Meet the gang!

[kibakiba]

Pugets are native to Washington and Redspots are native to Oregon. Richard has some pretty nice red spots. ;)
I don't feed them in a separate tank unless there's a little frenzy going on. It also minimizes the risk of them swallowing their substrate, but I don't have a problem with that personally because of the small chunks I feed them with the hemostats.
I leave my basking lamps on for as long as I'm awake for. When I get up I turn off the night time lamps and turn on the basking lamps. When I go to bed I turn off the basking lamps and turn on the night time lamps. I use flukers nightglo lights for night time, only at 25 watts. It puts out a little bit of heat and doesn't have any visible light emitting from it. I've tried a few different types of night time lights and these seem to work the best at letting the snakes sleep and also not bug them at night. I find them sleeping under the area it's at if I wake up in the middle of the night or cant sleep.

[EasternGirl]

Now see...the stupid people at the pet store I go to told me that they don't make night lamps at a 25 wattage. (I'm not saying anything about people who work at pet stores in general, just the idiots I'm dealing with at this particular store). These people tell me a different thing everyday. First they told me not to use anything above 25 watts and that they would be getting some in, then when I went back they told me they don't make them in 25 watt. Of course, they also told me to feed Selena crickets...then they told me to get the crickets out of her cage because they might attack her! Where did you get your night bulb? I do have a 25 watt basking bulb...but my night bulb is 40 watts and I've been afraid to use it.

I put Selena's food on a little dish for her....cut up pinkies or worms...but she drags them to her hide...do you think I should be concerned that she will ingest the substrate?

I had no idea there were so many types of garters! They are all so beautiful...and very different. I especially like the blue ones.

Thanks for all of your help, Chantel!

[kibakiba]

If you have a Bridges Pets in your area, that's where I get my lamps. As long as Selena as a place to get out of the heat I'm sure a 40 watt bulb wouldn't hurt her.
I'd be a little worried about her getting some substrate in her mouth if the pieces are big enough to touch the substrate while shes dragging it. It also depends on the type you have. Aspen clings to food a lot more than carefresh or paper towels.
I also adore blue garter snakes, sky blue is my favorite colour. :D

[ConcinusMan]

Here you go. Range maps. T.s. concinnus is the Oregon Red Spotted Garter. (#1)T.s. pickeringii is the Puget Sound garter. (#2) Let me clarify that the blue one's I have are a mutation. They are not the normal form, whereas the blue Puget sound garters are considered normal.

http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/955/sirtalis1.jpg
http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/3272/sirtalis2.jpg

This is what a typical oregon red spotted garter would look like. They aren't blue. In fact, most aren't red either. They're orange. Mine are only blue and without red(orange) because they are mutants.:eek: like albinos are mutants.

http://www.californiaherps.com/noncal/northwest/nwsnakes/images/tsconcinnusbcor.jpg

Oh, and pet store workers aren't the one's to talk to about reptiles or any other animals really. They are just cashiers for the most part. Not usually knowledgeable about the animals and their care.

Maybe you would like to read up on them. Here's some links:

Common Garter Snake - Caresheets (http://www.thamnophis.com/caresheets/index.php?title=Common_Garter_Snake)

Red Spotted Garter Snake - Caresheets (http://www.thamnophis.com/caresheets/index.php?title=Red_Spotted_Garter_Snake)

Read this one thoroughly and forget about what the pet store tells you about their care: Garter Snake Care Sheet - Caresheets (http://www.thamnophis.com/caresheets/index.php?title=Garter_Snake_Care_Sheet)

[EasternGirl]

Thanks for all the help! Both of you! @ConcinnusMan... I thought that maybe this particular pet store had some knowledge because they have a guy who is a "reptile manager" who owns snakes. I soon learned that he doesn't really know anything...and many people do not know about garters. I am so glad I found this forum! I don't think Selena would have made it if it hadn't been for the help on here!

@Chantel...I have the aspen substrate. Maybe I should try to put her in another enclosure to feed her. Hopefully, it won't upset her to much. I don't want to change her bedding because she really seems to like burrowing in it. Do you know if there are any online stores in which to buy 25 watt night bulbs? Purple is my favorite color...but I don't think they have purple garters...lol.

[EasternGirl]

I'm still not sure if I am feeding her enough. I think she is looking for food. She ate half a worm day before yesterday, and a very small pinkie yesterday. Should I offer her more? How much and how often should I feed her?

I'm going to take a pic of her enclosure and post it later so that you guys can tell me if you think it looks adequate. I am so attached to this snake now...I worry that I am not giving her what she needs!

[ConcinusMan]

Pinkies are dense and nutritious, and usually take a couple of days to fully digest. Besides, snakes can go days or even weeks without eating and not suffer or lose weight, so don't worry yourself too much.

You can offer worms as often as you like but a pinkie or two goes a long way and and a garter that isn't a very small baby can easily get by on two feedings per week without the worms. Your snake is eating, and fairly often, so that's good. No need to worry too much. People often ask how much and how often they should feed their snakes but that really depends on what they are eating, their age, the temperature, etc. and snakes have great capacity for fasting and so a heavy bodied snake that doesn't eat for weeks is nothing to get overly concerned about.

To avoid swallowing of substrate, I tong feed and if the food item is big, I hold onto it until it's half swallowed before letting go. This cuts down on the food contacting the substrate. Tong feeding can be done with a pair of hemostats or a long pair of needlenose pliers or similar tool. Just hold the food in front of their face until they smell it and bite. After a while of doing that, the snakes will get used to your hand (and the tool) and come to think of them as a source of food. When my snakes see my hand, now they come rushing out toward it instead of shying away.;)

Here's a video where I am tong feeding baby T.s. concinnus' (oregon red spotted) Northwestern garters, and a plains garter or two.

WuE4lrgOR_4

[EasternGirl]

I tried offering Selena food on tweezers and she just got really freaked out. Today, I put her in a separate enclosure without substrate, and she ate her worms with no problem in there. I will try to feed her with tweezers or tongs again. I guess I will just offer her pinkies a couple of times a week, and offer her worms on the other days.

[ConcinusMan]

Keep trying. It takes time for them to get used to it. Now my snakes don't even hesitate. As soon as they hear the top slide open, they come out of hiding. They follow the tongs relentlessly. They know now that's where the food is.

Your feeding plan sounds perfect.

[kibakiba]

I don't know of any online stores that carry them, but I'll go ahead and search around for you, hopefully I can find something that you can use. If not, I'm sure Selena will be okay without it. Also, I use carefresh bedding, it's recycled news paper and my snakes burrow in it all the time. It's really easy to clean, and their little tunnels that they've dug stay there. It doesn't stick to food as easily as aspen does, and it falls off when it gets to their mouth.

[EasternGirl]

Thanks for looking for a bulb for me. I did order that lamp stand that allows you to situate the lamps up above the tank...maybe with that, the 40 watt will be fine.

I have heard about the carefresh...I will look for it next time I'm at the pet store.

[kibakiba]

Awesome, I checked a couple pet stores that ship stuff but so far have only found basking bulbs.
Carefresh is pretty cheap. I got 15 gallons I believe for about 20 dollars, it was a really huge bag of it. It's lasted me about 4 months and I still have a quarter of it left. :D

[EasternGirl]

Cool...yeah, I looked online too and only found 50 watt and up in the night bulbs.

[kibakiba]

If I had the money I'd do ahead and buy one for you and ship it. I don't know why I cant seem to find any for you online.

[EasternGirl]

Yeah...that's weird..usually you can find anything online....it's always when you're looking for something in particular, that no one has it. If you are comfortable with it, you can give me your address...tell me how much the bulbs are...I'll send the money first and some money for shipping. Are they expensive?

[kibakiba]

Bulbs are about 7.50-15 dollars but a 25 watt one is on the lower level price since it's low wattage. You don't have to pay for it, we're getting money in a couple days. You could think of it as a late Christmas present. :)

[EasternGirl]

You are too sweet, Chantel. I am having the worst time finding a better enclosure for Selena. She is on an escape kick. The enclosure I have her in now is a plastic breeding tub. I want to get a 20 gallon tank with a slide lid so that she can't escape. Everyone tells me that I can just put clips and heavy objects on the regular tank lids and she won't be able to escape...Selena is a houdini! She could escape with a normal lid, I know it. She now jumps when I open her enclosure...and she has almost gotten out a couple of times. The pet store I go to charges separately for tanks and lids and they only have slide lids for 50-100 gallon tanks. I may have found what I am looking for on Craig's List...but I'm not sure yet. Any suggestions?

I will send you a private message with my address...please let me know if I can send some money, at least for shipping, for the bulb.

[kibakiba]

I use Zilla brand reptile enclosures. They're somewhat expensive, but they are high quality and they have a slide top with mesh. Here's a link to petsmart, they carry them. They come with the tops and it has a latch on the top to prevent them from escaping. When Mama or Snakey want attention they'll try to wedge their heads between it and they try pretty hard to get out sometimes, but they haven't. The only exception to that is Tiny, the 4th day we had her she got herself damp and crawled to the top and got herself stuck between the lid and the tank. She was smaller than my pinky, though. Zilla Critter Cages - Terrariums - Habitats & Accessories - PetSmart (http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=4070848&lmdn=Habitats+%26amp%3B+Accessories)
I think the ones online are 30-60 gallons, but around here they do have 20 gallon ones always in stock at the stores. Hopefully this can help you a bit. Garters are masters of escaping.

The bulb shouldn't cost that much to buy or ship. I don't think it'd be over 15 dollars. Even my mom said that it's just a friendly gesture towards another garter keeper. Lots of us are willing to help people with getting things they need, whether it be links or actually sending things. I'm more than happy to help, it gives me a good feeling knowing that I did something for someone.

[EasternGirl]

Well, you and your mom are both very sweet people. Thank you for the link and the address and number for Petsmart. I know Selena will find a way to get out of something, if there is a way!

Odd question...are there any picks in the gallery of snakes being born? Or videos? I would love to see that!

[kibakiba]

There should be, you could go on youtube and find Steve's channel (thamnophis14) I know he has a couple videos. It is very interesting to see, isn't it?

[ConcinusMan]

Well Marnie, for a basking bulb, nothing special or expensive is needed. I use 60 watt household flood lamps. (But I also use a full spectrum florescent with it, and those aren't cheap) I get the flood lamps for basking, at dollar tree for a buck. No need to pay $12-$15 for a reptile basking bulb.

The wattage needed depends on your setup. The idea is to have one end of the enclosure be the "sunny" spot, around 85-90 degrees underneath it as long as you can accomplish that while still keeping the cool end in the 70's and keeping your snakes from getting too close to the heat bulb. 60-70 degrees at night is fine. I recommend using a fixture with a dome, and a ceramic socket with your heat bulb but the bulb itself need not be anything special.

