute. Here's a picture of his new vibrant orange and the shed that I got off of him.

http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/2351/snakeyhelp.jpg

[guidofatherof5]

Sharp. Very sharp.

[gregmonsta]

Gorgeous ;)

[ConcinusMan]

Handsome snakes.:D

[kibakiba]

Why, thank you.

[kibakiba]

Mama retained her shed. She looked half dead when I checked on her and she was all wrinkly. I helped her get it off, she didn't seem to appreciate it until it was 3/4 of the way off. When I was checking on her, she was laying limp in the tank, so I took the lid off, she didn't move, flick her tongue or look up at me like she usually does. This was when I realized she was wrinkly. Anyways, I used a wet paper towel and softly rubbed it against her nose to get the shed going and I was misting her with warm water. She started coming to life the more the shed came off. I just realized now that I could have used a warm washcloth and put that in a container and stuck her in there to help with humidity, but I panicked when she was all limp. I thought she was dead. She's perfectly fine now, though. Sleeping away with Snakey. :D

[guidofatherof5]

Mama retained her shed. She looked half dead when I checked on her and she was all wrinkly. I helped her get it off, she didn't seem to appreciate it until it was 3/4 of the way off. When I was checking on her, she was laying limp in the tank, so I took the lid off, she didn't move, flick her tongue or look up at me like she usually does. This was when I realized she was wrinkly. Anyways, I used a wet paper towel and softly rubbed it against her nose to get the shed going and I was misting her with warm water. She started coming to life the more the shed came off. I just realized now that I could have used a warm washcloth and put that in a container and stuck her in there to help with humidity, but I panicked when she was all limp. I thought she was dead. She's perfectly fine now, though. Sleeping away with Snakey. :D

They suffocate because they can't take a breath.
Nice save.;)

[gregmonsta]

Well done ;)

[kibakiba]

Thank you. :) Mama seems really happy to have that shed off. She's been slithering around everywhere as if she had a few too many coffees. ;)

I had another snake shed today, Ember! He's shed about 5 times since I got him. :D

[kibakiba]

Snap and Squirt are opaque now. This will be Snap's 4th shed and Squirt's first. I'm excited to see how lovely they'll look with the sheds off. I've been misting my room and their tanks a lot to help with the humidity.


Mama learned a new "trick". It's called "go-to-the-top-of-the-tank-to-beg-for-food-with-mouth-open." After I had fed the babies their holiday dinner, I decided to give the left overs to Mama and Snakey. Right when I picked up the dish and hemostats, Mama came up to the top of the tank with her mouth open and sat there... At first I was a little worried about her and went to pick her up to see what was wrong with her and she bit at me, then went back to the "give food!" position. I dropped a piece of worm in her mouth and she swallowed it and opened her mouth again, more food goes in and she opens her mouth again after swallowing. It was so funny watching her follow the hemostats with her mouth open when I was trying to give Snakey some, who also started doing that. They might have seen Runt do it, she does that if the food is near her but she's too lazy to grab it. I wish I got it on camera. :D

[gregmonsta]

Lol ;) nothing wrong with eager feeders.

[ConcinusMan]

That's cute. All my little ones do that too. I can't go anywhere near the tank without them all rushing out with their heads in the air. "oh food! gimmie food!"

[kibakiba]

My mom said they look like baby birds doing that, and in a sense, they do. When I'm changing the water in the baby's tank they all come up to my hand, avidly searching for food. I made the mistake of eating my dinner (salmon) in my room while I was backing up my computer and then changed the water... Snap bit me 10 times. :rolleyes: I have little swollen lumps all over my finger and a little near my palm. The others looked like they were going to ambush me, but they quickly hid after I pushed snap away and after the 10th bite I grabbed her and put her in "time out"... The feeding tank, just to keep her from biting me even more. She hung onto me like our dog does to her favorite toys, you can lift her up and she wouldn't even care.She had a pretty tight grip on me and definitely wanted some food, even though she still has a bulge... That fat woman... ;)

[kibakiba]

Snap shed perfectly from head to tail, poor little Squirt retained his though. He retained it half way through. I've been trying to help him get it off but it's really stuck on there. I've tried using a paper towel with warm water on it, a warm damp washcloth, tweezers and my fingers. The tweezers have worked the best so far, but he doesn't like being touched or soaked in water. He also didn't seem to like being in a humid and warm hide. I feel bad for him, and it seems odd that my northwesterns have been retaining their sheds, but my concinnus have been fine. I try to keep the humidity in my room as high as possible since I have the mini heater running a lot of the time. I mist my room as often as I can, I'm sensitive to low humidity also, it causes nosebleeds.
Mama has also been very energetic and restless seeming. It's odd for her to move around very much, she's kinda like me. She likes to relax and sleep a lot. I figured maybe she just has a lot more energy because she ate 2 pinkies and 3 worms on christmas day, but she's eaten it before and was never that active. Maybe she wants to try my new DVD with me... Rachel Brice: Serpentine Belly Dance. :D

[guidofatherof5]

You could put Squirt in a shed box for a few hours then run warm water at the point of the stuck shed. I've had a few radixes with the same problem. It happens every once in awhile.
Fast moving warm water usually will start the old shed coming off. Then just work it down the body.
Squirt may not like some of this but this must be one of the times your the boss.
He can be in charge the rest of the time:D

[ConcinusMan]

The longer it stays on, the harder it's going to be to get it off.;)

[kibakiba]

The more I do to try to get it off, the more he bites me. I don't like stressing him out at all and I don't like him biting because his teeth could break. I'm not affected by his bites as badly as I am since he's so tiny, but after a few bites in the same place it does start to swell a little and sting. I'll try using the shed box again. Hopefully I can get the rest off. It's near his cloaca now, so at least I made a little progress after 4 hours.