This is how I do that:

S5tY5tGRvDI

[EasternGirl]

What a nice enclosure you have...and all of those beautiful snakes! Hopefully, I will have an ideal set-up soon. Chantel told me where to find a nice terrarium tank with a slide lid so that Selena Houdini won't get out. She is also sending me a 25 watt night bulb since they don't have any around here. I have a dome lamp and I ordered a stand for it. I also ordered the seedling heating pad. I am going to buy some Carefresh substrate because the aspen I have is getting in Selena's food. When I have it all set up, I'll take a pic and show you. Thanks so much for the video!

[ConcinusMan]

I was browsing on craigslist today and found 2 tanks. 20 gallon long, (like the one in my video) screen tops, perfect condition. They are asking $15 for one or $25 for both.

[EasternGirl]

I looked on craig's list here and they didn't have anything...well, one person had a 20 gallon for $30...I'm waiting to hear back from him.

[ConcinusMan]

I look there every day. Every now and then, a great deal on tanks, lights, or something useful comes up. I hear about people paying up to $150 at a pet store for a setup like that one. ^^^

I spent around $40 (for everything you see) by being patient and checking craigslist every day, buying plants and light bulbs at the dollar store, and only buying substrate online when I find a really good deal.

[kibakiba]

Today Snap was acting a little weird. I was checking on them all and Snap was slithering around slowly and laying against the glass and when I put my face up to the glass to see her she looked at me. Something about the way she was looking at me looked sad. I couldn't see anything visibly wrong with her, so I went to pick her up and she was completely calm... After I picked her up she seemed to perk up a bit. She was being such a sweetie. She sat in my hands for 30 minutes and let me rub her neck. After I looked her over and gave her some love she seemed perfectly fine. I'm thinking she was a little lonely, I rarely hold her any more other than to feed her or clean the tank. I'm glad I got to spend some time with her without being pooped on and struck at.

[guidofatherof5]

Nice to hear. When they trust it is a special thing.
You know they really trust you when they don't react to having raspberries blown on them:D

[kibakiba]

Haha, I give my snakes kisses and for the most part they don't seem to care. Mama will even come up to my face and press her nose up to my lips sometimes. She really is a lovable blob. I got a video of her before I held snap, I'll have to put it on youtube sometime tomorrow.

[kibakiba]

Tiny is getting ready to shed again and this time I'd like to have a shed box, however, I don't have anything to make one with at this time. I have a glass jar I could use, or if I ate a thing of yogurt I could wash out the yogurt container (its a really small one). Here's a picture of the glass jar. Would it work for a shed area if I put some moist paper towels or news paper in there?

http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/4299/sdc11421t.jpg

[ConcinusMan]

Personally, I don't use shed boxes unless a troubled shed is in progress. You may not need it if there's enough plastic plants, wood, or other objects for him to assist him, and the humidity is high enough. I usually start misting their enclosure(and the snake) after the eyes go clear, to keep the humidity up. That's usually all that is needed.

My northwesterns seem to love nesting down in damp substrate when they're about to shed. It couldn't hurt to keep an area damp (not wet) for them for a few days until the shed happens.

[kibakiba]

Well, both Tiny and squirt had problems last time. I mist my room daily due to the heater and low humidity here, which I'm sensitive to. I also mist their tanks just to make sure they get enough of it. Even when I do that, they had a lot of trouble. I'd rather have it in there just in case.

I was preparing the babies food and Ember and Snap smelt it and attacked each other (hadn't gotten it near them yet it was sitting in my room thawing) They bit each others mouths. How can I make sure they wont get infected? I have them both separated right now. I know Snap is bleeding a little bit but Ember seems fine. How long would it take for it t start swelling? Both of them are closing their mouths fine right now.

[ConcinusMan]

Oh crap. That's not good. Check them tomorrow. Look for swelling around where their "lips" seal together. It should be a nice tight seal.

Seriously, if they're doing that just by smelling food (not after you've fed them, or during feeding) then I suggest you keep them apart. I've never had them do that unless they just ate or if they were being fed together. They should only be doing that if one has food, or if they smell food on the other one.

I tried to warn you. I hope they'll be OK.

[kibakiba]

Alright. Should I still feed them? and keep them separate? Sorry for all the questions, I just want to make sure I'm not harming them. Funny, I know both of them go wild for fish, but in this case I only had pinkies being cut up for them. We got extra small pinkies in some of our "large pinkie" boxes and I was going to feed the smaller mice to Ember and Snap and feed the smaller ones to the others. The concinnus are almost double the size of Runt now ;)

[kibakiba]

No signs of swelling for Snap or Ember, however, Ember is having a bit of trouble drinking. He was pretty thirsty and had his head in the water dish for a while, but right after he slithered away from it he promptly spit up a lot of water and opened his mouth a few times and hid under the tree. I figured he probably drank too much at once and had it come up. He went back to the water dish and drank again and only had a small bit come back out.

[ConcinusMan]

Well of course they should be fed. I find that snakes usually don't do very well when you don't feed them.:rolleyes:

Sometimes when snakes are really thirsty and they drink too much at once, some comes back out. I wouldn't worry about that. Just watch their mouth area (from underneath). If you see anything out of the ordinary, such as the mouth not closing tightly, then you might have an injury to deal with. Keep a close eye on it over the next few days.

[kibakiba]

I will, I went ahead and let them eat the pinkies. Runt, Ember and Snap had their first ever whole pinkies. Runt had a little trouble with it but both Ember and Snap got it down fairly fast. I also meant since both of them had hung onto each other and Ember made Snap bleed. I didn't know whether the food could be a bad idea with the mouth wound being so new.
Ember was being pretty tame when I was examining his mouth, however, Snap didn't appreciate me looking her over and leaked some poop and musk out all over my arms... Why can't she be as sweet as she was yesterday :rolleyes:

[EasternGirl]

I hear you...girl snakes are fickle! Yesterday, Selena let me hold her a few times and she was quite calm about it. Today she hid all day. I was out all day, and when I came home I wanted to see her...so I found her and picked her up. She freaked out and hid from me for the rest of the afternoon. Everytime I came by her enclosure, if she saw me, she'd duck for cover. Later this evening she calmed down and I held her again...but then she decided she was going to make a run for it...so back in her enclosure she went. The girl needs to make up her mind! Lol...

I'm glad that Ember and Snap seem to be okay..even though Ember is having some mouth problems (and Snap is having some pooping on you issues)...I hope that turns out okay.

[kibakiba]

Haha, Snap is a typical woman... I know exactly how she feels. She's definitely a spitfire at times, but sometimes she's a down right sweetheart. I can't imagine having my mouth bitten would make me too happy with someone constantly touching me and trying to see if anything is wrong. If I ever had my mouth bitten, that would automatically put me in a pretty sour mood!

[ConcinusMan]

Just keep a close eye on the underside where the mouth seals. It should be tight. If not you'll have to get some peroxide, and triple antibiotic, and put them paper towels for a while. The inside of the mouth can heal itself just fine usually. But if the mouth doesn't seal tightly, you'll have to keep that disinfected and clean until it heals.;)

[kibakiba]

I'll have my mom pick up some peroxide just to have it handy. I've been looking them over every once in a while just to make sure. Ember's been opening his mouth a bit, but nothing is swollen from what I can see. I'm probably overreacting with them, but I really love the two of them.

[EasternGirl]

That is completely understandable...you love your pets and want what is best for them. That is a good thing!

[kibakiba]

Yeah, it's hard to see them unhappy. It's hard on me sometimes to do stuff with them with my depression, but after I perk up a bit I try to love on them a bit or give them some of their favourite food as a treat and a little sorry for having one of those moments.

I noticed Snaps mouth wasn't closed all the way when I was holding her, it was in the front. It wasn't showing any of her gums, it was just very slight. I'll be keeping an eye on her more and get some peroxide and antibiotic ready for her if it gets worse. I've been up for 24 hours, for all I know I could be seeing things, lol.

[ConcinusMan]

There's a little notch right in the front that allows their tongue to come out. That's probably what you're seeing. If you haven't noticed any swelling or gums showing on the sides by now, they'll probably be OK.

[kibakiba]

I know they have the notch ;) It's part of what makes them cute. But what I saw was it being pushed out just a little bit. I know their mouth opens a little when they stick their tongue out, but it looked slightly more open than when I looked at Ember. Either way, I'll just keep checking on them every once in a while.

[kibakiba]

Tiny's name is being put under consideration for a change. We're thinking about calling her Thumbelina instead. I can't say that she's tiny anymore. I think Thumbelina is fitting, considering she is a very small species of garter. ;) We had originally made a joke that Tiny and Squirt were going to have their names changed to Tiny Tina and Tiny Tim, but squirt fits him... He squirts poop a lot.
I'm also second guessing Runt's gender again. I was holding her for a bit and I noticed her tail didn't exactly taper much at first. I guess next year I'll know for sure. She's so small I cant even tell. Hah.

[guidofatherof5]

Sounds like name roulette:D
What's in a name when they're getting good care.

"I don't care what you call me. Just don't call me late for dinner":D

[kibakiba]

Haha, I like names that fit for them. That does fit how they are, however. I could call them really weird names, but they wouldn't care as long as they got their fill of pinkie parts.

[EasternGirl]

Yes, I think the little opening where their tongues come out makes them have the cutest little faces. I like your snakes' names, Chantel.

Sometimes I wonder if Selena is definitely a girl...I look at pictures and read stuff about the tail tapering and all that...I honestly cannot figure out the difference. All I know is that she has a short tail...it isn't long and thin. Steve saw I pic that I posted of her early on and said she looked like a girl.

These are the pics I posted...I will try to get some better ones:

[guidofatherof5]

I'm staying with my beautiful girl call. Selena is a lady.;)

[kibakiba]

She is definitely a girl... If she were a boy, you'd see a little area where its bigger behind the tail where the hemipenes would be... For me, it feels wrong staring at Runt trying to figure out what she is, but even if she is a male... She'll have to do with her mom thinking shes a girl. :D

[ConcinusMan]

Girl all the way.

Here's the difference.

Male: the area of the tail immediately after the cloaca is about the same thickness or slightly thicker than the area immediately before the cloaca.

http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/3046/gedc1640large.jpg

Now look at Selena. Look at the thickness of her tail after the cloaca, then look at her thickness just before the cloaca. Her tail is thinner because it tapers immediately after the vent. males don't do that because their hemipenes are stored in the tail. This makes a male's tail longer and makes it thicker in that area.

The two lines I put here would be the same length if she were male. In some males, the lower line would actually be a bit longer.
http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/5093/20101222newcamerapics00.jpg

[EasternGirl]

Right...I see what you are saying. Plus, the male tail looks longer and wispier...

[guidofatherof5]

Right...I see what you are saying. Plus, the male tail looks longer and wispier...

Longer and wispier isn't always a characteristic of a male;)

[kibakiba]

Mama's tail is long and wispy, Snakey's tail is a little shorter than hers, but she's 3 times the size of him. ;)

[kibakiba]

It was feeding day today. I kept my room a little cooler than usual, it kept Snap and Ember from acting like starved savages. One funny thing about feeding the babies is Squirt, he acts like a little cobra and eats with such an attitude! When I get the hemostats close to him, he immediately coils up with just his head raised, flattens his head and strikes at it. It's the cutest thing I had ever seen. I love that little guy.

[EasternGirl]

I tried to get Selena to come out for worms today...no go. I tried them with tweezers and I tried setting them down and resting my hand next to them...she held strong...she wasn't coming out as long as I was there.

[kibakiba]

It can take a while. Squirt was like that. He really hated eating when I was around. I "starved" him for a week before he finally took a worm from me.

[kibakiba]

Thumbelina (Tiny) shed. She looked like she wanted a little bit of help getting part of it off of her neck, which was stuck. I put my hand in the tank and she immediately slithered onto my hand, let me mist her with warm water and I peeled away the stuck part. After that I figured I might as well help her with the rest, but I let her do all the work, I just acted like a rock and gave her some words of encouragement. ;)
She's officially more than 3 inches.
Here's her asking me for some help... Which I cant resist. Or maybe she was showing me the pretty hat she bad from her shed. :D
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/SDC11444.jpg

[guidofatherof5]

Keep up the good work.;)

[EasternGirl]

She is adorable! I'm glad everything worked out with the shed.

[kibakiba]

I was holding snap last night ans she pulled her "put me down or I will poop on you non stop" and she did. I keep toilet paper handy to make a little diaper for her. ;) What's so funny about this time, was she seemed to have a serious case of gas. Every time she tried pooping, she farted. It made me laugh pretty hard, nothing was coming out except for her little snakie farts. :D She was trying so hard too, you could literally see her face turning red from pushing so hard. ;)

[ConcinusMan]

I could have gone a lifetime without hearing that, and wouldn't have missed a thing.:p

What cracks me up is when they do their business, lift their tail and proceed to wipe their ... on one of their cage mates. Now that's funny.

[kibakiba]

Thumbelina gets poop smeared all over her. She sleeps underneath all of them when they're all up on the tree.

[guidofatherof5]

I was holding snap last night ans she pulled her "put me down or I will poop on you non stop" and she did. I keep toilet paper handy to make a little diaper for her. ;) What's so funny about this time, was she seemed to have a serious case of gas. Every time she tried pooping, she farted. It made me laugh pretty hard, nothing was coming out except for her little snakie farts. :D She was trying so hard too, you could literally see her face turning red from pushing so hard. ;)

Now that's funny.

[EasternGirl]

Yeah...the first time I saw Selena poop...I thought she was getting into some sort of aggressive stance...with her tail up and all. Oh, the things we talk about on here! Now...snake farts..that's funny! I won't tell my son that snakes can fart....if I do, he will be constantly telling me that the snake farted...he is an eight-year-old boy after all!

[guidofatherof5]

I've given it a name here on the Ranch. "Flag up" I call it.
When the kids are in the snake room and I yell that, I always get a chuckle out of them.:D
Bathroom humor is fun.;)

[kibakiba]

It is... It does at least make you laugh every once in a while, especially at an awkward moment... Like Snap pooping all over you. :D

[kibakiba]

Mama's shedding for the third time in 4 weeks. She just got out of opaque phase. She's also more antsy than normal, but calms down when she's laying on me and getting a neck rub. :D
They all got to eat some worms today, something I'm running out of along with pinkies and fish. I got a video of it so I might upload it on youtube. I didn't get the babies on video, they were all going hog wild for food, Snap and Thumbelina both fought over the same worm piece, something way too big for Thumbelina... Luckily I caught them before anyone got hurt. Squirt also bit Snaps tail, which made me laugh a bit, he's so small compared to her and he scared her so much she pooped, musked, and hid. She must have been embarrassed to have gotten the poop scared out of her. :D Squirt might have been trying to get revenge for Snap almost eating Thumbelina... Both of them are often found cuddled up to each other. It must be love. ;)

[guidofatherof5]

(singing)Whole lotta sheddin' goin' on. Thank you, thank you very much.:D

Yes, I know it was Jerry Lee Lewis, not Elvis that made the song famous.;)

[kibakiba]

Haha, there is indeed a lot of shedding going on. It seems like the bigger she gets, the more lovable her personality is. She went crazy for food today, and when she's seeking love, she slithers quickly up to my hands and tries crawling up them. She's not normally like that, except maybe with food... But not quite as wild. ;) I've also got Runt shedding and Squirt's looking a little dull, and so is Ember. So maybe I'll have a lot of shedding babies soon. :D

[guidofatherof5]

That can only mean one thing, GROWING, HAPPY SNAKES:)

[kibakiba]

I would hope that they're happy an growing, though... I honestly wish they would stay that size forever ;) I am interested to see how cute they are when they're older. Ember and Snap are going through a growth spurt, over an inch in 2 weeks. I think that's more than they've ever grown since I've gotten them in that time frame).
Ember also has been getting more and more tame, but he's still a little skittish if anything touches him unexpectedly. Snap... Well she's just her same poopy, gassy self. :D

[ConcinusMan]

Seems like everyone who isn't brumating here went cloudy on me overnight last night. That includes the babies. Jeez, they just shed about 24 days ago.

[kibakiba]

It seemed to be a one by one thing going on here, Mama went cloudy 3 days ago, came out of it, then Runt went cloudy... When she gets out of it I'm interested to see if one of the other babies are going to go cloudy ;)

[kibakiba]

Well I uploaded the video, only to realize I didn't take out the sound... So I shall re upload it and it should be up within 30 minutes.
-Edit, youtube is not cooperating... I'll do it tomorrow I don't feel like fussing with it right now.

[kibakiba]

Mama just shed about 3 hours ago. She started shedding backwards... Her tail was the skin that came off first. I gave her a mist and let her start it, but after she got that done she was desperately trying to get a piece of it off of her throat... It seemed to be stuck in her mouth and on her neck, so I helped her a bit. She wouldn't let me put her back in the enclosure. She kept crawling back up my arm so I decided to act as a stick for her. I think she was expecting me to do it for her ;) She for it off of her neck and then looked at me like "Ummm... Hello? You're not taking my skin off... I'm too lazy to be expected to do anything like this by myself." She didn't win me over with her mind control... Okay, maybe just a little bit. :D

[kibakiba]

Runt shed while I was sleeping, she got it off perfectly and beautifully. She seemed like she wanted to show off how pretty she was. She's usually sleeping under her tree, but she was showing off her lovely black and tan body all over the tank. :D

[ConcinusMan]

Well I uploaded the video, only to realize I didn't take out the sound... So I shall re upload it and it should be up within 30 minutes.
-Edit, youtube is not cooperating... I'll do it tomorrow I don't feel like fussing with it right now.

I have trouble uploading sometimes too. It seems to help if you do it during non-peak hours and if you have no other tabs or browser windows open, and do not use your computer (especially the internet browser) for anything else until it's published.


Did you try uploading again? BTW, what's your channel name?

[kibakiba]

I got lazy, I'll try it now though and my youtube name is TheShiroDragon. :) Shiro was a nickname of mine for a few years, it means White in Japanese. I also like dragons, so my name means The white dragon pretty much.
If it works, the video should be up in about 15 minutes.

[ConcinusMan]

Better than "white devil" I suppose. :p

[kibakiba]

It's a better name than yours... :p

[kibakiba]

MP6WwB-0Dxg


My two little pigs! :D

[ConcinusMan]

Like yours, mine has a story behind it. DVF stands for Digital Video Forums. DrinkOrDie is my screen name on that forum.

DrinkOrDie: DrinkOrDie - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DrinkOrDie)

In the early to mid 90's I might have been one of those people known to be running Windows versions that had not yet been released.:rolleyes:

I had originally planned to use that channel to post videos showing how to pirate...copy.. ehem... I mean, backup your commercial copy-protected DVD's thereby exercising your rights under the Digital Millenium Copyright act.

Under that act, in spite of the FBI warnings on a DVD, you have every right to back them up for personal use if you paid for the original and still own it.(It's called "fair use") The copyright holders have every right to make that difficult, but it's still possible to do so and I think people have a right to know how that's done. Just never got around to using youtube for that. Instead I posted step-by-step guides on various forums on the web.

Nobody should have to pay for a DVD movie twice just because their kids destroyed the original. Make a copy, keep the original, and let the kids destroy the copy. I'll just make another.:D

[kibakiba]

Yeah, I've had things like that happen. I ended up breaking a disk 3 times, bough it all 3 times and the 3rd time I got angry, spending 70 dollars on a movie I liked... So I put it on my computer instead. Then my HDD crashed. Easy to say, I hated my life right then. :D

[ConcinusMan]

Great video Chantel. Turned out great!

Using 'tongs', hemostats, whatever, works out pretty well doesn't it?

[kibakiba]

Yeah. It really saves me when Mama gets in her ravenous "everything that moves is food" stuff. Though, what sucks is that she was doing her "stay-at-the-top-with-mouth-open" trick, when I turned on the camera she immediately stopped. :rolleyes:

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah, I've had things like that happen. I ended up breaking a disk 3 times, bough it all 3 times and the 3rd time I got angry, spending 70 dollars on a movie I liked... So I put it on my computer instead. Then my HDD crashed. Easy to say, I hated my life right then. :D

Copy protected DVD's really aren't so protected. It's actually quite easy to make a copy with the right software, a dual-layer DVD burner, and little know-how.;)

Also perfectly legal as long as you still own the original, and do not distribute or sell your copies.;) The copyright owners just don't want you to know that for obvious reasons.

Back on topic, your snakes look like they're about to burst at the seams! Maybe you should rename them "chubby" and "chubbier" LoL.:p

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah. It really saves me when Mama gets in her ravenous "everything that moves is food" stuff. Though, what sucks is that she was doing her "stay-at-the-top-with-mouth-open" trick, when I turned on the camera she immediately stopped. :rolleyes:

I have the same problem. I have yet to get a good clip of that.

[kibakiba]

Mama is affectionately nicknamed. Fatty-Patty, Fatso, Pinhead, Fat***, and my favourite "chubby-chubby-chubs". :D Snakey is on a diet, he's been gaining weight since Mama is never in the mood anymore, and Mama is probably preggo now. Unless she has a weird condition where her back end grows constantly... Hah.


http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/SDC11455.jpg
Taken today, she was fed yesterday and has since had 3 extremely large poos

[ConcinusMan]

Nahh.. she just needs to fart.

[kibakiba]

Maybe. I did hear a bit of a squeak from the tank and someone had their tail up... :D

[ConcinusMan]

"Gravid"... She resembles that remark. Seriously though, I'd bet money she is gravid. Thing about Northwesterns, you can't go by the mating date (They can hold the sperm and ovulate much later on) but when they start looking like that, you know they're gravid. Hard to predict how long it will be though.

[kibakiba]

Yes that is what I meant by preggo, you smart*** :p:rolleyes:
I'm hoping it'll be in at least 2 months, by then we'd have enough money to feed them for a while. I want to keep the babies until they colour up to see if there's any I'd like to keep. I have to have at least one of Mama's offspring just in case. Being both Mama and Snakey's baby, it'd be special to have one of them once they got old.