[ConcinusMan]

I know, it's a PITA but it must come off. A little baby oil, mineral oil, or even cooking oil might help. It tends to get under the old skin and help separate it from the new skin. If you can only get it started, completely around his girth, then maybe he can finish it.

[kibakiba]

Yeah, I know. I had him in the shed box for about 30 minutes and managed to get it to below the cloaca... But now he's fussing even more. He squirted musk and poop in my face, too. I think that's when you know he's *really* upset. Luckily it's almost oover and hopefully I won't get a poop mask again. ;)

[guidofatherof5]

He squirted musk and poop in my face, too. I think that's when you know he's *really* upset. Luckily it's almost oover and hopefully I won't get a poop mask again. ;)

It looks like the final initiation is done.:D

He loves you.:D

[EasternGirl]

Chantel...I love reading your posts! It is a journal of the lives of snakes. How many do you have?

Selena was having trouble getting her shed off last night and it was freaking her out. She didn't like it...but I picked her up and dropped her in her water dish. Right after that, the rest came off...and she seemed very happy. She was all playful like.."I'm free! I'm free!"...lol.

I really want to get another garter but I don't know if you can buy them anywhere. Does anyone know? Otherwise, I guess I will just have to wait until the Spring...I will get babies in my basement.

[ConcinusMan]

They're right under your nose. Check the forum For sale/adoption/wanted section (I have a couple available) or...

Home Page (http://www.donsgartersnakes.net)

Scott Felzer's Garter Snakes, specializing in aberrant garters (http://www.albinogartersnake.com/)

With the cold weather in much of the country there's not much shipping going on. I have snakes waiting to ship out, and snakes waiting to ship to me but it's just too cold to chance it right now. Receiving snakesicles just isn't as much fun as getting live snakes. I hate winter!

BTW Don, why don't you edit your site so it says something besides "home page" :confused:

[EasternGirl]

Thanks...yeah, I was wondering how I would get one shipped to me in the cold. I really don't want any snakesicles!

[ConcinusMan]

In the summer heat and overnight shipping, I've used styrofoam insulated boxes with a instant cold pack wrapped in newspaper. They get a bit cold at first but when you open the box, even after being in the heat, it's cool inside even 24 hours later. However, it's better to be too cool than cooked. I've shipped in extreme heat without a problem, it's all in how you pack them. The cold packs work by absorbing heat and so, they don't get too cold, and if insulated from the heat, they last the entire trip. How long the pack lasts depends on how much heat it must absorb.

Thing is, in the winter, sometimes there's transit delays due to snow and ice, and that can kill them if they're stuck somewhere below freezing. You can put a warm gel pack in the insultated box with them, but you can't make it too hot. They work the opposite of cold packs. Heat is constantly escaping a warm pack and so, it doesn't last long. And like I said, if there's a delay... disaster.

Still, if you have the money, you could buy now before that desired snake is spoken for, and just wait until it's safe to ship. Also, some breeders use shipping methods that are quite expensive, but safe delivery is ensured (and insured) in almost any weather.

[EasternGirl]

I think I'll wait til spring and see if there are any in my basement that need a rescue...if not, I can buy one then. I would love to have one of those blue ones...not sure what the name is...they are beautiful!

[kibakiba]

Hey Marnie. :) I have 7 garters. 5 northwesterns and 2 red spots. They've really grown on me and if I had the money, space and time I'd have a lot more. When you have more than one in a tank and you watch them for a while they may start doing silly things. I've watched my snakes while working on some art and my baby northwestern, Tiny, was very determined to climb up a stick in there... She'd make it about half way, then slide right off. She tried about 10 times and when she actually got to the top, she fell into the water dish and hid. It makes me laugh every time she does that. The other snakes have better balance and know to hang on to the branch, she doesn't. My mom calls her the special ed snake... It kind of fits her, but I wouldn't have her any other way. :D

[ConcinusMan]

There's more than one species/morph of garter snake that can be called "blue". Do you mean my blue anerythristic oregon red spotted garters like my avatar, or do you mean a puget sound garter? (They are both very similar anyway, both are subspecies of T. sirtalis)

Puget:
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1180/1317752498_403be27823_z.jpg

Blue anery red spot:
http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/272/dscn0606large.jpg

[EasternGirl]

Yeah...Selena does some pretty funny things. She gets all geared up for her great escape....she'll lift her whole body up like she is standing, and tries to get up under the ledge to the lid of her enclosure...but then she will fall over like a tower toppling over sideways...it is hysterical. She also makes the cutest little burrows all over her substrate. We have burrows like that all over our yard...our yard has tons of garters. Selena was trapped in a spider web in our basement...that is how she came to be my pet. I am hoping to get some more babies in our basement in the spring and then maybe Selena will have some friends.

I just think garters are the cutest things...with their little heads and faces!

I should be feeding her in a separate tank? (I just read that). Oops...I'm not sure how she will handle that....she just started eating without being scared. She gets pretty freaked out when I put her in another tank to clean the one she is in.

I think she is a very gentle snake. She has never bit me or tried to bite me. She lets me pet her to wake her up....she is still afraid when I try to hold her...but she has never once been aggressive toward me.

How long do you leave light on for your snakes? Do you have night lamps for them?

[EasternGirl]

@ConcinnusMan...

Wow...they are all beautiful! The blue ones...to what area are they native? Both are gorgeous!