[ConcinusMan]

I'd say it's more like "within" two months. Probably before that.

[kibakiba]

I hope not. But either way I know I'll be excited when it does happen. I'll be a grandma! At 22! Yaaaaaay!

[EasternGirl]

What did I miss..Mama is preggers?

[kibakiba]

Yeah, she's been leading me on to believe she is since late July, showing signs of it... But never having any babies, but now she is growing quite a bit with a voracious hunger that can never be quenched. ;)

[EasternGirl]

Oh...that would be so cool!

[kibakiba]

Yeah, I'm excited for her. We bought her a box of fuzzies so hopefully she'll stop trying to swallow my fingers. :D

[kibakiba]

I haven't posted my progress with Snap in a little while. I haven't been holding her very much because I've had a lot going on. I held her tonight and she didn't like it much, but she calmed down and let me rub her back. That's something she almost never lets me do. She sat calmly in my hand for about 20 minutes and when I put her back she didn't seem to want to get off my hand. She looked up at me like "aww I was just getting comfy... Can I stay with you for 5 more minutes? Please?!" I gave her a little rub on the head and she slowly slithered off my hand. Usually she wants off my hand as fast as she can get off. Her cuteness today made my heart melt.

[ConcinusMan]

Maybe. I did hear a bit of a squeak from the tank and someone had their tail up... :D

That happened just a little while ago. I was feeding the babies and I heard a weird squeeky squish sound. I was like "What the f%&K was that?" I looked down and Big Bertha had her "flag up" :eek:

At first I though that perhaps I had stepped on a frog.:p

[kibakiba]

When Snap farted when she was trying to poop on me, I heard... Well, a fart sound and I wasn't thinking it was her and asked my boyfriend if he had farted, he didn't and I didn't. I looked down and Snap did it again. :D

Mama's belly has gotten even bigger and she's a bit skittish... When I opened the top to check on her and Snakey, she freaked out and didn't seem to want me touching her at all. It was also time for food, so I grabbed her fuzzy and she immediately took it. Snakey got jealous and tried stealing her food, and succeeded... Until I picked him up and had to get him to let go. The fuzzy was 10 times the size of his head, literally. I gave it back to Mama and Snakey tried to steal it again! I had a pinkie for him, but he didn't want that. :rolleyes: But eventually, he took his pinkie. He had a lot of trouble swallowing it, it took him about 30 minutes to get it down and he was drooling on it a bit. I was actually kind of scared that he was going to suffocate, but decided against trying to help him because I didn't want to hurt him. Luckily he got it down after a little bit.

On another note, Snap and Ember are looking pretty dull now. Snap is more dull than Ember, though. This will be her 5th shed with me now I believe. She's been a bit of a sweetheart since last night. She let me rub her neck while she was in the tank. Ember is losing colour in his face, he has a little blue/green mustache now. :D

[gregmonsta]

Lol .... a nice account :D ... does it usually take snakey so long to eat a pinky? It does sound like an awfully long time.

[ConcinusMan]

Both of them should continue to change color. More blue/green comes in as they get older. Here's what a 3 stripe looks like as an adult, and also a single stripe as an adult. You'll notice they have more blue/green in them. Especially the face/throat and in the case of 3 stripers, that color also comes in later to the lateral stripes sometimes. This is typical of concinnus' found in the northern part of their range.

http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/7102/dscn0476medium.jpg
http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/attachments/general-talk/1569d1295463099-t-s-concinnus-joes-pics-007.jpg

Also, these two could easily have been siblings since those snakes are dimorphic. Like polymorphism in T. ordinoides. Litters consist of both types, even if both parents are the same type.

[kibakiba]

Snakey usually gulps down a pinkie within a minute or two. I don't know why he was having such a hard time with that one. I don't think it was larger than what I normally feed them.

Snap hasn't changed much, other than her stripe changing from a creamy light green to a more neon yellowy green. Ember is changing a lot though, in a good way. I think it's cute the way he looks right now with his little mustache. :D

[EasternGirl]

I liked your video!

[kibakiba]

Snap and Squirt are in opaque phase. :D

Snap has been quite the sweetheart to me lately. She still has a little bit of a fuss when I hold her but she's been a lot more calm and she hasn't pooped on me. She was calm enough to lay on my chest in bed with me for 30 minutes.


Mama had a bit of trouble pooping last night... Or the lack of it. She was farting all night with her tail in the air. I was watching videos on youtube with my boyfriend... When all the sudden I hear the familiar "pfffthhhhh" sound come from the tank... I walked over and it was Mama. She looked at me like "what are you looking at, dude?" Poor Mama... :D

[ConcinusMan]

Cool! You're doing a fantastic job of raising them Chantel. That pleases me. I know my babies are in good hands. At the rate they're going, don't be surprised if they become 3 footers by the time they're 5 or 6 years old. They have the genes for it and there are some monster sized snakes out there where I got the parents. You're going to need a bigger tank!

With that in mind, I'll tell you now when you know it's time for a bigger tank. When they are as long as their tank, plus the width, it's time for a bigger tank.;)

They're going to need 48X12 inches of floor space (a 55 gallon long tank) by the time they are 5 or 6 years old if you intend to house them together.:eek:

But that space can house them both, and a few ordinoides or smaller snakes no problem.;)

[EasternGirl]

I enjoy getting the update on snake farts! LMAO....

[kibakiba]

Ember just went opaque, this is his 7th shed now I believe.

If I succeed at my soap making, I plan on buying a couple large tanks and possibly moving them to my bedroom. I have no room in my office area, and I know the heater blowing at them is bad. Right now, though, I have no reliable heater in my bedroom and it's always dark because I'm only in there the get dressed and sleep. I'm not sure about housing Ember and Snap together when they're adults, I wouldn't want any mating between them. As much as I love baby concinnus, I would have a hard time taking care of them and an even harder time giving them away.

Marnie, I'm glad you like my snakey fart updates. :D No farts today, unfortunately.

Mama's belly is getting bigger and bigger. She's also been more restless and nervous. I simply turned off her lamp for bed time last night and she got so scared that she rammed into the glass. She's eaten 2 fuzzies this week and is still hungry. She's been nipping at my fingers...

[EasternGirl]

Nothing like a pregnant female...I remember when I was pregnant with my son...no amount of food could satiate me and I gained 60 pounds! I probably would have eaten a fuzzy if you dangled it in front of me...ROFL!

More snakie fart updates!! It's my stress relief with all of this studying for nursing school...takes my mind off the stress and makes me laugh!

[guidofatherof5]

Even snake bathroom humor is funny.:D

[mustang]

my biology teacher and i are getting on eachothers (we always do we know eachother well :P) nerves we were talking bout genetics in wildlife and she uses either easier termonology or harder and polymorphism flippn landed in the middle

[kibakiba]

This has to be one of the funniest things I have seen and heard in my entire life. Snap was sitting on her tree and she kept doing the little yawning thing, so I thought something might have been wrong with her jaw or maybe something was stuck in her mouth. I opened the lid and slowly reached in and kept my hand coming from the side so it wouldn't scare her, and right as I touched her she darted to the other side of the tank, musking and she farted just a little bit it sounded pretty wet. Maybe I scared the poop and gas out of her. I love her so much.

[EasternGirl]

You have the gasiest snakes, Chantel! It's too funny! Thanks...now I can go back to studying...

[kibakiba]

Haha, I do. Snap is being a sweetie right now. I have her right now. She's just hanging with me and getting a neck rub. :D

[mustang]

Haha, I do. Snap is being a sweetie right now. I have her right now. She's just hanging with me and getting a neck rub. :D
snap-"ok five yards to the mouse hole, ten yards up the frame work, burrow through the insulation or through an air vent, any mouse(ice) and or pinky(s) must be swallowed on site, then freedom!

[kibakiba]

Squirt retained his shed for a second time. I'm a little worried about him, I feed them a nice varied diet, they always have fresh water and I mist them frequently if the humidity in my room is low. I kind of feel like I'm doing something wrong, there shouldn't be any reason for him to retain two sheds in a row. I feel so bad for him. He didn't fuss as much as last time, but he did musk me until he couldn't musk anymore. After I got it off of him, he coiled up in my hands. Ember also retained his eyecaps, but he had little "eyelashes" that helped me notice that they were still on. He didn't like me touching him and he gave me a little nip afterward, but that's okay. I helped him.

[guidofatherof5]

What is telling you it's a retained shed?
I'm just wondering what alerts you.
I know one of my snakes is having trouble when they only get chunks of shed off or I see folded skin along the body(only on young snakes)
I have snakes that shed a day after the opaque phase is over and some take a week's time.
I guess what I'm saying is time can't be used as a rule on shedding.

[kibakiba]

He had it off of his nose, but that was it. I found him with his head by the water dish laying on his side. His whole body was crinkly. He wasn't moving at all and it didn't look like he was breathing. When I picked him up he didn't move much but tensed up. When I started peeling it away from his face he started moving around a bit and kept musking. The shed itself was extremely thin and really hard to get off of him. It seemed to be glued to his skin. His eyes were also very dark. All of my northwesterns eyes are usually darker brown, but I know him apart from Thumbelina because his eyes are so bright. After the shed was off and he started breathing more, his eyes went back to being bright.

[guidofatherof5]

Diffidently a retained shed.
Sounds like a shed box or running warm water and an emergency shed is needed.

[kibakiba]

Yeah I got it off of him with a warm washcloth. I didn't have the large bowl that I normally use for soaking and leaving them in there with a warm damp washcloth. Squirt definitely didn't like the help until it was over.

What could really cause him to retain his shed like that? I try to keep all of my snakes as healthy as possible and I keep the humidity in my room a lot higher than what it is in the rest of the house and Squirt does seem like a healthy little guy.

[EasternGirl]

That is scary. I don't know much about shedding. I do know that I'm getting concerned because Selena has been dusty looking for two weeks now and she is only now starting to look like she is beginning to shed on her head. I'm guessing her eyecaps already came off because her eyes aren't cloudy anymore. We're snowed in right now, but I think that I am going to go out and get her a bigger water dish when I can get out...one that she has more room to swim around in.

[ConcinusMan]

Marnie, shedding goes like this...

First you may notice the snake's colors looking a bit dull for a week or two, then the eyes go cloudy(and sometimes the belly) for a few days, then they clear up. The snake should shed within a couple of days after the eyes go clear. The skin should come off in one piece like a sock pulled inside out.

A retained shed is when that last part doesn't happen for some reason. If the snake fails to shed, the old skin gets fused to the new and it can be fatal.

Reptile Skin Shedding (http://www.anapsid.org/shedding.html)

[EasternGirl]

Okay...well, Selena shed today and everything came off in one piece but she has a piece stuck on her head...I tried to pull it off and she got mad...I put her in her water dish and she swam around but it still didn't come off...what do I do? I think it's the whole head part that's stuck.

[EasternGirl]

And someone needs to help Chantel with her snake retaining his shed...sorry, Chantel...I didn't mean to interrupt...

[gregmonsta]

Try the shed box idea with her ;). As most of it came off you can give it a little time before trying again. She may still peel it by herself. For head-pieces I find tweezers can be handy - less threatening finger near the head ;)

[ConcinusMan]

Okay...well, Selena shed today and everything came off in one piece but she has a piece stuck on her head.

Then it didn't come off in one piece.:rolleyes:



I tried to pull it off and she got mad...I put her in her water dish and she swam around but it still didn't come off...what do I do?

The longer it stays on, the worse the situation becomes. If you're sure there's still skin on the head, then forget about her "getting mad" and you firmly grasp her in such a way that allows you to get the skin off. In other words, force her. Find where the edge of it is, use your fingernail if you have to, and get the skin off. Sometimes you just have do whats best for their health in spite of their protest.

I had a baby radix that had troubled shed a while back. One day (about a week after shedding), I found her barely alive and highly distressed. The cause was that the shed only came off from the neck down. Somehow I had missed the fact that the skin on her head hadn't come off.

That snake never did have a normal shed any of the times. I went through this several times, always having to force hold that snake and get skin off of it to save it's life. It eventually did die. Of failure to shed. Go figure.:rolleyes:

[guidofatherof5]

I have found that a warm, moist micro-cloth can catch the edge of the shed quiet easily. I've even used a 3M Scotch pad to assist in shedding.
http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/husbandry/5407-3m-shedding-pad.html

Hope it helps.

[EasternGirl]

Okay...well I tried to pull it off with tweezers...much to her protest...but the one piece is attached to her eye....I was really afraid I was going to hurt her, so I stopped and left it alone. I'm not sure if she still has shed on the rest of her head or if it is just the two little pieces on either side of her eyes. I am going to leave her be for a bit because I think I'm going to give her a heart attack if I don't leave her alone right now....she was really scared. Maybe I will put her in some lukewarm water in the morning if it still hasn't come off on it's own. How do I make a shed box?

[guidofatherof5]

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/husbandry/5014-cheap-shed-box.html

[kibakiba]

Don't worry about interrupting my thread, little Squirt is doing perfect now that the shed is off. He's been happily roaming around the tank and snuggling up with the others. The piece that's stuck on Selena's eye may come off pretty easily if you take a damp cloth with warm water and rub it softly on her face. She might fight you a little bit, but it's for the better. Retained sheds can kill them or cause a lot of problems.

[EasternGirl]

Yeah...I wish I could get a video of Selena..maybe I will have my son take one while I'm holding her. You guys have to see how she is when I hold her...putting a wash cloth on her face will not be an easy task. For starters, her head is still only the size of my pinkie fingernail...I am so afraid of hurting her...especially when she is squirming all over and jerking her head around. Last night, when I was trying to use the tweezers...she was jerking all over...and I had to hold her firmly, I was afraid I would squish her or break her neck...she finally flopped out of my hands and landed on the floor...and she is fast! I had to grab her before she could get away. The stress it must be causing her... The funny part was that she is so skiddish...she did not try to bite me once when I was holding her...then when I put her back in her enclosure...she kept looking at me and making these sad little attempts at a bite in my direction. I think the piece near her eye came off....I put her in a bowl of warm water last night. The other piece on the other side of her face is still there...it looks like maybe she didn't get the shed off of her whole face. I am going to put a vaporizer in the room she is in today to try to get the humidity levels up...maybe try the shed box. Thanks everyone for the help with this!

Oh...she did eat today, so I guess that's a good sign, right?

[EasternGirl]

Oh, Chantel...I'm glad that Squirt is doing well now!

[kibakiba]

Don't be afraid of hurting her, she may struggle but its better than her loosing an eye or something. I had to do the same with Squirt, Selena is probably 3 times the size of him or more. This was Thumbelina in early October, she's only grown a quarter of an inch since then, and Squirt is much smaller than her.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/Tiny_ate.jpg

[guidofatherof5]

Remember, retained eye caps are a problem but if the old lens fuses with the new one injury(blindness) to the eye could occur if it's forced off.
I'm not saying you shouldn't try.
I've left old caps on and they came off in the next shed. That next shed can happen quickly since the snake is aware of the retained shed.
This will signal an emergency shed. They do the same thing with a mite infestation.
Do you do a soak or a shed box?

[EasternGirl]

I put a vaporizer in the room today to make the room humid. I also put a bowl of warm water in her enclosure...hoping she will swim around in it a bit. I did put her in some water last night. I will try the shed box later today if the water bowl doesn't work...then maybe the tweezers again.

Chantel....Thumbelina was really small! I'm really afraid of hurting her eyes, though.

[kibakiba]

Just do it really gently, you don't have to scrub her eye or anything, just a gentle downward motion from the top to the bottom works, and if that doesn't make it come off, it would at least help to loosen it for if you use the tweezers.

[guidofatherof5]

I put a vaporizer in the room today to make the room humid. I also put a bowl of warm water in her enclosure...hoping she will swim around in it a bit. I did put her in some water last night. I will try the shed box later today if the water bowl doesn't work...then maybe the tweezers again.

Chantel....Thumbelina was really small! I'm really afraid of hurting her eyes, though.


A wet paper towel or wet soft cloth would be much safer and do as good a job.;)

[ConcinusMan]

You guys have to see how she is when I hold her...putting a wash cloth on her face will not be an easy task. For starters, her head is still only the size of my pinkie fingernail...I am so afraid of hurting her...especially when she is squirming all over and jerking her head around.

Believe me, been there, done that. We don't need to see video, we know what you're going through. It's good to be very observant and mindful of your snake and to watch for potential problems but don't get overprotective and worry yourself. Garter snakes have been surviving far worse problems far longer than any of us has been alive.

If it's too much and your instinct is to leave it be, then don't worry yourself over it. Garter snakes are very resilient. An eye cap retained until next shed is far from the end of the world.;)

I would encourage the effort to provide humidity. I have kept ringneck snakes before when a lot of other people sometimes say they are impossible. It's all about micro climates. Same goes for very young garter snakes. Some people say that they have no problem keeping adults, but can't seem to keep little ones alive. It's all a matter of micro climate.

If could suggest one thing it is this: Try to provide not only a wide temperature gradient, but also moist retreats. If that means you have to lift a hide daily and mist underneath it, then that provides a micro climate.

I've never been a big fan of "shed boxes" since that kind of micro climate should be provided in their regular enclosure in the first place. My snakes generally do not soak or need a shed box. This is because of the micro climates I provide. Even a moist substrate in one corner with a hide, would be considered a micro climate. I try to provide that for very small snakes. It's important!

Perhaps someone with experience with this can elaborate?

Micro climates are extremely important for young garters and especially for T. ordinoides babies. Shed problems can be avoided but those little ones need those little pockets of moisture, humidity and temperature differences.

[kibakiba]

I do provide things like that for my little ones. They don't ever soak and they don't like being anywhere near the misted areas, but once they do go clear I can usually find them inside of their little log tube that I mist pretty often. Snap and Ember hate me for it, Snap even goes as far as to hiss and strike at me when I go to mist somewhere in the tank, her favorite spot... Underneath their tree. Though I guess it's like me when my mom decides to "clean" my room(mess it up and lose my things) or make my bed in a different way than I like it. :rolleyes:

I also mist inside Thumbelina and Squirt's favorite hiding place, because I know that they are the troubled shedders. Though, I only really mist around there if one of them is going into shed.

I've been wondering about Squirt. He's always seemed a little bit more frail than Thumbelina, and will sometimes have a bad appetite... Like eating only one worm, fish or pinky part and refusing all else for about a week or two. He used to be larger than Thumbelina, and now she's starting to outgrow him. Could his shedding problem be linked to his refusing of food every now and then? He does seem to start refusing food more often 2 weeks before he sheds. I was thinking about it earlier, and realized that there is a bit of a pattern, the 3 times he's shed for me he did refuse food or eat very little for at least 2 weeks before he shed. I hope he grows out of doing that, I would really hate for anything to happen to him if I didn't catch it in time.

[guidofatherof5]

I've never been a big fan of "shed boxes" since that kind of micro climate should be provided in their regular enclosure in the first place. My snakes generally do not soak or need a shed box. This is because of the micro climates I provide. Even a moist substrate in one corner with a hide, would be considered a micro climate. I try to provide that for very small snakes. It's important!

Providing the perfect(impossible) conditions in captivity still doesn't keep sheds from being retained.
You yourself have reported retained sheds with a few of your snakes and that was with a micro-climate.
Retained sheds are probably a result of many factors, stress, hormones, genetics, etc.
Shed boxes/bags and emergency sheds will always be a part of keeping garter snakes.
The more snakes you keep the greater the incident of retained sheds.
Having those tools(shed box/bag) available is just being prepared.

[kibakiba]

There's something wrong with Squirt's mouth. I was feeding the older ones left over fuzzies from Mama's feeding time, and I noticed Squirt's jaw looking as if he had gotten bitten or had something stuck in there. I picked him up and there isn't any obvious signs of an injury or anything being stuck in his mouth other than his mouth being slightly open. I didn't see any swelling when I opened his mouth.
What could it be?

[Mommy2many]

Do you have a picture?

[kibakiba]

I checked on him again and his mouth is fine. It just looked pretty much like his mouth was stuck open partially.

On another note Mama's backside looks like it's going to burst and the poor girl cant stop moving. I was feeding the older babies and she kept trying to get out, and to allow her some freedom I kept the tank open and let her slither around the top and my desk, where she then slithered onto my hand. She's a really calm girl, she rarely moves if I'm holding her but she seemed too restless to stop. she seemed comforted when I was softly rubbing my finger on her belly. That was one of the only times I got her to stop moving. I'll ad a picture of how huge she is later.

[guidofatherof5]

Looking forward to the photos.;)

[kibakiba]

Getting them off my camera and resized now!

Here is a picture of here almost a month ago, on Jan. 15th
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/Mama_20_days_ago.jpg
(she was asking me if she could buy some stuff with my card...:rolleyes: :D)


Here is her yesterday
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/Mama_yesterday.jpg



And here's a picture my boyfriend screenshotted off my webcam... It's really horrible quality, but it's cute.
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/Nakey_Snakey.jpg

Snakey's nickname is "nakey snakey" because my niece and nephew cant pronounce anything with an "s" in it so they say "nake" instead of "snake" and "nakey" instead of "snakey" :D

[kibakiba]

Here's another 2 pictures of some of my babies. :D

Snap fell asleep upside down on my hand. I don't know why. She stayed like that for 30 minutes.
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/Happy_Snappy.jpg

And here's Ember, Snap and Thumbelina all cuddling together.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/SnapEmberThumbelina.jpg

Aren't they so cute?

[guidofatherof5]

Yes, they are.

[zooplan]

Snap fell asleep upside down on my hand. I don't know why. She stayed like that for 30 minutes.


Thats the way of predator fooling European Grass Snakes do.
Dispaying theirself as dead. Curling up at their back, opening their mouths with tongue protruded. Together with musking it´s really realistic!

[kibakiba]

She was really calm that day when I was holding her, no musking, pooping or biting. She just wound up in a weird position, I guess. :p She did it again today, too. It was easy to see that she was alive, she'd fool no one with her little trick if she did it for that reason. She's move around a bit but stay on her back. Other than her doing that when she relaxes with me, she's a normal... Feisty little concinnus. :D

[kibakiba]

After reading Marnies post about Selena's mouth I remember seeing her open her mouth a couple times and I just noticed that her mouth is stuck open, however, I don't see anything in her mouth. Could I pu a little peroxide on a Q-tip an rub it in her mouth just tp make sure she's okay? I'd get a picture, but my camera's flash turns the picture 100% white.

[ConcinusMan]

I know I told you to get peroxide before Chantel but after using it for over a month, it only kept the wound from getting worse. It saw improvment but it wasn't healing. Then I read that peroxide can damage healthy tissue and that vets use chlorhexidine instead. I started using the chlorhexidine and the wounds healed quickly and completely. Yours probably have the same problem mine did. It's from biting each other in the mouth. It will only fester and get worse without treatment. The longer it's like that, the less likely the mouth will ever heal completely and seal shut properly.

[kibakiba]

Yes, I've known that for a few years now. When I got my lip pierced twice, they told me never EVER use peroxide or rubbing alcohol, because it would make it so that the scar tissue would swell up more. Needless to say, I didn't listen. I was being a stupid teenager and now I have 2 big lumpy craters in my lip... Lol.
What else might help? We, unfortunately, only have 5 dollars for the rest of the month so I cant buy anything. Is there anything I could use that I might have to help Thumbelina? It really seems uncomfortable for her. She continually opens and closes her mouth.

[ConcinusMan]

PM me with your address again. I can't seem to find it right now. I'll send you some medicine. You need to take care of this asap.

[kibakiba]

Okay. Thank you Richard. I'll see if I can give you some money next month for helping me.

[erinlovessnakes]

I'm gelous

[kibakiba]

Why are you jealous?

[kibakiba]

I put a little peroxide on their mouths with a very tiny amount of antibiotic ointment for now. Squirt put up the biggest fuss, but after it was all done his mouth closed a bit more than it was on the side that was bitten. Thumbelina's mouth is swollen all the way around. I'll be getting the other medicine soon. I'm glad I have your help, I'm continually grateful to have found this forum and make such great friends :D

[kibakiba]

I just got the medicine for my babies. Thank you so much for sending it, Richard. I'm sure the babies will be grateful, too.

Neither liked me holding them tightly and rubbing the stuff on their mouth. Thumbelina shed yesterday and her mouth is sealed up more and the swelling seemed to have gone down more, but Squirt's mouth got extremely bad. It's worse than what Thumbelina's was a couple days ago. I made sure to get his mouth cleaned up but he started bleeding and biting me. I hope he'll be okay.

Richard, I used about an ounce of water and a few drops of the medicine, that would be enough right? It was a very slight pink colour like the instructions said. Can I save it and put some saran wrap on it, or should I just dump it out? I don't want to waste it if I don't have to.

Thanks again. It means a lot to me!

[ConcinusMan]

You can reuse it but make some fresh about every other day. Sounds like some of them are hurt pretty bad around the mouth. When they bite each other in the mouth like that, it swells up fast and then gets a bit infected, preventing it from healing.

Depending on how bad it is, at first it might look like it's getting worse, especially since it will sometimes bleed a bit. That's OK. The important thing is to get that stuff in the wounded area even if it has to bleed a bit to do it. Then any gaps around the mouth should be lightly covered with the ointment afterwards. I know it's rough on all of you but you'll see. Give it some time and you'll see it's healing. It may take some time for the gap to begin to close even after the infection is gone and the swelling has gone down. Anyway, after a few days, maybe a week, it should stop bleeding when you apply it and you'll see the red inflamed gums turn to pink. When you see that, you'll know it's working. I would keep this up for at least 10 days. 14 would be better. It's also very important to keep the container they're in VERY CLEAN. Wash it often and change the paper towel daily. Feed them small meals because of the handling and treat them an hour or two after their meal.

This medicine and this treatment is exactly how vets treat mouth injuries or infections in snakes. Just keep it up and save on the vet bill.;)

[kibakiba]

Yeah, I put ointment on both of their mouths. I don't mind doing it though, I know it needs to be done and if it helps them in the long run its worth it, even if I don't like having to restrain them. I checked on them just a second ago and Squirt's mouth is looking a little bit better already. I'm really glad that I have it. I'll do another application when I check on Mama in a few hours since I wake up every other hour to check on her and make sure she's okay.

[EasternGirl]

Okay...I'm just now reading these posts...sorry guys, I've been so busy with school. First off, I want to make sure I am getting enough of the hibiclens in the water...I'm putting a couple of little drops in 5oz of water....is that enough?

Second, I would like to mist an area in Selena's cage, since she looks like she is trying to shed again. I have carefresh substrate....many plants that she likes to hide under...a cool hide and a warm hide....but she doesn't really use her hides much...she just burrows under her substrate. What should I mist?

Different topic...Chantel, I had a belly button ring that ripped out when I was pregnant with my son...got a nice scar from that....lol.

I hope your snakies mouths are okay! I just keep putting hibiclens on Selena's mouth...I still feel like maybe something is going on up there but I just can't see anything...and I can't get her to open her mouth. I have tried getting aggressive...holding her firm and squeezing her mouth...trying to get tweezers wedged under the side to lift it...she is stubborn! Like I said, I don't want to hurt her. She still has retained shed on her face and one eye cap on that is folded back. I am not going to try to mess with that though.

[gregmonsta]

Fingers crossed they'll heal up quickly ;) with the help you received I'm sure they'll be back to normal before long.

[kibakiba]

Marnie, that seems like it would be enough. In my opinion, it's always better to have too little than too much.
I mist all over my babies tank. They also like to be underneath the substrate, but it helps to keep the humidity higher. I mist until everything is just ever so slightly damp. You never want to get it too wet.

Ouch! When I was a teenager and had the liprings my friends were obsessed with playing with them and would constantly tug on them and get them infected! I hated it.

Maybe you can try to use the Q-tip to open Selena's mouth? That's what I do with Squirt. I get the Q-tip a little damp with the medicine and very slightly try to wedge it under his mouth. Since both of them are so tiny I needed to get them to open up in a different way. They still resist it, but after I put them back in their temporary home, they seem to be relieved and a bit better with their mouths. With only two applications so far, Squirt's mouth is starting to close all the way but it's still really red.

[ConcinusMan]

Around days 5-7 of the treatment you should begin to really see some major improvement. If it doesn't seem to be getting better you can try mixing the medicine a little stronger.

[kibakiba]

I put Squirt's nightly application on and he was really mad, he bit me 5 times and when I put him back he struck at me and latched on. Something tells me he's not a happy camper right now. Thumbelina was more cooperative, though.

[ConcinusMan]

First off, I want to make sure I am getting enough of the hibiclens in the water...I'm putting a couple of little drops in 5oz of water....is that enough?

Second, I would like to mist an area in Selena's cage, since she looks like she is trying to shed again. I have carefresh substrate....many plants that she likes to hide under...a cool hide and a warm hide....but she doesn't really use her hides much...she just burrows under her substrate. What should I mist?


It doesn't have to be very precise. You could put 4 or 5 drops in 5oz of water. It's just that 4% is too strong for oral use.

I usually mist the substrate while sort of stirring it up until it's damp. I do this on the warm side so while it's drying out, it's increasing the humidity in the tank.

[EasternGirl]

Well, I have been putting the medicine on her mouth for over a week now and I haven't seen much of a change. On the good side of things, it isn't getting worse. It doesn't look infected, I can't see anything stuck in there...it just looks like it won't close completely on the left side.

I have been misting her tank a couple of times a day...I mist all of her plants and hides and the top of the substrate...it must be doing some good because she finally got the retained shed off her face. Now she is getting ready to shed again.

[kibakiba]

Today, I was looking at Squirt and Thumbelina... Thumbelina is a boy and Squirt is a Girl. Squirt is developing the female like features and getting more chunky and Thumbelina is staying narrow faced, like Snakey. When I sexed them the last few times, Thumbelina looked completely female, even her tail. Now her tail is looking... Manly. Haha. I don't want to change their names, so I'll just switch them. Squirt is Thumbelina now and Thumbelina is now Squirt.

[guidofatherof5]

If that works for you. Go for it(said like Rocky):D

[kibakiba]

Snap is angry at the world... I picked her up and she instantly bit me, musked me and kept striking at me with a closed mouth and flattened head. Richard, are you sure she doesn't have any infernalis in her? ;) I don't know why she hates me so much I pamper her and I rarely bother her... It's kind of funny. She acts like she loves me when I'm feeding her, she even tries eating me... Then any other time where there isn't food involved, she has her head flattened.Silly little girl.

[ConcinusMan]

I don't know what to say. I picked two that were always very calm when handling them, and you still ended up with a mean one! It's really not that often that I get mean ones in a litter. I'd say at least 90% of them tame right down with regular handling, or else they are just naturally easy going.

You just got "lucky" I guess.:p That behavior is extremely rare even from wild ones that I just grabbed of the ground. Didn't get bit or see the viper impression even once all last summer, from any concinnus', wild or CB.

If it's any consolation, you know how radixes are known for their good nature...

Well, I ended up with one that is mean as heck! I mean, this is mild compared to the way he usually acts. His sister is so tame that she'll come out of her hide and crawl right into my hand. This guy will strike at me when all I do is get near the tank. He hates me!
EVqIwmbrrYM

[guidofatherof5]

Keep in mind that little radix will someday be a big radix. They never forget, anything.
Sticking that finger in his face will be repayed.:D
Remember the immortal words of Khan "Revenge is a dish best served cold":D

[ConcinusMan]

Keep in mind that little radix will someday be a big radix.

Not at the rate he's going. If I didn't know any better I would swear he was 2 months old. He's just not growing. Healthy, strong, eating OK, but not really breaking any growth records. His sister is literally a foot long now. He can't be more than 6 inches. Hey, thanks. His name just hit me. I'll call him "Mighty Mouse":p

Besides, if he keeps up that attitude, he may not be alive long enough to get big.:p

[gregmonsta]

:rolleyes: He may just have 'little man syndrome' :D

[ConcinusMan]

Yup. I think so. On second thought, maybe I should call him "Napoleon"

[kibakiba]

Well Ember is no better. He freaks out at any movement. He calms down after I hold him for a while, though. But if I'm trying to get them out for cleaning time he acts like I've tried to chop his tail off. He literally goes so fast, when he hits the glass it's really loud and he looks kind of like... Well whatever happens when you hit something fast... He just doesn't like being touched, so I rarely hold him or bother him. It's funny when Snap is mad... She sits there doing this little cobra impression, sways her head while its flattened and does a little strike at my face. Best of all, she's so adorable when she does it ;)

[kibakiba]

I was holding Ember earlier and I think he's getting towards that... Teen boyish phase in his life... He started courting with my finger. I had held his sister before that, but it was weird. I seem to have a thing with my snakes, Snakey courted with me before too, haha.

[PINJOHN]

who can resist a gorgeous blond ?:D

[kibakiba]

Haha. I'm not gorgeous in any sense. I think he may just be a bit desperate. ;) The only females in the enclosure are his sister and my one year old northwerstern. Thumbelina is in there too, but she's super tiny.

[ConcinusMan]

You got violated. Hee Hee.:p

[kibakiba]

Well don't let my boyfriend know the snakes are trying to get it on with my fingers... Haha. Night make him jealous.

[kibakiba]

My niece and nephew are over and they both enjoy seeing my snakes. Today I decided to see what Mama might do if they tried touching her or holding her. I have to say, she did surprise me in a good way. I thought she might be nervous, having little loud creatures touching her and moving quickly around her, but she was quite calm and actually slithered up the arm of my niece for a while. I got a short video of her calmness. It's only 38 seconds, but it's cute seeing her be so nice to the twins.
My nephew is scared of snakes and I think it helped him see that she isn't going to try to bite or eat him like he kept saying. ;)

YPY4K7S2c3g

[guidofatherof5]

Future garter snake fans. Nice job Chantel

[kibakiba]

Thanks, I enjoy teaching them about my garters. Every time they visit they like coming into my office and looking at the snakes. I never let them touch them before though, but they were younger and squeezed anything they got to hold. They did good with Mama ;)

[kibakiba]

Holding Snappy right now... She's started hissing and puffing herself up when I hold her along with the head flattening and striking. I keep telling her that if she calms down for 5 minutes and stays calm, I'll put her down, but at 4 minutes she spazzes. I know she cant understand me, but I talk to her a lot when I hold her. She's so evil. She's also developing a little red on her eyebrow like area and down he nose. It's cute, but adds to her "demonic" look ;)

[ConcinusMan]

Been a while since I last saw those two. How about some updated pics or short video? I would love to see how they've grown up. Some people constantly post pics and vids of their other snakes but never show any of "my" babies.:(

[kibakiba]

Sure I can make a little video, Snap would probably kill me if I tried taking a picture of her. Ember is different, though. He loves the camera and likes to come up to it. They're packing on the weight and size ;) I'll see if I can get the video soon.

[ConcinusMan]

Use plenty of light please. (but coming from behind or off to the side of the camera) It was hard to see last time.

[kibakiba]

I cant really get light around here. I'll be at my desk with my webcam which picks up brightness all too well. My digital camera is the one with the light problem.
Of course, the problem with the webcam is I have to have The snakes in a container.... And my face will show. I also just got up and I'm too lazy to brush my hair or do anything so mind the looks. Lol. Snap and ember will be looking nice and pretty for you, though!... I just cant get snap to wash her stinky butt ;)

[kibakiba]

Here you go, Richard. My webcams video isn't all that nice, but it's better than my digital camera since it picks up the light. I was also a bit mumbly, I was nervous about putting myself and my voice on youtube :p Aaand... The best thing about Snap, she unleashed a nice big poop for the camera and aimed it inside my keyboard. Hope you enjoy seeing them, cause aside from being able to show you your babies, I hated making the video ;)

ffC65_KXeY0

[guidofatherof5]

Finally a face to the voice. Nice to see you.

[kibakiba]

Thanks. My voice is a bit stronger than that usually, I get high pitched when I talk to people on the phone or mic and camera.

[ConcinusMan]

Finally a face to the voice. Nice to see you.

She did post her pic before Steve. It vanished with the last forum glitch.:cool:

You know, Chantel, you can make the video private so that only people with the link (or this forum where it's embedded) can find it. That way we can watch it here but you won't get all the youtube trolls.

They're looking great. I see that snap retained her lateral stripes very well. Some of them faded quite a bit. Still, after all this time, snap just doesn't want to be touched at all. I can see she hates it. Maybe you should have called her "squirt" haha Thanks for the video.

[kibakiba]

I don't mind trolls, they make me laugh. Besides, I only get about 10 views per video, so I'm not all that concerned... I just don't like the way I look nor do I want people seeing that.

Yeah Snap just hates me. Maybe she'll lighten up when I get my pinkies. She loves pinkies and fish. She would fit that name, wouldn't she? That's what she always does. Hopefully Snap will come to love me and love being touched... Yeah right. ;)

[kibakiba]

I guess I'm eating my words. Snap was even more tame than Mama while I was holding her for the past hour. I've never seen her like this and she made me overjoyed. Even if she's going to be her same mean ol' self tomorrow, at least I have a video of proof that she was a sweetheart if only for an hour.

q4uWyi9ZeG0

[ConcinusMan]

Well on her way and definitely on track to become a very big snake Chantel. My how they've grown.:eek:

[kibakiba]

Yeah, she's tripled in size since I started feeding her lot of pinky parts. Her brother is still almost double her size, she's short and fat though... Kind of like me. :D

[kibakiba]

Ember and Runt shed tonight.
Ember pulled a NASTY trick on me. He musked in his shed. When I was taking out the shed, the whole tank filled with musky smells and it dripped all over my hands and when I dropped it, it splashed on my face. He sat there the whole time as if saying" Hey mom, look at me, I'm all pretty now... Don't mind the musk in my shed... It was just a gift I though you'd like :D"

[PINJOHN]

very much enjoyed the latest update Chantel i agree with Steve it is nice to put a face to a name/post, it makes me feel a little guilty never having done so, if ether of my daughters spot your blue nail varnish i am sure i will be seeing more of it at home.
the snakes looked great roll on the next report.

[kibakiba]

Haha, I mixed two of my blue nail polishes together to make it. One was the perfect colour (very dark sky blue), but too sparkly and the other was too bright and too flat, so now I have two balanced out colours. I love blues. ;)

[kibakiba]

Poor Ember has a mouth infection. I noticed some swelling a week ago, but he was just about to shed so I decided to wait until the skin came off. Once it did, the swelling seemed to go away. Two days ago, I noticed it coming back. There isn't any discolouration, like there was with Thumbelina and Squirt's infections. He was good with his first medicine application yesterday, but today he was pissy. He's usually a big, lovable and floppy snake but today he clung to me, hissed and bit me. I don't blame him... I hate medicine, too.

[guidofatherof5]

Hope it clears up soon.
Keep us posted.

[ConcinusMan]

Sorry to hear that. You know what to do. Start treating it right away, be persistent, and don't stop too early. Keep it up for a week or so after it seems to be healed.

You really gotta do what you can to prevent this. It's most likely a food fight injury. This can happen even after they ate and you put them back together. I know, it's a pain in the... and even doing everything I can, it still happens sometimes to my snakes too. Check their mouths often. The earlier you notice it and treat it, the better the outcome. Good luck.

[Sonya610]

Chantel here is an evil tip; if your mom gives you a hard time about your reptiles......

Casually mention you were at the store today, and the lady behind you had a baby...not just "a" baby...but the most adorable baby ever in a stroller! Smiling and giggling and just so adorable you can't get it out of your mind! You never before realized just how cute babies were and you keep thinking about it!

I am guessing your mom will take a different view regarding your reptiles. : )

[kibakiba]

Well, Sonya... My mom knows I don't like kids. There's room for that in the future, but she also knows my boyfriend and I agreed, no talking about children until I'm 25... Which is fast approaching.. But I have no patience. ;)

Richard, I monitor them closely when they're eating. I've never seen Ember bite, or be bitten. I also keep a close eye on them for up to an hour after feeding to make sure someones not being stupid. These guys act like I starve them if I don't give them a pinky every day, and I don't. Two pinkies a week seems like more than enough for Snap and Ember, though they are almost so big that it seems like I'll be needing to feed them more soon...

[ConcinusMan]

Well I know what you mean. When a snake thinks with his mouth all the time, and isn't afraid to use it, any number of things can go wrong. The inside of their mouths, their teeth, and their "lips" are actually quite delicate. I'm sure if you treat this for a couple of weeks with the medicine I sent, and keep it clean, he'll be fine.

It did work OK for you other snakes? They're all healed up?

And yeah, Ember and Snap look to me like two pinky per meal size now. Or if you think they can handle a fuzzy, maybe they're getting there now. It's in their genes to get really big you know. Look at their mom. Nearly 4 feet and she can take down two adult mice or a rat fuzzies in one meal, no problem!

[kibakiba]

Yeah, but now we have other issues with the other one that got treated, Squirt... She hates me with a burning passion now. Thumbelina seems unaffected by the fact I forced her to open her mouth and have medicine on it twice a day. (her mouth healed, but she's stayed calm) She's about as sweet as can be.

I know what you mean about thinking with their mouths, Mama has been voracious lately. She'll bite anything and everything if I even bring food out. Poor Snakey has been bitten by her when she starts eating, but luckily there's been no injuries.. I let him slither around in my shirt while I'm feeding her.

[ConcinusMan]

I know you see a lot of videos where I'm feeding some snakes together but I know who the trouble makers are and I move them to a tub first.

[kibakiba]

I only feed them together because if I move them, no matter how starving they are, they curl up in a little ball and sit there like I'm going to put them in a stew. I could leave them in a warm, dark area for all of eternity and they'd just sit there. With Mama, as long as I'm not holding her, she'll eat. Snakey will only eat if he's in the tank, so I get Mama out before I feed him, then when he downs his pinky it's straight to my shirt to sleep and feeding time for Mama.

Thumbelina may be the only one who will eat, anywhere. She doesn't care if I'm holding her, if she's in a container, on the floor, on my bed, in my shirt... Haha. All the others get nervous, though.

[ConcinusMan]

oh I know, many of mine won't eat when they've been moved. I was just saying I do pretty much what you were saying. The one's I know are going to cause trouble, I move them to a tub. Then I can feed the others where they are since they aren't too aggressive. When that's done, I can put the trouble makers back one by one and feed them in their tank. I just can't feed the others when the aggressive ones are in the same tank because they're so dang pushy.

Miss piggy will run them all over trying to get the food, and won't give the others a chance. That little pastel checkered from Shannon is the same way. He won't back down to miss piggy either! He's got guts.

[kibakiba]

Oh, that's exactly how Snap is. Thumbelina is too, and she will not back down to anyone. She'll chase Ember around the tank and snap at him if I let her. It's a funny sight, Thumbelina is 6 inches, and Ember is a bit over a foot and a half. He is terrified of her. We got a 20 gal. tank from the thrift store I had been planning to put Snap and Ember in, since they seem too nervous for their own good. However, it's a locked top one, without the top, and my mom bought a 30 gallon snap top, obviously too big... I don't trust it. I can easily see them getting their heads stuck trying to get out.

[ConcinusMan]

Even when you get a top that fits the tank perfectly, you need to get clips for it to hold it on tight, or else set bricks or other heavy object on top. Also if you'll notice, the slide lock tanks have plastic tabs. They don't last long and end up wearing out and breaking or failing to lock.

[kibakiba]

I've had my slide lock top tank for 3.5 years with no problems. It locks just as if I got it yesterday. The used one is all cracked and had bunches of tape all over it.

I do plan on using the tank I got, it's just my mom needs to stop buying 30-50 gallon tops, saying she'll modify it. Everything she "modifies" ends up breaking within a day. Really, if you tell her 20 gallon tank top, she'll buy a bird cage, if you tell her coho salmon, she'll buy some fish I've never hear of. She only goes shopping in the morning, which is when I go to bed so I cant go get it myself... And the bank card is hers and I cant use it without her there.

[ConcinusMan]

Don't even go by gallons. The tops I've seen for sale don't even do that. They are sold by dimensions because that's the only thing that matters. The top doesn't care how tall, or how much capacity the tank is. For example, a common standard 10 gallon tank is 24X12 inches and a 20 gallon long (like the reptile tanks) is 30X12 inches but if those tanks were taller, and therefore more gallons, the tops would still fit. I don't know who else sells them, but petco has clips for just a couple of dollars that hold these tops on. You cannot get by without them, or else you have to put something heavy on both ends of the top which sucks for placing lights on top.

Here's a useful link for tank sizes. Comes in very handy if you want to know how many gallons a tank holds. As long as it's not custom, you measure it and find the gallons here: Chart of Tank Sizes (http://www.thekrib.com/TankHardware/size-chart.html)

Not that us reptile people care how many gallons it holds. What mainly matters is floor space dimensions. Don't tell mom "20 gallon" tell her 30X12 inches. They're way cheaper online though. Even after shipping they are only half as much money as pet stores charge. Petco charges $25 for 24X12 top. Online they are about $12 shipped.

[kibakiba]

She does have the dimensions of it, she doesn't bother with it, though. If you knew her you would understand how she is. She really doesn't pay attention to anything you give her until the 20th time she fails at getting it. We don't have a petco here. We have a no name pet store. They're all about being fancy pretty much. They have the right top at 15 dollars, we might as well go pick it up because we already need to grab some stuff from the store.

[ConcinusMan]

Well maybe they sell the clips too. You just bend to adjust them, then they clamp the screen to the underside edge of the frame, nice and tight. Need at least one on each end.

[kibakiba]

Snap has snapped. She tried to rip Ember and Runt to shreds for no reason. I have her separated from all of them. She was striking, biting and hissing. I've never seen her act that mean. Richard, are you absolutely sure that she's a concinnus? She acts like an infernalis! My mom was in the room and when she turned to leave, Snap struck at the glass about 10 times within a few seconds. She also appears to have a little mouth infection. I guess that's where Ember got his. With how she's acting, I wouldnt be surprised if she bit him just because... I haven't fed them in a week, and I've only noticed the infection come up a couple days ago. It's feeding day, so after I let ember and Snap calm down a bit I'lll clean their mouths and hope to god Snap won't bite. She's big and her teeth are even bigger than they were last time she bit me. That time hurt, I cant imagine how she'll be now... Hah.
Every time I so much as blink, she goes in a little cobra pose and strikes.

[ConcinusMan]

That's weird. Are you sure she's not getting too warm?

[kibakiba]

It's actually been a bit cold in my room. I've been keeping my heater off because I've been exercising more often and it gets too hot for me if my heater makes it over 80 in my room. With their lamps the warm spot isn't more than 70 to 80 degrees, cool side is 60 to 70.

[kibakiba]

I wanted to give a little update on all of my snakes...

Mama and Snakey both went off food, I don't think they like not being able to "do stuff" whenever they want. :D Snap and Ember are growing like weeds, Snap is quite girthy and Ember is a little chubby, but makes up for that in sheer length. He's larger than Snakey now!
Thumbelina is a boy, but his name shall remain the same... :D I'm so cruel to the little guy :p Squirt hates my guts, she flattens her head, waves it around... Ocassionally she'll do that with her mouth open, but she never bites. Runt has gone back to being skittish, but calms down immediately when you pick her up. She's just the sweetest little thing.

The twins smashed a snail, so I figured 'd rinse it off and treat my snakes to a treat. I wanted to give it to Snap, but she grabbed it and went under the substrate with it, luckily she let it go. She didn't want it after that, so I gave it to Ember. I have never seen him flip out over food like that. It took him a little while to get it down with all the squirming that it did, but after he was done... He wanted more :D He was rubbing his nose all over the glass, nipping me and searching. It wasn't feeding time for anyone yet, but A treat never hurt anyone. ;)

My new babies are growing fast, little Pumpkin is almost the size of my August babies. Well, maybe not, but she's catching up to them really fast. The little runt of the bunch caught up in size, and you almost cant even tell who was the runt. If you look hard, you can see his head size is just slightly smaller that the rest of them. I have a couple e pictures of them compared to a pencil... They were taken a while ago, over a month, I believe. It shows just how tiny the babies are. They aren't any bigger than my thumb when coiled up.
They're all eating like pigs and love their unscented pinky parts. It's funny, Specks or Spots (they're twins now) like worms sometimes.... The rest are terrified of them. If I put a cut up and non-moving piece in front of them, they immediately coil up and put their tail over their heads. If I put a moving piece in front of them they do a little cobra impression with their heads flat, strike then take off :D

[guidofatherof5]

Thanks for the update.
Sounds like a nice crew of scrubs.

[kibakiba]

Indeed they are. I wish they would eat worms, though. When we have fish, I like to have them eating all 3 because of the variety part of it. Maybe you'll be able to get them eating right :D They wont listen to me, but maybe if you tell them to eat their "vegetables", they'll do it! ;)

[kibakiba]

We lost little Squirt today. I was doing my weekly "run around in the grass" thing with my snakes, and I when I blinked, Squirt disappeared into the grass. She had been out for about 10 minutes, each time I got close to her she flattened her head, puffed up really big and nose bumped my feet or hand. I might sound mean, cruel or unloving when I say this, but I'm not sad. I love her with all my heart, but I really believe she'll be able to survive. She's definitely got the instincts. She always has. She was found in my yard perhaps a week or 2 after she was born, so at least she didn't disappear in a different area. We looked for her for about 30 minutes, but she's a quick little girl.

I do hope she'll be okay, or maybe she'll turn up if I look in a while.

[kibakiba]

I'm starting to feel bad and a bit upset now, Squirt was a good snake (even with the attitude)

I don't really care if I'm over anthropomorphising my snakes, but Thumbelina has been searching around the tank since Squirt went missing. He also started acting really shy, when he see's me, he coils up and puts his tail over his head. He used to be quite bold, I could wave my hand in front of him and softly poke his nose and he's just climb onto my hands as if it didn't happen.
I want to do out and search more, even it it'd be a lost cause, but I've been sick all day. It was stupid of me to go out while sick, but I wouldn't have done it this week if I hadn't today.

[guidofatherof5]

Sorry to hear about Squirt getting away.
Tough as nails they are and very resilient.
I hope she returns to you.

[d_virginiana]

That's too bad about your snake getting away.. From what you said though, she sounds like a pretty spirited snake, so she'll probably be just fine. Plus, if you found her in your yard, there's a good chance you'll see her hanging around your house in the future. Hope you get her back, but if not try not to worry about it too much.

[kibakiba]

Yeah, she had eaten a couple days before getting away, so it should hold her off while she tries to figure out how to hunt, since food isn't being pushed in her face.

I'm going to miss her little tunnel eating method next feeding.

[kibakiba]

Mama has been slowing down lately and refusing to eat a normal amount. She's lost a little bit of weight. I truly hope she's okay, I can't handle another loss of a loved snake. I am really worried about her. There is just something in her eyes that doesn't look right. I don't mean like an eye infection, but she just doesn't look as bold as she normally looks.

[guidofatherof5]

I hope she's just in an off food time.
I have some that slow down then go off food for awhile.
Keep us posted.

[kibakiba]

I hope so, too. She's still pretty young. She can't be more than 4 years old, she was still fairly small when I got her. She's never slowed down like this, even when she's gone without food for a month. She's a strong little snake, though. She's getting pampered with lots of room visits where she can sleep in my blankets while I'm doing paperwork, and the luxury of a few soft hides in her tank.

I also switched her into the tank with Runt and Thumbelina. There is a big size difference, but Snap is having her spazz attacks again and I need to keep her in her own tank, I'm actually scared she'll hurt Mama. I moved her into the 15 gallon where Snakey and Ember were, moved the boys into the tank Mama and Snap were in and put Mama with Runt and Thumbelina. They all seem to enjoy the company, all 3 of them were snuggled together within a matter of minutes.

[kibakiba]

Mama went back to normal after I got Pumpkin back, and now her belly is turning a pale blue... So she should be shedding soon...


My mom found this little guy before we found pumpkin, she thought it might have been her. The little one was pretty beat up and was having trouble breathing. She seemed to have something wrong with her neck, also. I wanted to help her, but I ended up letting her go after giving her some water and a worm.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/Injured2.jpg
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/Neck.jpghttp://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/Injured.jpg


She looks about a year old, just a little bit bigger than Thumbelina (born in August)

[guidofatherof5]

She looks like her neck and throat are swollen.
Might be some kind of infection.;)

[kibakiba]

Yeah, I didn't want to put her with my other babies and risk spreading anything to them, and I kind of already knew that I had no way of helping her. She was a sweet little thing, though. She looked a bit like a light coloured version of Squirt.

[katach]

Beautiful snakes!! Welcome to the family!!

[kibakiba]

Mama shed and is looking so beautiful. Snap did too, but she wont let me get a picture.I'm going to just let her be. I also got a new buddy for Frogger. It played dead when I put it in the tank, but I've seen them do that before, so I misted him, and he snapped out of it. I don't know Frogger or the new guys gender, but I think they're females... But shall remain "him" for now ;)
I'll get the pictures of Mama and the new guy uploaded later today. It's my boyfriends birthday, so he comes first. :D

[kibakiba]

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/Hades.JPG

[RedSidedSPR]

Nice! That the new guy?

[ConcinusMan]

That's a handsome 3 striper.

[kibakiba]

Yeah, that's Hades.

Richard, all of the NWs here are 3 stripers. I've never seen a 1 stripe NW.

[ConcinusMan]

Huh. Interesting. We have both.

[Didymus20X6]

http://i55.tinypic.com/fdsg0p.jpg

[kibakiba]

0n-J0J0doRM
The poking I was doing on him, was because he started pulling, the poke made him stop pulling. And sorry it was blurry.

[RedSidedSPR]

Dang...

[kibakiba]

You can tell he loves me :D

[RedSidedSPR]

Oh yeah, without a doubt. Definitely.

[kibakiba]

He's a good boy. He's nice, but not always. If I hold him every day, he stops, if I leave him alone for a couple days, all hell breaks loose.

[ConcinusMan]

Freaking psychotic snake!

[kibakiba]

But, that's why I love him! He wont get as big as Snap, so he'll never do much damage.